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Author Topic: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Crash: Boeing 777 Crashed in Ukraine Near Russian Border  (Read 51910 times)
Nemo1024
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August 04, 2014, 05:44:35 PM
 #561

More puzzling together of the broken pieces:
https://twitter.com/EzraBraam

“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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August 06, 2014, 08:14:50 PM
 #562

Holland stopped body salvage operation at the crash site due to danger to the investigators:
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/08/06/boeing2/

“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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August 06, 2014, 10:07:42 PM
 #563

What's the final verdict?

Who shoot it down?
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August 06, 2014, 10:32:11 PM
 #564

What's the final verdict?

Who shoot it down?

That who can made it with small air-air missile.

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August 07, 2014, 08:05:41 AM
 #565

This had to be expected. No SAM's smoke trail evidenced, no satellite imagery shown, and no more hysterics in the news about evil Russians shooting down a civilian airliner.
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August 07, 2014, 08:36:18 AM
 #566

What's the final verdict?

Who shoot it down?

Looks like a give up status
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-07/dutch-pm-calls-halt-to-recovery-effort-at-mh17-crash-site/5653946

The Netherlands has announced it will halt the mission to recover victims and debris from the MH17 crash site due to increased fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russian rebels.

The Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte says the risk posed to the team of 70 Australian, Dutch and Malaysian experts is too great to continue working in the area.

Shooting near the crash zone overnight forced investigators to shelter, proving just one incident too many for officials.

"We have done what we could under the current circumstances."

"When search and security conditions improve, we will conduct a final inspection to ensure that we have recovered all identifiable remains," he said in a statement. 


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August 07, 2014, 10:30:56 AM
Last edit: August 07, 2014, 10:47:29 AM by Nemo1024
 #567

Shooting near the crash zone overnight forced investigators to shelter, proving just one incident too many for officials.

Ukrainian artillery can report mission as accomplished.

By the fact that MH-17 disaster faded into non-existence in the MSM, it seems that it'll by just another unsolved crime.
The fact that the ATC tapes have still not been released by the SBU is extremely telling as well.

In the case of Korean KAL-007, Tokyo ATC tapes were one of the major evidences, pointing out that the plane communicated on VHF radio, within the tower's VHF range up to 46 minutes after it was "officially" shot down. Coupled with the debris found along the coast of Honshu, hundreds of kilometres up the prevailing strong current, it constituted the evidence that KAL-007 was shot down or, more likely, exploded by a bomb off the coast of Honshu, within 6 minute of flight from Niigata.

Looks like the relatives of the victims of MH-17 need to form an association and seek the truth privately, just like the relatives of the victims of KAL-007 did.

“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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August 07, 2014, 10:43:57 AM
 #568

Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts
August 3, 2014

Exclusive: From magazine covers to pronouncements by top politicians, Official Washington jumped to the conclusion that Ukrainian rebels and Russia were guilty in the shoot-down of a Malaysian passenger plane. But some U.S. intelligence analysts may see the evidence differently, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

Contrary to the Obama administration’s public claims blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, some U.S. intelligence analysts have concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame, according to a source briefed on these findings.

This judgment – at odds with what President Barack Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry have expressed publicly – is based largely on the absence of U.S. government evidence that Russia supplied the rebels with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system that would be needed to hit a civilian jetliner flying at 33,000 feet, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

President Barack Obama delivers a statement on the situation in Ukraine, on the South Lawn of the White House, July 29, 2014. (Official White House Photo by Lawrence Jackson)
President Barack Obama delivers a statement on the situation in Ukraine, on the South Lawn of the White House, July 29, 2014. (Official White House Photo by Lawrence Jackson)
Despite U.S. spy satellites positioned over eastern Ukraine, U.S. intelligence agencies have released no images of a Buk system being transferred by Russians to rebel control, shipped into Ukraine, deployed into firing position and then being taken back to Russia. Though the Obama administration has released other images of Ukraine taken by U.S. spy satellites, the absence of any photos of a rebel-controlled Buk missile battery has been the dog not barking in the strident case that Official Washington has made in blaming the rebels and Russia for the July 17 shoot-down that killed 298 people.

