How to Turn Bitcoin Into the Top Payment Network and the Currency of the Future

[Jon]

Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.

Make Bitcoin easier than this and give people incentive to switch to Bitcoin from their current methods, then Bitcoin will be a step closer to being mainstream.

Non-existent fees and a decentralized network aren't going to sell most people on Bitcoin. The key thing is user experience.

You have to make it easy for people to get Bitcoins and send them. We're nowhere close.

Step 2: Make a Bitcoin card and make it compatible with current credit card machines.

How do most people purchase things in store?

1. They bring their item(s) to checkout, they are priced and they are given a total.
2. They scan their credit card.
3. They bring their items to the car and go about their lives.

They don't want to pull out their phone, type in how much they want to spend, point it at a QR code and wait for the network to register it. That's not innovation. It's pure stupidity. If this is the future of Bitcoin, then Bitcoin is going nowhere for ordinary people.

[CAUTION: YOU ARE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK INTO THE FUTURE]

There's a simpler solution: You give consumers credit cards with the Bitcoins (or private key) encoded on the magnetic strip, with a Bitcoin wallet address on the outside of the card.

You give merchants software for their credit card machines that hook directly to the Bitcoin network and directly transfer from Bitcoin private keys on customer's cards.

Consumers load up their cards at home through the public wallet address on the front of their cards. They go shopping, pick their items and scan the cards without a sweat when they want to purchase.

What if they are afraid their Bitcoin credit card has had its information stolen? They empty the card out and use another one. It's very simple.

If they are paranoid enough, they can tie the Bitcoin cards to two private keys and the card can't be emptied without a PIN number or approval from a mobile phone.

However, most consumers will be fine with just using plain cards. An extra complicated step is not the best solution for most people.

In fact, cards can be made into a cash/credit hybrid. A card won't have to carry more than $20 at any given time. Such a card won't have to have tight security.

You won't have to put more on a card than you are willing to lose.

In summary, follow these two steps and Bitcoin will be the currency of the future.

You're welcome.

[1715255891]

1715255891

[1715255891]

1715255891

[vuce]

Maybe someone could hack one of those credit card terminals to decrypt the aes encrypted private key using pin as input. That'd be pretty awesome.

[Jon]

Maybe someone could hack one of those credit card terminals to decrypt the aes encrypted private key using pin as input. That'd be pretty awesome.

That's a great idea.

It doesn't need to be hacked. Most credit card terminals have an open plugin development process. What you have stated is very feasible and relatively easy to develop.

[BusmasterDMA]

There's a simpler solution: You give consumers credit cards with the Bitcoins (or private key) encoded on the magnetic strip, with a Bitcoin wallet address on the outside of the card.

In this situation a customer would be sharing their private key with everyone that handles the card.  An unscrupulous merchant or employee could then transfer funds from that account whenever desired.  And since transaction are non-reversable the consumer would have no recourse, no 1-800 number to call to have the funds reinstated. 

That is how you loose the average person to the concept of bitcoin, by telling them that all they need to know is that it functions identically to a concept with which they are already familiar, such as a credit card.  Then reality strikes and the consumer is forced to discover the nuances that they couldn't be troubled to learn in the first place.

[Jon]

There's a simpler solution: You give consumers credit cards with the Bitcoins (or private key) encoded on the magnetic strip, with a Bitcoin wallet address on the outside of the card.

In this situation a customer would be sharing their private key with everyone that handles the card.  An unscrupulous merchant or employee could then transfer funds from that account whenever desired.  And since transaction are non-reversable the consumer would have no recourse, no 1-800 number to call to have the funds reinstated.  

I've already listed a solution to this. So has vuce. It's a non-issue and merchants already store credit card information today.

Besides, cards could easily be limited in how much you put on them. If somebody compromises one card, you could limit how much you lose. You simply use a new card when you can. With there being several cards per person, the incentive to steal card information is extremely low; even lower than credit cards.

So, again, it's a non-issue.

Then reality strikes and the consumer is forced to discover the nuances that they couldn't be troubled to learn in the first place.

Not when the nuance is insignificant.

[stcupp]

Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.

Use an alternative client and you wont have to wait for the blockchain to download.
Use an alternative client with the new URI scheme and payment is as easy as clicking a link and hitting send.
That is alot easier than credit cards.....

Even with the default client and the new URI scheme its as easy as letting the blockchain download, clicking a link and hitting send.
It only takes me 2 hours to download the whole blockchain.
and it takes like 3 seconds to hit a link and hit send

What is so hard about that?

[Jon]

Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.

Use an alternative client and you wont have to wait for the blockchain to download.
Use an alternative client with the new URI scheme and payment is as easy as clicking a link and hitting send.
That is alot easier than credit cards.....

Even with the default client and the new URI scheme its as easy as letting the blockchain download, clicking a link and hitting send.
It only takes me 2 hours to download the whole blockchain.
and it takes like 3 seconds to hit a link and hit send

What is so hard about that?

Tell this to a person who doesn't even know what a client is. Tell me how that goes.

This is about introducing ordinary people to Bitcoin.

[kiba]

Do...or offer up a bounty for something concrete. That is all.

[Matthew N. Wright]

[CAUTION: YOU ARE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK INTO THE FUTURE]

Goddamnit, I clicked the thread header because I thought the overly-sure sounding tone of title would surely be coming from someone who had experience making things happen.

Son, I am disappoint. Moving along.

You're welcome.

*grimace*

[Timo Y]

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

In practice, for non-tech savvy users, it often works a little bit more like this:

1. Find product you like
2. Click purchase
3. Get up and fumble for your wallet somewhere in one of your jackets.
4. Return to your desk 5 minutes later.
5. Spend 3 minutes typing lots of redundant information such as address and date of birth.
6. Click ‘next’ => ‘Session expired!’
7. Repeat the whole process of selecting product and type lots of redundant information a second time.
8. Click ‘next’ => ‘Please enable popups!’
9. Spend 5 minutes looking for ‘disable popups’ button in browser settings.
10. Click ‘next’ => ‘Session expired!’
11. Repeat the whole process a third time.
12. Mistype credit card number because of growing impatience, causing error message and emptying of fields.
13.  Type lots of redundant information a fourth time.
14.  3D-Secure windows pops up, prompting for password.
15. Can’t remember password. Click ‘forgot password’
16. Wait 5 minutes for confirmation email to arrive
18. Choose new password.
19. ‘Session expired!’
20. Type in lots of redundant information  a 5th time.
21. Wait 2 minutes for ‘processing payment’ window to clear
22. ‘Your card has been declined!’
22. Try another credit card. Type in lots of redundant information a 6th time.
23. Product is on its way!
24. Have sleepless nights over auto-renewals sneaking their way into your cc bill.



Using the Android Bitcoin client:

1. Get out phone.
2. Tap app symbol.
3. Scan QR code on website
4. Enter amount
5. Tap send.
6. Product is on its way!

That's it.

Don't worry. We are getting there.

[Matthew N. Wright]

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

In practice, for non-tech savvy users, it often works a little bit more like this:

1. Find product you like
2. Click purchase
3. Get up and fumble for your wallet somewhere in one of your jackets.
4. Return to your desk 5 minutes later.
5. Spend 3 minutes typing lots of redundant information such as address and date of birth.
6. Click ‘next’ => ‘Session expired!’
7. Repeat the whole process of selecting product and type lots of redundant information a second time.
8. Click ‘next’ => ‘Please enable popups!’
9. Spend 5 minutes looking for ‘disable popups’ button in browser settings.
10. Click ‘next’ => ‘Session expired!’
11. Repeat the whole process a third time.
12. Mistype credit card number because of growing impatience, causing error message and emptying of fields.
13.  Type lots of redundant information a fourth time.
14.  3D-Secure windows pops up, prompting for password.
15. Can’t remember password. Click ‘forgot password’
16. Wait 5 minutes for confirmation email to arrive
18. Choose new password.
19. ‘Session expired!’
20. Type in lots of redundant information  a 5th time.
21. Wait 2 minutes for ‘processing payment’ window to clear
22. ‘Your card has been declined!’
22. Try another credit card. Type in lots of redundant information a 6th time.
23. Product is on its way!
24. Have sleepless nights over auto-renewals sneaking their way into your cc bill.



Using the Android Bitcoin client:

1. Get out phone.
2. Tap app symbol.
3. Scan QR code on website
4. Enter amount
5. Tap send.
6. Product never arrives and there is no way to get your money back!

That's it.

Don't worry. We are getting there.

FTFY.

[istar]

You should need to enter the amount. The amount should be in the QR code and I think its a suggested bip for the URI.
Or maybe its allready here in some clients.

[BusmasterDMA]

I've already listed a solution to this. So has vuce. It's a non-issue and merchants already store credit card information today.

Encrypting the private key with a PIN wouldn't solve it since the merchant would still see the decrypted key. That would prevent middlemen from picking up the card and emptying the balance though.  

Merchants storing credit card numbers is very different than storing private keys.  Firstly merchants are reluctant to attempt anything fishy with credit card numbers because they have to answer to the payment processor, who could cancel their merchant account.  

To allow merchants to "pull" funds properly would seem to need a similar banking infrastructure to what is in place now. Banks or credit card companies would simply denominate and store funds in BTC instead of USD.  Fees would of course still be involved to facilitate to banks as intermediaries.

The alternative, if users are to control their own funds, is to have the user "push" the transaction, likely with the use of a smartphone as you describe.  You are right, this can be a clumsy process, scanning QR codes.  There is room for improvement and perhaps NFC adoption will help smooth the process.  

Besides, cards could easily be limited in how much you put on them. If somebody compromises one card, you could limit how much you lose. You simply use a new card when you can. With there being several cards per person, the incentive to steal card information is extremely low; even lower than credit cards.

Right, the loss would be reduced.  It's just something that consumers would need to fully understand.

[stcupp]

Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.

Use an alternative client and you wont have to wait for the blockchain to download.
Use an alternative client with the new URI scheme and payment is as easy as clicking a link and hitting send.
That is alot easier than credit cards.....

Even with the default client and the new URI scheme its as easy as letting the blockchain download, clicking a link and hitting send.
It only takes me 2 hours to download the whole blockchain.
and it takes like 3 seconds to hit a link and hit send

What is so hard about that?

Tell this to a person who doesn't even know what a client is. Tell me how that goes.

This is about introducing ordinary people to Bitcoin.

1. download and install the client
2. run the client
3. wait for the bar at the bottom to fully load could be a couple hours but it will only take awhile to load your first time
4. load your wallet with some bitcoins
5.click a payment link
6.click send

easy enough right?

And for people that really have no clue what theyre doing:
1. go to mtgox.com
2. make a account and load it with some money
3. buy bitcoins
4. send your payment to the payment address provided by seller

[Jon]

Right, the loss would be reduced.  It's just something that consumers would need to fully understand.

The loss would be significantly reduced. Don't keep more than $20 on a card and you have little to worry about.

Crooks would be out of business since cards would be spent before they could even use stolen private keys.

To allow merchants to "pull" funds properly would seem to need a similar banking infrastructure to what is in place now.

It won't. It will only require a modified bitcoin client and a connection to the network. The private keys would load like they normally do.

Fees would of course still be involved to facilitate to banks as intermediaries.

There would only be miner fees which are highly competitive. They are dirt cheap at the moment.

[Jon]

Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.

Use an alternative client and you wont have to wait for the blockchain to download.
Use an alternative client with the new URI scheme and payment is as easy as clicking a link and hitting send.
That is alot easier than credit cards.....

Even with the default client and the new URI scheme its as easy as letting the blockchain download, clicking a link and hitting send.
It only takes me 2 hours to download the whole blockchain.
and it takes like 3 seconds to hit a link and hit send

What is so hard about that?

Tell this to a person who doesn't even know what a client is. Tell me how that goes.

This is about introducing ordinary people to Bitcoin.

1. download and install the client
2. run the client
3. wait for the bar at the bottom to fully load could be a couple hours but it will only take awhile to load your first time
4. load your wallet with some bitcoins
5.click a payment link
6.click send

easy enough right?

And for people that really have no clue what theyre doing:
1. go to mtgox.com
2. make a account and load it with some money
3. buy bitcoins
4. send your payment to the payment address provided by seller

It's easy in theory but ordinary people are still turned off by the current interface. Again, it works like this in theory but the user still can't easily understand the process.

Also, Mt. Gox. holds your funds for you. There's no need for that. There's no need to require ID in order to use Bitcoins.

[stcupp]

It's easy in theory but ordinary people are still turned off by the current interface. Again, it works like this in theory but the user still can't easily understand the process.

Also, Mt. Gox. holds your funds for you. There's no need for that. There's no need to require ID in order to use Bitcoins.

ordinary people will never understand what is actually going on with private keys and public keys and all that.
just like ordinary people don't understand what goes on with credit cards...

I don't use mtgox but I thought they only require ID on values over 1000 USD or 10000 USD a month???
and this isn't just a mtgox rule its a rule with any exchange that operates legally with AML compliance

[Rassah]

The only way to fully secure something like this is to use two keys to sign transactions, and have every card swipe verified and confirmed by phone. But if you are carrying a phone with a Bitcoin app anyway, might as well just use that by itself.
Making Bitcoin work with just a plastic card may be impossible.

[Jon]

ordinary people will never understand what is actually going on with private keys and public keys and all that.
just like ordinary people don't understand what goes on with credit cards...

I am glad we agree. I just want to see things as seamless as possible. I just want people to feel like they are handing cash to each other with no hurdles in between. I want the software to completely serve the people.

I don't use mtgox but I thought they only require ID on values over 1000 USD or 10000 USD a month???
and this isn't just a mtgox rule its a rule with any exchange that operates legally with AML compliance

A wallet can be made that deals directly and nearly exclusively with the Bitcoin network on the web. Blockchain.info comes close.

Yeah, the ID discussion is moot at this point in time.

[Jon]

The only way to fully secure something like this is to use two keys to sign transactions, and have every card swipe verified and confirmed by phone. But if you are carrying a phone with a Bitcoin app anyway, might as well just use that by itself.
Making Bitcoin work with just a plastic card may be impossible.

The cards can be made disposable. A cash/credit hybrid, if you will. The whole security paradigm disappears once a single card doesn't have to be made fully secure.

What I mean is that people won't have to put more than say $20 on a card.

You won't have to carry more than you can afford to lose.

[Red Emerald]

What I mean is that people won't have to put more than say $20 on a card.

This is not convenient.  What happens when I want to spend $25? I go to my computer and transfer funds around and then have to wait for 6 confirmations?

Giving anyone your private key, even a "trusted" merchant, is incredibly foolish.  After swiping your card once, you could never trust it again.

A smart phone app that reads a QR code is the easiest and most secure so far IMO.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58552.0 links to this video that shows how easy it can be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOcLros-w0

[Matthew N. Wright]

What I mean is that people won't have to put more than say $20 on a card.

This is not convenient.  What happens when I want to spend $25? I go to my computer and transfer funds around and then have to wait for 6 confirmations?

Giving anyone your private key, even a "trusted" merchant, is incredibly foolish.  After swiping your card once, you could never trust it again.

A smart phone app that reads a QR code is the easiest and most secure so far IMO.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=58552.0 links to this video that shows how easy it can be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDOcLros-w0

Alas, this has all been discussed immensely under Atlas's other numerous account names, but he just doesn't get it. He thinks that the risk of giving away your information to a merchant is better than the security provided by a service that has the potential to screw you over.

Bottom line guys, when you have to use a service, you have to trust someone. It's money for Christ's sake.

[Jon]

This is not convenient.  What happens when I want to spend $25? I go to my computer and transfer funds around and then have to wait for 6 confirmations?

You use another card just like how you take another 20 out of your pocket. The cards will be like banknotes but less wasteful. You can rewrite a card with a different key if you want.

Giving anyone your private key, even a "trusted" merchant, is incredibly foolish.  After swiping your card once, you could never trust it again.

So you don't use credit cards?

Do you really think a business will stay in business if it keeps misusing people's financial information?

The worry is unwarranted and, again, the cards are disposable.

[ArticMine]

Step 1: Make a Bitcoin web portal that is the easiest way to pay and get paid.

How does money work for most people online?

1. They find an item or service they like.
2. They click purchase.
3. They enter their credit card or Paypal information.
4. The item/service is on its way.

That's it. They don't have to wait for the network to finish downloading the blockchain. They don't have to enter a couple of passwords and validate the purchase an extra time. It just works.

Make Bitcoin easier than this and give people incentive to switch to Bitcoin from their current methods, then Bitcoin will be a step closer to being mainstream.

Non-existent fees and a decentralized network aren't going to sell most people on Bitcoin. The key thing is user experience.

You have to make it easy for people to get Bitcoins and send them. We're nowhere close.

Step 2: Make a Bitcoin card and make it compatible with current credit card machines.

