bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you?

[practicaldreamer]

 I've had big arguments with communists before turning aggressive and loud calling me bourgeois

They can't have come across Chairman Mao then  

Now there's a man that knew a thing or two about communes.



The change may or may not come from within, facilitated by technological advance.

My feeling is that it will come both from within, and from without. ie. peasant revolts against US exploitation in places like Ecuador, Iraq, Nigeria etc. cutting off the cheap natural resources currently helping to artificially bloat the average US citizens standard of living (which they themselves think is all down to the efficacy of the free market   ).

[1714852541]

1714852541

[cuddaloreappu]

 I've had big arguments with communists before turning aggressive and loud calling me bourgeois

They can't have come across Chairman Mao then   

Now there's a man that knew a thing or two about communes.



The change may or may not come from within, facilitated by technological advance.

My feeling is that it will come both from within, and from without. ie. peasant revolts against US exploitation in places like Ecuador, Iraq, Nigeria etc. cutting off the cheap natural resources currently helping to artificially bloat the average US citizens standard of living (which they themselves think is all down to the efficacy of the free market   ).

Just listen to the story of millionaire app developer Allen Wong..who came from one of these Chinese commune to United states and after many hardships succeeded bigtime..

How to Get a Lamborghini: Allen Wong's Story

[practicaldreamer]

Just listen to the story of millionaire app developer Allen Wong..who came from one of these Chinese commune to United states and after many hardships succeeded bigtime..

How to Get a Lamborghini: Allen Wong's Story

Sounds like a great guy. I don't know what to say. Other than, why the hell would you choose a Lamborghini ? Soon as one of those things breaks down you're fucked - and you realise in an instant how enslaved you are to that which you thought you owned.

What you need is something that is long lived,simple and reliable - something that you are able to turn your hand to fixing yourself should things go wrong. Something that is modular in design and that can be kept going on scrapped parts of other such vehicles. Something all mechanical - without all the ecu's and shit.

  Something like this :
                  


That guy Wong should go for President - you lot love a rags to riches story - someone with a story like that could singlehandedly help to legitimate the exploitative domination, for what ? maybe another generation  

[oshnap]

I wouldn't call my self an anarchist or liberal per say but I do tend towards individualism. I have never voted(US Resident) because I do not feel that I am truly represented by the system that is in place. Some of my friends say that it is surrender but I say it is my refusal to be ignorant of how that system really works and my refusal to take part in that system in any way.

I do not pay taxes, receive social welfare in anyway and basically have as little to do with the system as possible. I basically do what I want when I want as long as it doesn't harm another individual or put my freedom in direct jeopardy. I see wealth as being happy and healthy not as having an abundance of material possessions.

"Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy"

"Libertarianism (Latin: liber, "free") is a political philosophy that upholds liberty as its principal objective. Libertarians seek to maximize autonomy and freedom of choice, emphasizing political freedom, voluntary association and the primacy of individual judgment."

Socialism and libertarianism are not necessarily opposites. That's the problem with arguing about these ideological dogmas that place people into separating boxes. Start thinking what the values we want to promote are, and develop a deeper political philosophy. These labels are not addressing the root causes. From Wikipedia article on Anarchism:

"As a subtle and anti-dogmatic philosophy, anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy. There are many types and traditions of anarchism, not all of which are mutually exclusive."

Freedom starts with "I am my own master" but ends before "I am slave to no man". Liberty is the possession of agency, the power to fulfil your own potential. It's important in this modern day and age of mass criminalisation, and of stolen liberties, to understand that the only path to preservation of spirit is through preservation of action.

To preserve our human spirit, we must look not to surrogate father figures, or the great grand institutions but instead to each other, directly from one humble person to another. The Darkness becomes our protective cloak for this nascent perspective.

Very well said.

[tvbcof]

Similarly, they may pollute the atmosphere and increase my chances of getting cancer by a few millionths of a percent, but that is not hurting me much.

A dangerously myopic perspective. When you can't swim in the oceans or even live within 50 miles of any ocean, will it affect you then?

I cannot use youtube unless I stay up past midnight and have not been doing so lately.  I will say that in my nearly half-decade the amount of environmental contamination impacting human health has been drastically reduced.  One just has to open their eyes to see it.  What I am seeing from the environmental movement is sheer panic that there problem is going away so they rely more and more on emotion and pseudo-science bullshit to scare people.  My fear is that this policy will backfire when Joe Sixpack has finally had enough and it actually will result in regressions in environmental protection.

As for how our socialist 'public health' system treats kids

Whoadude, I don't know where you're from but it's sure as shit better not be the United States.

Whatever healthcare system you have, I guarantee you it's better, WAY cheaper, more compassionate, more comprehensive, than the parasite profiteering model for health"care" we have here.

