Armory Crowdfunding Finished! [UPDATE - *BETA*]

[ptshamrock]

ist this included in armory?  can`t find it ? is this in the default design?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24784.80


thx

[1714186800]

1714186800

[1714186800]

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[1714186800]

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[fornit]

ist this included in armory?  can`t find it ? is this in the default design?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24784.80


thx

Short-term development plans:

[...]
 Customizable SelectCoins algorithm: optimize for anonymity or minimal transaction fees.

[etotheipi]

Solid work.

How about supporting Wallet Import Format like the one used in bitwallet.org? that'd be nice to have IMO.

Muyuu,

I have intentionally avoided wallet importing because of all sorts of weird and nasty things that can happen when two programs are using the same wallet.  I'd prefer if users starts new wallets and transfer coins to them.  However, that doesnt' mean I'll never allow it, I just want to prevent users from shooting themselves in the foot right now, and I'll work on wallet import (with appropriate built-in precautions), later.

ist this included in armory?  can`t find it ? is this in the default design?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24784.80

thx

I had plans to do something like that, eventually, but it's low on my priority list.  On the other hand, my code base is setup to pretty easily allow one to quickly see what addresses have money and select or deselect addresses to be used to fund a given transaction.  So, I guess I could bump it up in priority given that I'm well-prepared for it  Either way, I gotta fix the RAM issue first, and then I'll think about stuff like this.  

Short-term development plans:

[...]
 Customizable SelectCoins algorithm: optimize for anonymity or minimal transaction fees.

This is actually a different kind of anonymity.  It doesn't include or exclude specific addresses, it only optimizes the coin selection to use(/link) as few input addresses as possible, make the outputs look indistinguishable, and minimize tx fee.  It's already built into the Armory codebase, I just need to set up an options page so that users can specify their preference.  But this wouldn't replace the full-scale anonymity feature.

[muyuu]

Solid work.

How about supporting Wallet Import Format like the one used in bitwallet.org? that'd be nice to have IMO.

Muyuu,

I have intentionally avoided wallet importing because of all sorts of weird and nasty things that can happen when two programs are using the same wallet.  I'd prefer if users starts new wallets and transfer coins to them.  However, that doesnt' mean I'll never allow it, I just want to prevent users from shooting themselves in the foot right now, and I'll work on wallet import (with appropriate built-in precautions), later.

I understand why, but Armory would be even more useful if it could also manage non-Armory wallets (or just pubkey/privkey pairs). You could distinguish these clearly in the GUI.

The current situation is that you cannot migrate your coins to Armory without using something else other than Armory. Say I had just created an address with a local javascript bitwallet (because that was the only thing available at that point) and now I want to send this to one of my Armory wallets. Simply can't without some other software/trusting some website to have that pubkey for a bit at least (and immediately losing that address as well).

IMO this should be pretty high in your priority list, just give it a thought

[fornit]

when you ask for features like that dont forget that are very few people out there that have that problem but any number of people that cant use armory because of the ram requirements or wont use it because it lacks very basic features like an address book.

[fornit]

Well, I would choose to use Armory for exactly one reason, offline transactions. This is, by far, the most important feature of Armory, in my opinion. I'm sure I will find the other features useful, of course, but for me personally, they would not be enough of a reason to make the switch.

So, I already have offline Satoshi wallets as deep secure storage. In order to take advantages of Armory's amazing security feature, offline transactions, I have to take my already existing secure offline wallets and put them on an internet connected, and possibly compromised, computer. Do you see the problem? I have to nullify my previous security measures in order to implement the security feature which entices me to use Armory in the first place.

i am guessing 99,5% of all users lie between those having 50k btc unencrypted on a rented virtual machine and those who woudnt ever connect to the network with their savings wallet. not to mention this is only relevant for people already having an offline solution in place not for those who start using this features with armory for the first time.

[muyuu]

Well, I would choose to use Armory for exactly one reason, offline transactions. This is, by far, the most important feature of Armory, in my opinion. I'm sure I will find the other features useful, of course, but for me personally, they would not be enough of a reason to make the switch.

So, I already have offline Satoshi wallets as deep secure storage. In order to take advantages of Armory's amazing security feature, offline transactions, I have to take my already existing secure offline wallets and put them on an internet connected, and possibly compromised, computer. Do you see the problem? I have to nullify my previous security measures in order to implement the security feature which entices me to use Armory in the first place.

i am guessing 99,5% of all users lie between those having 50k btc unencrypted on a rented virtual machine and those who woudnt ever connect to the network with their savings wallet. not to mention this is only relevant for people already having an offline solution in place not for those who start using this features with armory for the first time.

The RAM problem looks like a hard one. The address book thing looks simple (not that I need this at all). This other feature looks relatively simple and extremely useful.

Eto will have to make his own prioritisation. I'll try to take some time off to check his code and maybe contribute something... I have a big task list as is already, though.

[cypherdoc]

when you ask for features like that dont forget that are very few people out there that have that problem but any number of people that cant use armory because of the ram requirements or wont use it because it lacks very basic features like an address book.

Well, I would choose to use Armory for exactly one reason, offline transactions. This is, by far, the most important feature of Armory, in my opinion. I'm sure I will find the other features useful, of course, but for me personally, they would not be enough of a reason to make the switch.

So, I already have offline Satoshi wallets as deep secure storage. In order to take advantages of Armory's amazing security feature, offline transactions, I have to take my already existing secure offline wallets and put them on an internet connected, and possibly compromised, computer. Do you see the problem? I have to nullify my previous security measures in order to implement the security feature which entices me to use Armory in the first place.

1+

There are alot of us in this situation with air gapped savings wallets that want to import to armory without connecting to internet and this is because I want to make a paper backup in addition to just digital backups I have on USB sticks.  Not to mention all of armorys other features.

[Rassah]

How possible is it to have the Armoury have its own block chain file? Basically, have one that was pruned as much as possible of old fully spent transactions, so as to keep it small in memory, have other Armory clients only download and share this smaller block chain, and have an option so that if anyone wants to, they can verify their pruned block chain against the full Satoshi client one? This will help with the memory problem, get things started on pruning the block chain, and since all the block chain files are shared by everyone within the Armoury network, just one or two people comparing their data to the "outside" will make sure it's all legit.
It will also help Satoshi client to migrate, since right now there's no way to switch to a pruned block chain (it doesn't exist within Satoshi network), but if pruned Armoury gets established, Satoshi client will be able to give you an option as to which block chain network to hook into.

[Otoh]

just discovered this thread so watching & looking forward to trying Armory out, re the name I had heard of The Armory first so also was curious if there was some connection (Re: Armory: Cold Storage for the Average User! - hmm are they offering to cryonicise your AK-47s with you now or what?), having read most of the thread I know that there isn't - well from the OP I know that, but am not surprised that karma or whatever made the match in names as most peep's first word association with an armory is guns, a place to store guns & weapons - the fact that armories are mostly well protected & hopefully secure is very much secondary in people's minds & the fact that body armor or passive defense stuff may be in it even less so, I don't think it's a big deal that a headline grabbing illegal weapons dealing Bitcoin Tor site has chosen almost the same name but more that as someone else pointed out Armory is not really a good name choice for a secure offline wallet for non geeks, it associates too much in peep's minds with guns & ammo, that will put some folks off & confuse others

much better as someone also mentioned, vault - as in the excellent BullionVault online service for physical PMs, so how about BitcoinVault if it's available (just checked, the .com - it's parked so open for offers I expect, I'd have bought it for you if it was unregistered, though I was expecting for sure it wouldn't be free), anyway though it's not crucial I think that a much better name could be found while this project is still relatively early stages (acknowledging the enormous amount of great work that you've already put in to it, but expecting this to really be a long term Bitcoin winner) & also I like the idea of a poll thread for that with suggestions & voting with you picking one or choosing your own after getting that feedback

also could go non proper word as you said, like Bitcoinica does or Mt. Gox, Bicos Wallets say, BItcoin COld Storage Wallets