How do most people purchase things in store?

1. They bring their item(s) to checkout, they are priced and they are given a total.
2. They scan their credit card.
3. They bring their items to the car and go about their lives.

They don't want to pull out their phone, type in how much they want to spend, point it at a QR code and wait for the network to register it. That's not innovation. It's pure stupidity. If this is the future of Bitcoin, then Bitcoin is going nowhere for ordinary people.

[CAUTION: YOU ARE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK INTO THE FUTURE]

There's a simpler solution: You give consumers credit cards with the Bitcoins (or private key) encoded on the magnetic strip, with a Bitcoin wallet address on the outside of the card.

You give merchants software for their credit card machines that hook directly to the Bitcoin network and directly transfer from Bitcoin private keys on customer's cards.

Consumers load up their cards at home through the public wallet address on the front of their cards. They go shopping, pick their items and scan the cards without a sweat when they want to purchase.

What if they are afraid their Bitcoin credit card has had its information stolen? They empty the card out and use another one. It's very simple.

If they are paranoid enough, they can tie the Bitcoin cards to two private keys and the card can't be emptied without a PIN number or approval from a mobile phone.

However, most consumers will be fine with just using plain cards. An extra complicated step is not the best solution for most people.

In fact, cards can be made into a cash/credit hybrid. A card won't have to carry more than $20 at any given time. Such a card won't have to have tight security.

You won't have to put more on a card than you are willing to lose.

In summary, follow these two steps and Bitcoin will be the currency of the future.

You're welcome.

This assumes that the customer wishing to pay for a product or service on line actually has a credit card. There is a huge market for Bitcoin for those online merchants who wish to sell products or services to those that do not have a credit card. This is not about making Bitcoin more convenient, it is about identifying where Bitcoin is the only viable option and where the alternative is: No Sale.

[Red Emerald]

So you don't use credit cards?

Do you really think a business will stay in business if it keeps misusing people's financial information?

The worry is unwarranted and, again, the cards are disposable.

Actually I don't have a credit card.

I do use a debit card though and it has the same flaw according to you.  What you forget is that credit card companies can restore any funds stolen from me.  A stolen bitcoin private key does not have the same problems as a stolen credit card number.

I should have realized you were Atlas. Thanks for saving me time, Matt.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

I respectfully disagree with the OP that bitcoins on some type of a plastic spending card is the future.

Plastic discs for music are not used anymore.  Everything is all digital, portable, and has much better utility.

Plastic payment cards for purchases are going to face a similar fate as CDs.  I don't think it makes any sense to have bitcoin go backwards in technology.

The future is all digital.  Payments Cards, Gift Cards, all that plastic crap in your wallet is about to be replaced with something in digital form, just like the stack of music CDs has been replaced my collections of MP3 files.

Digital Wallets are the future.  What we need are simple, elegant, mobile bitcoin wallets.  No block chain, no hassle, make it simple and easy.  Ditch the plastic cards, that's 1950s technology.  Go with the digital wallet, its where bitcoin shines!!!

[Jon]

I respectfully disagree with the OP that bitcoins on some type of a plastic spending card is the future.

Plastic discs for music are not used anymore.  Everything is all digital, portable, and has much better utility.

Plastic payment cards for purchases are going to face a similar fate as CDs.  I don't think it makes any sense to have bitcoin go backwards in technology.

The future is all digital.  Payments Cards, Gift Cards, all that plastic crap in your wallet is about to be replaced with something in digital form, just like the stack of music CDs has been replaced my collections of MP3 files.

Digital Wallets are the future.  What we need are simple, elegant, mobile bitcoin wallets.  No block chain, no hassle, make it simple and easy.  Ditch the plastic cards, that's 1950s technology.  Go with the digital wallet, its where bitcoin shines!!!

Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.

[Jon]

So you don't use credit cards?

Do you really think a business will stay in business if it keeps misusing people's financial information?

The worry is unwarranted and, again, the cards are disposable.

Actually I don't have a credit card.

I do use a debit card though and it has the same flaw according to you.  What you forget is that credit card companies can restore any funds stolen from me.  A stolen bitcoin private key does not have the same problems as a stolen credit card number.

I should have realized you were Atlas. Thanks for saving me time, Matt.

A stolen Bitcoin private key will result in a very small loss according to my system.

You have yet to prove using multiple cards with various amounts will result in a likely chance of significant loss:

It won't.

I stand by my system completely. Getting ripped off with my system is as likely as your waitress refusing to give you change out of a $50 bill.

[ArticMine]

I respectfully disagree with the OP that bitcoins on some type of a plastic spending card is the future.

Plastic discs for music are not used anymore.  Everything is all digital, portable, and has much better utility.

Plastic payment cards for purchases are going to face a similar fate as CDs.  I don't think it makes any sense to have bitcoin go backwards in technology.

The future is all digital.  Payments Cards, Gift Cards, all that plastic crap in your wallet is about to be replaced with something in digital form, just like the stack of music CDs has been replaced my collections of MP3 files.

Digital Wallets are the future.  What we need are simple, elegant, mobile bitcoin wallets.  No block chain, no hassle, make it simple and easy.  Ditch the plastic cards, that's 1950s technology.  Go with the digital wallet, its where bitcoin shines!!!

Credit Cards were designed in the 1950's and 1960's for in person transactions. Their use online is actually a hack and one that leads to fraud, charge backs etc. What I see that many forget is that there are many people who still use cash and it is in most cases the poor.  The reason they use cash is because they do not have a credit card or a bank account for that matter. To mention an extreme case. One can give cash to a homeless person on the street, but can one perform the same transaction with a digital wallet? I am not aware of many homeless people that have merchant accounts! To put it bluntly the poor are the low hanging fruit for Bitcoin, not for in-person transactions but for online transactions.

[hoo]

bitcoin cannot exist as a currency and a commodity, and be widely accepted as either.

look at this scenario: sitting around at a restaurant, waiting for the price to go up so you can settle the receipt.

[Red Emerald]

bitcoin cannot exist as a currency and a commodity, and be widely accepted as either.

look at this scenario: sitting around at a restaurant, waiting for the price to go up so you can settle the receipt.

When/if bitcoin gets to that level of acceptance, the price won't be as volatile as it is currently and so it won't be a problem.

[goodlord666]

Digital Wallets are the future.  What we need are simple, elegant, mobile bitcoin wallets.  No block chain, no hassle, make it simple and easy.  Ditch the plastic cards, that's 1950s technology.  Go with the digital wallet, its where bitcoin shines!!!

I agree with this.
iPOD type little sci-fi wallets with digital screens for the mass market.

One of the biggest problems is super-instantaneous payments user-to-user in the street. 10 minutes of waiting for the first confirmation is good enough for online-payments, but elsewhere the received funds must flash on your screen within a second.

I guess there will be numerous different solutions to handle Bitcoins.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.

What's this I hear? Atlas suddenly wants to champion for the world's poor?

Face it. Electronics that enable activities that cannot be done without them are not at fault for not being able to function in a time and space that they don't in fact exist in.

Did you think Bitcoin was free or something? Have you looked around at the mining subforums lately?

[ArticMine]

Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.

What's this I hear? Atlas suddenly wants to champion for the world's poor?

Face it. Electronics that enable activities that cannot be done without them are not at fault for not being able to function in a time and space that they don't in fact exist in.

Did you think Bitcoin was free or something? Have you looked around at the mining subforums lately?

The poor are not going to use the "cheap plastic" or the "expensive device" for in person transactions. They will likely stay with cash. Online where cash does not work is where Bitcoin has the real opportunity with the poor.

[Jon]

Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.

I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.

Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.

Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.

[Koekiemonster]

It's cool you're trying to come up with ideas to stimulate the bitcoin economy, but when you get hardly any positive feedback from the community you should drop it ok? If these people don't see anything in your idea, they probably are right..

Why would I want to take many cards with me? I already hate it to take a few with me, any card I would have to take extra is a burden. Also charging different cards is waaay too much of a hassle. I can't see how you think this is the future.. QR-codes/NFC and mobile wallets or any new inventions will be the future.

[ArticMine]

Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.

I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.

Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.

Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.

In solidarity with the poor. None of the above. Just cash.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.

youre missing the point.  people already have these devices.  There are a billion camera phones in the world.  There's no need to buy an expensive device.  We can build the future with software, all software.  Ditch the plastic cards and start making digital wallets that can work on any phone.

M-PESA in Africa sends payments by SMS text message.  we can do that with bitcoin, someone should figure it out.

