Petition to sticky Dogies manufacturer trustworthiness guide!!

[opieum2]

Mods should know it! I am sure they have been contacted, I know I have. But considering that caveat emptor disclaimer also involves some research on the part of the prospect, why not make it easier for them by adding Dogies manufacturer trustworthiness guide? If you feel that thread should be stickied comment in this thread, hopefully mods listen and sticky it.

Reference in question https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691


Vote here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=731973.0

[1715298770]

1715298770

[1715298770]

1715298770

[1715298770]

1715298770

[Xian01]

[dogie]

*trustworthiness

[jimmothy]

Mods should know it! I am sure they have been contacted, I know I have. But considering that caveat emptor disclaimer also involves some research on the part of the prospect, why not make it easier for them by adding Dogies manufacturer trustworthiness guide? If you feel that thread should be stickied comment in this thread, hopefully mods listen and sticky it.

Reference in question https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691

I like his guide but I don't think it should be stickied.

We need more people making trustworthiness guides so it's less impartial.

I don't want an "official" ratings list especially if dogies opinion can be wrong and/or he could be paid off.

[dogie]

if dogies opinion can be wrong and/or he could be paid off.

If its 'wrong', disagree with me. And I'm probably the last person you can pay off. I'm not saying there shouldn't be others doing the same, but the smaller the guide owner, the easier it is to pay them off.

[jimmothy]

if dogies opinion can be wrong and/or he could be paid off.

If its 'wrong', disagree with me. And I'm probably the last person you can pay off. I'm not saying there shouldn't be others doing the same, but the smaller the guide owner, the easier it is to pay them off.

IMO we shouldn't be stickying anything that is constantly changing, debatable, and full of opinions.

[Sitarow]

if dogies opinion can be wrong and/or he could be paid off.

If its 'wrong', disagree with me. And I'm probably the last person you can pay off. I'm not saying there shouldn't be others doing the same, but the smaller the guide owner, the easier it is to pay them off.

IMO we shouldn't be stickying anything that is constantly changing, debatable, and full of opinions.

Be it as it may. There are other eyes on the issue . If you want another opinion there are other active community participants you can ask

[opieum2]

*trustworthiness

Wow not sure how I missed that. DYSLEXICS UNTIE!!! Fixed it.

[opieum2]

From personal experience his guides have not steered me wrong personally speaking and I imagine others as well. His assessments are consistent and thorough. His views seem to be fitting generally with the companies he puts reviews up for. Those views are also reviewed and updated depending on any new information. I think that warrants at least a sticky even if you don't agree. Right now dogie is the only one doing these reviews really. The individual manufacturer threads are either self moderated or massive trollfests. At least an at a glance view of the review info from a respected member of the community would be nice to have on here with visibility for newbies to check out quick and then do more research from that point.

[Unacceptable]

It should be stickied!!!  

He's not as critical as I would be,after being burned by BFL,Avalon & almost Blackarrow & watching the meltdown of Hashfast,AMT & others  

But good reviews nonetheless.He does get some equipment free,but to me it doesn't seem to sway him....much  

We need to help the general public to make good decisions on miner purchases.Oh & the rent-a-hash scams too  

Hate to say it,but ordinary folks won't be mining for too much longer at home.The mining corps are seeing to that....it's a lot of fun while it lasts though  

[Niggle]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

[tripppn]

+1

[Flying Hellfish]

if dogies opinion can be wrong and/or he could be paid off.

If its 'wrong', disagree with me. And I'm probably the last person you can pay off. I'm not saying there shouldn't be others doing the same, but the smaller the guide owner, the easier it is to pay them off.

IMO we shouldn't be stickying anything that is constantly changing, debatable, and full of opinions.

I tend to agree, simply put it's too subjective.  I think newbs should be encouraged to use his guide because IMO it's the best we got ATM.  The potential for abuse, conflict of interest and it's opinion based scoring systems leads me to believe it should be left to stand on it's own merit as a thread and not stickied.

People shouldn't be looking for a simple opinion based guide to tell them what to buy, we should be encouraging them (like the caveat emptor thread does) to do their own research and formulate their own opinion, but I guess in this day and age of instant gratification everyone wants someone else to tell them what there opinion is so they can be done with it, so ya fuck it just sticky it already.

[aerobatic]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

Disagree.   its Dogie's opinions alone- which in most cases also matches the reality - but, good though they often are, the guide contains too many of his personal opinions without letting 'facts' get in the way - the guide lacks objectivity.

Dogie has ignored constructive criticism and writes whatever he wants, which is of course his absolute right.  but stickying it would elevate it to a formal position of the forum, and would imply its the official position of the community, and it isnt - Its one man's view and for better or for worse there are some companies he likes and some he doesnt like, and it wouldnt matter what the facts are, he's going to praise the ones he likes and diss the ones he doesnt, irrespective of the number of people telling him where he got it wrong.