Given the size of these missile batteries – containing four 16-foot-long missiles – the absence of this evidence prompted caution among U.S. intelligence analysts even as senior U.S. officials and the U.S. mainstream media rushed to judgment blaming the rebels and Russians.

In making that case, Kerry and other senior officials relied on claims made by the Ukrainian government along with items posted on “social media.” These snippets of “evidence” included ambiguous remarks attributed to rebels who may have initially thought the shoot-down was another of their successful attacks on lower-flying Ukrainian military aircraft but who later insisted that they had not fired on the Malaysian plane and lacked the longer-range Buk missiles needed to reach above 30,000 feet.

If the U.S. intelligence analysts are correct – that the rebels and Russia are likely not responsible – the chief remaining suspect would be the Ukrainian government, which does possess Buk anti-aircraft missiles and reportedly had two fighter jets in the vicinity of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 at the time of the shoot-down.

Some independent analyses of the initial evidence from the crash site suggest the jetliner may have been destroyed by an air-to-air attack, not by an anti-aircraft missile fired from the ground. Yet, the working hypothesis of the U.S. intelligence analysts is that a Ukrainian military Buk battery and the jetfighters may have been operating in collusion as they hunted what they thought was a Russian airliner, possibly even the plane carrying President Vladimir Putin on a return trip from South America, the source said.

The source added that the U.S. intelligence analysis does not implicate top Ukrainian officials, such as President Petro Poroshenko or Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, suggesting that the attack may have been the work of more extremist factions, possibly even one of the Ukrainian oligarchs who have taken an aggressive approach toward prosecuting the war against the ethnic Russian rebels in the east.

Obviously, a successful shoot-down of a Russian plane, especially one carrying Putin, could have been a major coup for the Kiev regime, which ousted Russian ally, President Viktor Yanukovych, last February touching off the civil war. Some prominent Ukrainian politicians, such as ex-Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko, have expressed the desire to kill Putin.

“It’s about time we grab our guns and kill, go kill those damn Russians together with their leader,” Tymoshenko said in an intercepted phone call in March, according to a leak published in the Russian press and implicitly confirmed by Tymoshenko.

The Shoot-Down Mystery

The Malaysia Airlines plane, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, was not expected to be over the eastern part of Ukraine on the afternoon of July 17, but was rerouted to avoid bad weather. The plane was nearing Russian airspace when it was shot down.

Some early speculation had been that the Ukrainian military might have mistaken the plane for a Russian spy plane and attacked it in a scenario similar to the Soviet shoot-down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 in 1983 after misidentifying it as a U.S. spy plane.

In the two-plus weeks since the Ukrainian air disaster, there have been notable gaps between the more measured approach taken by U.S. intelligence analysts and the U.S. politicians and media personalities who quickly rushed to the judgment blaming the rebels and Russia.

Only three days after the crash, Secretary of State Kerry did the rounds of the Sunday talk shows making what he deemed an “extraordinary circumstantial” case supposedly proving that the rebels carried out the shoot-down with missiles provided by Russia. He acknowledged that the U.S. government was “not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for Russia to be responsible.”

By then, I was already being told that the U.S. intelligence community lacked any satellite imagery supporting Kerry’s allegations and that the only Buk missile system in that part of Ukraine appeared to be under the control of the Ukrainian military. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine?”]

On the Tuesday after Kerry’s Sunday declarations, mainstream journalists, including for the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post, were given a senior-level briefing about the U.S. intelligence information that supposedly pointed the finger of blame at the rebels and Russia. But, again, much of the “evidence” was derived from postings on “social media.”

The Los Angeles Times article on the briefing took note of the uncertainties: “U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [the Buk anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.”

That reference to a possible “defector” may have been an attempt to reconcile the U.S. government’s narrative with the still-unreleased satellite imagery of the missile battery controlled by soldiers appearing to wear Ukrainian uniforms. But I’m now told that U.S. intelligence analysts have largely dismissed the “defector” possibility and are concentrating on the scenario of a willful Ukrainian shoot-down of the plane, albeit possibly not knowing its actual identity.

A Hardened Conventional Wisdom

Nevertheless, even as the mystery of who shot down Flight 17 deepened, the U.S. conventional wisdom blaming Putin and the rebels hardened. The New York Times has reported Russia’s culpability in the airline disaster as flat-fact.