[Raoul Duke]

oh fuck, he's back again

We missed you Atlas.

[Jonathan Ryan Owens]

Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.

youre missing the point.  people already have these devices.  There are a billion camera phones in the world.  There's no need to buy an expensive device.  We can build the future with software, all software.  Ditch the plastic cards and start making digital wallets that can work on any phone.

M-PESA in Africa sends payments by SMS text message.  we can do that with bitcoin, someone should figure it out.

Oh Tony, you seem to have missed the point..

A $50 device with 5 hours of battery life, a 3g connection, a camera, and a solid, utilitarian style. -- compatible with the steve jobs look -- is the only way to ensure that BecauseBitcoin.com is prominently displayed for all the other turtle neck wearing woolong device carrying citizens; Citizens who will then know that you, Tony, have graduated into the inner sanctum of digital hip.

Because, Bitcoin.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.

I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.

Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.

Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.

[CAUTION: YOU ARE ABOUT TO TAKE A LOOK INTO THE FUTURE]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LG_Optimus_One

[Jon]

Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.

I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.

Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.

Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.

That’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. You do realize that all mainstream financial institutions are already heading this direction, don’t you genius?

Have you ever considered shitting out of the other side of your body like the rest of the world!

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

[shata]

Ill tell you know why this will never take off although this is a good idea. Ebay will never let bitcoin be accepted method.

[deslok]

I've paid for things with my phone, then again it's a bit more advanced than that trinket. Maybe Texas is just too backwards for high technology?

[Matthew N. Wright]

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

That's because you live in the armpit of assland Texas. Try coming to Asia where we make everything you get 6 years before you get it. I use my phone to pay for everything. Please step aside and let the adults talk.

[Jon]

I've paid for things with my phone, then again it's a bit more advanced than that trinket. Maybe Texas is just too backwards for high technology?

Try again. Austin is second to Silicon Valley in tech.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I've paid for things with my phone, then again it's a bit more advanced than that trinket. Maybe Texas is just too backwards for high technology?

Try again. Austin is second to Silicon Valley in tech.

Sure is! And even Silicon Valley itself sucks balls compared to Japan, Korea, Taiwan and China.

EDIT: Americans are really good at standardizing things. Asians are really good at getting them out the door, that's why there are more lawsuits and safety issues against Asian products than even US products. You sir, are in the wrong country to be talking about imaginary ideas that need to be made and tried before they can work. America is more about proving something can work before it does.

[Jon]

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

That's because you live in the armpit of assland Texas. Try coming to Asia where we make everything you get 6 years before you get it. I use my phone to pay for everything. Please step aside and let the adults talk.

Asia is a different culture. What works for Asians may not always work fully for Americans and other peoples.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

That's because you live in the armpit of assland Texas. Try coming to Asia where we make everything you get 6 years before you get it. I use my phone to pay for everything. Please step aside and let the adults talk.

Asia is a different culture. What works for Asians may not always work fully for Americans and other peoples.

It is a different culture indeed, and as I've pointed out numerous times, I truly believe that Bitcoin is essentially useless to Koreans for example who can wire transfer over their cell phone in the same amount of time it would take to send bitcoins, all from a secured, locked down, government backed and insured bank of 100+ years history without incurring any fees at all.

That right there though only works in a country as small as Korea for legal reasons alone. Having something like that in the USA would be a nightmare for legal and financial reasons. And that is exactly my point. America hasn't been the "leader" in technology in a long, long time. Right now it's the anvil of the technology world-- solid, but weighing everything else down.

[payb.tc]

2. make a [mtgox] account and load it with some money

anyone care to break this step down into it's 483 sub-steps?

[deslok]

2. make a [mtgox] account and load it with some money

anyone care to break this step down into it's 483 sub-steps?

step 72 includes handing over your firstborn

[ArticMine]

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

That's because you live in the armpit of assland Texas. Try coming to Asia where we make everything you get 6 years before you get it. I use my phone to pay for everything. Please step aside and let the adults talk.

Asia is a different culture. What works for Asians may not always work fully for Americans and other peoples.

It is a different culture indeed, and as I've pointed out numerous times, I truly believe that Bitcoin is essentially useless to Koreans for example who can wire transfer over their cell phone in the same amount of time it would take to send bitcoins, all from a secured, locked down, government backed and insured bank of 100+ years history without incurring any fees at all.

That right there though only works in a country as small as Korea for legal reasons alone. Having something like that in the USA would be a nightmare for legal and financial reasons. And that is exactly my point. America hasn't been the "leader" in technology in a long, long time. Right now it's the anvil of the technology world-- solid, but weighing everything else down.

Until they wish to purchase a product or service from a US Website without a Credit Card. International cross culture online transactions is where Bitcoin will shine, not in person local transactions where there is already a smorgasbord of payment methods  to choose from. Reading this thread is like watching a bunch of people argue on the most effective way to pick the fruit right at the top of the tree when is an abundance of ripe fruit ready to be picked right at arms length. I say pick the easy fruit first, feast, and then worry about the fruit at the top of the tree.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

Yes, let's replace cheap plastic, disposable cards with an expensive device. Let's require all the poor people out there to invest in electronics.

youre missing the point.  people already have these devices.  There are a billion camera phones in the world.  There's no need to buy an expensive device.  We can build the future with software, all software.  Ditch the plastic cards and start making digital wallets that can work on any phone.

M-PESA in Africa sends payments by SMS text message.  we can do that with bitcoin, someone should figure it out.

Oh Tony, you seem to have missed the point..

A $50 device with 5 hours of battery life, a 3g connection, a camera, and a solid, utilitarian style. -- compatible with the steve jobs look -- is the only way to ensure that BecauseBitcoin.com is prominently displayed for all the other turtle neck wearing woolong device carrying citizens; Citizens who will then know that you, Tony, have graduated into the inner sanctum of digital hip.

Because, Bitcoin.

Jonathan  I don't want to carry multiple devices around.  Give me something where I can use bitcoin easily on the devices I already carry with me everywhere.

Facebook doesn't have a device, and the facebook wallet will be strictly software also.  and 800 million people can use it.

[nebulus]

Using the Android Bitcoin client:

1. Get out phone.
2. Tap app symbol.
3. Scan QR code on website
4. Enter amount
5. Tap send.
6. Product is on its way!

That's it.

Don't worry. We are getting there.

Thumbs up! This is the future...
One question: Wouldn't PayPal be able to do exactly the same thing if they wanted to?

[niko]

A stolen Bitcoin private key will result in a very small loss according to my system.

You have yet to prove using multiple cards with various amounts will result in a likely chance of significant loss:

It won't.

I stand by my system completely. Getting ripped off with my system is as likely as your waitress refusing to give you change out of a $50 bill.

Son, there is no system. There is only a very vague idea. I appreciate the fact that you are thinking and coming up with ideas, but I don't appreciate pompous bullshitting.  If you ever actually start developing a system around the ideas you outlined, you might notice that the devil is in the details. More likely, you won't even notice, but you will continue working immersed in arrogance.

[stochastic]

In summary, follow these two steps and Bitcoin will be the currency of the future.

You're welcome.

Wow so cool.  When are you going to implement this and open up your company?

[stochastic]

Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.

I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.

Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.

Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.

That’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. You do realize that all mainstream financial institutions are already heading this direction, don’t you genius?

Have you ever considered shitting out of the other side of your body like the rest of the world!

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

In many other places in the world, this is how they transect purchases.  I was in Congo a few months back and saw all these people go to a store and play with their phone at the cash register.  I didn't know what they were doing and the sales person showed me how they can send money to each via SMS.  I thought, why don't we do this in America?

I guess it doesn't matter anyway.  "Boss" is on my ignore list.

[ArticMine]

Yes, swiping a card then walking out the door with your items is so primitive.

I rather pay $49.99 for Bitpay's digital wallet with a 5 hour battery life, go through various menus, wait several seconds for the QR code to scan and finalize the transaction.

Oh wait, my battery died. I guess I won't be buying anything today.

Is there a gas leak in here? I swear, you guys are thinking like a failing toy company.

That’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life. You do realize that all mainstream financial institutions are already heading this direction, don’t you genius?

Have you ever considered shitting out of the other side of your body like the rest of the world!

I see nobody paying with their phone. Zero. Whatever the banks are doing is worth nothing. You people are stuck in a nerdy scifi dream world.

In many other places in the world, this is how they transect purchases.  I was in Congo a few months back and saw all these people go to a store and play with their phone at the cash register.  I didn't know what they were doing and the sales person showed me how they can send money to each via SMS.  I thought, why don't we do this in America?

