What if Bitcoinica requires identification for all customers?

[Mushoz]

Mushoz: if you deem it acceptable that they change their ToS, and they declare to change them even further (no deadlines, no indications yet) as long as they don't steal your money, then you have very very low expectations as a customer. "You are free to just not use the service" yeah, I take all the time wasted in it with me though. I'm on my second account now, expecting to take all my coins off it soon in light of the changes.

I guess you are a very good consumer for whatever services you have contracted, just happy to have ANY ToS change as long as they don't steal money from you directly. You can always stop using the service, huh?

http://youtu.be/qd8hy032uLc

I can't force a company to go a certain way I want the company to go. If a change in their ToS doesn't negatively affect me beyond me not willing to use their service anymore, I can live with that. Then they've just lost a customer, and I'll go looking for a company does offer what I want. You have to remember I don't _want_ them to change the ToS to one I don't like, but I can't _demand_ them not to. All I can do is take my business elsewhere.

Sure, sure. But I don't have to like it and I can also post here that this will drive me off bitcoinica as a customer. Zhoutong will have to ponder if it's worth it for him or not, it's a trade-off like any other. In this trade-off list he'll have to add the risk of a knock-off coming out without these restrictions. So far there is no incentive for it. There will be and we will be able to estimate more or less how many users one would be instantly be able to steal from bitcoinica just on these grounds.

I wish him luck and I suspect he'll make more money by going into a full-fledged, official financial services provider. If things work for him, of course.

You're reading too much into my posts if you think I'm demanding anything. I'm expressing that I wish he didn't do it, and if he does it then I will be off bitcoinica (I try to give my personal information away the least I possibly can - to justify it I'd have to expect massive gains, and I don't see them happening in bitcoinica with the risks I'm willing to take at this moment).

Zhoutong reads this forum and I guess he prefers to know as accurately as possible how many of us will leave his service when he does this, instead of parroting good wishes and then f**** off with our money when the moment arrives.

In my case this is not about being positive or negative. It's about being realistic. I wish him luck, but when I think his service is not worth the risk for me (as in, my ID being stolen for instance) then I will take my coins and leave. As we say around here: "simples."

Ahh, sorry, I misunderstood you then. You indeed have the right to be unhappy and state that here. But still, I think this will be good for both Zhoutong himself and Bitcoin in general in the long run, so the choice is only logical. And that's why I "deem it acceptable that they change their ToS, and they declare to change them even further (no deadlines, no indications yet) as long as they don't steal your money". Even though I might not like certain changes, I find them acceptable the way he is doing it, which is all what matters in allowing them to change the rules. If I don't like them, I can state that here and leave, but that's all I can do.

I see the current changes as something positive for Bitcoin in the long run, so I currently have no plans of leaving Bitcoinica anywhere in the near future.

[pirateat40]

At this point if Bitcoinica requires verification's to trade and withdraw funds I'll be pulling everything out of Bitcoinica and wait for Mt. Gox's solution or another service.

My two cents... spend them wisely. 

[Mushoz]

At this point if Bitcoinica requires verification's to trade and withdraw funds I'll be pulling everything out of Bitcoinica and wait for Mt. Gox's solution or another service.

My two cents... spend them wisely. 

Ouch, aren't you the guy with 300k+ BTC volume a month? How much of that is on Bitcoinica? That might actually put a decent dent in their profits...

[pirateat40]

At this point if Bitcoinica requires verification's to trade and withdraw funds I'll be pulling everything out of Bitcoinica and wait for Mt. Gox's solution or another service.

My two cents... spend them wisely. 

Ouch, aren't you the guy with 300k+ BTC volume a month? How much of that is on Bitcoinica? That might actually put a decent dent in their profits...

Regardless of my actions it won't change how they move forward, I'm just commenting on what my intentions are when they do.

[Mushoz]

At this point if Bitcoinica requires verification's to trade and withdraw funds I'll be pulling everything out of Bitcoinica and wait for Mt. Gox's solution or another service.

My two cents... spend them wisely. 

Ouch, aren't you the guy with 300k+ BTC volume a month? How much of that is on Bitcoinica? That might actually put a decent dent in their profits...

Regardless of my actions it won't change how they move forward, I'm just commenting on what my intentions are when they do.

I know, but I'm just interested Of course, if you prefer to keep that data private, that's understandable
But I figured since you already mentioned you have 300k+ BTC volume months, you wouldn't mind such a question. Just to find out if Bitcoinica is losing a big part of their volume by losing you.