On July 29, Obama prefaced his announcement of tougher sanctions against Russia by implicitly blaming Putin for the tragedy, too. Reading a prepared statement, Obama said: “In the Netherlands, Malaysia, Australia, and countries around the world, families are still in shock over the sudden and tragic loss of nearly 300 loved ones senselessly killed when their civilian airliner was shot down over territory controlled by Russian-backed separatists in Ukraine.  …

“Since the shoot-down, however, Russia and its proxies in Ukraine have failed to cooperate with the investigation and to take the opportunity to pursue a diplomatic solution to the conflict in Ukraine. These Russian-backed separatists have continued to interfere in the crash investigation and to tamper with the evidence. They have continued to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft in the region. And because of their actions, scores of Ukrainian civilians continue to die needlessly every day.” [Emphasis added.]

Though one could argue that Obama was rhetorically tip-toeing around a direct accusation that the rebels and Russia were responsible for the Malaysia Airlines shoot-down, his intent clearly was to leave that impression. In other words, Obama was pandering to the conventional wisdom about Russian guilt and was misleading the American people about what the latest U.S. intelligence may suggest.

It’s also grotesquely deceptive to blame the Russians and the rebels for the indiscriminate shelling by government forces that have claimed hundreds of lives in eastern Ukraine. The rebels have been resisting what they regard as an illegitimate coup regime that, with the aid of neo-Nazi militias from western Ukraine, overthrew elected President Yanukovych in February and then moved to marginalize and suppress the ethnic Russian population in the east.

By presenting the conflict in a one-sided way, Obama not only misled Americans about the origins of the Ukraine crisis but, in effect, gave the Kiev regime a green light to slaughter more ethnic Russians. By pointing the finger of blame at Moscow for all the troubles of Ukraine, Obama has created more geopolitical space for Kiev to expand its brutal onslaught that now has included reported use of poorly targeted ballistic missiles against population centers.

Obama’s covering for the Kiev regime is even more outrageous if the U.S. intelligence analysts are right to suspect that Ukrainian forces were behind the Flight 17 shoot-down.

And as for who’s been responsible for destroying evidence of the Flight 17 shoot-down, an assault by the Ukrainian military on the area where the plane crashed not only delayed access by international investigators but appears to have touched off a fire that consumed plane debris that could have helped identify the reasons for the disaster.

On Saturday, the last paragraph of a New York Times story by Andrew E. Kramer reported that “the fighting ignited a fire in a wheat field that burned over fuselage fragments, including one that was potentially relevant to the crash investigation because it had what appeared to be shrapnel holes.” The shrapnel holes have been cited by independent analysts as possible evidence of an attack by Ukrainian jetfighters.

Accepting Reality

Yet, given how far the U.S. political/media establishment has gone in its Flight 17 judgment pinning the blame on the rebels and Russia even before an official investigation was started, it’s not clear how those power-brokers would respond if the emerging analysis fingering Ukrainian forces turns out to be correct.

The embarrassment to high-level U.S. officials and prominent mainstream U.S. news outlets would be so extreme that it is hard to believe that the reality would ever be acknowledged.  Indeed, there surely will be intense pressure on airline investigators and intelligence analysts to endorse the Putin-is-to-blame narrative.

And, if the investigators and analysts won’t go that far, they might at least avoid a direct contradiction of the conventional wisdom by suggesting that the Flight 17 mystery remains unsolved, something for historians to unravel.

Such has been the pattern in other cases of major mainstream mistakes. For instance, last year, some of the same players, including Secretary Kerry and the New York Times, jumped to conclusions blaming the Syrian government for an Aug. 21 sarin gas attack that killed hundreds of people in a Damascus suburb.

On Aug. 30, Kerry gave a bellicose speech filled with “we knows” but providing no verifiable evidence. A punitive U.S. bombing campaign against the Syrian government was averted at the last minute when President Obama decided to first seek congressional approval and then accepted President Putin’s assistance in working out a deal in which the Syrian government surrendered all its chemical weapons while still denying a role in the Aug. 21 incident.

Only later did much of Kerry’s case fall apart as new evidence pointed to an alternative explanation, that extremist Syrian rebels released the sarin as a provocation to push Obama across his “red line” and into committing the U.S. military to the Syrian civil war on the side of the rebels. But neither U.S. officialdom nor the mainstream U.S. press has acknowledged the dangerous “group think” that almost got the United States into another unnecessary war in the Middle East. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “The Collapsing Syria-Sarin Case.”]

