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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 05:55:28 PM
Last edit: June 27, 2014, 12:13:56 PM by NotLambchop |
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All the goodness of Why Do You Invest?, now in a convenient table format.
This bespoke quality table was laboriously handcrafted by earnest local artisans, using only the finest traditional forum markup to bring you authentic, naturally aged vintage data (circa 6/25/2014).
If you spot any errors, please PM. Feel free to post HERE if you crave a intilectual discussing.
* Multiple numbers in this column correspond to multiple IPO trenches--first tranche, second tranche etc., etc.
** "Dividends paid" is the sum total of all dividends paid to date (6/25/2014).
*** "Profit" is calculated using this formula: ((highest bid)+(Dividends paid)-(Issue price)) / (Issue price) * 100.
This number represents not calculated due to laziness and the inevitable bickering that's sure to ensue about the meaning of "profit."
Suffice it to say none of the securities listed could be called profitable with a straight face. One, thanks for the PM.
[1] In the case of ASICMINER, issue price represents the price at the time of initial listing on Havelock, not the IPO price.
[2] This [three-part offering] is not an investment but a ((zero sum)-fee) game. The issuer is open and honest about this. |
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CanaryInTheMine
Donator
Legendary
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Activity: 2352
Merit: 1060
between a rock and a block!
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June 26, 2014, 05:57:33 PM |
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add ROCK?
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 06:05:19 PM |
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^Sure, and BTMA and BTMB. Soon as they IPO. Nothing to say yet. Done.
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Mrrr
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June 26, 2014, 06:36:26 PM |
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I say sticky this. To make the above list even more painful one might add that the listed 'companies' all had the advantage of crypto's inherent low/no cost in acquiring public funding.
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burp...
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damiano
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Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
103 days, 21 hours and 10 minutes.
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June 26, 2014, 07:02:46 PM |
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nice chart
basically no one should invest on havelock
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tsm13
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Merit: 10
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June 26, 2014, 07:08:48 PM |
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Serious bee's knees edition lol
If your going to ref an ipo price you should correct AM or put in another column returned at least ipo price
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 07:18:33 PM |
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^Bzznzz. Serious business  There's a note ref. for ASICMINER,  Since AM didn't IPO on Havelock, one couldn't buy it on Havelock @IPO price. but I'll add another just to be clearer.Done. |
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Germican
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June 26, 2014, 07:23:23 PM |
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This is not a good representation of the state of the security.
This guy has posted this FUD everywhere he can including multiple subreddits. Is there a lot of scams out there? Yes. Is there a lot of bad investments out there? Yes. However comparing the securities using just btc is rather poor method as the actual cost is also dependant on the USD price as well.
If your investing purely to increase your bitcoin holdings then it's unlikely to make more that what you started with unless you day trade the stocks. This is especially true if bitcoin rapidly increases in value. But like OgNasty has indicated bitcoin is a transfer protocol. There are inherent risks and benefits with that as well. It has potential for a ton but it's all speculation still of what could be.
Now what do securities offer? They offer different things based on the security. Mining contacts, fee shares, or shares of the company for a few. This creates a new level of diversification to invest in and by being only available in btc they can skirt some financial regulations allowing them to access funding easier. It's all about purchasing power. I currently have X and want Y. How much of Y can I buy. While these securities are in bitcoin pricing everything else is tied to the USD or local currency. So if I buy 5 shares of Z company and those 5 shares at the time of purchase in btc was worth $100 if I sell those 5 shares at loss in btc but btc raised in value to the USD and now I can buy $110 with what I sold it for I profited.
The argument to that though is you could have made more money keeping it in btc in the first place, which is completely true. But the issue is if you wanted to diversify beyond a crypto and instead into infrastructure the only way is using the purchasing power of btc at the time you bought.
For example SFI has tanked in price to 25% of the ipo price. This most likely is attributed to their loss of Gocoin, no dividends as it is a long term investment and the market activity isn't high making just a couple dumpers able to crash the market and create even more uncertainty. All while the CEOs of three of their major investments have been producing exactly what they were planning on a reasonable time frame. The head of the fund and CEOs have provided constant updates and publicity being a part of many conferences one of which just ended where announcements were made.
Now looking at this chart SFI seems to be a horrible investment when in reality your paying 0.00025 btc per share for 0.00075 of btc that has been invested in these companies. Ipo was 0.001 btc per share totaling 2000 btc. Roughly 1500 btc of that has already been invested in companies. 220 btc was the fee by the fund and the rest was meant for Gocoin. If the btc for go coin was invested in another company the amount that each share has invested increases even more.
