Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash: Boeing 777 Crashed in Ukraine Near Russian Border

[Daniel91]

Here you can watch Unconfirmed video of Malaysian MH17 plane being shot down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q2__0Lo0bo

This is not the 777 it is the first plane they shot down, Ukrainian army AN-26

OK sorry my mistake.
This video is just published on main Croatian news online portal and I copied this info here believing that is authentic.

[Grinder]

This is true. The whole story looks like one of those conspiracy theories. Everybody rushed to blame Russia and the separatists, although they did not have a capability to do such thing.

How do you know you didn't create a conspiracy theory right there? According to ITAR-TASS the rebels have earlier claimed to have the necessary missiles. Why do you believe the claims the rebels have made after the fact, and implicitly discard the ones they made before they understood the consequences of this event?

[Balthazar]

This is true. The whole story looks like one of those conspiracy theories. Everybody rushed to blame Russia and the separatists, although they did not have a capability to do such thing.

How do you know you didn't create a conspiracy theory right there? According to ITAR-TASS the rebels have earlier claimed to have the necessary missiles. Why do you believe the claims the rebels have made after the fact, and implicitly discard the ones they made before they understood the consequences of this event?

Because having missiles isn't enough to use them. It's not a crossbow, you need 1-2 years of appropriate education before you'll be able to take down anything. I think it's clear for anybody who have some brain inside his skull.

[Paya]

Ukraine however had previously shot down a Russian plane - in 2001 - apparently by mistake, using the same type of rocket which was evidently used in this case.

Russian airliner in this case has been shot down by Ukrainian S-200 long range missile. We don't know what SAM type brought down Malasyian aircraft. Yes, Kiev claims it was Buk, but it may be because they knew that rebels have captured some of those couple of weeks ago. Convenient, isn't it?

On the other hand, fact that rebels were bragging about those captured Buk launchers and now they're saying that they don't have anything other than MANPADS, is also highly suspicious.

[Grinder]

Because having missiles isn't enough to use them. It's not a crossbow, you need 1-2 years of appropriate education before you'll be able to take down anything.

You probably just made that number up, or at best heard it somewhere and believe it because it fits with your opinion. I've been in the army myself, and although I don't know anything about this system in particular, I know that this kind of stand alone equipment is made to be usable by idiots with very little training. The army will make everyone repeat at the same tasks for months, but the basic functionality is learned in days or even hours.

[Alex077]

A Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU -8.89% ....

"All roads lead to the Russians to some degree," said a U.S. official.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-over-ukrainian-airspace-1405612373?mod=trending_now_1

And that freedom fighters say they didn't and couldn't shoot that plane is disregarded, while Ukrainians' claim is takes as an absolute truth. They also have nothing to gain from it.
In any case, I'd say that:

"All roads lead to the Americans to some degree,"

or they wouldn't be commenting and laying the blame even before the investigations is launched. Russia doesn't, playing by the rules.

Named your information generators. -----Russia tooday, and Girkin  in a contact.- (VK ).....))).
You  in general try to prove that international terrorists  GIRKIN,   Bezler (бeзлep) being the agents of GRU Russia, and FSB ,, citizens of russia-----  innocent sheeps.
And they  are political figures,on a level  with Obama or  or Poroshenko....!!!!!

[Nemo1024]

Named your information generators. -----Russia tooday, and Girkin  in a contact.- (VK ).....))).

My sources of information are actions by Nuland, Biden, Obama. You do know that actions speak stronger than words?

Now, on to more real actions of a real country:

Lavrov: Russia won’t take control of Malaysian plane’s black boxes
http://rt.com/news/173820-ukraine-plane-black-boxes/

Moscow has no plans to seize the flight recorders from the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17, which crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said.

The seizure of flight records would violate international law as it’s up to relevant international agencies to investigate of the incident, he explained.

Russia, unlike US, follows the international law, sadly almost always to its own detriment. But for Russia, honour comes first.

[BCEmporium]

Until this gets sorted out it's just theories, but if it comes for the pro-Russian separatists to be responsible it may mean the end of the Ukrainian war. Moscow won't be able to keep assist the separatists and on their own they won't be standing long.

[sana8410]

At least they know where it is this time. I wonder how long CNN will cover it for. ....remember a few months ago another airplane who was going to Malaysia disappear

If it leads to war, then for at least several years afterwards. This is like the incident with Archduke Franz Ferdinand which lead to World War I. That is, if it was an actual missile attack by the pro-Russian separatists.

[umair127]

They will cover it until it is known what happened. CNN's reporting on any given topic is negatively correlated with the amount of accurate information available on that topic.

[Paya]

Because having missiles isn't enough to use them. It's not a crossbow, you need 1-2 years of appropriate education before you'll be able to take down anything.

You probably just made that number up, or at best heard it somewhere and believe it because it fits with your opinion. I've been in the army myself, and although I don't know anything about this system in particular, I know that this kind of stand alone equipment is made to be usable by idiots with very little training. The army will make everyone repeat at the same tasks for months, but the basic functionality is learned in days or even hours.

Army in which I was serving doesn't have Buk, but I had a chance to chat with some guys working with S-125 Neva medium range SAM. IIRC, their training starting from first theory lessons to live missile launch took somewhere between 4-5 months. Buk is newer and probably simpler but it's still impossible to learn to properly use it so fast. Unless, of course, rebels had people who were already trained.