Disagreeing with him makes no difference.  proving the facts makes no difference.  writing to him personally makes no difference.  he is a law unto himself.  Criticism both constructive or otherwise has been ignored.  Several professional miners have pointed out areas where he has not been objective and he's not made any of the changes they recommended.  Suspect any opinion that doesnt agree with his own is ignored.  Even when his own objective measurements are ignored when it suits to say whatever he wants... which yet again, is his right of free speech to say and do what the hell he wants but that's not a democratic and unbiassed guide.  Dogie's guide is statistically irrelevant - its based on a sample size of One.   Its definitely Dogie's guide, and its good for casual use but not a good 'official guide' as its too subjective - Its not 'decentralised'.

[Biffa]

Too many stickies just spoil the broth

Just put it in the first post of the Caveat Emptor stickie, along with any other relevant posts.

[dogie]

if dogies opinion can be wrong and/or he could be paid off.

If its 'wrong', disagree with me. And I'm probably the last person you can pay off. I'm not saying there shouldn't be others doing the same, but the smaller the guide owner, the easier it is to pay them off.

IMO we shouldn't be stickying anything that is constantly changing, debatable, and full of opinions.

I tend to agree, simply put it's too subjective.  I think newbs should be encouraged to use his guide because IMO it's the best we got ATM.  The potential for abuse, conflict of interest and it's opinion based scoring systems leads me to believe it should be left to stand on it's own merit as a thread and not stickied.

People shouldn't be looking for a simple opinion based guide to tell them what to buy, we should be encouraging them (like the caveat emptor thread does) to do their own research and formulate their own opinion, but I guess in this day and age of instant gratification everyone wants someone else to tell them what there opinion is so they can be done with it, so ya fuck it just sticky it already.

I changed to a numerical based system so its as non opinionated as possible, simply I have no sway in skewing the scores, all I can do is change the system which applies to all companies. If people have a better system, they're free to suggest one but I'm still yet to receive any.

As you say, it would be great if people did their own in depth research and came to their own conclusions but they simply don't, hence BFL had 25M in sales last year.

[dogie]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

Disagreeing with him makes no difference.  proving the facts makes no difference.  writing to him personally makes no difference.  he is a law unto himself.  Criticism both constructive or otherwise has been ignored.  Several professional miners have pointed out areas where he has not been objective and he's not made any of the changes they recommended.  Suspect any opinion that doesnt agree with his own is ignored.  Even when his own objective measurements are ignored when it suits to say whatever he wants...

You want to substantiate any of those rather aggressive claims?

[aerobatic]

But good reviews nonetheless.He does get some equipment free,but to me it doesn't seem to sway him....much  

i hope thats not true!  if he gets any equipment for free or at a special price in any way, then there's no chance of unbiassed reviews and it would put him in a compromised position.  im sure its not true, and if it was, he would need to disclose which equipment he got for free (or discounted) and state it very clearly alongside the review.

[aerobatic]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

Disagreeing with him makes no difference.  proving the facts makes no difference.  writing to him personally makes no difference.  he is a law unto himself.  Criticism both constructive or otherwise has been ignored.  Several professional miners have pointed out areas where he has not been objective and he's not made any of the changes they recommended.  Suspect any opinion that doesnt agree with his own is ignored.  Even when his own objective measurements are ignored when it suits to say whatever he wants...

You want to substantiate any of those rather aggressive claims?

here's a few recent examples... for instance..  when you posted your new trustworthiness claims in the cointerra thread.  you had several professional miners disagree with your guide and tell you your ratings were too opinionated and not 'fact checked').  the comments were pretty much in universal agreement, yet you changed nothing.  you didnt update your guide at all based on the input of those that would know the reality - the actual users and customers.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg8050461#msg8050461

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg8050678#msg8050678

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg8066522#msg8066522

and my own post...  that i wrote to you privately in pm and you said pretty much you'd ignore it unless i posted it publicly, even though i was uncomfortable to do so, and.. after i posted it publicly, you still ignored it and stuck to your opinions rather than the facts.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.msg8048857#msg8048857

i dont deny you have the right to your opinions, but presenting them as universal fact and ignoring anyone else's input doesnt sit well with me.

[psahx]

+1 For sticky!!!

You can argue as much as you can, when you got something to compare with. For now, dogie's guide is the only one and it is trustworthy. And you can point out inaccuracies in the specific threads, if you have complains. This is gold for noobs!

So, STICKY!!! STICKY!!!

