LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

Any follow up on how it will be pro-rated.  

sonny@butterflylabs.com

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[DeathAndTaxes]

Any follow up on how it will be pro-rated.  

No.

FYPFY.

"Pro-rated" without any contract or at least terms of the pro-rate is utterly worthless.  Just because you are too stupid to realize that doesn't mean others are.

As an example:
http://www.goodyear.com/en-US/services/tire-warranty

Replacement price will be calculated by multiplying the tire’s advertised retail selling price at the time of adjustment, by the percentage of usable original tread that has been worn off. You pay for mounting and balancing, and an amount equal to the current Federal Excise Tax (F.E.T. — U.S. only) and any other applicable taxes and government-mandated charges. EXAMPLE: If your disabled tire had an original 8/32" of usable treadwear and is worn to 4/32" usable tread remaining; you have used 50% and therefore must pay 50% of the advertised price of the comparable tire. In addition, you must pay an amount equal to the full current Federal Excise Tax (U.S. only) or any other applicable taxes and government-mandated charges for the comparable new replacement tire at the time of adjustment. If the price of the new comparable tire is $80, the cost to you would be $40, plus F.E.T. (U.S. only), plus any other applicable taxes and government-mandated charges.

Now this is for tires as cheap at $60 for fucks sake.  $60 tires have a full paragraph to protect both parties interest in the event the pro-rated refund needs to be used.  Yet for a $30K piece of custom hardware something as vague as "will be pro-rated" is sufficient?  Really?  

[RoloTonyBrownTown]

Email him and find out then!     Jesus christ, any excuse for a whinge.

[Raoul Duke]

I love it when the really important questions are left unanswered...

2nd try:

Million bitcoin question: Who will be the escrow?

Leave it unanswered and the scammer accusations will start to flow, and it won't be because of specs!

[TheOtherGuy]

I am still hung up on the 90 day warranty. How can you drop 30k knowing it may not function in 91 days? Can/will they repair it and at what cost?

[rjk]

I am still hung up on the 90 day warranty. How can you drop 30k knowing it may not function in 91 days? Can/will they repair it and at what cost?

+1. Even BFL has stated a 6 month warranty. Most computer manufacturers guarantee their products for at least a year or more.

[Raoul Duke]

I am still hung up on the 90 day warranty. How can you drop 30k knowing it may not function in 91 days? Can/will they repair it and at what cost?

+1. Even BFL has stated a 6 month warranty. Most computer manufacturers guarantee their products for at least a year or more.

If they sold them in Portugal they would need to give a 24 months warranty, wether they liked it or not.
Also, BFL said something about shipping from Germany, so I have good news. If they do that(and they said they would to avoid customs) they must follow European rules, and guess what: 2 years warranty

Thread about it in a gamers forum:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/xbox-360-hardware/475729-2-year-warranty-standard-eu-law.html

The actual law
http://ec.europa.eu/publications/booklets/move/64/index_en.htm Download the document and it's on page 7(pdf page 9)
More info http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/guarantees/index_en.htm

Be aware that some countries may not follow the EU directive yet as they have 7(?) years to make it into law, so Germany could have only 1 year mandatory. At least that was the case in The Netherlands not many years ago.

[ttul]

I think this product would need to be in the $10,000-$15,000 range to garner any real interest.

Would you buy one if it was $15K?

[coblee]

I think this product would need to be in the $10,000-$15,000 range to garner any real interest.

Would you buy one if it was $15K?

That would reduce the break even to 7 months and would make it more competitive. If I have the money, I would buy one. Of course that also depends on how the DRM mining is implemented. It is crucial that once I bought the miner, the miner needs to function even if LargeCoin goes out of business for any reason. In other words, the interface to configure the pools must be on the device itself and not an external website. And if there is a token to unlock the hardware, the unlock must be complete. It shouldn't have to phone home and LargeCoin should not be able to remotely configure or brick the device.

[jamesg]

It is crucial that once I bought the miner, the miner needs to function even if LargeCoin goes out of business for any reason. In other words, the interface to configure the pools must be on the device itself and not an external website. And if there is a token to unlock the hardware, the unlock must be complete. It shouldn't have to phone home and LargeCoin should not be able to remotely configure or brick the device.

Is this how LargeCoin is supposed to work?

Is there a remote kill switch or phone home system?

Thanks,
gigavps

[rjk]

It is crucial that once I bought the miner, the miner needs to function even if LargeCoin goes out of business for any reason. In other words, the interface to configure the pools must be on the device itself and not an external website. And if there is a token to unlock the hardware, the unlock must be complete. It shouldn't have to phone home and LargeCoin should not be able to remotely configure or brick the device.

Is this how LargeCoin is supposed to work?

Is there a remote kill switch or phone home system?

Thanks,
gigavps

Mining is controlled via an online control panel hosted by LargeCoin, which allows you to direct mining shares to the pool of your choice and manage your entire LargeCoin cluster in one convenient place. Each C200 mines at 20GHash/s, consuming a mere 100W. Designed for high density operation, the C200 provides efficient movement of air and is suitable for operating in a fully loaded 42U rack (up to 40 units per rack).

[ttul]

It is crucial that once I bought the miner, the miner needs to function even if LargeCoin goes out of business for any reason. In other words, the interface to configure the pools must be on the device itself and not an external website. And if there is a token to unlock the hardware, the unlock must be complete. It shouldn't have to phone home and LargeCoin should not be able to remotely configure or brick the device.

Is this how LargeCoin is supposed to work?

Is there a remote kill switch or phone home system?

Thanks,
gigavps

No, there's no remote kill, and the phone home function is optional and for your convenience only. Our ASICs have a crypto mechanism that checks a license file that you must supply to the system. The license file specifies how much mining the system will do, in accordance with whatever license you've purchased. For the C200 units we are taking orders for currently, the license will be unlimited.

Without the license mechanism, our only option would be to take payment in full prior to shipping, which is probably less desirable than allowing the customer to receive the unit, run it for a few weeks, and validate everything is working well before submitting payment in full to receive the full-bore license key.

Our goal here is to deal with the well deserved suspicion that any Bitcoin hardware project - particularly one promising an ASIC - is a total scam, as several have been over the past year.

[coblee]

Yes, the hosted solution is quite ridiculous. Who's to know if the miner is actually the one producing the hashes? I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, but for all I know, the miner is pretending to do something and using up 100w and you have a GPU farm sending my pool hashes. And you only have to do that for 90 days.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Of course that also depends on how the DRM mining is implemented. It is crucial that once I bought the miner, the miner needs to function even if LargeCoin goes out of business for any reason. In other words, the interface to configure the pools must be on the device itself and not an external website. And if there is a token to unlock the hardware, the unlock must be complete. It shouldn't have to phone home and LargeCoin should not be able to remotely configure or brick the device.

THIS.

Any crypto or hardware lock which has to phone home ever (even once) is non-viable.  Period.  No exceptions.  To easy to become a casualty of another business failure.

[coblee]

No, there's no remote kill, and the phone home function is optional and for your convenience only. Our ASICs have a crypto mechanism that checks a license file that you must supply to the system. The license file specifies how much mining the system will do, in accordance with whatever license you've purchased. For the C200 units we are taking orders for currently, the license will be unlimited.

Do I have to provide the license file each time the miner boots up or is it unlock once and the miner is plug and play from then on?

[ttul]

...
Now this is for tires as cheap at $60 for fucks sake.  $60 tires have a full paragraph to protect both parties interest in the event the pro-rated refund needs to be used.  Yet for a $30K piece of custom hardware something as vague as "will be pro-rated" is sufficient?  Really?  

To clear things up, the warranty provides for a full refund if the appliance stops working during the warranty period. If there is substantial demand for a longer warranty, we will consider offering one at a reasonable up-front cost. I can understand anyone's concern that a device might stop working before it has earned back its purchase cost.