Anyway, 1-2 years of education doesn't make sense either. SAMs are sophisticated and relatively complicated combat systems, but not *that* much.

[sana8410]

They will cover it until it is known what happened. CNN's reporting on any given topic is negatively correlated with the amount of accurate information available on that topic.

Sounds about right, also sounds about right for our other major TV news networks like MSNBC and Fox; even CBS and ABC even if they have a decent program here and there.

[Nemo1024]

Until this gets sorted out it's just theories, but if it comes for the pro-Russian separatists to be responsible it may mean the end of the Ukrainian war. Moscow won't be able to keep assist the separatists and on their own they won't be standing long.

Applying a Texas accent: "That's the plan, m'boy."


Some news from Russian sources:

Prime Minister of People's Republic of Donetsk cannot confirm finding of the "black boxes" (which in reality, by the way, are orange). Experts from OSCE are working on the ground, as well as Ukrainian specialists. PRD is conducting negotiations to allow relatives of the diseased to come to the crash site.
http://www.interfax.ru/world/386594


Russian Ministry of Defence reports registering activity from Ukrainian battery "Kupol" (Dome), which is a part of Buk-M1 system:
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/07/18/buk/


An Australian family lost relatives in both Malaysian Airlines disasters:
http://www.gazeta.ru/social/news/2014/07/18/n_6320857.shtml
http://www.smh.com.au/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-shot-down-over-ukraine-near-russian-border-20140718-3c4nl.html

[Balthazar]

Because having missiles isn't enough to use them. It's not a crossbow, you need 1-2 years of appropriate education before you'll be able to take down anything.

You probably just made that number up, or at best heard it somewhere and believe it because it fits with your opinion. I've been in the army myself, and although I don't know anything about this system in particular, I know that this kind of stand alone equipment is made to be usable by idiots with very little training. The army will make everyone repeat at the same tasks for months, but the basic functionality is learned in days or even hours.

Telling me that my father is an idiot it's not a good way to start a discussion. However, your point of view on anti-aircraft missile complexes is pretty funny, but this topic's purpose is far away from entertainment.

BUK system is a complex of 4 units

• management unit
• radar station
• firing unit
• charge unit

It is doubtful that idiots can teach this in the short term. Also doubtful that anybody will provide them with a missile complex, which worth over $3 million. Of course it's possible that they've have stolen one of units owned by ukrainian army... But they need to have all of units fully operational, otherwise it will be nothing more than costly junk.

[umair127]

They will cover it until it is known what happened. CNN's reporting on any given topic is negatively correlated with the amount of accurate information available on that topic.

Sounds about right, also sounds about right for our other major TV news networks like MSNBC and Fox; even CBS and ABC even if they have a decent program here and there.

It sounded like several times on CNN it was said that some pro-Russian separatists were showing off that they captured a Buk weapons system from a base in Ukraine. Can anyone verify this?

[Nemo1024]

They will cover it until it is known what happened. CNN's reporting on any given topic is negatively correlated with the amount of accurate information available on that topic.

Sounds about right, also sounds about right for our other major TV news networks like MSNBC and Fox; even CBS and ABC even if they have a decent program here and there.

It sounded like several times on CNN it was said that some pro-Russian separatists were showing off that they captured a Buk weapons system from a base in Ukraine. Can anyone verify this?

It was at least refuted today by Ukrainian Prosecutor General:
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405666465


In other news: Two NATO radar AWACS planes were in the air in Poland and Romania at the moment of the disaster.
http://itar-tass.com/proisshestviya/1327831
However the planes might have been too far away to see what happened.

[Grinder]

Telling me that my father is an idiot it's not a good way to start a discussion. However, your point of view on anti-aircraft missile complexes is pretty funny, but this topic's purpose is far away from entertainment.

I don't really care how clever you need to think your dad is. It's not a "missile complex", it's a tank or truck with rockets and support equipment mounted on it. It needs to be able to be ready to fire in pretty much seconds, so it has to be easy to use.

[noviapriani]

This is the sort of thing than can start a major war.Rebels fighting against Ukraine and supplied by Russia are the suspects. Bodies reported all over the ground for miles. What a tragedy.  But how can Russia afford to arm the rebels when the country is suffering from crushing sanctions?

[zolace]

CNN reporting that senior US intelligence officials have confirmed the aircraft was intentionally shot down by a surface to air missile system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6LUueumxxA#t=53

[Nemo1024]

Telling me that my father is an idiot it's not a good way to start a discussion. However, your point of view on anti-aircraft missile complexes is pretty funny, but this topic's purpose is far away from entertainment.

I don't really care how clever you need to think your dad is. It's not a "missile complex", it's a tank or truck with rockets and support equipment mounted on it. It needs to be able to be ready to fire in pretty much seconds, so it has to be easy to use.

Yes, it is. As Balthazar said, it's several trucks on wheels making up a missile complex:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%F3%EA-%CC1-2
http://vorotila.ru/Item67754/BukM12-zenitno-raketnyy-kompleks-sredney-dalnosti

This is Buk:

And this is Buk:

Here is the complex: