I no longer work for Butterfly Labs (BFL)

[Searing]

I can't find the original terms of the bet, but please enlighten me why it should have been a Win for BFL.

I'm sure it's somewhere in this forum thread.

Thank you for being evasive. So you state that the bet should be a Win for BFL, but you don't want to back up the statement with anything. I won't bother searching for it (maybe k9quaint will do it), but anyone can create a shipping label anytime and can use it at a later time (like in your case) so that can't be your reason, as for actually having the unit that is off too since you claimed to have it in BFL's warehouse.

So that's it everyone. Luke-Jr thinks that the bet should be a Win for BFL because they created a shipping label and they plugged his unit from their warehouse! This is his definition of having the unit.

well actually ..that is as close to actually having a unit 'on time' more or less then any I've heard....they say it is your unit and plug it in at BFL ...(take it and run with it) the other 99% did not even get that much!

Searing

[1713968817]

1713968817

[Luke-Jr]

I can't find the original terms of the bet, but please enlighten me why it should have been a Win for BFL.

I'm sure it's somewhere in this forum thread.

Thank you for being evasive. So you state that the bet should be a Win for BFL, but you don't want to back up the statement with anything. I won't bother searching for it (maybe k9quaint will do it), but anyone can create a shipping label anytime and can use it at a later time (like in your case) so that can't be your reason, as for actually having the unit that is off too since you claimed to have it in BFL's warehouse.

So that's it everyone. Luke-Jr thinks that the bet should be a Win for BFL because they created a shipping label and they plugged his unit from their warehouse! This is his definition of having the unit.

So you're not interested in the facts, just trolling.
Thanks for clarifying that; I'll stop wasting my time answering you.

well actually ..that is as close to actually having a unit 'on time' more or less then any I've heard....they say it is your unit and plug it in at BFL ...(take it and run with it) the other 99% did not even get that much!

Actually, unfortunately not. Even for that unit, I think I waited longer than the average wait time.

[DrG]

What I want to know is what happened at BFL between 3/31/13 and 6/30/13.  It took over 3 months for BFL to go from "shipping" Luke's Single to shipping my Single, and my Single was one of the first 100 ordered.  During that 3 month delay I lost the potential return of my 209BTC outlay.  I want to know if BFL was actively mining at extended length with first Singles.  Ultimately I was only able to mine a little over 17BTC with something I spent 209BTC.  There's not making positive ROI and then there's having a company steal your money outright by using your hardware while blatantly telling lies "oh we can't get it to work".  

[RoadStress]

So you're not interested in the facts, just trolling.
Thanks for clarifying that; I'll stop wasting my time answering you.

I am interested in facts. Facts which you are evading to tell and you put me to search for them. If you say that the bet should have been a Win for BFL then you must know the terms for the bet. Putting me to search for them is a waste of time. If you don't know the terms for the bet then you just talked without nothing to back it up, but I am sure it's not your case.

Please tell us why should the bet be a Win for BFL! Only because there was a shipping label which was never actually used for a long period of time?

[Luke-Jr]

What I want to know is what happened at BFL between 3/31/13 and 6/30/13.  It took over 3 months for BFL to go from "shipping" Luke's Single to shipping my Single, and my Single was one of the first 100 ordered.

Probably not the whole picture, but note that Little Single was the original design (square case that was later used for the 5Gh unit) and used 8 chips (IIRC) to run the 30 Gh/s.
The final 30Gh unit ended up something like 2x the size using only 4 chips (again IIRC), and uses less electrical power.
It probably has a longer lifetime too (the original one already died and got RMA'd a long time ago).

During that 3 month delay I lost the potential return of my 209BTC outlay.

While it probably doesn't help (we all still lost a lot on this downtime), we can't actually know the total loss value.
Had BFL actually delivered on time, the difficulty would have skyrocketted even before the Avalons shipped...

I want to know if BFL was actively mining at extended length with first Singles.  Ultimately I was only able to mine a little over 17BTC with something I spent 209BTC.  There's not making positive ROI and then there's having a company steal your money outright by using your hardware while blatantly telling lies "oh we can't get it to work".  

I don't think they were, but I don't have any evidence either.

So you're not interested in the facts, just trolling.
Thanks for clarifying that; I'll stop wasting my time answering you.

I am interested in facts. Facts which you are evading to tell and you put me to search for them.

It's either you or me searching; I already know the conclusion, so I don't care to take the hours looking through the thread (stupid bitcointalk won't let me download all the posts in it for some reason).

If you say that the bet should have been a Win for BFL then you must know the terms for the bet. Putting me to search for them is a waste of time. If you don't know the terms for the bet then you just talked without nothing to back it up, but I am sure it's not your case.

I knew the terms over a year ago when it was an active topic.
I recall the conclusion (that it should have been a BFL Win), but not the details.

[DrG]

What I want to know is what happened at BFL between 3/31/13 and 6/30/13.  It took over 3 months for BFL to go from "shipping" Luke's Single to shipping my Single, and my Single was one of the first 100 ordered.