Actually I was thinking about Great Britain when I wrote that.  That is the model that lots of us Americans look to as some shining beacon of hope to help with the epidemic of health problems which somehow nobody can figure out, and our getting scammed out of our life's savings by the health care corp/gov system:

 
Wakefield quoted Richard Horton, editor of the Lancet about a conversation that Horton had had with “a very successful London professor of public health” who said, “Public health is sick. It’s about nothing more than self-interest; it’s about power, wealth, and status. Public health grandees are wealthy, powerful people interested only in their legacy. Public health has become utterly immoral…. No one will stand up to the forces of money and power that drive the agenda of public health today.”

If that “successful London professor” is right, what can we do about it? Is it too late?

Here's a decent analogy about what we Socialist (and former quasi-socialist like me) are doing in supporting various socialist policies today in the hopes that they will eventually turn into something positive:

We are going to pull and engine out of a car, buy new pistons, rings, etc, spend a ton on machine work, and spend a lot of time and care re-installing the thing.  But we have no motor oil and no reasonable way to get it.  We are just going to say 'fuck it' and fire up the engine to break it in anyway and worry about getting the motor oil later.  It's stupid engineering and it will fail.

If we don't have very strong democracy then Socialism class policies are certain to turn into the same nightmare that vexes other totalitarian regimes (until the collapse into a smoking ruin of misery and environmental devastation.)  Those actually driving what most Leftists mistake for Socialist policies at this point have anything but the public good in mind, and to the extent that they do, it is the same way a rancher wants the best for his herd of cattle.  There is a good point to be made that cutting most of their balls off and medicating them to keep the 'healthy', and eventually slaughtering them to keep the herd size optimal results in a better quality of life for the herd.  That argument resonates strongly with the rancher who just happens to also be making a ton of money off his activities.

[Velkro]

Bitcoin didn't change my political views but...
Im always pro free speech
Im always pro freedom
Im always pro free-thinking

So im pro bitcoin

[cuddaloreappu]

Milton Friedman explains how big business is the primary beneficiary of government regulations and how the citizens were better off having a free market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfLhwTs7POU

[sed]

In your ancap society, I guess the land is still owned in the hard, state defined sense at the bottom, which make it different from the ideal master-free society (where everybody is the sovereign of his own self-kingdom). Anyway, it is an interesting approximation of a free society.

Land here is acquired by purchasing or homesteading. Most countries allow for homesteading and the loss of land that is neglected. Many countries allow for water right claims, and other common law rights such as the right to travel, even through private property if other ways are not assessable. The United States is really just the outlier with all the changes over the years removing the rights to homesteading which ended in 1976 (and in 1986 for Alaska) . Land rights are transient and most anarcho-capitalists believe in such a principle. We believe property rights as an extension of self ownership which can be gained or lost. The details as how the state determines property rights and homesteading is far from perfect but also not very different than how it would function in an anarchist society. Anarchists believe in governments and laws , just not in state governments with monopolies of force. Costa Rica is fairly close to that ideal being that it has abolished the military over 60 years ago, thus homesteading is determined by local witnesses and evidence provided to a local judge. Within a purer anarchist society this judge would probably be represented by a group of volunteers and upstanding community members all of the community agreed upon that took on a temporary role of arbitration.  

When you say "most countries" that's where you should drop a reference to back up such a claim.

With respect to homesteading in USA it was mainly a way to force the removal of indigenous peoples (especially in the great plains area where the people lived a nomadic hunting lifestyle---incombatible with land ownership and agriculture). Unless you can back up your "most" claims, I think most people will simply dismiss them.  (Irony intended, to be clear, I will dismiss them but I have no evidence to say what most people will do).

[practicaldreamer]

 I will say that in my nearly half-decade the amount of environmental contamination impacting human health has been drastically reduced.  One just has to open their eyes to see it.  

It may have where you live tvb - thats because all the industry that manufactures and, as a consequence, produces pollutants has been shipped off to India/Indonesia etc.
  They don't have EPA over there. The problem still exists - its just been swept under the rug and out of sight.

When I was a kid we used to swim in a river that had purple water - a carpet factory a couple of miles upstream used to pump its shit into it. My uncle worked there as it happens. The factory has since closed down and fish have since returned to the river. You even see the odd kingfisher (this in an urban area btw which makes the sighting of kingfishers all the more impressive). The downside is that there is, as we speak, Indian kids swimming in purple rivers with no fish - and widespread unemployment in my old hometown.

Could I just ask why, for you, regulatory authorities such as EPA (SEPA over here), are synonymous with "socialism" ?


BTW bitcoin hasn't changed my views towards libertarianism. Why ? Amongst many other reasons, the National Health Service.

[tvbcof]

...
Could I just ask why, for you, regulatory authorities such as EPA (SEPA over here), are synonymous with "socialism" ?

I see our EPA/DEQ as being highly empowered both by money which is behind the 'sustainability' movement and public sentiment which has been very successfully cultivated by said.  There is no doubt in my mind after reading their various documents (including Agenda 21 which was a terrible bore) that it is very much a 'socialist' endeavor.

I'll not argue that various pollution problems have been off-shored and moved around.  I've no doubt that it happens, that it sucks, and that the problems should be identified and called out.  I saw no purple rivers in India when I was there, but I don't doubt that they exist.  In central India I saw nothing that I really thought threatened the planet.  Ya, we humans change things and often enough we fuck them up significantly, but to me it's a balancing act rather than a sort of mindless absolutism which I feel infects the largely innumerate 'green' minions in my country at this time.

