bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you?

[inBitweTrust]

Who wants to sign up?

http://www.vhemt.org/

[Erdogan]

Who wants to sign up?

http://www.vhemt.org/

Could it be that some in that movement plan to extinguish themselves, but to not be the first ones out?

[inBitweTrust]

Very disturbing group, and unfortunately, not a satire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

[genjix]

inBitweTrust what's your community? Sound interesting, I want to visit.

I'm not anti ancap ideas, just that I empathise more with market anarchism as a tactic because sometimes the ancap wiki article sounds too fantastical and idealised rather than realistic. especially when it gets into insurance companies and private enforcers which is a big no no for me. I've seen some funky youtube videos where this company A pays that company B blaa blaa - very utopic almost.

[tvbcof]

What would be ideal is what I would term 'honest socialism'.  That is to say, everyone knows in minute detail what is happening with resources at all times and it can be easily verified that the public good is being served and nothing else.  In that case I would be willing to be told "Your tax rate is 80%.  Suck it up."  That is if my remaining 20% was enough to live like a king of course.  Correspondingly, the people sucking off my teat and everyone else would know in no uncertain terms that they are useless fucks and that is why they are in the position they are.  A social priority would be to make sure that there were plenty of avenues available for the moochers to better their condition if they choose, but it would be their choice.  Of course the best one can do sucking off others is to obtain a subsistence existence.

First and foremost would be a society which exhibits what I term 'radical transparency'.  Government service should be mostly a lifelong career.  None of this revolving door bullshit.  One should be able to make a good living and have respect and a solid retirement, but there life is an open book.  One would get into serious trouble for betraying the public trust.  Like forced labor camp.  Just don't do it.

Absent that, I've see some Libertarian-like system as being the safest, and probably the best.  At least even the most dim-witted is going to know with clarity that they need to watch out for the next guy because he's planning to screw you.  As I analyze things, we are on the fast track to 'communitarianism' which is working extremely well for the designers.  The designers are people like Ken Lay who Bill Clinton put President's Council on Sustainable Development.  Things are really picking up steam as a generation of citizens are indoctrination with 'green guilt' and 'world citizenship' and all that crap.  While the sheep are supposed to be seeing some benefit (at least at a flock level) what is happening in the real world is that this shift is serving a lot of powerful interests, and an even greater number of their minions, very well.  Very little of the of the shit taken from the former owners is going to go toward the public good.  Rather it will be that much easier for those who end up with control of value to hand it off to their buddies in exchange for a kickback or a job as VP of some division or whatever when 'public service' is done.

Again, I see no way to move to socialism under a corrupt and opaque system of government.  It is a recipe for disaster and we'll never see even a glimpse of theoretical socialist upside before and oppressive totalitarian klepotocracy takes hold.  Worse still, it will be extraordinarily difficult to shake off.  Maybe impossible.  The more I analyze things, the more I am convinced that we are very much farther down this path than I had been aware of.

[inBitweTrust]

inBitweTrust what's your community? Sound interesting, I want to visit.

I'm not anti ancap ideas, just that I empathise more with market anarchism as a tactic because sometimes the ancap wiki article sounds too fantastical and idealised rather than realistic. especially when it gets into insurance companies and private enforcers which is a big no no for me. I've seen some funky youtube videos where this company A pays that company B blaa blaa - very utopic almost.

You are spot on with identifying and denouncing visions exposed by many ideologies and I empathize with your sentiment to resist certain labels because of your goal to address the issues directly rather than participate in less productive armchair politics. The romanticism espoused by certain trans-humanists , groups like the seasteaders , the zeitgeist movement, the venus project , and others all have an unrealistic and utopian ideals which makes them fascinating but anyone with any real experience living in a anarchistic community realizes there is no end utopia to be realized or even desired.

I live on a Permaculture farm in Costa Rica, in a small community. This isn't a planned anarcho-cap community and the people come from all ages, nationalities, income levels , and politics; albeit higher amounts of anarchists and libertarians exist in our communities than the general population. There are hundreds of these types of communities all over Costa Rica , and Latin America and they naturally just function as anarcho cap communities because we need to get things done and most people here are capitalists. Many Latin American countries, while being somewhat more "socialist" in nature are also inept as well where people naturally live like anarchists outside of the main capital or larger cities. There are some examples of ancho-socialist communes here that I have visited but they don't do as well as ones that embrace capitalism.