Probably not the whole picture, but note that Little Single was the original design (square case that was later used for the 5Gh unit) and used 8 chips (IIRC) to run the 30 Gh/s.
The final 30Gh unit ended up something like 2x the size using only 4 chips (again IIRC), and uses less electrical power.
It probably has a longer lifetime too (the original one already died and got RMA'd a long time ago).

During that 3 month delay I lost the potential return of my 209BTC outlay.

While it probably doesn't help (we all still lost a lot on this downtime), we can't actually know the total loss value.
Had BFL actually delivered on time, the difficulty would have skyrocketted even before the Avalons shipped...

I want to know if BFL was actively mining at extended length with first Singles.  Ultimately I was only able to mine a little over 17BTC with something I spent 209BTC.  There's not making positive ROI and then there's having a company steal your money outright by using your hardware while blatantly telling lies "oh we can't get it to work".  

I don't think they were, but I don't have any evidence either.

I know they revised it but I can't see the revision taking 3 months - 90 days since they said they were working weekends as well.

My 55GH/s (barely scraping the 10% tolerance rule they set) Single died 5 days after it arrived, and it took them 11 days to RMA it.  If BFL got their units out before Avalon Batch 2 they would have at least tried to commit to their advertising failure of being the first ASIC manufacturer which is what they touted when they hooked me in 6/2012.

I thought put this all past me and just wanted to keep it as a learning experience to not trust people, but now I am reliving this nightmare again.  And with the new "revelation", I think the community can agree that BFL has committed blatant fraud.  If I did similar things I lose my license and probably my house and all my assets.

BFL will have their day in court to defend themselves.  Too bad Satan can't be called in as a witness.

[RoadStress]

It's either you or me searching; I already know the conclusion, so I don't care to take the hours looking through the thread (stupid bitcointalk won't let me download all the posts in it for some reason).

If you say that the bet should have been a Win for BFL then you must know the terms for the bet. Putting me to search for them is a waste of time. If you don't know the terms for the bet then you just talked without nothing to back it up, but I am sure it's not your case.

I knew the terms over a year ago when it was an active topic.
I recall the conclusion (that it should have been a BFL Win), but not the details.

Ok. I won't search and you won't either. I remember that bet was for BFL delivering units before 1st April. No matter how you or me interpret the terms of the bet, the purpose was the same. No matter happened with your unit the facts remain and those are that the next unit and even your unit left BFL 3 months later. This whole discussion on the terms of the bet is pointless for me. The bet wasn't made by lawyers or by someone who can state some neutral terms. Bet was made by a normal person and he put what he thought to be decent terms for it (unfortunately very vague and arguable like in our case). Trying to twist the bet statements is a waste of time since BFL really failed to deliver units before 1st April.

Even if they have physically delivered the unit to you it was still a twist because next units went out of the door 3 months later. I realize that in a court that would stand as a win, but in real life you get shit on your door and some human parts stuck in your holes for such gimmicks.

Carry on!

[Biffa]

So you're not interested in the facts, just trolling.
Thanks for clarifying that; I'll stop wasting my time answering you.

I am interested in facts. Facts which you are evading to tell and you put me to search for them. If you say that the bet should have been a Win for BFL then you must know the terms for the bet. Putting me to search for them is a waste of time. If you don't know the terms for the bet then you just talked without nothing to back it up, but I am sure it's not your case.

Please tell us why should the bet be a Win for BFL! Only because there was a shipping label which was never actually used for a long period of time?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=165500.0

Problem was the title of the bet was at odds with the description of the bet which is why it was classed as a draw (rightly or wrongly, I wasn't involved so am not interested)

[RoadStress]

So you're not interested in the facts, just trolling.
Thanks for clarifying that; I'll stop wasting my time answering you.

I am interested in facts. Facts which you are evading to tell and you put me to search for them. If you say that the bet should have been a Win for BFL then you must know the terms for the bet. Putting me to search for them is a waste of time. If you don't know the terms for the bet then you just talked without nothing to back it up, but I am sure it's not your case.

Please tell us why should the bet be a Win for BFL! Only because there was a shipping label which was never actually used for a long period of time?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=165500.0

Problem was the title of the bet was at odds with the description of the bet which is why it was classed as a draw (rightly or wrongly, I wasn't involved so am not interested)

Thank you. As I said the bet was made by a rushed person, not by lawyers. I am sure that he wasn't even aware that the title is part of the agreement. What matters is that the scope of the bet was is BFL will ship units before 1st April. They clearly haven't shipped anything before or on 1st April. They didn't ship anything the whole April and May month. That's what matters. Luke-Jr says that the bet should be a Win for BFL because they clearly shipped so many units before 1st April.

Edit: Unfortunately the bet was made so horribly wrong because it only asks for a hashing proof. Not having the unit in hand. Worst bet ever! But thank you Luke-Jr for helping scammers from BFL to get a draw on that bet by posting the required pictures 30 minutes before the deadline. We really need more people like you!