[dogie]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

Disagreeing with him makes no difference.  proving the facts makes no difference.  writing to him personally makes no difference.  he is a law unto himself.  Criticism both constructive or otherwise has been ignored.  Several professional miners have pointed out areas where he has not been objective and he's not made any of the changes they recommended.  Suspect any opinion that doesnt agree with his own is ignored.  Even when his own objective measurements are ignored when it suits to say whatever he wants...

You want to substantiate any of those rather aggressive claims?

here's a few recent examples... for instance..  when you posted your new trustworthiness claims in the cointerra thread.  you had several professional miners disagree with your guide and tell you your ratings were too opinionated and not 'fact checked').  the comments were pretty much in universal agreement, yet you changed nothing.  you didnt update your guide at all based on the input of those that would know the reality - the actual users and customers.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg8050461#msg8050461

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg8050678#msg8050678

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269093.msg8066522#msg8066522

and my own post...  that i wrote to you privately in pm and you said pretty much you'd ignore it unless i posted it publicly, even though i was uncomfortable to do so, and.. after i posted it publicly, you still ignored it and stuck to your opinions rather than the facts.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691.msg8048857#msg8048857

i dont deny you have the right to your opinions, but presenting them as universal fact and ignoring anyone else's input doesnt sit well with me.

I don't monitor companies threads, if people have comments on the trustworthiness thread they should be posted in the trustworthiness thread.... you don't honestly expect me to monitor 20+ threads for comments about my thread do you?

Everything you posted in your essay was dealt with on the two pages before and after your post, but you didn't bother reading any of that and assumed you were ignored. That's not my fault, and that's not a reason to try and discredit me.

[aerobatic]

I don't monitor companies threads, if people have comments on the trustworthiness thread they should be posted in the trustworthiness thread.... you don't honestly expect me to monitor 20+ threads for comments about my thread do you?

Everything you posted in your essay was dealt with on the two pages before and after your post, but you didn't bother reading any of that and assumed you were ignored. That's not my fault, and that's not a reason to try and discredit me.

thats not strictly true.  they were replying to YOUR posts.  and yes, if you post something somewhere, and someone responds to you, i do hope you'd read their replies and take note.   and since you obviously missed them, and ive posted them for you now, i presume youre still going to ignore them.

cant you see youre doing it again?   youre ignoring perfectly valid comments and/or criticisms of your guide saying you got your facts wrong, and that you couldve updated the guide to make it more accurate, but instead, you just say you didnt see the posts, or, that they were already disagreed with.  you cant bring yourself to actually consider that you mightve incorporated some opinions in your guide that werent appropriate and need to be replaced with more accurate information.

thats why i say its Your guide, and Your opinions, and shouldnt be stickied because you ignore other people's information, especially when it conflicts with your opinion.

[dogie]

I don't monitor companies threads, if people have comments on the trustworthiness thread they should be posted in the trustworthiness thread.... you don't honestly expect me to monitor 20+ threads for comments about my thread do you?

Everything you posted in your essay was dealt with on the two pages before and after your post, but you didn't bother reading any of that and assumed you were ignored. That's not my fault, and that's not a reason to try and discredit me.

thats not strictly true.  they were replying to YOUR posts.  and yes, if you post something somewhere, and someone responds to you, i do hope you'd read their replies and take note.   and since you obviously missed them, and ive posted them for you now, i presume youre still going to ignore them.

cant you see youre doing it again?   youre ignoring perfectly valid comments and/or criticisms of your guide saying you got your facts wrong, and that you couldve updated the guide to make it more accurate, but instead, you just say you didnt see the posts, or, that they were already disagreed with.  you cant bring yourself to actually consider that you mightve incorporated some opinions in your guide that werent appropriate and need to be replaced with more accurate information.

thats why i say its Your guide, and Your opinions, and shouldnt be stickied because you ignore other people's information, especially when it conflicts with your opinion.

Can't you see you don't get it? I can't create a botnet to scour the globe to find posts directed at me, and then reply to them in 20 different places. That post is a notification to say that that company has been updated in MY thread. Its not an invitation for people to come to my thread, then leave me thread, then start a conversation with me outside of my thread - that doesn't make sense.

And no, I'm not now going to start a conversation with posts which are literally 2 weeks old. And yes, I have read the content of the posts. Did you read them before you copy pasted then, because I don't think you did. The first post didn't understand that companies are not ranked overall but by criteria, and so were complaining that x company appeared the same level as y company - that's not under my control and its organic. The second post had nothing useful to say other than "whats wrong with KNC" (which is pretty obvious if you actually went to the KNC thread...", or he bothered to look at the individual criteria mentioned. The third post is complaining that the system is binary (or trinary), yet its exactly what is required to prevent people crying that I'm abusing or skewing the system. You can't have it both ways.

