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Author Topic: [Theoretical]The Short-Circuit 51% attack vulnerability in non Sha256 altcoins.  (Read 4154 times)
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June 29, 2014, 11:14:19 AM
 #41

Wouldn't it be easier to "make the point" by moding a mining program and raping non-sha altcoins?

Why expend energy in trying to convince others about the theory, instead of actually doing it and showing it? What is the obstacle?

I'm seeking someone with a fairly large amount of Sha 256 asics to help me test the theory.

Some altcoin algos run at like 3-5 Mhs at some GPUs while SHA256 runs at like 500 MHs. It's already 100x+. Why do you need asics? Mod a client and have fun.

In the case of cryptonight which runs at like a few hashes per sec, you are orders of magnitude faster with 500 MHs of a GPU sha256.

You don't understand the premise at all. The hashes are always converted back to sha256, meaning theoretically you could short circuit the entire algorithms of these coins with bitcoin's sha 256 algorithm and still produce valid blocks on the network.

No I understand what you are saying. I do not understand why you "require" sha256 asics for "testing it". You can test it even with a cpu (or gpu).

Yea, in theory one of the slow chained scrypts should be vulnerable, how about Franko? Mod a client and hit that shit hard, lets see if it will break.

Cheesy still gettin love I see <3

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June 29, 2014, 11:28:21 AM
 #42

Wouldn't it be easier to "make the point" by moding a mining program and raping non-sha altcoins?

Why expend energy in trying to convince others about the theory, instead of actually doing it and showing it? What is the obstacle?

Wouldnt it be easier to just open a testnet?

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June 29, 2014, 12:31:44 PM
 #43

shhh  Lips sealed r3wt don't let reality get in the way of some good 'innovation' stories  Wink

Quoting this, so it doesn't get edited and I can come back later for a story.


No intention of editing it.
awaiting said story Cheesy (I know a story or 10 myself).
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June 29, 2014, 12:48:13 PM
 #44

without the technical side.

your theory is based on the assumption that the hash is accepted as is and checked if it meets the difficulty.

instead the values you send are run through the client, a hash is produced using the algo of the coin, and if that production matches up the block is valid.

so a sha256 hash matching isn't enough, it'll be invalid.

snipped code:

Code:
class CBlockHeader
{

    uint256 GetHash() const
    {
        return Hash9(BEGIN(nVersion), END(nNonce));
    }

};

class CBlock : public CBlockHeader
{

    uint256 GetPoWHash() const
    {
        return GetHash();
    }

};

(you were looking at the gethash function from transactions, not blocks in your above snip)

How will it be invalid? the target and all underlying block data are the same. when the hash is converted to sha256, how would the hash be accepted but rejected if it is short circuited with sha256?

Because sha256d(blockheader) produces a different result to sha256d(other_hashing_algo(blockheader)).

If you assert that it can produce the same, that'd be a sha256 collission and every crypto program which uses sha256 is screwed.

As I said earlier, the checks you are looking at all assume the hash you send is the one being used, when the hash is reproduced by each client when a block is broadcast. The client will come to a totally different hash that doesn't match the one you specified and just reject the block.

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June 29, 2014, 07:15:34 PM
 #45

without the technical side.

your theory is based on the assumption that the hash is accepted as is and checked if it meets the difficulty.

instead the values you send are run through the client, a hash is produced using the algo of the coin, and if that production matches up the block is valid.

so a sha256 hash matching isn't enough, it'll be invalid.

snipped code:

Code:
class CBlockHeader
{

    uint256 GetHash() const
    {
        return Hash9(BEGIN(nVersion), END(nNonce));
    }

};

class CBlock : public CBlockHeader
{

    uint256 GetPoWHash() const
    {
        return GetHash();
    }

};

(you were looking at the gethash function from transactions, not blocks in your above snip)

How will it be invalid? the target and all underlying block data are the same. when the hash is converted to sha256, how would the hash be accepted but rejected if it is short circuited with sha256?

Because sha256d(blockheader) produces a different result to sha256d(other_hashing_algo(blockheader)).

If you assert that it can produce the same, that'd be a sha256 collission and every crypto program which uses sha256 is screwed.

As I said earlier, the checks you are looking at all assume the hash you send is the one being used, when the hash is reproduced by each client when a block is broadcast. The client will come to a totally different hash that doesn't match the one you specified and just reject the block.
you're right I was totally ignoring the difference in the output after x rounds. I didnt thinkit would mean a collision but you are right in the end. Bitcoin doesn't use prngs so the hashes have a certain precision in which they are predictable. If I know correctly understand, its the constant nnonce that makes it all work to produce independently verifiable hashes

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