[SHUTTING DOWN] [DiceBitco.in | BE THE BANK ! | 1% House Edge]

[lolled]

I'm sorry that you lost your investments on other sites but that doesn't mean all the rest are the same.

It doesn't mean your site is also a scam, but it also doesn't mean your site is legit. It doesn't actually tell us anything at all about your site.

What it does tell us is that it can be dangerous to trust your coins with third parties. We all knew that already but there's a kind of "it won't happen to me" feeling that happens, even after the short but colourful history of Bitcoin scams we've already seen.

Let's put it this way: you could be running a scam and just waiting for the bankroll to grow a little more before you run off with it. How would we know if that was the case? You can say you're not, but I'm sure DB and DN would both have said the same thing.

Interesting. Can you tell me what you think about Multidice? Could we also be running a scam site in your opinion?

I love this blame shit. Dooglus never said that dogedice is a scam. He just said, no one knows if it is one. If it was that easy to recognize what site is a scam, I guess we would have known about DB or DN. The site never looks like a scam , but its the developer who might due to his human greed make it a scam.

So wouldn't all this scamming lead to an opportunity for someone to establish a business just being an escrow service for sites like this?

Apparently, an escrow doesn't mean a site will be a scam or not. The site developer always have access to seeds and could easily gamble against the investors to steal the funds, but thats the risk investors have to take. Even dooglus could have done that, but there is nothing you can do about it. But no one risks investing in a site and be left with nothing of his investment.

[MICRO]

Interesting. Can you tell me what you think about Multidice? Could we also be running a scam site in your opinion?

I've never heard of MultiDice. Could you be running a scam? Of course you could.

No he couldn't . He just redirects to Primedice if u chose bitcoin and uses his ref link .

I don't like animations thou.

[MultiDice]

Interesting. Can you tell me what you think about Multidice? Could we also be running a scam site in your opinion?

I've never heard of MultiDice. Could you be running a scam? Of course you could.

Thanks, I kind of expected this answer. Well, for all I know you could also be running a huge long term scam, where you build your trust and reputation over long period of time, keep letting others paint yourself as the gambling section guru, the one that had 40 million and didn't run.
I heard you might be considering relaunching JD or any other gambling site, well, again you could potentially lure everyone in to your site, then wait and do a BIG one for say, 50 million.   

[MultiDice]

Interesting. Can you tell me what you think about Multidice? Could we also be running a scam site in your opinion?

I've never heard of MultiDice. Could you be running a scam? Of course you could.

No he couldn't . He just redirects to Primedice if u chose bitcoin and uses his ref link .

I don't like animations thou.

This is only temporary while we work on our new game script. 

[dooglus]

People used to always be asking me on Just-Dice "what's your target? when will you run?". I tried to explain that I didn't have a target and wasn't going to run. At one point I was holding over 50 million dollars' worth of other people's coins and still didn't run - and still they asked "what, are you holding out for $100 million"? Maybe I'm even running a long con, will re-launch Just-Dice, and THEN steal all the coins - so I get it - you can't 100% prove you're trustworthy and it's all just different shades of grey.

Well, for all I know you could also be running a huge long term scam, where you build your trust and reputation over long period of time, keep letting others paint yourself as the gambling section guru, the one that had 40 million and didn't run.
I heard you might be considering relaunching JD or any other gambling site, well, again you could potentially lure everyone in to your site, then wait and do a BIG one for say, 50 million.   

We are saying the same thing, only I said it a couple of hours before you...

[Cluster2k]

I missed the Dice Ninja scam and have recently read up on it.  Sad to see the end of bitcoin gambling sites that allow public investment as practically it's impossible to trust the site:

- Rather than legitimately earn a bitcoin per week the temptation to take the entire or partial bankroll is too great
- A bitcoin per week profit is slow and boring.  Too much temptation to rig betting and then claim some mysterious coding error
- Too tempting to declare the site was hacked and claim 'I haz no bitcoin'
- Site operators know no one is going to report the theft to police.  Money stolen by an illegal operation?  Yeah, the police care.
- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

[theskillzdatklls]

I missed the Dice Ninja scam and have recently read up on it.  Sad to see the end of bitcoin gambling sites that allow public investment as practically it's impossible to trust the site:

- Rather than legitimately earn a bitcoin per week the temptation to take the entire or partial bankroll is too great
- A bitcoin per week profit is slow and boring.  Too much temptation to rig betting and then claim some mysterious coding error
- Too tempting to declare the site was hacked and claim 'I haz no bitcoin'
- Site operators know no one is going to report the theft to police.  Money stolen by an illegal operation?  Yeah, the police care.
- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

you kind of forced me to casually think about adjustments to change this. i'm not saying this would be remotely popular or even possible but what if the house edge was raised to 2%, the site commission raised to 20% and the house max bet raised to 4% (2x kelly)? this would create a ton of action, very volatile swings for investors and so forth. it would encourage whales to bust the site (and have a great time doing so). the site would be making a ton more money much faster making scamming the site still an option just less tempting.

i only thought about this business model for about 3 minutes so i can't say its perfect but tossing it as a rough draft out there. if anyone uses it tho, feel free to pay it forward and ask for further analysis if need be

personally, if i trusted the site operator, id invest a ton in a site like this

[dooglus]

you kind of forced me to casually think about adjustments to change this. i'm not saying this would be remotely popular or even possible but what if the house edge was raised to 2%, the site commission raised to 20% and the house max bet raised to 4% (2x kelly)?

2x kelly is too risky for sane investors, and 2% house edge is too much for any sensible gambler when there are other sites offering 1% edge.

I think you'd have trouble attracting gamblers and investors. But good luck with it!

[theskillzdatklls]

you kind of forced me to casually think about adjustments to change this. i'm not saying this would be remotely popular or even possible but what if the house edge was raised to 2%, the site commission raised to 20% and the house max bet raised to 4% (2x kelly)?

2x kelly is too risky for sane investors, and 2% house edge is too much for any sensible gambler when there are other sites offering 1% edge.

I think you'd have trouble attracting gamblers and investors. But good luck with it!

lol i am way too busy with real life to ever develop or manage a site, despite the fact that i only have about 25 hours of coding experience.

and that model was never meant to be a solution, just to spur interest, development or innovation into methods to create a way to lower the incentive to steal. personally id rather risk my investment at 2x kelly than send it to dmf at the moment

honestly, it seems like trust you or get got. i have a lot of coins on a few choice sites right now but i have a feeling im getting scammed sooner or later. im just such a degen from poker that i can't help myself to take the investment spots.

[suchmoon]

I missed the Dice Ninja scam and have recently read up on it.  Sad to see the end of bitcoin gambling sites that allow public investment as practically it's impossible to trust the site:

- Rather than legitimately earn a bitcoin per week the temptation to take the entire or partial bankroll is too great
- A bitcoin per week profit is slow and boring.  Too much temptation to rig betting and then claim some mysterious coding error
- Too tempting to declare the site was hacked and claim 'I haz no bitcoin'
- Site operators know no one is going to report the theft to police.  Money stolen by an illegal operation?  Yeah, the police care.
- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

To be fair only the first one is somewhat specific to investment sites, due to the potentially larger amount of "stealable" funds in the bankroll than let's say players' funds in non-investment sites. And bet rigging is a very quick path to being outed as a scam, so only idiots like dicebitco.in would try that. Everything else sadly applies to any gambling site or actually almost any site that deals with bitcoin...