[miscreanity]

This is nothing against Zhou or Bitcoinica in general - I think the platform and service have been put together & run quite well, providing a quality service. Sadly, we are all at the mercy of a belligerent system that is creating dangerously volatile conditions. Return of capital really is much more important now than return on capital.

Some potentials from best to worst, assuming you have funds with Bitcoinica:

• Services relocates and doesn't require identifying information
• No information required for Bitcoin-only transfers (trading still available)
• Nothing bad happens after information submission
• Taxation pressure exerted on identifiable users
• Bitcoinica is locked out from transactions by financial partners
• Funds are frozen/confiscated pending information submittal
• As above, but funds remain unavailable even after information presented
• Bitcoinica is raided and everything is seized no matter where the user is from

Considering both the wealth preservation capability of Bitcoin as well as the growth potential for even 1% usage of Bitcoin within System D, each BTC could eventually become worth nearly $5,000 or more in 2012 USD. I'm not leaving that on the table.

Personally, I find only the first two possibilities acceptable (that risk profile is overwhelmingly negative), so I'm converting everything to BTC and withdrawing to a secured wallet until further information becomes available. This is similar to the difference between holding a hundred ounces of gold in your direct physical possession vs. having it tied up as a COMEX contract (especially like the ones stolen in the MF Global fiasco). That way, I'm protected and can always jump back in. I'd rather be out early than too late.

[zhoutong]

We will give you a plenty of time before the deadline. We announce this change early because we want to know the community's feelings towards this change.

Unfortunately, we find being regulated as a financial services provider with specific licenses to issue loans, exchange currencies, pay interests on deposits and issue means of payments much more important than making short-term profits.

It's totally understandable that some people are not willing to submit IDs before more details are posted. But I can assure you that you will have at least 30 days before we suspend trading, and you can withdraw any time until 90 days after the "deadline".

All the legal solutions are in-house. We have bank-like functions so Bitcoinica USD account can be segregated. So your funds are always protected.

[miscreanity]

It's totally understandable that some people are not willing to submit IDs before more details are posted.

there is no details on earth that will make some ppl submit their ID's, giving away the anonymity because there is a KYC law bahh just find a place where you dont need that crap

Everyone has their own criteria. Where else is there a service offering leveraged trading (including shorting) for Bitcoin?

[pirateat40]

It's totally understandable that some people are not willing to submit IDs before more details are posted.

there is no details on earth that will make some ppl submit their ID's, giving away the anonymity because there is a KYC law bahh just find a place where you dont need that crap

Everyone has their own criteria. Where else is there a service offering leveraged trading (including shorting) for Bitcoin?

It might be time for Pirate Industries to get into the trading platform sector. 

[Qoheleth]

But I can assure you that you will have at least 30 days before we suspend trading, and you can withdraw any time until 90 days after the "deadline".

Earlier you said that a lack of ID would not in any way prevent withdrawls.

signature changed because you at the end you will force users to send ID's

We won't freeze accounts. Everyone will be able to withdraw regardless of verification status. You're safe to continue trading until we announce further details.

Did you change your mind? If someone without ID has been trading on Bitcoinica for a while, then leaves for a few months and misses all this, might they come back to find they have no recourse for getting their coins?

Or am I reading this "90 day grace period" wrong?

[zhoutong]

But I can assure you that you will have at least 30 days before we suspend trading, and you can withdraw any time until 90 days after the "deadline".

Earlier you said that a lack of ID would not in any way prevent withdrawls.

signature changed because you at the end you will force users to send ID's

We won't freeze accounts. Everyone will be able to withdraw regardless of verification status. You're safe to continue trading until we announce further details.

Did you change your mind? If someone without ID has been trading on Bitcoinica for a while, then leaves for a few months and misses all this, might they come back to find they have no recourse for getting their coins?

Or am I reading this "90 day grace period" wrong?

We will try to contact them before the deadline.

[Raoul Duke]

It might be time for Pirate Industries to get into the trading platform sector. 

You'll need the before starting such business.
Imagine Paraipan going to the spanish police to file a complaint against a "Pirate"...
Now that would be something!

[ineededausername]

It's totally understandable that some people are not willing to submit IDs before more details are posted.

there is no details on earth that will make some ppl submit their ID's, giving away the anonymity because there is a KYC law bahh just find a place where you dont need that crap

Everyone has their own criteria. Where else is there a service offering leveraged trading (including shorting) for Bitcoin?

It might be time for Pirate Industries to get into the trading platform sector. 

that would be insanely awesome!  You could beat zhou's interest rates by >100 times as your first feature