I know for sure that our waters and air in the state I live (Oregon) are vastly more clean then they were in the 70's.  Other practices that were common 100 years ago and had significant, if localized, environmental impacts are history.  It can be honestly said that I have the environmental movement to thank for this.  So, 'Thanks!'  But as the problems disappear (here) the burdensome of bureaucracy and regulations continues to  grow by leaps and bounds.  Again, what I've been hit with under the guise of 'environmental protection' is flat out straight up racketeering.

In my analysis this racketeering is directly attributable to the 'sustainability' movement.  So much so that the local 'non-profit' watershed association which makes most of their money doing 'stream restoration' has a covert program to work with ICLEI-USA who's goal is to ram humans into dense habitats where 80% of the population lives in stack-n-pack housing in population centers.  The guy who runs lives on his farm out of town with his goats and shit.  The 'elites' are, of course, planning to be the other 20% so it seems.  I found documentation of this watershed organization's activities because our NOAA was not careful with their management of meeting minute documents...the watershed association itself stopped publishing them back in 2011.

BTW bitcoin hasn't changed my views towards libertarianism. Why ? Amongst many other reasons, the National Health Service.

I value your take on things and find your statement above to lack enough info to understand what you are saying so if you have the energy to further clarify I would appreciate it.

BTW, my mom just got back from a visit to Scotland.  She had some friends there (fellow wood carvers) and was able to visit with normal people and see the real country and not do the total tourist thing.  She was very impressed with the country and the people.  This was shortly before the Independence vote and there were passions and rational points on both sides of the issue.

 

[AdrianChilders]

I was definitely already a libertarian, but bitcoin and blockchain technology has made me rethink humanity in general and how the planet is created and how organisms work together. It's also worked as an incentive to learn how to program and be able to read the source code on github.

[inBitweTrust]

When you say "most countries" that's where you should drop a reference to back up such a claim.

With respect to homesteading in USA it was mainly a way to force the removal of indigenous peoples (especially in the great plains area where the people lived a nomadic hunting lifestyle---incombatible with land ownership and agriculture). Unless you can back up your "most" claims, I think most people will simply dismiss them.  (Irony intended, to be clear, I will dismiss them but I have no evidence to say what most people will do).

You are correct, upon further research homestead laws were passed in the USA(than repealed), Canada, Australia and many countries in central and south America. As I have mainly traveled in the Americas I assumed that homesteading was common everywhere but appears to be more of a common law principle that became popular in the new world as a means to colonize large amounts of territory.

Although it doesn't refute the principle point of my message and post, I updated the post to ensure accuracy.

[Beliathon]

Milton Friedman explains how big business is the primary beneficiary of government regulations and how the citizens were better off having a free market.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfLhwTs7POU

Yeah, the Gilded Age was a regular paradise for the average citizen  

Jesus Christ, could you possibly be any historically amnesic? It's stunning how clueless people are about very basic, relatively recent american history.

[Satan666]

Jesus Christ, could you possibly be any historically amnesic? It's stunning how clueless people are about very basic, relatively recent american history.

Let's leave Jesus out of it.  That guy was pure evil.  I don't remember what his exact words were to Judas about poor people, but he basically said something to the effect of "Fuck 'em".  I can't believe people actually revere someone like that.

You and I would never be so cold to these precious people.  I just love how great minds think alike. 

[Beliathon]

Jesus Christ, could you possibly be any historically amnesic? It's stunning how clueless people are about very basic, relatively recent american history.

Let's leave Jesus out of it.  That guy was pure evil.  I don't remember what his exact words were to Judas about poor people, but he basically said something to the effect of "Fuck 'em".  I can't believe people actually revere someone like that.

You and I would never be so cold to these precious people.  I just love how great minds think alike. 

Hail Satan! I've always been a sucker for a rebel.

[marcus_of_augustus]

bitcoin changing your guys religion too now?  

[Satan666]

bitcoin changing your guys religion too now?  

Bitcoin is despicable, but that's okay...I've got some tricks up my sleeve.

[Satan666]

Jesus Christ, could you possibly be any historically amnesic? It's stunning how clueless people are about very basic, relatively recent american history.

Let's leave Jesus out of it.  That guy was pure evil.  I don't remember what his exact words were to Judas about poor people, but he basically said something to the effect of "Fuck 'em".  I can't believe people actually revere someone like that.

You and I would never be so cold to these precious people.  I just love how great minds think alike.  

Hail Satan! I've always been a sucker for a rebel.

You're going to fit right in here.  Judas and I will have a cold beer waiting for you.  

[Beliathon]

You're going to fit right in here.  Judas and I will have a cold beer waiting for you.  

As long as that's a real German or Belgian beer, and not that american pisswater, we're good.

[jonald_fyookball]

bitcoin changing your guys religion too now?  

Bitcoin IS my religion now