[crazy-pilot]

I missed the Dice Ninja scam and have recently read up on it.  Sad to see the end of bitcoin gambling sites that allow public investment as practically it's impossible to trust the site:

- Rather than legitimately earn a bitcoin per week the temptation to take the entire or partial bankroll is too great
- A bitcoin per week profit is slow and boring.  Too much temptation to rig betting and then claim some mysterious coding error
- Too tempting to declare the site was hacked and claim 'I haz no bitcoin'
- Site operators know no one is going to report the theft to police.  Money stolen by an illegal operation?  Yeah, the police care.
- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

To be fair only the first one is somewhat specific to investment sites, due to the potentially larger amount of "stealable" funds in the bankroll than let's say players' funds in non-investment sites. And bet rigging is a very quick path to being outed as a scam, so only idiots like dicebitco.in would try that. Everything else sadly applies to any gambling site or actually almost any site that deals with bitcoin...

It is important to remember that you have somewhat of the same incentives to steal when you have a self-funded bankroll as well. Most larger players will generally withdraw their balance between sessions, however some players will keep their balance in their account over longer periods of time. These balances will, over time accumulate, giving a site operator an incentive to run away with player money. 

[Simon8x]

I missed the Dice Ninja scam and have recently read up on it.  Sad to see the end of bitcoin gambling sites that allow public investment as practically it's impossible to trust the site:

- Rather than legitimately earn a bitcoin per week the temptation to take the entire or partial bankroll is too great
- A bitcoin per week profit is slow and boring.  Too much temptation to rig betting and then claim some mysterious coding error
- Too tempting to declare the site was hacked and claim 'I haz no bitcoin'
- Site operators know no one is going to report the theft to police.  Money stolen by an illegal operation?  Yeah, the police care.
- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

To be fair only the first one is somewhat specific to investment sites, due to the potentially larger amount of "stealable" funds in the bankroll than let's say players' funds in non-investment sites. And bet rigging is a very quick path to being outed as a scam, so only idiots like dicebitco.in would try that. Everything else sadly applies to any gambling site or actually almost any site that deals with bitcoin...

It is important to remember that you have somewhat of the same incentives to steal when you have a self-funded bankroll as well. Most larger players will generally withdraw their balance between sessions, however some players will keep their balance in their account over longer periods of time. These balances will, over time accumulate, giving a site operator an incentive to run away with player money. 

True, but the total gambling balances should be much smaller than the total investment balances, so a lower temptation to do a runner.

[micky123]

Sorry for sparking off such a huge debate.

The only point i was trying to make really, was that it is very difficult to trust any one these days with the amount of scams and stuff abounding. This does not mean that we lose faith in the entire system because of a few bad apples. If this was the case, we would have never tried in the first place! Take due diligence before investing in any site and never invest more than you can afford to lose is my mantra. Faith in humanity is shaken but not should not be given up on altogether. Ok i guess im rambling again. 

[thompete]

Sorry for sparking off such a huge debate.

The only point i was trying to make really, was that it is very difficult to trust any one these days with the amount of scams and stuff abounding. This does not mean that we lose faith in the entire system because of a few bad apples. If this was the case, we would have never tried in the first place! Take due diligence before investing in any site and never invest more than you can afford to lose is my mantra. Faith in humanity is shaken but not should not be given up on altogether. Ok i guess im rambling again. 

A lot of people can invest and afford to lose more. For example, players like AKCoinDigger gamble with swings of 500 BTC and they can afford to lose that. Now even if they invest and lose that, then 500 BTC is a very large amount. Its supposed to be that people invest what they can afford to lose, but to the site owners , it comes as people invest what they want to lose. Its not about few bad apples, but rather a majority of sites that have ended up as scam.

[Dabs]

- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

Why must they stay anonymous? Does it have to be completely anonymous?

For example, if I put up a new site, I probably won't say I run it. But I'll indirectly endorse it. I wonder what kind of reaction I would get.

2x kelly is too risky for sane investors, and 2% house edge is too much for any sensible gambler when there are other sites offering 1% edge.

I think you'd have trouble attracting gamblers and investors. But good luck with it!