But at last there are no dividends. Which is true however you are owning a part of those companies that may or may not be successful or may or may not produce dividends in the future. That is the risk I take long term with this investment and yes as you could tell I'm fairly well invested in them. As well the fund itself provides the business experience and networking that is needed to grow a company. For that I think the cut the fund takes is acceptable.
With securities you risk the losing out short term for potential bigger gain long term. Holding share of a company that becomes the next visa, while a long shot, is the risk your getting with these securities. It's a huge risk but possibly even bigger reward.
As well many securities are not specific to one coin so say a fatal flaw is found in btc a company has a lot more mobility to shift to other coins compared to being stuck holding the bag.
So do due diligence, know your taking high risks and keep your self diverse and you can do well. The risk of being scammed is very high and at times is almost impossible to see (NEOBEE or Scharmbeck) but that's the risk you take.
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 07:36:08 PM |
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OHAI, Newfriend. Welcome to Bitcointalk! ... Feel free to post HERE if you crave a intilectual discussing. ... Drag the mouse pointer over the word "HERE," left-click, and go go go! Your smartiferous learnings re: "why losing bitcoin is a great way to make money because dollar" will be right at home there  |
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Germican
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June 26, 2014, 07:39:09 PM |
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OHAI, Newfriend. Welcome to Bitcointalk! ... Feel free to post HERE if you crave a intilectual discussing. ... Drag the mouse pointer over the word "HERE," left-click, and go go go! I'll post it there as well so there is discussion in both threads. I don't think it's a great idea to have an extremely biased chart without the some discussion or a disclaimer that the information is not properly interpreted. |
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 07:42:30 PM |
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The chart is factual. If you see any errors in the numbers, feel free to call them out. Facts can be unpleasant, but never biased, extremely or otherwise.
I don't want a repeat of the other thread, where lunatics try to convince themselves that they are making money while losing it.
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Germican
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June 26, 2014, 08:01:16 PM |
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The chart is factual. If you see any errors in the numbers, feel free to call them out. Facts can be unpleasant, but never biased, extremely or otherwise.
I don't want a repeat of the other thread, where lunatics try to convince themselves that they are making money while losing it.
I wouldn't argue the numbers but I argue the interpretation of the numbers. Your claims that you can't make money on these or that they are horrible investments are very subjective. As well your view of profit is purely did you increase your bitcoins when profiting is increasing your buying power. Look at your one profitable security. You claim profit however if the security was bought when btc was 1000 USD then got bought back when btc was 600 USD you didn't profit. You may if you hold those btc and the prices raises past 1000 USD but until that point you did not profit. Plus that requires you to stay "invested" in btc to even ensure that you may eventually profit. To make a more factual chart why not add the USD value at the time of the stats plus the date so purchasing power can be represented is the most accepted representation worldwide. |
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 08:05:26 PM |
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This is not a good representation of the state of the security.
This guy has posted this FUD everywhere he can including multiple subreddits.
Wat Is there a lot of scams out there? Yes. Is there a lot of bad investments out there? Yes. However comparing the securities using just btc is rather poor method as the actual cost is also dependant on the USD price as well.
Learn to unit of account. If you are investing dollars and your slick investment returns fewer dollars than you put in, you've lost money. Regardless of USD/BTC exchange rate. ... So if I buy 5 shares of Z company and those 5 shares at the time of purchase in btc was worth $100 if I sell those 5 shares at loss in btc but btc raised in value to the USD and now I can buy $110 with what I sold it for I profited... If you didn't "invest" your BTC into 5 shares of Z, you would have been able to buy substantially *MORE than 110dollars*. What is it you don't understand? Let me give you your own example, but with some numbers added for teh lulz: 1. You invested 10 BTC in 5 shares of Z at the time when 1 BTC = $100. 2. Time passes, your Z shares [predictably] tank, and are now worth only .1 BTC. 3. BUT HURRAY! Bitcoin/USD rate has changed!!1! Now each bitcoin is worth $1100! 4. You sell your 5 Z-shares, sell your coin on an exchange, and collect $110. 5. PROFIT!! You've turned $100 into $110! ...but wait... If you didn't "invest" those 10 BTC, you'd have 10 BTC instead of just one. You could then sell said BTC on an exchange and receive $11,000 instead of just $110. ...how...  |
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Germican
Member
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Activity: 82
Merit: 10
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June 26, 2014, 08:18:54 PM |
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This is not a good representation of the state of the security.
This guy has posted this FUD everywhere he can including multiple subreddits.
Wat Is there a lot of scams out there? Yes. Is there a lot of bad investments out there? Yes. However comparing the securities using just btc is rather poor method as the actual cost is also dependant on the USD price as well.