[Indemnified]

just discovered this thread so watching & looking forward to trying Armory out, re the name I had heard of The Armory first so also was curious if there was some connection (Re: Armory: Cold Storage for the Average User! - hmm are they offering to cryonicise your AK-47s with you now or what?), having read most of the thread I know that there isn't - well from the OP I know that, but am not surprised that karma or whatever made the match in names as most peep's first word association with an armory is guns, a place to store guns & weapons - the fact that armories are mostly well protected & hopefully secure is very much secondary in people's minds & the fact that body armor or passive defense stuff may be in it even less so, I don't think it's a big deal that a headline grabbing illegal weapons dealing Bitcoin Tor site has chosen almost the same name but more that as someone else pointed out Armory is not really a good name choice for a secure offline wallet for non geeks, it associates too much in peep's minds with guns & ammo, that will put some folks off & confuse others

much better as someone also mentioned, vault - as in the excellent BullionVault online service for physical PMs, so how about BitcoinVault if it's available (just checked, the .com - it's parked so open for offers I expect, I'd have bought it for you if it was unregistered, though I was expecting for sure it wouldn't be free), anyway though it's not crucial I think that a much better name could be found while this project is still relatively early stages (acknowledging the enormous amount of great work that you've already put in to it, but expecting this to really be a long term Bitcoin winner) & also I like the idea of a poll thread for that with suggestions & voting with you picking one or choosing your own after getting that feedback

also could go non proper word as you said, like Bitcoinica does or Mt. Gox, Bicos Wallets say, BItcoin COld Storage Wallets

I didn't see any new donations to the project. Do you have any skin in the game?

[etotheipi]

Finally hit the $3k mark!  Sure, I don't think I can make the full $12k, but $3k is certainly enough to make a difference here.  And I'll be getting an article on BitcoinMedia soon, so that will hopefully draw in some folks not on the forums   If not, I may have to commit to using a large chunk of unpaid leave instead of actually going part-time... nonetheless, any full-day chunks of time I can spend on Armory while the house is empty is when I make the most substantial progress...

So there's a lot to respond to here... amazing what accumulates over the course of one day!

@ Muyuu, Holliday & Cypherdoc,

Armory wallets are completely different than Satoshi-client wallets, and for a very good reason:  the Satoshi-client wallets are terrible.  They require a DB engine, which requires an extra library, and the DB itself is what was responsible for the wallet-not-actually-encrypted bug.  Supporting Satoshi wallets is a step backwards, and a substantial time investment.  Not to mention, there has been some talk recently among the devs of switching away from the current Satoshi wallet format -- so I feel like it's not worth it. 

However, I will support migration.  I will leverage Joric's pywallet tool to help pull all the private keys out and import them into an Armory wallet.  It's the best I can do amidst my priorities.

In the meantime, the thing stopping users from manually doing this, is the lack of a bulk-import feature in Armory.  It was already part of my RAM-upgrade, but that's not going to be done for a while (but will be necessary when it takes 30s per address import).   Until then, I can probably put together a super-quick python script that will simply import a list of private keys in a specified Armory wallet -- then the determined users can use Joric's pywallet to dump the private keys.  Or maybe I will send that script to Joric:  maybe he would be up for making an import tool like this...


@ Rassah

This is something I've thought about, but there are a lot of risks associated with holding a pruned blockchain.  I believe it will have to be done eventually, but that there will also be a network-level accommodation for it:  such as including unspent-tx-out-tree-hashes in the coinbase transactions, so that nodes can verify their pruned blockchains against other nodes.  I am wholly in support of such a scheme if it can be made to work, but I feel like there's going to be a big paradigm shift to make this doable in Armory without it (and maintain a high confidence in the security of the application)

Regardless, I don't see this as a solution to the RAM problem, because I don't want to bank on the pruned blockchain taking up less RAM than some arbitrary system.  One day Armory works, the next day someone creates a ton of unspent outputs and Armory won't load anymore.    I have a solution for the RAM issue (without pruning), that I have already confirmed works in Linux, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in Windows.  I just have to get a solid chunk of time to get it all implemented, debugged, and tested.  It'll be a couple weeks.

@ Otoh

It's easy to say in hindsight I should've picked a different name.  Sure, the word "Armory" has different initial impressions to different people, but in the end it was concise, unique, memorable, and held some meaning related to what I wanted.  Just like "Google" (googol) or "Oracle", one day it just becomes a name, instead of a common word doubling as a name. 

@ Indeminfied

Lol.  Thanks for your actual donation, and bullying others to donate, as well.  Perhaps you can be the official bouncer for this thread

[muyuu]

Finally hit the $3k mark!  Sure, I don't think I can make the full $12k, but $3k is certainly enough to make a difference here.  And I'll be getting an article on BitcoinMedia soon, so that will hopefully draw in some folks not on the forums   If not, I may have to commit to using a large chunk of unpaid leave instead of actually going part-time... nonetheless, any full-day chunks of time I can spend on Armory while the house is empty is when I make the most substantial progress...

So there's a lot to respond to here... amazing what accumulates over the course of one day!

@ Muyuu, Holliday & Cypherdoc,

Armory wallets are completely different than Satoshi-client wallets, and for a very good reason:  the Satoshi-client wallets are terrible.  They require a DB engine, which requires an extra library, and the DB itself is what was responsible for the wallet-not-actually-encrypted bug.  Supporting Satoshi wallets is a step backwards, and a substantial time investment.  Not to mention, there has been some talk recently among the devs of switching away from the current Satoshi wallet format -- so I feel like it's not worth it. 

However, I will support migration.  I will leverage Joric's pywallet tool to help pull all the private keys out and import them into an Armory wallet.  It's the best I can do amidst my priorities.

In the meantime, the thing stopping users from manually doing this, is the lack of a bulk-import feature in Armory.  It was already part of my RAM-upgrade, but that's not going to be done for a while (but will be necessary when it takes 30s per address import).   Until then, I can probably put together a super-quick python script that will simply import a list of private keys in a specified Armory wallet -- then the determined users can use Joric's pywallet to dump the private keys.  Or maybe I will send that script to Joric:  maybe he would be up for making an import tool like this...

Got my BTC 10?

Hi Etotheipi, I know roughly how Satoshi wallets work (just peeked in the code) and I know yours are fundamentally different. I didn't ask you to support them, but rather to support using pub/priv key pairs and allow to make transactions with these, outside of full Armory-wallets. The main idea would be sending coins from addresses outside of Armory wallets (to keep it simple, just allow sending anywhere). Your wallets are a lot better, for several reasons.

Instead of importing addresses into an Armory wallet - I reckon these generate keys in a deterministic sequence? - I was actually asking for something in the lines of what you just said. However if it has to be done via scripts that won't work for many people (I will be fine with this personally tho) and it's an important hurdle in the adoption of your client.

[etotheipi]

Got my BTC 10?

Yup, I'll be sending you the encryption seminar shortly.  And please email me with an address if you want a T-shirt or USB key.  I will be getting them made and distributed after the funding period is over.

However if it has to be done via scripts that won't work for many people (I will be fine with this personally tho) and it's an important hurdle in the adoption of your client.

I totally agree with you on this.  I only proposed the script as a temporary solution for the really-determined folks until I can get something integrated into the UI.  The script is probably 10 lines of python.  But integrating Pywallet and bulk-import into a nice, pleasant, bug-free interface is considerably more lines of code

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

when you ask for features like that dont forget that are very few people out there that have that problem but any number of people that cant use armory because of the ram requirements or wont use it because it lacks very basic features like an address book.

Well, I would choose to use Armory for exactly one reason, offline transactions. This is, by far, the most important feature of Armory, in my opinion. I'm sure I will find the other features useful, of course, but for me personally, they would not be enough of a reason to make the switch.

So, I already have offline Satoshi wallets as deep secure storage. In order to take advantages of Armory's amazing security feature, offline transactions, I have to take my already existing secure offline wallets and put them on an internet connected, and possibly compromised, computer. Do you see the problem? I have to nullify my previous security measures in order to implement the security feature which entices me to use Armory in the first place.

You do, I agree (I had to do the same recently), however they're only online long enough for you to plug in the new Armory address, amount, and hit send, so a minute at the most.   Sure something could be done in that time, but it's not super likely I wouldn't have thought.

Can't hurt asking anyway

[fornit]

if you have the private key of course you can import it. 
wallet properties -> import private key
copy/paste the key, then select second option "import this address" -> done.

[etotheipi]

if you have the private key of course you can import it. 
wallet properties -> import private key
copy/paste the key, then select second option "import this address" -> done.

Silly me. Still it would be useful to have an "import Satoshi wallet" button, for us non-technical users. Now I'm off to learn about extracting keys from Satoshi wallets. 