How about 1% bankroll (is that 1x kelly?), 1.5% house edge, and 15% commission? Depending on the game, the edge might be higher too. (craps / sic bo / lotto)

[Cluster2k]

- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

Why must they stay anonymous? Does it have to be completely anonymous?

Hiding behind a nick on a forum is still anonymous.  There's anonymous and not anonymous.  One can be 'partially anonymous' like a woman can be partially pregnant.  

It's probably a good idea to stay anonymous when running an illegal gambling site (as per local laws).  None of the public investment sites I've seen are actually registered in jurisdictions where online gambling is legal and the site officially registered and independently audited.  

It's also not a good idea to advertise 'yo, here's my home address' when taking care of a wallet worth a few million dollars.  Bit of a security risk, if you know what I mean.

[Dondie]

How many years did Dicebitcoin operated before it closed down?

[thompete]

How many years did Dicebitcoin operated before it closed down?

It was less than 4-5 months, and in that time they were able to get investments upto 7000 BTC, however their other site litecoin site was operated for longer.

[Dabs]

Hiding behind a nick on a forum is still anonymous.  There's anonymous and not anonymous.  One can be 'partially anonymous' like a woman can be partially pregnant.

Yeah, but nicks, such as yours or mine, have a lot of time invested in them, as well as my identity is linked to this particular nick. So while I'm not completely anonymous, I'm not hard to find.

It's probably a good idea to stay anonymous when running an illegal gambling site (as per local laws).  None of the public investment sites I've seen are actually registered in jurisdictions where online gambling is legal and the site officially registered and independently audited.

I may do that with any new site I launch (as in, use a new nick just for that site) but if I want it to be a little bit more successful, then it would help if I endorse the site, or just run it myself, or claim I run it, but with no need to prove it, for the sake of legality. Or some other variant, well, you know what I mean.

And in the future, I may go get a "real" gambling license, but those things cost money and file paperwork and require audits. The whole point of being provably fair (for players anyway) is to avoid all of that. It started with on-chain games (like SatoshiDice) then evolved later on to off-chain games (it seems everyone else is off-chain now.) But the concept is the same.

It's also not a good idea to advertise 'yo, here's my home address' when taking care of a wallet worth a few million dollars.  Bit of a security risk, if you know what I mean.

I don't have that problem. If you can get to me. Of course, it's not a good idea to openly advertise you are holding a few million dollars. There are other people who live in the same village I do that hold a lot more. I guess, it depends on what one personally has for physical security. Or if he's privately funded by private investors, then he's not revealing anymore than what you can infer from his maximum bet (or maximum profit) that you can see as a player.

[theskillzdatklls]

- Operators of sites must obviously stay anonymous.  This adds to the temptation.

Why must they stay anonymous? Does it have to be completely anonymous?

For example, if I put up a new site, I probably won't say I run it. But I'll indirectly endorse it. I wonder what kind of reaction I would get.

2x kelly is too risky for sane investors, and 2% house edge is too much for any sensible gambler when there are other sites offering 1% edge.

I think you'd have trouble attracting gamblers and investors. But good luck with it!

How about 1% bankroll (is that 1x kelly?), 1.5% house edge, and 15% commission? Depending on the game, the edge might be higher too. (craps / sic bo / lotto)

these are the questions that are good to ask, because its all arbitrary at the end of the day. a 1x kelly in this spot is a 1.5% bankroll if you have a 1.5% edge. sure gamblers may not like a raised edge but if it helped them feel like they weren't gonna get scammed they may take that over a shady site.

put the right chemical formula into the machine and you have a situation that is much higher for the site operators (higher house edge, higher commission, more whale action from bigger bets and investor bankroll volatility) therefore reducing the overall incentive to run. there are always innovations as well beyond those things, such as alternative games to boost site usage, progressive slot machines which i have yet to seen employed effectively and i already know a great idea for that and suggested it multiple times.

it shouldnt have to be that way, ppl should just be legit, but game theory, shitty genetics/ppl/culture are just too strong