Learn to unit of account. If you are investing dollars and your slick investment returns fewer dollars than you put in, you've lost money. Regardless of USD/BTC exchange rate. ... So if I buy 5 shares of Z company and those 5 shares at the time of purchase in btc was worth $100 if I sell those 5 shares at loss in btc but btc raised in value to the USD and now I can buy $110 with what I sold it for I profited... If you didn't "invest" your BTC into 5 shares of Z, you would have been able to buy substantially *MORE than 110dollars*. What is it you don't understand? Let me give you your own example, but with some numbers added for teh lulz: 1. You invested 10 BTC in 5 shares of Z at the time when 1 BTC = $100. 2. Time passes, your Z shares [predictably] tank, and are now worth only .1 BTC. 3. BUT HURRAY! Bitcoin/USD rate has changed!!1! Now each bitcoin is worth $1100! 4. You sell your 5 Z-shares, sell your coin on an exchange, and collect $110. 5. PROFIT!! You've turned $100 into $110! ...but wait... If you didn't "invest" those 10 BTC, you'd have 10 BTC instead of just one. You could then sell said BTC on an exchange and receive $11,000 instead of just $110. ...how... I'm guessing you didn't understand the post. The point isn't that btc can be better return as I agree they likely will be better for some time. The issue is evaluating the investment. If I wanted to invest just in btc i could that's easy. However i choose to diversify and want some companies that are on the cutting edge of advancing btc. My only option is using btc to purchase those. So what do I do. I take my USD buy btc to then buy the security. I could hold it all in btc but there is a different benefit from having shares of ownership in a company that a transfer protocol simply doesn't have. Long term it seems your view is btc will always be the better investment and for the next couple years I think you are right. However once btc is mass adopted and the price stabilizes I think an investment that has the chance of paying out more that what the value of the btc over the long term is alluring. |
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 08:46:20 PM |
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...
I'm guessing you didn't understand the post. The point isn't that btc can be better return as I agree they likely will be better for some time. The issue is evaluating the investment. If I wanted to invest just in btc i could that's easy. However i choose to diversify and want some companies that are on the cutting edge of advancing btc. My only option is using btc to purchase those. So what do I do. I take my USD buy btc to then buy the security.
Look up at the chart above. Regardless of which "cutting edge" company you've invested in, you have lost. If you want to hedge against BTC price tanking, there is a simple way to do it: Sell the BTC and buy USD. I could hold it all in btc but there is a different benefit from having shares of ownership in a company that a transfer protocol simply doesn't have.
So which "cutting edge company" are you "invested" in and @ what price did you buy in? Name me a date you'd like to cash out, and I'll be sure to send you a condolences gif. Long term it seems your view is btc will always be the better investment and for the next couple years I think you are right. However once btc is mass adopted and the price stabilizes I think an investment that has the chance of paying out more that what the value of the btc over the long term is alluring.
It's irrelevant which way BTC moves. As long as you keep "investing" your BTC and decimating your stash, you'll lose--in BTC, dollars, or doughnuts. If you need some historical perspective, simply look at the chart above, it's full of fascinating historical data. As far as "chance" goes, there's a chance that buying scratch tickets will make you a millionaire. Though you probably shouldn't bet on it. Also this:  |
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bitcoin.newsfeed
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June 26, 2014, 08:55:32 PM
Last edit: June 26, 2014, 09:16:16 PM by bitcoin.newsfeed |
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Damn you NotLambchop , giving everything away for free for bitcoin securities investors? You're so generous. You should do an IPO for this table for at least 100BTC(round1), then put a tip address under the table and pay out weekly "divs" to "shareholders" from received tips.  EDIT : Another ideas for maximizing profits for your 90% of private shares(from ehm "private venture capital round"): 1) Moderate this thread. If someone wants to post something here, he must pay 0.001 BTC/post fee to Table Holdings Inc first 2) and of course listing fee 5BTC per "company" , with referral program to gain some cheerleaders on reddit |
... Question Everything, Believe Nothing ...
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Germican
Member
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Activity: 82
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June 26, 2014, 09:17:19 PM |
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...
I'm guessing you didn't understand the post. The point isn't that btc can be better return as I agree they likely will be better for some time. The issue is evaluating the investment. If I wanted to invest just in btc i could that's easy. However i choose to diversify and want some companies that are on the cutting edge of advancing btc. My only option is using btc to purchase those. So what do I do. I take my USD buy btc to then buy the security.
Look up at the chart above. Regardless of which "cutting edge" company you've invested in, you have lost. If you want to hedge against BTC price tanking, there is a simple way to do it: Sell the BTC and buy USD. I could hold it all in btc but there is a different benefit from having shares of ownership in a company that a transfer protocol simply doesn't have.
