LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders

[ttul]

As I read the ttul post it pretty much says that the current offering is based on sASIC.

One day someone will build a standard cell based ASIC for Bitcoin mining, and that will cost $5-10M NRE and it will be a monster.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Wow the pricing is a non starter but 200MH/W on a sASIC?  I would have guessed a sASIC would be more like in the 60-80 MH/W range.   That likely means a custom ASIC could be in the 500 MH/W range.  28nm could maybe break the 1 GH/W barrier.  :The entire network using less power than giga farm is using right now.  Yeah the NRE means it won't happen anytime soon but it is pretty nice to consider the future security of Bitcoin.

Higher capital cost and lower energy cost is better security for Bitcoin.  The simple version is the attacker doesn't attack long and defender must defend forever so higher the ratio of capital:operating costs the better for the defender (FPGA, sASIC, ASIC).  The lower the ratio of capital:operating costs the better it is for the attacker (CPU, GPU).

[ttul]

Wow the pricing sucks but 200MH/W on sASIC.  I would have though sASIC would be more like in the 60-80 MH/W range.   That likely means a custom ASIC could be in the 500 MH/W range.  28nm could maybe break the 1 GH/W barrier.    Yeah the NRE means it won't happen anytime soon but it is pretty nice to consider the future security of Bitcoin.

Higher capital cost and lower energy cost is better security for Bitcoin (simple version is attack doesn't attack long and defends must defend forever so lower capital cost and higher energy cost like say CPU is cheaper for attackers).

As I think I said earlier, your mom probably doesn't have a Bitcoin ASIC in her basement computer. This means botnets can't harvest nearly as much horsepower as will be available when ASIC computation is ubiquitous in the Bitcoin network. Just as FPGAs are rapidly growing in prevalence and replacing GPUs, ASICs will eventually replace FPGAs. LargeCoin's goal is stay on top of the ASIC trend and profit over the long run as Bitcoin comes into widespread use.

Bitcoin has been through more hard knocks than most well funded startups could possibly handle, and is still going strong. I don't see a reason why it won't be around in 10 years time, and by then many orders of magnitude larger and more interesting.

[finway]

Shit, this is hot.

[wogaut]

Something was missing from your table:

Still something is missing, the BFL Single (now that it's actually shipping):

Code:

        Icarus (x53)  X6500 (x50)   LargeCoin (x1)   BFL Single (x24)
Hash/s  20 G          20 G          20 G             20 G
Power   1000-1100 W   750-1000 W    100 W            2000 W
Price   $24 600       $25,750       $30,000          $14,400

With the initial investment at about $15k for the 24 BFLs, a LargCoin appliance @ $15,000 would be quite competitive.

And the rig box is not even out yet, so if the actual performance is the same ratio as  with the BFL single (1GH projected, 832MH delivered), the BFL will get you about 42 GH for $30k @ 2.5kW (or probably more kW).

[DeathAndTaxes]

Something was missing from your table:

Still something is missing, the BFL Single (now that it's actually shipping):

Code:

        Icarus (x53)  X6500 (x50)   LargeCoin (x1)   BFL Single (x24)
Hash/s  20 G          20 G          20 G             20 G
Power   1000-1100 W   750-1000 W    100 W            2000 W
Price   $24 600       $25,750       $30,000          $14,400

With the initial investment at about $15k for the 24 BFLs, a LargCoin appliance @ $15,000 would be quite competitive.

And the rig box is not even out yet, so if the actual performance is the same ratio as  with the BFL single (1GH projected, 832MH delivered), the BFL will get you about 42 GH for $30k @ 2.5kW (or probably more kW).

Likely LargeCoin wouldn't even need to be dollar for dollar the same price.  @ $0.10 per kWh the Single costs ~$1700 more per year.  If using AC that is another 30% so $2200.  If the LC was $3,000 more it be better option after little over a year.   When you start to consider the advantages of density, noise, management, plus host cost (and load) is is still competitive at a slightly higher price.

If it is $15K vs $15K it is a no brainer.
If it is $18K vs $15K it is kinda a weigh your options type decision. 
If it is $20K vs $15K you need a good reason (like has to be in a datacenter, you have $0.20+ per kWh, etc). 
If it is $30K vs $15K there is nothing to weigh.

[wogaut]

$30,000 is just a ridiculously high price, but reading through the whole thread it seems ttul is testing willingness of people to buy the box for $15k?    

Would you buy one if it was $15K?