I guess it doesn't matter anyway.  "Boss" is on my ignore list.

It does not happen in the United States because the United States has one of the most archaic and over regulated banking systems in the world. M-PESA is one of the most innovative financial products world wide and it is not available in "developed" countries because of banking regulations more often than not at the behest of the United Sates. By the way one of the really cool features of M-PESA is that one can walk into a store and purchase M-PESA for cash and have your M-PESA credited to your phone. 

Even here in Canada our banking system is decades ahead of the US system.

[EightBit]

2. make a [mtgox] account and load it with some money

anyone care to break this step down into it's 483 sub-steps?

step 72 includes handing over your firstborn

seriously.  This US citizen tech and finance savvy newbie is at day 9 attempting to buy $50 of BitCoin.  I think I might be able to by the end of the week.

[finway]

we need price to rise,
we need serious companies in,
flurish!

[ArticMine]

seriously.  This US citizen tech and finance savvy newbie is at day 9 attempting to buy $50 of BitCoin.  I think I might be able to by the end of the week.

Here is Canada one can do this in a matter of a few hours
1) Sign up for an account at https://www.cavirtex.com/
2) Walk to the nearest Royal Bank of Canada and deposit $50
3) In 1-3 hours your account at https://www.cavirtex.com/ is credited
4) Purchase Bitcoin and withdraw to wallet

[Jon]

I thought about it long and hard.

Phones are the solution if people accept them as such.

However, we still need a card. I don't want to see people completely tethered to their phones. The fact is we need terminal software to connect to the Bitcoin network. This will allow for both cards and phones with the same hardware.

When Bitcoin cards begin to be accepted, so will phone payments through RFC.

Both will coexist.

I apologize for any close-mindedness. I am just biased towards phones. They stress me out.

[Rassah]

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards. Short of having a pre-loaded debit card serviced by some entity in the exact same way as banks do with fiat now, I really can't see how this can work. I do wish it could though.

[cunicula]

Why not just set up VISA debit cards funded with bitcoin balances, converting bitcoins into USD etc. whenever the account holder makes a USD transaction?

[qualalol]

On point 1: a site like Ebay that mainly (or even exclusively) uses bitcoin would be a great idea... (I don't have much clue about silkroad, but I'm getting the impression it's a pretty similar concept. For the average Joe however it's not usable, so a nice and easy website on the "normal" web would be wise). You could easily integrate escrow into the site using bitcoin.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I apologize for any close-mindedness. I am just biased towards phones. They stress me out.

This is how to communicate. Welcome to the human race brother.

[kwukduck]

If it's too hard for 'normal' people to install an app on their phone, start it, scan code, click send... then im afraid we've lost already.

Also, remember that if you use cards with private keys from which the POS terminals extract the bitcoins for the purchase, the entire blockchain has to be rescanned for that key, last time i did this it took a while.

[Rassah]

If it's too hard for 'normal' people to install an app on their phone, start it, scan code, click send... then im afraid we've lost already.

Also, remember that if you use cards with private keys from which the POS terminals extract the bitcoins for the purchase, the entire blockchain has to be rescanned for that key, last time i did this it took a while.

If you are adding a private key with all the transactions to your wallet, yes. If all you're doing is signing the public key with a private key, then no, all you need to do is sign the key and broadcast the transaction. You don't even need a copy of the blockchain.

I wonder if it's possible to sign a transaction on a keyfob or some similar small NFC device, without the terminal that's transmitting the transaction getting a copy of the private key? If yes, maybe the device could be something like the pic below with a button, so the terminal would display the amount, and if you agree, you hold down the button, bring the keyfob up to the terminal, the device signs the public address with the private key and amount, and the terminal only broadcasts the signed transaction without ever seeing the private key.



I have a feeling my lack of understanding of cryptography means I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Rassah]

Just talked to a friend of mine who's more familiar with cryptography, and apparently something like this is possible. The keyfob would have to store the public and private keys, be able to receive NFC data as well as send it, and be able to sign transactions:

Sales terminal comes up with the amount.
Swiping the keyfob transmits the public address to the terminal.
Terminal creates a transaction with the public address and the amount, displaying the transaction (and checking if enough funds are available).
Customer verifies the amount, and swipes the keyfob again.
Terminal uploads the newly created transaction to the keyfob, the keyfob signs it with the private key, and transmits the signed transaction back to the terminal.
Terminal uploads the transaction to the Bitcoin network.

A physical button on the keyfob that you need to press to transmit would keep it secure, and conserve battery power. No need for displays or other buttons. hopefully something that has a tiny amount of flash, just enough CPU power to sign keys,  and an NFC transmitter/receiver won't be too costly.
Comments?

[DeathAndTaxes]

Just talked to a friend of mine who's more familiar with cryptography, and apparently something like this is possible. The keyfob would have to store the public and private keys, be able to receive NFC data as well as send it, and be able to sign transactions:

Sales terminal comes up with the amount.
Swiping the keyfob transmits the public address to the terminal.
Terminal creates a transaction with the public address and the amount, displaying the transaction (and checking if enough funds are available).
Customer verifies the amount, and swipes the keyfob again.
Terminal uploads the newly created transaction to the keyfob, the keyfob signs it with the private key, and transmits the signed transaction back to the terminal.
Terminal uploads the transaction to the Bitcoin network.

A physical button on the keyfob that you need to press to transmit would keep it secure, and conserve battery power. No need for displays or other buttons. hopefully something that has a tiny amount of flash, just enough CPU power to sign keys,  and an NFC transmitter/receiver won't be too costly.
Comments?

Better would be using a smartcard with a display and keypad.

merchant displays total: 123.49 BTC.
you enter in 123.49 into keypad.
card prompts you for pin (optional), you enter pin.
Card displays amount & "OK?" (for verification).
Hit OK, swipe/NFC and leave.

The technology already exists:


Making these cards in bulk is pretty cheap (~$30 for 1000+ dropping to <$10 for millions).  The card doesn't need the blockchain.  It simply needs a few public/private keypairs and the ability to perform ECC.

The technology isn't the hard part.  Hydrogen fuel cell technology exists too.  Getting a hydrogen fuel station on ever corner is the hard part.  Getting every merchant to accept this Bitcoin card is the hard part.

It is a capital & infrastructure issue not a technology one.  I do agree with most of the reponses that a card which hands the merchant the private key is beyond useless.  Comparing it to credit card is dubious.  consumers have fraud protection on credit cards.  Using credits cards isn't anonymous.  A merchant (or just smart employee working for honest merchant) could steal private keys with near immunity.

Whatever system is devised it needs to be that the card/phone/device does everything and only hands the signed transaction to the merchant (who verifies it and submits it to the blockchain or 3rd party processing service).

[Rassah]

I was aiming for the simplest, and thus cheapest option. If NFC terminals only need a software plugin for this to work, something like a keyfob without any display or buttons would be way cheaper to mass produce. Also, the discussion was about making this as easy as using credit cards. Swiping a keyfob once or twice is much simpler than typing out amounts on tiny buttons.
Plus having a slightly bulkier device attached to the keychain means there won't be expensive size restrictions requiring more expensive tiny components. I agree, getting the infrastructure in place is the biggest hurdle, but getting cheap prototypes that don't require hundreds per device just for a proof of concept would be important, too.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I was aiming for the simplest, and thus cheapest option. If NFC terminals only need a software plugin for this to work, something like a keyfob without any display or buttons would be way cheaper to mass produce.

You say "customers verifies amount".  How?

Like I said smartcards with displays and keypads are pretty cheap.  The cost of card is nothing compared to the cost of infrastructure, and large enough merchant support to make any venture worthwhile.

[Rassah]

I was aiming for the simplest, and thus cheapest option. If NFC terminals only need a software plugin for this to work, something like a keyfob without any display or buttons would be way cheaper to mass produce.

You say "customers verifies amount".  How?

Like I said smartcards with displays and keypads are pretty cheap.  The cost of card is nothing compared to the cost of infrastructure, and large enough merchant support to make any venture worthwhile.

Amount is displayed at the cash register/terminal. At least in this case, if the store displays 8BTC and charges 80, you have an irrefutable, time stamped record that this money was spent at this time, and know who swindled you.

And, again, I'm going for ease of use before cost. Small displays and buttons will be a problem for people with poor eyesight, shaky or thick fingers, or with gloves, and they take time to type in amounts (especially if Bitcoin rises in value, and you have to type 0.00473440 or something). With a swipe all you do is confirm the price on the cash register and swipe.