Despite the caricatures portrayed by socialists and anarcho-communists on the evils of an-caps and our love of corporations and hatred of the poor, in reality we have many of the same goals and motivations as them, just different methods at accomplishing such goals. We would rather allow a psychopath to identify themselves by not contributing rather than using force to mandate egalitarianism. When a community is kept small, social pressures can have a very powerful effect and we have been successful in running some of the most dangerous, heavily armed druglords out of town without the use of violence and by social pressures and solidarity alone in our community with our non-profit DRO.


P.S>...You certainly are welcome to come and visit and I'll invite you once I finish building my guesthouse for you to crash at.(kinda waiting on bitcoin to rebound before finishing  )


P.S.S... Yes, most planned developments in general are scams and rely on misleading or false promises whether they be Galt's Gulch(WTF was Jeff thinking?) or any traditional development. The key is to buy or homestead property yourself and just work in solidarity with your neighbors rather than manufacture some dream utopia without any effort. 
 

[tvbcof]

Very disturbing group, and unfortunately, not a satire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

I'm pretty in favor of these folks going extinct.

I'd probably lone them my shotgun and help them understand where the brain stem is situated (since a guy who misses makes a mess and it costs a lot of money to re-build their facial tissue into something resembling a human.)

[Beliathon]

Again, I see no way to move to socialism under a corrupt and opaque system of government.

Could not agree more!

It is a recipe for disaster and we'll never see even a glimpse of theoretical socialist upside before an oppressive totalitarian kleptocracy takes hold.

It already has!!!

Modern capitalism IS an oppressive totalitarian kleptocracy! That right there is the main difference between you and I, you believe this system is still redeemable in some way. I do not. Capitalism is absolutely rotten to the core and should be dustbinned just like we did with slavery.

[Beliathon]

I live on a Permaculture farm in Costa Rica, in a small community. This isn't a planned anarcho-cap community and the people come from all ages, nationalities, income levels , and politics; albeit higher amounts of anarchists and libertarians exist in our communities than the general population. There are hundreds of these types of communities all over Costa Rica , and Latin America and they naturally just function as anarcho cap communities because we need to get things done and most people here are capitalists. (...)

Despite the caricatures portrayed by socialists and anarcho-communists on the evils of an-caps and our love of corporations and hatred of the poor...

So you live on a secluded private tropical island community... that's supposed to be some kind of realistic solution for the masses? Really?

If I come over on a raft with nothing but the clothes on my back, will I be welcome with open arms, fed, and given meaningful work? Or turned away to the sea? Or starved to death and left in the streets?

What if I come over on a bigger raft with 900 fellow hungry and desperate poor. How would we be treated in your capitalist island community?

[jonald_fyookball]

it is interesting that Beliathon is the only one here blaming capitalism for the problems of the world.

[inBitweTrust]

So you live on a secluded private tropical island community... that's supposed to be some kind of realistic solution for the masses? Really?

There are certainly some wealthy individuals in my community but , my community isn't private, or closed off from other communities. Our average household salary is much lower than your community, so don't try and paint us as some gated community of rich capitalists.

Yes, most of the "masses" of the world do indeed live like our community. You really need to travel a bit more and see how people live outside the "first" world.

What if I come over on a bigger raft with 900 fellow hungry and desperate poor. How would we be treated in your capitalist island community?

Costa Rica isn't an Island and why do you need to bring over 900 poor souls when we have millions living within us and working in solidarity with us. Yes, we are a small community , but there are hundreds of small communities which we call "towns" all connected to each other.

P.S... Perhaps you would be better off asking questions and learning rather than making assumptions? Additionally, I would be more than happy to introduce you to people with like minded ideologies as you so you can live according to your principles instead of with all us "filthy capitalists".

[tvbcof]

...
Modern capitalism IS an oppressive totalitarian kleptocracy! That right there is the main difference between you and I, you believe this system is still redeemable in some way. I do not. Capitalism is absolutely rotten to the core and should be dustbinned just like we did with slavery.

Bah!  For all intents and purposes I've been left alone by the 'capitalists' (when I've not been working for them for a fairly decent compensation.)  The Koch bros may game the crony capitalist system to get a good deal on natural resources while the public who should reap the compensation gets screwed, but the harm is distributed fairly evenly across society.  Similarly, they may pollute the atmosphere and increase my chances of getting cancer by a few millionths of a percent, but that is not hurting me much.  Yes it sucks and I've been calling it for decades, but I personally feel the effects of having the EPA fuck me raw with unadulterated racketeering under the guise of 'sustainability' much much worse and it is simply because I have obtained something these fuckers want to have control over.  And I worked my ass off for 10 years to be able to afford the thing (some property in this case.)

As for how our socialist 'public health' system treats kids (takend from one of your series of images), it's now damn fortunate not to need one (or more) of special education due to some neurological issues, an inhaler because of asthma, other medications for a variety of autoimmune problems.  Old people somehow happen to have their wealth re-distributed because nearly half of them get cancer or some other extremely expensive condition that cleans them out.  Nobody seems to be quite able to figure out what's going on, but Big Pharma just happens to be making bank.  Funny how that works.  That would be 'social justice' in today's 'socialist' lingo I guess.

Sorry, but the faster we move toward 'socialism', the more fucked up things get and it's turning into an avalanche.

[rugrats]

Huh. We're starting to go in circles now. By your own definition, Paul isn't a libertarian.
Remember what you wrote a few days ago (we've already covered Paul's position on taxes, in case you forget)?

Do you want limited taxation? Then you are a social liberal. Do you want no taxation at all? Then you are a libertarian.

The portion of my post which you've snipped off contained a handful of other examples that proves labeling people with specific ideologies is inaccurate.
Once again, labeling is for census takers and political parties.
You should not let yourself be boxed by labels.
The world isn't conveniently divided between neatly labeled groups of people; we're not players for a sports team.

I meant no disrespect in snipping off your post, it was so much information that it would bloat my post.
I still think we got your message. (no need to quote a list of "4 libertarians that aren't really libertarians")

"Limited taxation" have different meanings obviously, Ron Paul wants less taxation than Obama.
And Obama wants limited taxes. (if you compare it to European standards)

I realize that my example was very bad, I apologize for that.

I never said anything about limiting yourselves to one label. I'm just against people calling themselves "apolitical".
And the usual "I am better than everyone else because I don't belong to any ideology"

You can't pin everything on the 'social democracy' bogeyman, dude.
The definition of left and right in U.S. and Europe is different - it's as simple as that. They inhabit different areas of the political spectrum.
If you are going to peg some historical or traditional aspect of social democracy to the issue (which still doesn't change their differences, btw), then what about the U.S' own socialist policies?

Do you realize that the greatest ever economic development policy in the history of the United States is also the most socialist in the history of the United States?
Lincoln's Homestead Act. Little House on the Prairie, anyone?

The federal government offered citizens (and even advertised in far flung regions of Europe) free land and zero interest loans for farming tools, seeds and fertilizers, payable after harvest. It become the single most powerful source of economic growth in the history of the United States. And yet, the descendants of the main beneficiaries of the Act today are among the most vociferous critics of socialism. Going by your theory, the American right wing should look a whole lotta different today.

And to make things more interesting, another of Lincoln's influential policy, the Civil War Pension program, tied the military to the Republicans for almost a century. And yet, in the last presidential election, Paul had the lion's share of support from military personnel. Another damper on your theory.

Look, at this stage, I know my words won''t change your mind. But keep an open mind, and don't create unnecessary internal barriers.

We can discuss European and American politics for years and still not understand it completely. Europe and America is very different let's just leave it at that.

I have a open mind, and I don't have any internal barriers. I just don't like people saying they don't follow any ideology at all.

Very gracious of you, forevernoob. It's hard to find people with enough grace to offer apologies to strangers online. Many pats on the back, you deserve!

Let me assure you though, I am not apolitical. I am very, very political. I am just an equal opportunity asshole, as posters on the Democratic Underground, Daily Paul and Hannity forum will testify. In fact, I am gigantic troll on the Vanguard Forum (those racist supremacists deserve it though).

The thing is, if I accept labels, I have to defend and/or adhere to the parameters of said labels.

If I label myself as a liberal/socialist, I cannot scream in anger at Obama for capitulating to the demands of Congress in keeping Guantanamo open.
If I label myself as a libertarian, I cannot applaud Obama's iron will in preventing the United States from entering into a third war in Syria, despite the insistence of his entire cabinet (including SecState Clinton, SecDefense Panetta, CIA Director Gen. Petraues and CJCS Gen. Dempsey) and the neoncons in Congress (watch this Senate Armed Services Committee Hearing: )
If I label myself as a conservative, I cannot give credit to Obama for presiding over the lowest growth in Federal gov size since the Eisenhower administration.
If I label myself as a Green, I cannot criticize Obama for signing the FAA Reauthorization Bill.

I will be too busy hedging and hemming and hawing my opinions to toe my self-imposed label. By remaining free of such labels, I can stand on my own principles and beliefs. I am certain, you are also not comfortable with the entire political parameters of libertarianism.

I know of libertarians who get ulcers trying to reconcile the idea of child labor into their belief system, just because it fits with the current paleolibertarian zeitgeist.
I also know of fundamentalist conservatives whose conscience is torn asunder as they attempt to deny gays their right to love (interesting read: the love affair of David and Jonathan in the book of Samuel).
I know of liberals who froth in the mouth when it was revealed that Obama ordered the assasination of American citizen Anwar Al-Awlaki (remember the DoJ whitepaper?).

If we are free from the shackles of labels, we are able to develop our own value system instead of relying on party platforms and flavor-of-the-month politicians. I feel insulted whenever someone tells me what I should think and believe in. Don't you feel the same?

Sometimes, I get the impression people are naming their favorite musical genres when speaking about their political beliefs.
Ooh, I'm a fan of techno and house music and I'm a crypto right wing anarchist.
Wow, you're so ordinary. I'm a fan of bluegrass and early Texas blues, and I'm a Jedi-liberal-constitutionalist.

[rugrats]

Shouldn't we, as individuals and civilizations as a whole, aspire to be the best that we can be?

Yes, exactly, of course we should. Well said my friend.

I greatly admire your tenacity, conviction and sense of altruism.
For the record though, buddy, I don't think you are a socialist.
Unlike most of us in this thread, you're not a political creature.
You're a humanist (or humanitarian - I always get those two mixed up).

"Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy"

"Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgment."

Socialism and libertarianism are not necessarily opposites. That's the problem with arguing about these ideological dogmas that place people into separating boxes. Start thinking what the values we want to promote are, and develop a deeper political philosophy. These labels are not addressing the root causes. From Wikipedia article on Anarchism:

"As a subtle and anti-dogmatic philosophy, anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy. There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive."

Freedom starts with "I am my own master" but ends before "I am slave to no man". Liberty is the possession of agency, the power to fulfil your own potential. It's important in this modern day and age of mass criminalisation, and of stolen liberties, to understand that the only path to preservation of spirit is through preservation of action.

To preserve our human spirit, we must look not to surrogate father figures, or the great grand institutions but instead to each other, directly from one humble person to another. The Darkness becomes our protective cloak for this nascent perspective.

Genjix, very nice (not said in a Borat accent, I swear!). Cool post deserves a cool song.

God, how it makes me proud to have such libertarian free marketeer friends just across the water, ready to help us out and show us the error of our ways whenever called upon

  Brilliant. The US sets its sights on Europe.

      Christ fuckin help us 

Hey, don't sell yourself short, man.
Need I remind you of the inimitable Nigel Farage?
I remember watching in shocked fascination as he brazenly likened van Rompuy to a damp rag - among a great many other insults directed at the latter.
Oh, and thanks for making the cogent reasoning re Homestead.