So which "cutting edge company" are you "invested" in and @ what price did you buy in? Name me a date you'd like to cash out, and I'll be sure to send you a condolences gif. Long term it seems your view is btc will always be the better investment and for the next couple years I think you are right. However once btc is mass adopted and the price stabilizes I think an investment that has the chance of paying out more that what the value of the btc over the long term is alluring.
It's irrelevant which way BTC moves. As long as you keep "investing" your BTC and decimating your stash, you'll lose--in BTC, dollars, or doughnuts. If you need some historical perspective, simply look at the chart above, it's full of fascinating historical data. As far as "chance" goes, there's a chance that buying scratch tickets will make you a millionaire. Though you probably shouldn't bet on it. Also this: First it sounds like you make assumptions. You assume bitcoin will succeed. Whether that's true or not only time will tell. With that assumption you extend it to the thought that gaining more btc will only bring you more buying power. These things are not certain as you seem to think they are. You also state I can hedge using USD. It's true I can but that does not provide me the outcome I desire which is a steady stream of income over the long term. I could play margins or leveraged trades but that isn't what I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure you could guess from my post what I'm invested in and why. Seeing as that was half of the initial post. As well I don't plan to sell unless there is no hope left in the investment which doesn't seem likely so I expect to hold the shares for years. Over the past 6 months I've made most of my btcs from securities however none that I would have stayed with long term other than my current investment. It became pretty easy to figure out the market if you put in the time. The biggest limitation was volume. And because of that it became easy to wait until a big dump happened buy it back up then sell off higher. As well you assume that the time frame for these start up securities are long enough to produce a generalizable conclusion on btc securities. I doubt you have ran the stats data to show validity that your data supports your claim. Most start ups fail with in the first year the difference here is bad businessmen don't have to provide any type of plan to a bank to get a loan to start their business. Here you throw out some colorful banners and tell them they will make 200% investment in a month and people eat it up. This doesn't mean that all securities are bad it just shows you how an unregulated market works. Shit the US has business that go under daily that are traded publically but due to regulations this rate is much lower than crypto securities. All of this does not mean investing in securities is horrible it just means you require more due diligence in evaluating a company and you accept a greater risk by choosing to invest in securities. We all have different methods in investing that's based on our current demographics. Some like longer shots some like safer bets. But regardless it's all a gamble and even the safe bets like btc can tank permanently. |
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 09:25:24 PM |
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Damn you NotLambchop , giving everything away for free for bitcoin securities investors? You're so generous. You should do an IPO for this table for at least 100BTC(round1), then put a tip address under the table and pay out weekly "divs" to "shareholders" from received tips. EDIT : Another ideas for maximizing profits for your 90% of private shares(from ehm "private venture capital round"): 1) Moderate this thread. If someone wants to post something here, he must pay 0.001 BTC/post fee to Table Holdings Inc first 2) and of course listing fee 5BTC per "company" , with referral program to gain some cheerleaders on reddit Don't forget starting a "rating agency" to dole out clever investings advices. Remember this d00d?   Pumping NEOBEE with fancy self-moderated threads 'til finally getting banned lol.  |
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bitcoin.newsfeed
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June 26, 2014, 09:33:13 PM |
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hahaha yes I remember, Derpy was classic  AAA+ Guaranteed. |
... Question Everything, Believe Nothing ...
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NotLambchop (OP)
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June 26, 2014, 09:41:45 PM |
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...
First it sounds like you make assumptions. You assume bitcoin will succeed. Whether that's true or not only time will tell. With that assumption you extend it to the thought that gaining more btc will only bring you more buying power. These things are not certain as you seem to think they are.
Read highlighter FTW!  You also state I can hedge using USD. It's true I can but that does not provide me the outcome I desire which is a steady stream of income over the long term. ...
The chart above depicts a steady stream of losses. Unless a steady stream of losses is the result you desire, stop what you're doing and do the exact opposite. I'm pretty sure you could guess from my post what I'm invested in and why...
Is it bigger than a bread box? Stop being coy and tell me all about ur boss investings. Over the past 6 months I've made most of my btcs from securities however none that I would have stayed with long term other than my current investment. It became pretty easy to figure out the market if you put in the time. The biggest limitation was volume. And because of that it became easy to wait until a big dump happened buy it back up then sell off higher.
What you're describing here is trading, not investment. Trading could be done successfully on the biggest scams--Labcoin, for instance, was pathetically easy, since the people "invested" in it were idiots blinded by greed. That's not the demographic I like to see with something I'm invested in, but trading? That's *exactly* what I want--an endless supply of greater fools. Edit: So much for my SRS BZNZ thread  |
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