It may seem cynical to suggest that the powers-that-be in Official Washington are so caught up in their own propaganda that they would prefer the actual killers of innocent people – whether in Syria or Ukraine – to go unpunished, rather than to admit their own mistakes. But that is often how the powerful react. Nothing is more important than their reputations.

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August 07, 2014, 10:46:19 AM
 #569

Shooting near the crash zone overnight forced investigators to shelter, proving just one incident too many for officials.

Ukrainian artillery can report mission as accomplished.

By the fact that MH-17 disaster faded into non-existence in the MSM, it seems that it'll by just another unsolved crime.
The fact that the ATC tapes have still not been released by the SBU is extremely telling as well.

In the case of Korean KAL-007, Tokyo ATC tapes were one of the major evidences, pointing out that the plane communicated on VHF radio, within the tower's VHF range up to 46 minutes after it was "officially" shot down. Coupled with the debris found along the coast of Honshu, hundreds of kilometres up the prevailing strung current, it constituted the evidence that KAL-007 was shot down or, more likely, exploded by a bomb off the coast of Honshu, within 6 minute of flight from Niigata.

Looks like the relatives of the victims of MH-17 need to form an association and seek the truth privately, just like the relatives of the victims of KAL-007 did.

It has been said that the final results of the investigation into the causes of the MH-17 crash will be reported only in about a year. I think the real causes will never be published in the mass-media though... Cool

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August 07, 2014, 04:57:05 PM
 #570

Shooting near the crash zone overnight forced investigators to shelter, proving just one incident too many for officials.

Ukrainian artillery can report mission as accomplished.

By the fact that MH-17 disaster faded into non-existence in the MSM, it seems that it'll by just another unsolved crime.
The fact that the ATC tapes have still not been released by the SBU is extremely telling as well.

In the case of Korean KAL-007, Tokyo ATC tapes were one of the major evidences, pointing out that the plane communicated on VHF radio, within the tower's VHF range up to 46 minutes after it was "officially" shot down. Coupled with the debris found along the coast of Honshu, hundreds of kilometres up the prevailing strung current, it constituted the evidence that KAL-007 was shot down or, more likely, exploded by a bomb off the coast of Honshu, within 6 minute of flight from Niigata.

Looks like the relatives of the victims of MH-17 need to form an association and seek the truth privately, just like the relatives of the victims of KAL-007 did.

It has been said that the final results of the investigation into the causes of the MH-17 crash will be reported only in about a year. I think the real causes will never be published in the mass-media though... Cool

It is amazing the Airline still continue to operate with no accountability and no responsibility. If it is in US or any western countries, the airline would be sued to bankrupt by now.
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August 08, 2014, 10:10:24 AM
 #571

UN security council blocked Russia's proposal to maintain seize-fire around Boeing crash site (absurdity again):
http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1834160.html

And as expected:

Investigation of the crash has come into a dead-end:
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/08/08/boeing/

“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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August 08, 2014, 11:42:29 AM
Last edit: August 08, 2014, 12:34:13 PM by Balthazar
 #572

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahOF3asOlQ#t=734  Grin
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August 08, 2014, 12:33:39 PM
 #573

damn politic , too much conspiracy in this matter.
200++ people lives sacrifice for stupid reason.

i wonder if they hit USA/England civilian plane or other big country


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August 08, 2014, 12:40:37 PM
 #574

damn politic , too much conspiracy in this matter.
200++ people lives sacrifice for stupid reason.

i wonder if they hit USA/England civilian plane or other big country

In 1988 an Am Flight 103 (a Pan Am transatlantic flight from Frankfurt to Detroit via London) was destroyed by a terrorist bomb above Lockerbie (Scotland).

Quote from a Wikipedia article about this case:

Quote
Following a three-year joint investigation by Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary and the US Federal Bureau of Investigation, arrest warrants were issued for two Libyan nationals in November 1991. In 1999, Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi handed over the two men for trial at Camp Zeist, Netherlands after protracted negotiations and UN sanctions. In 2001, Libyan intelligence officer Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was jailed for the bombing. In August 2009, he was released by the Scottish government on compassionate grounds after being diagnosed with prostate cancer. He died in May 2012, remaining the only person to be convicted for the attack. He had continually protested his innocence.

