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Author Topic: Got my BFL Single today and I'm raffling it away for 0.5BTC!  (Read 26704 times)
deepceleron
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March 19, 2012, 05:37:26 AM
 #461

  • There is no way to do that anyway. E-mail addresses are free, you know?
  • It wouldn't matter anyway because the original has a link to the paid invoices, so even if the operator was buying tickets himself, it doesn't give him any advantages over anyone else in itself.
I saw you misunderstand this potential fraud method earlier in the thread (anyone else, and I'd say spread disinformation denying this fraud method), so I'll clarify. A raffle operator who buys his own tickets buys them for free, because the money goes out of his pocket and right back into his pocket. If he buys half his own tickets, there is a 50% chance that his fake entries will "win", and he will get to keep the raffle ticket earnings plus not have to ship the prize to anyone.

Real: I earn 200 BTC in ticket sales, and send the prize to someone
Fraud: I earn 200 BTC in ticket sales, and 50% chance I send the prize to someone

In all cases where I recommend disclosure as an anti-fraud mechanism, it is something that you can't make hundreds of for free without detection, such as your forum account here.

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March 19, 2012, 06:45:25 AM
 #462

  • There is no way to do that anyway. E-mail addresses are free, you know?
  • It wouldn't matter anyway because the original has a link to the paid invoices, so even if the operator was buying tickets himself, it doesn't give him any advantages over anyone else in itself.
I saw you misunderstand this potential fraud method earlier in the thread (anyone else, and I'd say spread disinformation denying this fraud method), so I'll clarify. A raffle operator who buys his own tickets buys them for free, because the money goes out of his pocket and right back into his pocket. If he buys half his own tickets, there is a 50% chance that his fake entries will "win", and he will get to keep the raffle ticket earnings plus not have to ship the prize to anyone.

Real: I earn 200 BTC in ticket sales, and send the prize to someone
Fraud: I earn 200 BTC in ticket sales, and 50% chance I send the prize to someone

In all cases where I recommend disclosure as an anti-fraud mechanism, it is something that you can't make hundreds of for free without detection, such as your forum account here.
But there's also a 50% chance that he has to send 100 BTC out of his own pocket to another person, if they win.
deepceleron
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March 19, 2012, 10:09:45 AM
 #463

  • There is no way to do that anyway. E-mail addresses are free, you know?
  • It wouldn't matter anyway because the original has a link to the paid invoices, so even if the operator was buying tickets himself, it doesn't give him any advantages over anyone else in itself.
I saw you misunderstand this potential fraud method earlier in the thread (anyone else, and I'd say spread disinformation denying this fraud method), so I'll clarify. A raffle operator who buys his own tickets buys them for free, because the money goes out of his pocket and right back into his pocket. If he buys half his own tickets, there is a 50% chance that his fake entries will "win", and he will get to keep the raffle ticket earnings plus not have to ship the prize to anyone.

Real: I earn 200 BTC in ticket sales, and send the prize to someone
Fraud: I earn 200 BTC in ticket sales, and 50% chance I send the prize to someone

In all cases where I recommend disclosure as an anti-fraud mechanism, it is something that you can't make hundreds of for free without detection, such as your forum account here.
But there's also a 50% chance that he has to send 100 BTC out of his own pocket to another person, if they win.
Perhaps you should re-think what you are saying here? Nobody gets sent any BTC, the raffle prize is what is shipped (such as the BFL single). The raffle organizer keeps all bitcoins people send him to buy raffle tickets. The raffle organizer has promised to ship the prize to a winner at the end of the raffle. However, to defraud, he just buys many fake tickets, essentially for free, to reduce the chance of a legitimate winner. If he wins himself, he doesn't have to ship the prize to anybody - even if the ticket sales and picking method are done by someone else. If he doesn't win himself, it cost nothing extra to attempt to defraud all legitimate entrants, and he does what the raffle promised, ship the prize to the winner.

Matthew N. Wright
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March 19, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
 #464

Perhaps you should re-think what you are saying here? Nobody gets sent any BTC, the raffle prize is what is shipped (such as the BFL single). The raffle organizer keeps all bitcoins people send him to buy raffle tickets. The raffle organizer has promised to ship the prize to a winner at the end of the raffle. However, to defraud, he just buys many fake tickets, essentially for free, to reduce the chance of a legitimate winner. If he wins himself, he doesn't have to ship the prize to anybody - even if the ticket sales and picking method are done by someone else. If he doesn't win himself, it cost nothing extra to attempt to defraud all legitimate entrants, and he does what the raffle promised, ship the prize to the winner.

That's true, and I thought about that before I did the raffle and the ultimate conclusion was that there is absolutely no logical way to confirm who is who. Email addresses don't mean anything, and neither do bitcoin wallet addresses.

DeathAndTaxes
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March 19, 2012, 01:02:04 PM
 #465

But there's also a 50% chance that he has to send 100 BTC out of his own pocket to another person, if they win.

Maybe a more extreme example will help you see the logical fallacy.

Say I have a BFL Single.
Say in a fair auction this will net 1000 BTC in tickets.
I buy 100,000 BTC in tickets from me.  Cost = 0 BTC (moving BTC from one hand to another).

Chance I will win the BFL Single 99%.
99% of the time I will win my own Single and collect 1000 BTC in real tickets.
1% of the time someone else will win the Single and I still collect 1000 BTC in real tickets.

Ultimately using block chain can only ensure the drawing is fair.  If the raffle operator is stuffing the ticket box you will still "lose" fair drawing or not.

Note: nothing should be taken to indicate Matthew "stuffed" his own raffle just pointing out that there is no cost to the operator to do so.  There really is no way to avoid such a situation.  Even using something like OTC signatures only ensures the operator isn't buying tickets directly.  He/she could still be using a proxy.

On edit:  DUH.  There is an obvious solution to ensure operator acts fairly.  A fixed # of tickets.   If the acution has a preset limit on # of tickets then there is no economic value in the operator "buying" tickets for himself.
dab
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March 19, 2012, 03:51:09 PM
 #466

Does bit-pay not take anything in Fees?
Fiyasko
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March 19, 2012, 05:14:45 PM
 #467

Well shit. I mayaswell try for it

http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=DingoRabiit&sign=ANY&type=RECV <-My Ratings
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.0 GAWminers and associated things are not to be trusted, Especially the "mineral" exchange
NothinG
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March 19, 2012, 05:33:06 PM
 #468

Well shit. I mayaswell try for it
The raffle is already over. :\

Matthew N. Wright
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March 19, 2012, 05:52:37 PM
 #469

Well shit. I mayaswell try for it
The raffle is already over. :\

lawl irl

chris200x9
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March 19, 2012, 06:23:45 PM
 #470

Well shit. I mayaswell try for it
The raffle is already over. :\

lawl irl

So is it not over, is that why you lawling in real life?
Matthew N. Wright
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March 19, 2012, 06:54:54 PM
 #471

Well shit. I mayaswell try for it
The raffle is already over. :\

lawl irl

So is it not over, is that why you lawling in real life?

No, I was laughing because he first said "Screw this!", then he waited till after it was over to get involved.  Cry

It's funny.

The BFL Single is being sent out to Estonia. Stay tuned for another raffle.

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