[intron]

From 'A point of order: Conduct in this subforum' :

".... Generally the subject matter should be boring —
technical, procedural, dry things. ..."

This thread might not fully comply with this rule I guess:)

[-ck]

From 'A point of order: Conduct in this subforum' :

".... Generally the subject matter should be boring —
technical, procedural, dry things. ..."

This thread might not fully comply with this rule I guess:)

Indeed not but it's been enjoyable watching it.

Anyway I've been watching to try and decide where it fits so I'm now moving it to scam accusations.

[smoothie]

If I remember the bet correctly BFL was supposed to ship their "ASICs" on or before April 1st.

Shipping doesn't consist of walking over to the other side of the building you are in to give Luke-Jr his free ASIC. lol

And that was one unit if I recall.

The context of the bet was that BFL would be shipping "en masse" which is what Josh kept claiming would happen in the never ending Two Weeks (TM) statements he kept giving.

[Luke-Jr]

If I remember the bet correctly BFL was supposed to ship their "ASICs" on or before April 1st.

Shipping doesn't consist of walking over to the other side of the building you are in to give Luke-Jr his free ASIC. lol

And that was one unit if I recall.

The context of the bet was that BFL would be shipping "en masse" which is what Josh kept claiming would happen in the never ending Two Weeks (TM) statements he kept giving.

No, that's not what the bet said.

[smoothie]

If I remember the bet correctly BFL was supposed to ship their "ASICs" on or before April 1st.

Shipping doesn't consist of walking over to the other side of the building you are in to give Luke-Jr his free ASIC. lol

And that was one unit if I recall.

The context of the bet was that BFL would be shipping "en masse" which is what Josh kept claiming would happen in the never ending Two Weeks (TM) statements he kept giving.

No, that's not what the bet said.

lol yet you provide no evidence of what it really said.

I remember clearly the bet was claimed to have been won because BFL "shipped" your unit to you which equated to them walking the unit over to you. Or was it they put your unit on your work bench (area)?

[Cranky4u]

All this infighting will only lead to one thing, the collapse of the BTC core development and support group.

I hereby call for a CEASE FIRE before something really pisses someone off enough to let a virtual nuke go BOOM.

[Luke-Jr]

lol?

[Cranky4u]

lol?

no lol

*cue serious music*

[bcp19]

BFL can't keep playing the "Oh well we made our best effort guess of when development would be done for our products."

If that is true then they have THE WORST development and planning team in history.

Pushing of deadlines over and over and over is unacceptable. I thought the first batch of suckers who bought BFL vaporware would have set a precedent for people to learn from their mistakes. I guess not.

Hey smoothie check this out about how bad is their development team:

You think the customers are frustrated?  You have no idea how the employees feel.  Try spending an hour swapping components you can only see through a microscope sometime...

Year 2014, design and create high performance ASIC chip, BUT swapping small components by hand! An he feels frustrated because of that. Amaizing.

...
I can very plainly state that there were NO 28nm chips available during that time frame.
...
Considering there were *NO* working 28nm chips until late April...

So after lying for the last 9 months the shill comes here and wants to tell the truth! RIGHT! Notice the emphasis on the "NO" chips. Please tell us more bcp19. We DO believe everything that you say. There were no chips before April and Inaba will commit seppukku if he misses the power draws! Yes we believe everything that a BFL employee says. Tell us more about you changing microscope components by hand and how were you so frustrated about that. It surely helps your customers who lost money on their BFL pre-order scheme. We know that ALL BFL customers are idiots because you made "ROI" because you asked for a refund.

There were NO chips before April. Please remember that everyone!

Wow, you are clueless... no, wait... CLUELESS.  Ask an EE about rollout of a new concept item sometime.  Up until then, your ignorance just shows you deserve the tin-foil hat you wear.

[RoadStress]

Wow, you are clueless... no, wait... CLUELESS.  Ask an EE about rollout of a new concept item sometime.  Up until then, your ignorance just shows you deserve the tin-foil hat you wear.

I may be cluesless, but you are the one in a managing position that was frustrated by his or the others incompetence while you were swapping microscope components by hand. Also the continuous delays from BFL show how good are the people that run this scammy business. Of course there are some other reasons like mining with customers hardware or selling it to someone else, but the technical and the managing skills are clearly lacking in this company.

[kano]

FWIW, while I don't have much insider knowledge in BFL day-to-day operations, I do know that as of right now, Nimbus doesn't have software working for any 28nm BFL hardware.
Only just recently, did we finish getting BFGMiner to work properly with the Monarch (despite the announcement for its support in 4.0, there were some bugs that came up as BFL tweaked the firmware to get to the full hashrate).
Nimbus currently relies on a proprietary fork of cgminer, so they can't even deploy that right now.
And while it's possible they could use software I'm not aware of, I was recently asked (with pay) to help adjust Nimbus's operation so it could handle the Monarch - which wouldn't make sense if they already had something working.
...

I was asked (with hardware and pay) and declined.