[Matthew N. Wright]

The technology already exists:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46366.msg584701#msg584701

Agreed.

Except in doing my own research over the past 4 months or so on those cards, there is looking like less and less chance of ever getting them to work standalone unless we can get the proper microchip custom built for hashing. It's a trick thing but it's a better investment than bulky card-shaped USB drives and plastic swipe cards.

[foggyb]

seriously.  This US citizen tech and finance savvy newbie is at day 9 attempting to buy $50 of BitCoin.  I think I might be able to by the end of the week.

Here is Canada one can do this in a matter of a few hours
1) Sign up for an account at https://www.cavirtex.com/
2) Walk to the nearest Royal Bank of Canada and deposit $50
3) In 1-3 hours your account at https://www.cavirtex.com/ is credited
4) Purchase Bitcoin and withdraw to wallet

+1

CANADA RULES.
MOVE TO CANADA.

In all seriousness, Boss, the platform (bitcoin) is here. We just need the innovation to implement the user-friendly experience you're looking for. At the moment, I think bitcoin is easy for about 1/4 of the population (ie. 16-30 year-old tech-savvy consumers). We're getting there, slowly.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Except in doing my own research over the past 4 months or so on those cards, there is looking like less and less chance of ever getting them to work standalone unless we can get the proper microchip custom built for hashing. It's a trick thing but it's a better investment than bulky card-shaped USB drives and plastic swipe cards.

There are some smartcards capable of ECC and SHA-256.  Performance likely is bad but you are only doing a few computations per transactions.  Smartcards tend to have very limited flashrom though so space would be "tight".  The fact that Bitcoin uses a "weird" ECC curve doesn't help either.

[Portnoy]

seriously.  This US citizen tech and finance savvy newbie is at day 9 attempting to buy $50 of BitCoin.  I think I might be able to by the end of the week.

Here is Canada one can do this in a matter of a few hours
1) Sign up for an account at https://www.cavirtex.com/
2) Walk to the nearest Royal Bank of Canada and deposit $50
3) In 1-3 hours your account at https://www.cavirtex.com/ is credited
4) Purchase Bitcoin and withdraw to wallet

+1

CANADA RULES.
MOVE TO CANADA.

Virtex doesn't have much volume/liquidity [ yet? ] for it to be as useful as one would like in an
exchange. There is also not an easy way of moving CAD and/or USD to and from other exchanges
to take advantage of good arbitrage opportunities. Even when paxum was in the bitcoin business
and even though it was based in Canada it didn't offer much to Canadians. 

I feel like I have to move to America or someone else just to participate, as fully as I would like,
in the Bitcoin game. 

I am more of an investor than a trader and I have been able to take part in some good action there
now and then, so I won't complain too much... but it would be so nice if Grady2000 and Virtex would
make some agreements to start working with bitinstant or the like.   

[Matthew N. Wright]

Except in doing my own research over the past 4 months or so on those cards, there is looking like less and less chance of ever getting them to work standalone unless we can get the proper microchip custom built for hashing. It's a trick thing but it's a better investment than bulky card-shaped USB drives and plastic swipe cards.

There are some smartcards capable of ECC and SHA-256.  Performance likely is bad but you are only doing a few computations per transactions.  Smartcards tend to have very limited flashrom though so space would be "tight".  The fact that Bitcoin uses a "weird" ECC curve doesn't help either.

Totally. Worst of all, you still need an external power supply so these cards need to be swiped/plugged in somewhere to actually do anything. We're a few innovations away from getting something that thin working cheaply, but when it does work, it'd be the ideal transport for Bitcoin.

[hashman]

Reading through this thread just proves that different people/situations prefer/require different payment methods.   

I don't see why the existing credit card architectures couldn't also be used with bitcoin.  I swipe my card, Discover tells the store I am legit and transaction is recorded on Discover's private servers.  I take the shot of whisky put the card back in my velcro pocket and dive back into the surf.  One month later if I didn't complain, Discover posts a TX to the merchant (minus fee) and sends me a bill (plus fee).

             

[Matthew N. Wright]

Wait, I just realized the best way to handle money....minted paper and coins! We should make some kind of... I don't even have the energy to finish this joke.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Wait, I just realized the best way to handle money....minted paper and coins! We should make some kind of... I don't even have the energy to finish this joke.

PG to the rescue (take a nap, Matt):

[casascius]

I tend to agree with the OP's line of thinking.  I believe this guy knows what he is talking about.  I don't think those who disagree with him are "wrong", but he clearly gets a concept that many of us do not seem to grasp.

Yes, many people (myself included) will prefer smartphones as a way to transfer bitcoins.  But it will be a huge leap of progress when trading Bitcoins through tangible objects becomes more commonplace.

I don't envision plastic cards - I envision disposable self-printed paper wallet bills with QR codes - where the standard methodology is you allow the QR code to be scanned by a merchant, and it swipes the money off the private key, leaving behind change (on the honor system - consistent with OP's vision).  The control against theft is you just don't put that much money on a single code - or secondarily, the change can be sent to another address not controlled by the merchant (e.g. another paper wallet in the holder's physical wallet). Most merchants are going to be honest, that's just the way things are.

I don't envision vending machines with any sort of touchscreens or any crap needed to accept bitcoins other than a QR code scanner.  With a QR scanner, you show your code, buy what you want, it takes bitcoins off your address and sends back the change to the same address it took them from.  That's the level of convenience the OP insists (and which I agree) Bitcoin needs to be taken seriously as an everyday currency.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I tend to agree with the OP's line of thinking.

You tend to agree with Atlas? Probably want to keep that one to yourself.

[Jon]

I tend to agree with the OP's line of thinking.

You tend to agree with Atlas? Probably want to keep that one to yourself.

Come on, Matthew, you know I am not a bad guy. This isn't grade school.

[goodlord666]

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards.

Allow me to protest! In principle, fiat banknotes and coins are push-only, too. Unless we're talking about having your dollars pulled from your back pocket.

Turning Bitcon into a pull-system would be as simple as updating the client to allow incoming pull requests and upon verification using key-pairs or something have the BTC auto-sent.

If your coins were stored in a bitcoin bank, what's to keep you from using a credit card in a store which allows the merchant to make a quick check on liquidity on your account and then send a pull request to your bank? The bank then sends the coins to the vendor.

And Boss gets to spend his bitcoins using a credit card, hooray!


edit: typo

[DeathAndTaxes]

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards.

Allow me to protest! In principle, fiat banknotes and coins are push-only, too. Unless we're talking about having your dollars pulled from your back pocket.

Turning Bitcon into a push-system would be as simple as updating the client to allow incoming pull requests and upon verification using key-pairs or something have the BTC auto-sent.

Or better build pull systems on TOP of Bitcoin.

Cash = push only
Credit cards, Debit Cards, ACH, etc = pull payment systems built on top of cash.

Bitcoin = push only
something, something else, also something else = pull payment systems built on top of Bitcoin

[rjk]

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards.

Allow me to protest! In principle, fiat banknotes and coins are push-only, too. Unless we're talking about having your dollars pulled from your back pocket.

Turning Bitcon into a push-system would be as simple as updating the client to allow incoming pull requests and upon verification using key-pairs or something have the BTC auto-sent.

If your coins were stored in a bitcoin bank, what's to keep you from using a credit card in a store which allows the merchant to make a quick check on liquidity on your account and then send a pull request to your bank? The bank then sends the coins to the vendor.

And Boss gets to spend his bitcoins using a credit card, hooray!

This is something that I have been turning over in my head for many months, in relation to such things as paying for a monthly service (VPS for example). My idea was to use a protocol such as iCalendar or some such, and integrate it into a client to automatically pay out of a wallet the necessary amount each month (after approval by the wallet owner). That way, the price could be specified in USD by the merchant, and the client would automatically fetch the current BTC <> USD value each month and tell the wallet owner how much to pay out to the service.

[Matthew N. Wright]

I tend to agree with the OP's line of thinking.

You tend to agree with Atlas? Probably want to keep that one to yourself.

Come on, Matthew, you know I am not a bad guy. This isn't grade school.

Au contraré, only in grade school would you define people as 'good' or 'bad' and not weigh individual risks and annoyances by people based on their views, attitudes, etc.

I've already seen you admit to not being 100% accurate twice in the past few days. It's a breathtaking change of pace for sure, but you still live in a glass house and have got quite a ways to go.