[Erdogan]

inBitweTrust what's your community? Sound interesting, I want to visit.

I'm not anti ancap ideas, just that I empathise more with market anarchism as a tactic because sometimes the ancap wiki article sounds too fantastical and idealised rather than realistic. especially when it gets into insurance companies and private enforcers which is a big no no for me. I've seen some funky youtube videos where this company A pays that company B blaa blaa - very utopic almost.

You are spot on with identifying and denouncing visions exposed by many ideologies and I empathize with your sentiment to resist certain labels because of your goal to address the issues directly rather than participate in less productive armchair politics. The romanticism espoused by certain trans-humanists , groups like the seasteaders , the zeitgeist movement, the venus project , and others all have an unrealistic and utopian ideals which makes them fascinating but anyone with any real experience living in a anarchistic community realizes there is no end utopia to be realized or even desired.

I live on a Permaculture farm in Costa Rica, in a small community. This isn't a planned anarcho-cap community and the people come from all ages, nationalities, income levels , and politics; albeit higher amounts of anarchists and libertarians exist in our communities than the general population. There are hundreds of these types of communities all over Costa Rica , and Latin America and they naturally just function as anarcho cap communities because we need to get things done and most people here are capitalists. Many Latin American countries, while being somewhat more "socialist" in nature are also inept as well where people naturally live like anarchists outside of the main capital or larger cities. There are some examples of ancho-socialist communes here that I have visited but they don't do as well as ones that embrace capitalism.

Despite the caricatures portrayed by socialists and anarcho-communists on the evils of an-caps and our love of corporations and hatred of the poor, in reality we have many of the same goals and motivations as them, just different methods at accomplishing such goals. We would rather allow a psychopath to identify themselves by not contributing rather than using force to mandate egalitarianism. When a community is kept small, social pressures can have a very powerful effect and we have been successful in running some of the most dangerous, heavily armed druglords out of town without the use of violence and by social pressures and solidarity alone in our community with our non-profit DRO.


P.S>...You certainly are welcome to come and visit and I'll invite you once I finish building my guesthouse for you to crash at.(kinda waiting on bitcoin to rebound before finishing  )


P.S.S... Yes, most planned developments in general are scams and rely on misleading or false promises whether they be Galt's Gulch(WTF was Jeff thinking?) or any traditional development. The key is to buy or homestead property yourself and just work in solidarity with your neighbors rather than manufacture some dream utopia without any effort. 
 

This is interesting information. The concept of hard land property ownership rights is not dealt with and done among freedom loving people. Private ownership generally is. No freedom is possible unless you own yourself, your body, your clothes, the air surrounding you, your food and water that you have either produced yourself or acquired in voluntary trade. If the hunter/gatherer had hunted some game or gathered some berries, they are his, just like the modern version of food hunting where you get something from a shop for money that you got for your own work.

Currently all land is apparently owned, because governments have just confiscated all unused land, and all future land that comes in to existence, in the form of for example radio spectrum, sea bottoms, air space, tunnels and so on. But in many law systems there are remnants of what was the original method of acquiring land, namely, when some land was unused, anyone could occupy that land and call it their own. There was recently a court case here where someone declared ownership of unused land (not clarified yet, and if I know my dominators, they will not accept that, but it is still the law).

Ancient societies had also private land, some historians say otherwise, but my analysis is that the ownership was either personal in a family, where it was handed over through heritage, or owned by a wider voluntary association of people. Those associations were voluntary, because some individual could choose to join, or the association could choose to take on a new member. If someone was not ready to play the game, he would be expelled from trading with any member of the association, which is a legal reaction. It helped that there were lots of unused land those days.

In your ancap society, I guess the land is still owned in the hard, state defined sense at the bottom, which make it different from the ideal master-free society (where everybody is the sovereign of his own self-kingdom). Anyway, it is an interesting approximation of a free society.

[genjix]

You are spot on with identifying and denouncing visions exposed by many ideologies and I empathize with your sentiment to resist certain labels because of your goal to address the issues directly rather than participate in less productive armchair politics. The romanticism espoused by certain trans-humanists , groups like the seasteaders , the zeitgeist movement, the venus project , and others all have an unrealistic and utopian ideals which makes them fascinating but anyone with any real experience living in a anarchistic community realizes there is no end utopia to be realized or even desired.