In 2003, Gaddafi accepted responsibility for the Lockerbie bombing and paid compensation to the families of the victims, although he maintained that he had never given the order for the attack
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August 08, 2014, 06:20:14 PM
 #575

Kiev states conditions, on which it will stop military operations (shooting) at the crash site:
http://lenta.ru/news/2014/08/08/fire/

Shooting will stop as soon as an appropriate request from the international investigation group is made.

What? Wait! They are talking about such request only NOW?

“Dark times lie ahead of us and there will be a time when we must choose between what is easy and what is right.”
“We are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided.”
“It is important to fight and fight again, and keep fighting, for only then can evil be kept at bay, though never quite eradicated.”
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August 09, 2014, 12:55:30 AM
 #576

Too much evidence from the plane wreckage that it was shot down by a ukraine jet. So they will keep trying to disrupt the area.
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August 09, 2014, 12:35:57 PM
 #577

Too much evidence from the plane wreckage that it was shot down by a ukraine jet. So they will keep trying to disrupt the area.

So the news gradually fades away as if nothing has happened at all. I'm curious whether the so-called international community and relatives of the killed passengers will let it go at that?
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August 09, 2014, 10:10:07 PM
 #578

Too much evidence from the plane wreckage that it was shot down by a ukraine jet. So they will keep trying to disrupt the area.

So the news gradually fades away as if nothing has happened at all. I'm curious whether the so-called international community and relatives of the killed passengers will let it go at that?
There is little additional information about the incident. The "case" has largely been solved as to what happened and who is responsible. There is really nothing more to report then what has been reported by the MSM.

I also don't think there is actually any evidence that it was shot down by a Ukraine fighter jet (nor would they have any reason to do that).

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August 09, 2014, 10:24:22 PM
 #579

Too much evidence from the plane wreckage that it was shot down by a ukraine jet. So they will keep trying to disrupt the area.

So the news gradually fades away as if nothing has happened at all. I'm curious whether the so-called international community and relatives of the killed passengers will let it go at that?

Yep that is how news works if it doesn't get aired on the TV then where is the story its not news.
Anyways it will be interesting to see if someone will open the skeletons from this closet later.

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Balthazar
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August 10, 2014, 03:11:25 AM
Last edit: August 10, 2014, 03:49:35 AM by Balthazar
 #580

As for constitution, Russia has several - the Federal one, and constitution for each of the subjects. Also, decide if you want strong Russia with strong constitution or not, because each time Russia becomes stronger, we start seeing the blamestorm and demonization in the Western media, as we see now. British media portrayed Russia positively only twice during the recent times: in 1917 and in 1991, both times Russia was weak, on the verge of collapse.

A federal constitution ? Seem pretty a west inspired thing ? isn't it ?
my point is that a federal constitution isn't a Russian invention...
Lol, who cares about that?

Well... I see that you really have no idea that constitutions and republics have existed a long time before western civilization. As well as federalism, separation of powers and local self-government. Actually it's all Roman Empire inspired things, and western civilization only copied it.  Tongue

So Russia never do anything for freedom... No human right, no rule of law, no thinking of freedom, no strong constitution

Do you really think with Russian philosophy this site would exist ?

False, false, false, and false.

You know, I believe that a site like this one would exist. You seem to be mixing up concepts of freedom of speech and freedom to defame and slander. The first does not imply the second. Yet, if you go to news.rambler.ru or rt.com, you'd see that comments remain uncensored and many of them are, mildly speaking, derogatory of Putin.
It seems that "hologram" should be synonymous for "I've failed my final exams" Cheesy

Hell, at least I know that we'll have anti-HIV or anti-ebola drugs without US.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15690908

By the way... It was the first and, until recent time, the only anti-retroviral agent, which was developed outside of the US. Nikavir is effective against HIV, HTLV and some other retroviruses. In addition to antiretroviral activity, it also has antibacterial activity against Bacillus cereus, Escherichia coli, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, Staphilococcus aureus and unlike AZT, it has no citotoxic, teratogenic or cancerogenic activity.
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