[goodlord666]

I don't envision plastic cards - I envision disposable self-printed paper wallet bills with QR codes

Let me bring this to another level:
Women LOVE credit cards. Women DONT LOVE disposable self-printed paper wallet bills with QR codes.

[goodlord666]

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards.

Allow me to protest! In principle, fiat banknotes and coins are push-only, too. Unless we're talking about having your dollars pulled from your back pocket.

Turning Bitcon into a push-system would be as simple as updating the client to allow incoming pull requests and upon verification using key-pairs or something have the BTC auto-sent.

If your coins were stored in a bitcoin bank, what's to keep you from using a credit card in a store which allows the merchant to make a quick check on liquidity on your account and then send a pull request to your bank? The bank then sends the coins to the vendor.

And Boss gets to spend his bitcoins using a credit card, hooray!

This is something that I have been turning over in my head for many months, in relation to such things as paying for a monthly service (VPS for example). My idea was to use a protocol such as iCalendar or some such, and integrate it into a client to automatically pay out of a wallet the necessary amount each month (after approval by the wallet owner). That way, the price could be specified in USD by the merchant, and the client would automatically fetch the current BTC <> USD value each month and tell the wallet owner how much to pay out to the service.

Wow, parallel thinking.. me like!
Only, why bother with USD conversion? If we can make the system work just for Bitcoins, fair enough!

What you describe is what I envision for home use, for the majority of people bitcoin banks in cooperation with credit card companies are probably the solution.

Somebody has just gotta do it.

[Red Emerald]

I just can't picture carrying a stack of what are essentially gift cards with varying amounts in my wallet.  I hate going into Jamba Juice and handing them a card with 5 cents on it and then digging around to find another card with 12 cents on it.

A cheap camera phone could sign a transaction and then give it to the merchant to relay.  No need for the customer to have internet access or an expensive smart phone.  We have a system that doesn't require trusting merchants.  Lets keep it that way.

I also think having one device (yes, even one with batteries) is better than a bunch of plastic or paper.  I see physical coins as a system for trading when there isn't electricity/internet around and as something to help people who are used to paper cash and coins transition away towards a digital currency.

[rjk]

I think the biggest barrier to all of this is that Bitcoin is a push only system. There's no way for Bitcoin to get pulled from an account, like fiat can get pulled from banks or credit cards.

Allow me to protest! In principle, fiat banknotes and coins are push-only, too. Unless we're talking about having your dollars pulled from your back pocket.

Turning Bitcon into a push-system would be as simple as updating the client to allow incoming pull requests and upon verification using key-pairs or something have the BTC auto-sent.

If your coins were stored in a bitcoin bank, what's to keep you from using a credit card in a store which allows the merchant to make a quick check on liquidity on your account and then send a pull request to your bank? The bank then sends the coins to the vendor.

And Boss gets to spend his bitcoins using a credit card, hooray!

This is something that I have been turning over in my head for many months, in relation to such things as paying for a monthly service (VPS for example). My idea was to use a protocol such as iCalendar or some such, and integrate it into a client to automatically pay out of a wallet the necessary amount each month (after approval by the wallet owner). That way, the price could be specified in USD by the merchant, and the client would automatically fetch the current BTC <> USD value each month and tell the wallet owner how much to pay out to the service.

Wow, parallel thinking.. me like!
Only, why bother with USD conversion? If we can make the system work just for Bitcoins, fair enough!

What you describe is what I envision for home use, for the majority of people bitcoin banks in cooperation with credit card companies are probably the solution.

Somebody has just gotta do it.

Until we have major buy-in and therefore stability, there is no way any sane merchant will try to price his service in only BTC. This enables merchants to get a predictable amount of USD for their services each month, with no work really needing to be done. The decentralized online automatic reoccurring bill-pay!

[Rassah]

So, um, what was the problem with the idea of having one simple keyfob-sized device with one button, whose only function is to sign transactions pushed to it when it's swiped, without giving out the private key?

[rjk]

So, um, what was the problem with the idea of having one simple keyfob-sized device with one button, whose only function is to sign transactions pushed to it when it's swiped, without giving out the private key?

An evil POS or hacked version could display the wrong amount, and charge you for way more? I dunno, I guess that is something that could happen already - but when dealing with something that is irreversible, I tend to be more cautious.

[Matthew N. Wright]

So, um, what was the problem with the idea of having one simple keyfob-sized device with one button, whose only function is to sign transactions pushed to it when it's swiped, without giving out the private key?

It's been argued to death. The infrastructure behind it being accepted at all is not limited by the card itself-- that technology is already being used today by every credit card outside of the USA-- the requirements are from the POS developers and service providers. It's not a technology issue, it's a standards issue. Good luck with it as all I can say.

[siggy]

Let me bring this to another level:
Women LOVE credit cards. Women DONT LOVE disposable self-printed paper wallet bills with QR codes.

THIS is the most important post I've read in this whole thread.  (I know my wife well.)  If you want mainstream adoption, anything beyond SWIPE & enter PIN is going to be a non-starter.

Sooo..  figure out a way to make 2 factor authentication work with.. 1) SWIPE physical card... 2) enter 4 digit PIN.   

If we are talking smartcards here, I can _maybe_ see 1) SWIPE  2) card displays amount and custom generated PIN valid only for that amount  3) enter 4 digit PIN

Sigg

[Matthew N. Wright]

Let me bring this to another level:
Women LOVE credit cards. Women DONT LOVE disposable self-printed paper wallet bills with QR codes.

THIS is the most important post I've read in this whole thread.  (I know my wife well.)  If you want mainstream adoption, anything beyond SWIPE & enter PIN is going to be a non-starter.

Sooo..  figure out a way to make 2 factor authentication work with.. 1) SWIPE physical card... 2) enter 4 digit PIN.   

If we are talking smartcards here, I can _maybe_ see 1) SWIPE  2) card displays amount and custom generated PIN valid only for that amount  3) enter 4 digit PIN

Sigg

Well, I totally agree that that is in fact the norm, but it may or may not be in our interest to actually try to ween consumers away from their current habits.

[siggy]

[Well, I totally agree that that is in fact the norm, but it may or may not be in our interest to actually try to ween consumers away from their current habits.

OK..  after re-reading my post, I think I put the stress in the wrong place.  What I should have said was "Anything more complicated than SWIPE & PIN is a non starter" ..  I think any 1 or 2-step process would probably work, so long as it is simple.  The KISS concept is in play here.   

OK.. so if we go the smartphone route.. could you integrate a bluetooth connection between the wallet and the POS terminal to send the payment request?

Scenario:   Clerk rings up new pair of B100 shoes..  POS does a quick scan and see's that wife's bluetooth wallet is closest to the register.  POS sends the B100 payment request to wife's phone.  Phone goes "BING" and wife sees the wallet with a message:  "Would you like to pay B100 to Expensive Shoe Store?"   Wife taps the "YES" button on her screen.  Her wallet takes care of sending the payment.

In the above scenario, wife's entire interaction is to tap the "YES" button... keeping things simple for her.. she'd go for that.

Alternatively, could a RFID/Bluetooth enabled smartcard be created with a simple display that does the same thing?  basically piggyback off the POS internet connection to send out the transaction to the nearest node?

Sigg

   

[Matthew N. Wright]

OK..  after re-reading my post, I think I put the stress in the wrong place.  What I should have said was "Anything more complicated than SWIPE & PIN is a non starter" .. 

Couldn't agree more. Bitcoin is about as interesting to the average consumer as the type of engine in a car to the average driver.

[goodlord666]

it may or may not be in our interest to actually try to ween consumers away from their current habits.

no, you can do that later, after it's become the 'top payment network and currency of the future'.

Agreed. Luring people into Bitcoin by way of adapting to the norm first could pave the way for widespread acceptance. And then someone may come up with a killer application for handling that'll totally change habits. I think Bitcoin's strength lies in its flexibility to be handled in all sorts of different ways.

[Rassah]

I have mentioned this on this forum before:

BlackBerry captured the business PDA market by advertising their devices as pagers capable of sending longer page texts, not as the first portable wireless e-mail devices that they actually were, because back in the 90's, "WTF is an e-mail?"

TiVo advertised their devices as revolutionary digital video recorders with hard drives, that revolutionize the way we watch TV by recording things digitally, and allowing us to timeshift live programming. TiVo has pretty much always been near dead because, "WTF is a digital video recorder with timeshift?" Had they advertised themselves as a digital VCR you didn't need to rewind, things may very likely have been different.

This is a marketing and development lesson that Bitcoin MUST heed if it wants any chance at addoption.