Your best bet is Joric's PyWallet.  About a month ago, Joric figured out the Satoshi wallet encryption, and released an update that will extract the keys if you enter the encryption passphrase.  I've used it once or twice, and it's pretty slick.  You can use it as a command-line tool, or you can run it in server mode, and access it via a nice web interface by putting "localhost:8989" into your browser. 

The biggest issue is that you're probably going to get a lot of keys dumped out, so you have to know which one is the right one.  Luckily with the full-RAM Armory, checking the balance of a fresh address takes less than 1 sec!  The copy&paste procedure will be the bottleneck (at least until I get a bulk-import UI).

[ptshamrock]

Solid work.

How about supporting Wallet Import Format like the one used in bitwallet.org? that'd be nice to have IMO.

Muyuu,

I have intentionally avoided wallet importing because of all sorts of weird and nasty things that can happen when two programs are using the same wallet.  I'd prefer if users starts new wallets and transfer coins to them.  However, that doesnt' mean I'll never allow it, I just want to prevent users from shooting themselves in the foot right now, and I'll work on wallet import (with appropriate built-in precautions), later.

ist this included in armory?  can`t find it ? is this in the default design?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=24784.80

thx

I had plans to do something like that, eventually, but it's low on my priority list.  On the other hand, my code base is setup to pretty easily allow one to quickly see what addresses have money and select or deselect addresses to be used to fund a given transaction.  So, I guess I could bump it up in priority given that I'm well-prepared for it  Either way, I gotta fix the RAM issue first, and then I'll think about stuff like this.  

Short-term development plans:

[...]
 Customizable SelectCoins algorithm: optimize for anonymity or minimal transaction fees.

This is actually a different kind of anonymity.  It doesn't include or exclude specific addresses, it only optimizes the coin selection to use(/link) as few input addresses as possible, make the outputs look indistinguishable, and minimize tx fee.  It's already built into the Armory codebase, I just need to set up an options page so that users can specify their preference.  But this wouldn't replace the full-scale anonymity feature.

THANKS A BUNCH FOR THE ANSWERS!

[Otoh]

just discovered this thread so watching & looking forward to trying Armory out, re the name I had heard of The Armory first so also was curious if there was some connection (Re: Armory: Cold Storage for the Average User! - hmm are they offering to cryonicise your AK-47s with you now or what?), having read most of the thread I know that there isn't - well from the OP I know that, but am not surprised that karma or whatever made the match in names as most peep's first word association with an armory is guns, a place to store guns & weapons - the fact that armories are mostly well protected & hopefully secure is very much secondary in people's minds & the fact that body armor or passive defense stuff may be in it even less so, I don't think it's a big deal that a headline grabbing illegal weapons dealing Bitcoin Tor site has chosen almost the same name but more that as someone else pointed out Armory is not really a good name choice for a secure offline wallet for non geeks, it associates too much in peep's minds with guns & ammo, that will put some folks off & confuse others

much better as someone also mentioned, vault - as in the excellent BullionVault online service for physical PMs, so how about BitcoinVault if it's available (just checked, the .com - it's parked so open for offers I expect, I'd have bought it for you if it was unregistered, though I was expecting for sure it wouldn't be free), anyway though it's not crucial I think that a much better name could be found while this project is still relatively early stages (acknowledging the enormous amount of great work that you've already put in to it, but expecting this to really be a long term Bitcoin winner) & also I like the idea of a poll thread for that with suggestions & voting with you picking one or choosing your own after getting that feedback

also could go non proper word as you said, like Bitcoinica does or Mt. Gox, Bicos Wallets say, BItcoin COld Storage Wallets

I didn't see any new donations to the project. Do you have any skin in the game?

I said that I had only just found out about it & looked forward to trying it out, that was very late last night my time - as yet I haven't tried it but freely offered my opinion on it's name as others have done which was obviously a waste of time - maybe as I hadn't donated anything as yet in the 15 minutes since I first saw it, I'm in no rush to try the wallet out & in even less of a rush to make any donations to it if at all now - congrats on probably bouncing me off the list of potential donators 

[cypherdoc]

Otoh,

i know you from the Bitcoinica threads and you're a reasonable guy.

please support eto's very worthwhile project.  you will only benefit.