@ DeathAndTaxes:

Yes, $18k seems acceptable, if the LC appliance really can deliver on the promised specs. But if the power requirement really turns out to be closer to 200W (or more) and the performance is say 20% less in the production unit this would be a slightly different picture; in case of the BFL Single it happened...

[runeks]

Also, if LargeCoin only sells to businesses the purchaser can get a VAT refund, at least, in Denmark (where I live), and I suspect also in most other EU countries. It seems almost like a waste of money to *not* purchase this as a business in the EU, where each member state is required to have a minimum VAT rate of 15%.

I'm assuming the prices quoted are ex VAT, thus there would be no refund. (25% VAT where I live)

However, the warranty needs to be sorted out if this is to be sold in Europe. In my country the manufacturer warranty period is three years, where the first 6 months all faults are considered to be from the manufacturing by default (after that the consumer has to show they're not due to wear or negligence).

Also, as far as I can see, the "DRM" issue is moot. Those still believing it to be a problem need to read ttul's posts in more detail (or if we could just get all that info merged into the top post)

My answer to the thread poll would unfortunately be "no". Not because of the price (it's likely not worse compared to keeping my money in the bank) but because of the warranty. Us europeans just shake our heads at the US "90 day warranty" madness.

As VAT tax refunds work, in my country at least, you do pay the 25% VAT to start with, and then get a refund. So you do get a tax refund, but the original price is of course excluding VAT, so it won't cost you less than that (ie. you're just refunded the additional amount you paid).

Do you have a reference for the obligatory three year manufactur's warranty in your country? A reference that specifically mentions that this applies for business-to-business sales?
As I mentioned, it makes no sense to purchase this kind of unit as a private individual and increase ones cost by 25% (because of VAT). So laws governing consumer sales will not apply.

ttul, you have ignored my previous question regarding selling your chips to OEMs who will then include them in smaller products targeted at the private individual. I have a feeling that the number of people willing to invest $500-$1000 in Bitcoin (through such a small device) can bring in a larger sum in total than the number individuals willing to invest $30,000. Can I get you to make a comment on this?

[ttul]

ttul, you have ignored my previous question regarding selling your chips to OEMs who will then include them in smaller products targeted at the private individual. I have a feeling that the number of people willing to invest $500-$1000 in Bitcoin (through such a small device) can bring in a larger sum in total than the number individuals willing to invest $30,000. Can I get you to make a comment on this?

Okay, everyone. We've read the forums, and have carefully considered the ROI calculations that have been submitted by various of you. We have also talked to many of you by telephone. After much research and contemplation, we have decided to offer the first 25 customers who order a C200 unit by April 15 a 50% discount on our initial price of $30,000 per unit to ensure that we can establish trust with an initial group of customers. This means the deposit amount is reduced to $2,250 per unit, and the unit cost is reduced to just $15,000.

This is a fantastic offer, and since sending out an announcement to our list less than an hour ago, we have received

If you wish to make an order, please visit our order form: http://bit.ly/A53ShJ

Q&A

1. What will happen if my order is #26? Will I still get a discount?

No, we are only offering this discount on first first 25 orders received by April 15, 2012. If your order is not in the first 25, or if we receive it after April 15, then you will be placed on a waiting list, which we will fill if someone from the first 25 orders fails to provide their deposit in a timely manner.

2. Will the price be reduced after April 15?

Probably not. We still believe that $30,000 per unit represents good value when you consider the long term growth of Bitcoin and the potential of a difficulty increase to quickly erase any ROI difference with FPGA-based offerings.

3. Will you offer a smaller unit that costs less?

Not until at lease late 2012. For now, we need to focus on shipping to a small number of eager customers who can validate that our technology works, and help to evangelize LargeCoin to a larger audience of smaller customers in future.

4. Can I order more than one unit at this price?

Yes, you can order multiple units. We have placed an arbitrary cap of 5 units per customer; however, if you have a strong interest in ordering more than 5 units at this time, please contact us. We will consider larger orders on a case by case basis.

5. Who will the escrow agent be?

We are still working this out. When we have the escrow details ready, everyone who has filled in our order form will receive an email from us with a copy of the escrow agreement and full details of the escrow agent. Everyone will have plenty of time to do their own diligence on the escrow agent and the agreement before sending any deposit funds.

6. Why should I trust you guys?

You don't have to trust us. Your money will be escrowed, and we won't use any of it until the devices have been validated by an independent third party as ready for shipping. We won't even take your final payment until you have received the product. This is the reason behind our DRM mechanism, which allows you to try the device for 30 days after receiving it, without giving us any money.

PM me or make a post if you have any additional questions not answered here.

[jimbobway]

This is a fantastic offer, and since sending out an announcement to our list less than an hour ago, we have received

Can you finish your sentence?

[wogaut]

OK then, another Q&A item:

Q: Will I get my $2250.- deposit refunded if I am not able to get the initial reduced offer price?

[ttul]

This is a fantastic offer, and since sending out an announcement to our list less than an hour ago, we have received

Can you finish your sentence?

... we have received many orders. We're quickly eating up the first 25, so please fill in the order form soon if you don't want to miss out. In the spirit of openness, we are already at 31 orders and counting, but it's assumed that some people won't fill out the deposit so please do get your order in.

[wogaut]

What is your expected delivery time frame?

And can I get my deposit back if you cannot meet your promised delivery time frame?

[nmat]

What is your expected delivery time frame?

And can I get my deposit back if you cannot meet your promised delivery time frame?

Read the first post.

[ttul]

What is your expected delivery time frame?

And can I get my deposit back if you cannot meet your promised delivery time frame?

Expected delivery is July 2012. If we miss our delivery deadline, then we will return deposits in full.

[Miner612]

This sounds terrible.

No thanks.

[rjk]

This sounds terrible.

No thanks.

Why? For the first 25 customers, it sounds like a deal to me. Shame it will still be so expensive for later customers.

[ttul]

This sounds terrible.

No thanks.

To each his own.

[cablepair]

ttul, you have ignored my previous question regarding selling your chips to OEMs who will then include them in smaller products targeted at the private individual. I have a feeling that the number of people willing to invest $500-$1000 in Bitcoin (through such a small device) can bring in a larger sum in total than the number individuals willing to invest $30,000. Can I get you to make a comment on this?

Okay, everyone. We've read the forums, and have carefully considered the ROI calculations that have been submitted by various of you. We have also talked to many of you by telephone. After much research and contemplation, we have decided to offer the first 25 customers who order a C200 unit by April 15 a 50% discount on our initial price of $30,000 per unit to ensure that we can establish trust with an initial group of customers. This means the deposit amount is reduced to $2,250 per unit, and the unit cost is reduced to just $15,000.

This is a fantastic offer, and since sending out an announcement to our list less than an hour ago, we have received

If you wish to make an order, please visit our order form: http://bit.ly/A53ShJ

Q&A

1. What will happen if my order is #26? Will I still get a discount?

No, we are only offering this discount on first first 25 orders received by April 15, 2012. If your order is not in the first 25, or if we receive it after April 15, then you will be placed on a waiting list, which we will fill if someone from the first 25 orders fails to provide their deposit in a timely manner.

2. Will the price be reduced after April 15?

Probably not. We still believe that $30,000 per unit represents good value when you consider the long term growth of Bitcoin and the potential of a difficulty increase to quickly erase any ROI difference with FPGA-based offerings.

3. Will you offer a smaller unit that costs less?

Not until at lease late 2012. For now, we need to focus on shipping to a small number of eager customers who can validate that our technology works, and help to evangelize LargeCoin to a larger audience of smaller customers in future.

4. Can I order more than one unit at this price?

Yes, you can order multiple units. We have placed an arbitrary cap of 5 units per customer; however, if you have a strong interest in ordering more than 5 units at this time, please contact us. We will consider larger orders on a case by case basis.

5. Who will the escrow agent be?

We are still working this out. When we have the escrow details ready, everyone who has filled in our order form will receive an email from us with a copy of the escrow agreement and full details of the escrow agent. Everyone will have plenty of time to do their own diligence on the escrow agent and the agreement before sending any deposit funds.

6. Why should I trust you guys?

You don't have to trust us. Your money will be escrowed, and we won't use any of it until the devices have been validated by an independent third party as ready for shipping. We won't even take your final payment until you have received the product. This is the reason behind our DRM mechanism, which allows you to try the device for 30 days after receiving it, without giving us any money.

PM me or make a post if you have any additional questions not answered here.

where are you located?
are you licensed to business there?
are you incorporated, llc, self employed ?

[rjk]

where are you located?
are you licensed to business there?
are you incorporated, llc, self employed ?

Seriously? If you signed up for emails, it's right at the bottom. I believe it has been mentioned on the forums as well.