Yes, the hosted solution is quite ridiculous. Who's to know if the miner is actually the one producing the hashes? I'm not trying to accuse you of anything, but for all I know, the miner is pretending to do something and using up 100w and you have a GPU farm sending my pool hashes. And you only have to do that for 90 days.

Not sure if you're replying to my post, but if you're contributing your hosted mining resources to a pool, there are great mechanisms in place already that ensure the pool submissions are not bullshit.

No, there's no remote kill, and the phone home function is optional and for your convenience only. Our ASICs have a crypto mechanism that checks a license file that you must supply to the system. The license file specifies how much mining the system will do, in accordance with whatever license you've purchased. For the C200 units we are taking orders for currently, the license will be unlimited.

Do I have to provide the license file each time the miner boots up or is it unlock once and the miner is plug and play from then on?

You won't have to supply the file on every boot. Each system has a microcontroller and some nonvolatile storage so that configuration settings persist through reboots.

[DeathAndTaxes]

No, there's no remote kill, and the phone home function is optional and for your convenience only. Our ASICs have a crypto mechanism that checks a license file that you must supply to the system. The license file specifies how much mining the system will do, in accordance with whatever license you've purchased. For the C200 units we are taking orders for currently, the license will be unlimited.

That sounds a lot different than:

Mining is controlled via an online control panel hosted by LargeCoin, which allows you to direct mining shares to the pool of your choice and manage your entire LargeCoin cluster in one convenient place

So which is it?

At first glance the idea of locked hardware rubbed me the wrong way but I see the advantages.  One could pay a deposit, get a rig w/ a time locked license file and after testing decide either to pay full price up front for unlocked rig or pay monthly lease getting new license file periodically.

Still locked or unlocked I would want the rig completely outside the control of LargeCoin.

Why not simply have a license file issued and used locally which has encryption key for either limit the number of blocks/hours/hashes or unlimited mining depending on the encryption key provided.  The whole calling home to a remote server which manages the rigs and "directs" them to a pool of user's choice is a deal killer.

[jamesg]

The whole calling home to a remote server which manages the rigs and "directs" them to a pool of user's choice is a deal killer.

+1

[rjk]

The whole calling home to a remote server which manages the rigs and "directs" them to a pool of user's choice is a deal killer.

+1

Like I said in an earlier post, this functionality could be useful if the user retained control over the actual control/head server sitting at the top of the rack, instead of having it hosted. Anyone spending $30,000 per unit for 40 units can damn well spend another $500 on a cheapo rack mount server to run them.

[ttul]

No, there's no remote kill, and the phone home function is optional and for your convenience only. Our ASICs have a crypto mechanism that checks a license file that you must supply to the system. The license file specifies how much mining the system will do, in accordance with whatever license you've purchased. For the C200 units we are taking orders for currently, the license will be unlimited.

That sounds a lot different than:

Mining is controlled via an online control panel hosted by LargeCoin, which allows you to direct mining shares to the pool of your choice and manage your entire LargeCoin cluster in one convenient place

So which is it?

Both - most customers (we imagine) will prefer to control the system through a nice hosted UI. Others will configure their appliances to connect to a pool and contribute mining shares without any interaction with our control panel service. There will be a way to run the appliance completely independently - we hear you, and will make sure this option is available.

locked or unlocked I would want the rig completely outside the control of LargeCoin.

Why not simply have a license file issued and used locally which has encryption key for either share limit or unlimited mining.  The whole calling home to a remote server which manages the rigs and "directs" them to a pool of user's choice is a deal killer.

As I've written in various posts, after you receive the appliance, you can either connect it to the Internet, in which case it will self-register and obtain a license automatically when you pay the balance; or, you can leave it disconnected and install the license file manually. I think most customers will take the auto-registration route for convenience. After you have paid us and obtained the full license key, there is no need for the system to contact LargeCoin central again, and you will be able to stop this from happening without having any effect on mining.