(Thank you UMCP MBA program for this, and many other insights)

[Rassah]

So what do we use that people already know? Are you saying Bitcoin should be marketed as the currency of choice for drug dealers that you can buy coffee with too?

BTW: How was your meet-up with Atlas yesterday? I’m only asking this to see if he will lock this thread too!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64951.0  ROTFL

Simple swipes. Same as credit cards. Even actual credit cards that are loaded with Bitcoin and charge the same fees to begin with if we must. People will accept the familiar with revolutionary backbone they don't have to think about way easier than a totally new paradigm change. That's why I was thinking just a dumb swipable keyfob, or even a visa loaded with Bitcoin on some centralised bank service (wasn't MtGox planning on having VISA card?) instead of smartphones or smart cards with keypads and screens.

As for the chat, we just talked about how stuff is going. I was mainly interested in how he was doing, how his school was going (he just finished high school), whether he was doing ok (didn't seem to have emotional issues), and stuff like that, followed by some "where are you from" when he heard my accent, and some reminiscing on old forum discussions. Normal people stuff.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I am not aware of many homeless people that have merchant accounts!

With smartphones, homeless magazine vendors to become citizen journalists

Homeless people in the U.K. who sell an entertainment magazine called The Big Issue will soon receive smartphones in an effort to turn them into citizen journalists. The Press Gazette reports, “The vendors will be encouraged to blog and use social networking websites like Twitter and Facebook to capture and upload images and audio, according to Big Issue founder John Bird.” Vendors buy the weekly magazines for £1 and sell them for £2; the charity hopes the income will help them get off the streets. Bird notes that the vendors are uniquely suited to be newsgatherers because they “stand on streets up and down the country come rain or shine.”

[Jointops420]

I am sort of homeless, I live in a shipping container on 400acres with a PC 5x6950's a laptop and a smart phone, go figure. Smart phones will be a dime a dozen soon enough.
Reading somewhere on advertising they stated that phone companies are not selling copper cables capable of many things but the ability to have emotional contact with friends and families. Maybe theres to much emphasis put on the tech side of bitcoin rather than what it can do for peoples lives so they must have it. Just an unedumacated thought.

[goodlord666]

Just to throw this in:

multibit.org has an excellent presentation. The choice of words, an introduction that boils down to the very essentials of what bitcoins and a wallet are.

[hashman]

What is the currency of choice for drug dealers that you can buy coffee with too[/i]?

Is it now the Euro?  I'm guessing the Euro.  There are some caffeine addicted motherfuckers out there stuck with € to unload and I bet they pay a healthy premium on other drugs too. 

 

[Rassah]

I remember, MtGox was planning on that. I wonder what happened. I guess that makes sense. But who would make and distribute the keyfob?

Well, I looked up the prices for some of the components, and they would be extremely cheap to make. Something like $2 for the NFC chip and $5 to $10 for the processor and memory. Whole device may end up costing less than $15, and that's for buying parts one at a time. Downside is that it would still need NFC terminals at cash registers, and until Google Wallet propagates their system, that won't go anywhere. I see RFID readers on card swipe terminals everywhere now, but I suspect they are receive only, and the keyfob would require receiving a transaction to sign.
As for Gox, maybe once they get their financial licences, it'll be easier for them to get VISAs

Disappointing! I was hoping you might get an insight as to why he wants to be a Bitcoin teenaged groupie. He seems to really like being here. I can’t really understand why. I don’t really even love being here but I’ve invested so much I’m afraid that If I don’t check into the forum daily I'll miss something that costs me a bunch of money. He would have so much more fun here if he would just interject something once in a while instead of starting threads that end in “You're Welcome.”

I think he's just an entrepreneurial type. I fully understand, since although I'm still doing the 9 to 5, I also have a lot of ideas and really want to go out there to try them out. Bitcoin is so new and unexplored that there still are a lot of possibilities in it. Look at Gox; it started as a magic the gathering card exchange running on a single computer in some guy's basement, and is now an international business with over $10,000,000 in annual revenue. I'm very certain that Bitcoin still has a lot of similar opportunities. As for the other stuff, how else do you learn if not by asking questions and bouncing ideas off of others? I actually find his posts wildly entertaining, since even if what he says is completely bonkers, it starts a discussion, and people who point out mistakes in the idea still end up teaching me things I likely wouldn't have even thought of myself.

[Ten98]

You idiots need to stop thinking about how to integrate Bitcoin into physical stores. Visa and Mastercard have that market sewn up TIGHT and will FUCK YOU UP if you even try to get into it.

Bitcoin could potentially be the top ONLINE payment network and kick PAYPAL to the kerb, that could actually happen. Concentrate on that instead.

[Rassah]

You idiots need to stop thinking about how to integrate Bitcoin into physical stores. Visa and Mastercard have that market sewn up TIGHT and will FUCK YOU UP if you even try to get into it.

*coughDiscoverAmericanExpressGoogleWalletcoughcough*

Sorry, had something in my throat.

[Ten98]

WTF is Discover?

American Express is on a rapid decline

Google wallet is just Mastercard in Disguise.

Visa and Mastercard are the only serious contenders in the area of in-store physical payment. Did I mention that they will FUCK YOU UP?

Troll harder, noob.

[Rassah]

WTF is Discover?

American Express is on a rapid decline

Google wallet is just Mastercard in Disguise.

Visa and Mastercard are the only serious contenders in the area of in-store physical payment. Did I mention that they will FUCK YOU UP?

Troll harder, noob.

Discovercard.com It's a card used everywhere in the States just like VISA and MasterCard.

American Express has been "in decline" since it started. It is the only card I've seen being used in the small businesses I have worked in, because VISA doesn't even come close to the business specific services AmEx offers. Warren Buffett is also a very heavy investor in American Express. I will take his word over yours.

Google Wallet is a payment method. The underlying processor doesn't matter, and I suspect the only reason MasterCard was picked was because they were the cheapest option. There is no reason that Google can say fuck you to MasterCard and go with VISA, PayPal, or Google Checkout instead.

I am curious how you think those companies will, as you say, "FUCK YOU UP." What do you know that the rest of us don't?

[goodlord666]

WTF is Discover?

American Express is on a rapid decline

Google wallet is just Mastercard in Disguise.

Visa and Mastercard are the only serious contenders in the area of in-store physical payment. Did I mention that they will FUCK YOU UP?

Troll harder, noob.

If that were true (cause I dont know) American Express could be an ideal partner for Bitcoin. And their opportunity to regain the top spot in the ccard market.

I've always thought of American Express as THE name in credit cards.

[cbeast]

Bitcoin has properties only barely explored yet. We don't have to be limited to commonly known forms. We can invent new forms. Some will ensure privacy and anonymity, some will provide positive identity. We can wear payment codes publicly and we can conceal private keys in many ways. Without the Authoritarian Architecture of a Central Bank, we are free as individuals to invent new ways to create transactions and will inspire the Open Source developers to create new tools for us to make our lives easier and more convenient. And we will never have to worry again about someone stealing our money through the many frauds of identity theft.

[Rassah]

Bitcoin has properties only barely explored yet. We don't have to be limited to commonly known forms. We can invent new forms. Some will ensure privacy and anonymity, some will provide positive identity. We can wear payment codes publicly and we can conceal private keys in many ways. Without the Authoritarian Architecture of a Central Bank, we are free as individuals to invent new ways to create transactions and will inspire the Open Source developers to create new tools for us to make our lives easier and more convenient. And we will never have to worry again about someone stealing our money through the many frauds of identity theft.

I totally agree, and can't wait until all these ideas become mainstream. Though, regarding the OP's point of getting it adopted, this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64781.msg764034#msg764034 still applies. Most people fear change and the unknown
(people who are interested in Bitcoin and are on this forum, though, don't, and it's why this forum is full of awesome people)

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Bitcoin has properties only barely explored yet. We don't have to be limited to commonly known forms. We can invent new forms. Some will ensure privacy and anonymity, some will provide positive identity. We can wear payment codes publicly and we can conceal private keys in many ways. Without the Authoritarian Architecture of a Central Bank, we are free as individuals to invent new ways to create transactions and will inspire the Open Source developers to create new tools for us to make our lives easier and more convenient. And we will never have to worry again about someone stealing our money through the many frauds of identity theft.

Nicely said cbeast!

I got goosebumps from reading that post, CBH. No BS! If there were a Forum Post Hall of Fame, that one would be in it. Loved the fuck out of it.

~Bruno~