...

Despite the caricatures portrayed by socialists and anarcho-communists on the evils of an-caps and our love of corporations and hatred of the poor, in reality we have many of the same goals and motivations as them, just different methods at accomplishing such goals. We would rather allow a psychopath to identify themselves by not contributing rather than using force to mandate egalitarianism. When a community is kept small, social pressures can have a very powerful effect and we have been successful in running some of the most dangerous, heavily armed druglords out of town without the use of violence and by social pressures and solidarity alone in our community with our non-profit DRO.

cool I've had big arguments with communists before turning aggressive and loud calling me bourgeois despite my extremely modest lifestyle striving for my ideals. No matter what you say they are hopelessly dogmatic and unwilling to understand why you can't take power to fix things.

Proudhon said of communism, "whether of the utopian or the Marxist variety, that it destroyed freedom by taking away from the individual control over his means of production" and "Communism is exploitation of the strong by the weak." Mikhail Bakunin stated "I hate Communism because it is the negation of liberty and because for me humanity is unthinkable without liberty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issues_in_anarchism#Communism

Their ideology is rooted in an older period and is an obsolete dogma for our time.

Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation? ... [Because] they know that your antiquated styles of protest – your marches, hand held signs, and gatherings – are now powerless to effect real change because they have become such a predictable part of the status quo. They know that your post-Marxist jargon is off-putting because it really is a language of mere academic dispute, not a weapon capable of undermining systems of control…
—"Your Politics Are Boring as Fuck"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-left_anarchy

I sympathise heavily with these viewpoints:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-market_anarchism#Left-wing_market_anarchism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geolibertarianism

In the end, we don't have all the answers, simply ideals to strive towards thinking how we should implement them in the here and the now. Unlike any utopic ideology, what separates us is putting what we say into practice and living our ideals as our activism.

I've lived around the world, and interacted with many activist communities. I'm friends with people across all the spectrum from academics, politicians, businessmen, anarchists of the south, libertarians of the west, ... and sense a common strand of perception on the world separated often by isolating language or political frameworks. What an American believes and emphasises is very much tied to the local culture, context and history, and differs from a Spanish guy. It's important to look past this with understanding about the issues with a recognition that we are one freedom movement.

There are different governance models, different ways of organising, and no one way is objectively better. There are tradeoffs. What we can do is work through markets to provide the things to empower people to self-organise. I fundamentally believe (take it as a dogma or experience ) that free & open markets work best in our favour as we're working against the status quo. It's not simply a matter of what's better but also the inevitability of a changing global landscape that we have to adapt to. I want a world based on merit and empathy (if you're egoist, call it "enlightened self-interest", or leftist call it "mutuality"). I love to support people doing cool things or projects with my own money or have nice people around. My method is about creating the tools or means so we can have 10s of thousands or millions of people working together, supporting each other with a philosophy of "why put your money in the corporations, put your money in your friends". We spend lots of money everyday giving to big corporations, but instead if we could satisfy our needs as free people, we can continue to reinvest in each other. From different perspectives you could call this either socialism or capitalism (depending on your definitions of the word).

Here's an article about the CIC in Catalonia. They are using the legal structure of a cooperative to create their own startup government that provides the basic services that people need to live, but better than that of the governments of the state:
https://cooperativa.cat/en/integral-revolution/
They use the legal structure to create their own internal economy and are ~10,000 different organisations with a food network and different services for people. It's a cool vision.

Also our plan is to build our own cities:
https://wiki.unsystem.net/index.php/UnSYSTEM/Opensource_city

A communist town (interesting to understand):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinaleda,_Spain

[inBitweTrust]

In your ancap society, I guess the land is still owned in the hard, state defined sense at the bottom, which make it different from the ideal master-free society (where everybody is the sovereign of his own self-kingdom). Anyway, it is an interesting approximation of a free society.

Land here is acquired by purchasing or homesteading. Many countries in the America's allow for homesteading and the loss of land that is neglected. Many countries allow for water right claims, and other common law rights such as the right to travel, even through private property if other ways are not assessable. Land rights are transient and most anarcho-capitalists believe in such a principle. We believe property rights as an extension of self ownership which can be gained or lost. The details as how the state determines property rights and homesteading is far from perfect but also not very different than how it would function in an anarchist society. Anarchists believe in governments and laws , just not in state governments with monopolies of force. Costa Rica is fairly close to that ideal being that it has abolished the military over 60 years ago, thus homesteading is determined by local witnesses and evidence provided to a local judge. Within a purer anarchist society this judge would probably be represented by a group of volunteers and upstanding community members all of the community agreed upon that took on a temporary role of arbitration.  

[Erdogan]

In your ancap society, I guess the land is still owned in the hard, state defined sense at the bottom, which make it different from the ideal master-free society (where everybody is the sovereign of his own self-kingdom). Anyway, it is an interesting approximation of a free society.

Land here is acquired by purchasing or homesteading. Most countries allow for homesteading and the loss of land that is neglected. Many countries allow for water right claims, and other common law rights such as the right to travel, even through private property if other ways are not assessable. The United States is really just the outlier with all the changes over the years removing the rights to homesteading which ended in 1976 (and in 1986 for Alaska) . Land rights are transient and most anarcho-capitalists believe in such a principle. We believe property rights as an extension of self ownership which can be gained or lost. The details as how the state determines property rights and homesteading is far from perfect but also not very different than how it would function in an anarchist society. Anarchists believe in governments and laws , just not in state governments with monopolies of force. Costa Rica is fairly close to that ideal being that it has abolished the military over 60 years ago, thus homesteading is determined by local witnesses and evidence provided to a local judge. Within a purer anarchist society this judge would probably be represented by a group of volunteers and upstanding community members all of the community agreed upon that took on a temporary role of arbitration.  

Even more interesting...

[Beliathon]

..while the public who should reap the compensation gets screwed, but the harm is distributed fairly evenly across society.

No, it most certainly is not. The harm is heaped upon poor minority communities, most especially low-income black males who account for 80% of the prison (=rape-camp slave labor for profit) population.

Similarly, they may pollute the atmosphere and increase my chances of getting cancer by a few millionths of a percent, but that is not hurting me much.

A dangerously myopic perspective. When you can't swim in the oceans or even live within 50 miles of any ocean, will it affect you then?

As for how our socialist 'public health' system treats kids

Whoadude, I don't know where you're from but it's sure as shit better not be the United States.

Whatever healthcare system you have, I guarantee you it's better, WAY cheaper, more compassionate, more comprehensive, than the parasite profiteering model for health"care" we have here.

U.S. spends 18% of our GDP on healthcare.
Australia spends only 9% of GDP. That's a country that is mostly unlivable fucking desert, by the way.

Hip replacement in Belgium costs $13,000.
Hip replacement in U.S. = $100,000 +

Colonoscopy Switzerland = $650.
Colonoscopy in US = $1,100

1 month of Lipitor in New Zealand = $7.
1 month of Lipitor in U.S. = $124

In the U.S. healthcare providers charge whatever they think they can get away with.

BTW Americans go to the doctor less than Europeans and stay in hospitals far less time, probably because hospital stays are 7 times more expensive here in the U.S.

[inBitweTrust]

It's important to look past this with understanding about the issues with a recognition that we are one freedom movement.

Some great information there and something to research. I think one of the central problems with anarchists is that many simply are living their ideals and theories within their head and not embodying it in practice as well. Once you commit to live by the principles, such as agorism and voluntarism in my case, the labels and theory don't matter as much as the solidarity and community despite any differences. So to me I am perfectly fine visiting, befriending, and working alongside individuals that wish to neglect the useful function currency provides as long as they don't abolish those rights I have.

 I too have been fascinated about open source ecology movement but have been more involved directly in the creating and learning process than documenting it, but I do plan on starting to document some of the projects in the future as well and become more involved with all of your great projects.

In solidarity, brother.