So I'll ask you again - did you actually read those posts before you copy pasted?

[Lucky Cris]

Great job on the info Dogie.

Just a question... do/did you receive any type of incentive from any of these companies?

[opieum2]

Sorry for all the trouble on this. It was meant to be a petition not an attack against dogie. I would ask to keep this on topic please.

[Gleb Gamow]

Mods should know it! I am sure they have been contacted, I know I have. But considering that caveat emptor disclaimer also involves some research on the part of the prospect, why not make it easier for them by adding Dogies manufacturer trustworthiness guide? If you feel that thread should be stickied comment in this thread, hopefully mods listen and sticky it.

Reference in question https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=456691

I'll +1 this.

[nexus99]

Its subjective. No sticky needed.

[Lucky Cris]

Sorry for all the trouble on this. It was meant to be a petition not an attack against dogie. I would ask to keep this on topic please.

Perhaps you should've started with a poll, then petitioned for the sticky.

Surely you're not implying my question is somehow an attack? It's not; but it is a valid question and it deserves an answer. If there's an incentive involved, how much confident can the community have in the score? I'm not saying Dogie would intentionally misrepresent a product, but it's no different than neglecting to mention a few negative experiences of other members.

How is it you're petitioning to post this as a sticky, yet not allowing anyone to have an opinion? I understand it's a petition so already biased... So naturally my question to you is... if no one's allowed to post their opinion in this thread, should they start another against the sticky?

Consider the poll. At least it would give the community an opportunity to speak. Then if the yes votes outweigh the no count, that would only help the cause. But right now, it seems there are some members who feel it's not warranted for one reason or another. This is a community after all.

Edit - case in point:

cant you see youre doing it again?   youre ignoring perfectly valid comments and/or criticisms of your guide saying you got your facts wrong, and that you couldve updated the guide to make it more accurate, but instead, you just say you didnt see the posts, or, that they were already disagreed with.  you cant bring yourself to actually consider that you mightve incorporated some opinions in your guide that werent appropriate and need to be replaced with more accurate information.

thats why i say its Your guide, and Your opinions, and shouldnt be stickied because you ignore other people's information, especially when it conflicts with your opinion.

If there's any truth to this - then I would agree that it shouldn't be a sticky. Not taking into consideration the community's experiences (rather good or bad), is biased.

Stickies are intended to be authoritative messages, opinionated posts do not belong at the top of the forum threads.

[dogie]

Great job on the info Dogie.

Just a question... do/did you receive any type of incentive from any of these companies?

Other than the units, no. Its about 20-30 hours to do even the first pass of guides at the moment and unit prices are falling, so I'm not sure what will happen in the future. I'm still free to say whatever I want about the units and the companies, as I have done in the past.

[GenTarkin]

+1 for sticky!

[Lucky Cris]

Great job on the info Dogie.

Just a question... do/did you receive any type of incentive from any of these companies?

Other than the units, no. Its about 20-30 hours to do even the first pass of guides at the moment and unit prices are falling, so I'm not sure what will happen in the future. I'm still free to say whatever I want about the units and the companies, as I have done in the past.

Ah. Of course you are But that does make a difference. In that case, why not base your rating on company and product facts (e.g., no preorders, operates mining farm) vice customer service (eg, generic unethical behaviour, some orders being ignored). When you take to the level of rating their service, the waters can get muddy real quick... especially when there are customers who completely disagree with your opinion.

[ncsupanda]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

[aerobatic]

Great job on the info Dogie.

Just a question... do/did you receive any type of incentive from any of these companies?

Other than the units, no. Its about 20-30 hours to do even the first pass of guides at the moment and unit prices are falling, so I'm not sure what will happen in the future. I'm still free to say whatever I want about the units and the companies, as I have done in the past.

Dogie, i must admit i hadn't even considered that you didn't actually pay for the miners that you're rating/reviewing?  

Do you not see this is a HUGE conflict for your ratings?   i realize you're free to rate and review them how you want... but you have to concede that this represents a massive conflict of interest.

the companies that didn't give you a free or discounted unit are at a disadvantage and might fear they won't get rated as highly as those companies that did give you a free or discounted unit?   it also rewards the companies that have smaller/cheaper miners because they can afford to dish those out more freely than those that make big expensive 'industrial scale' miners that cost thousands of dollars each, that they can't afford to give away so freely.

Anyway, worst case it makes your ratings completely biassed and open to influencing you with their generosity and best case it pressures them to give you a free unit, if they don't want to risk a poor rating!

along with each rating, you have a duty to disclose accurately what the company gave you in terms of incentive.  a free unit?  more than one free unit?   free hosting?   or a discounted or special deal off a purchase?   any other incentive or item of value?   you have a duty to disclose this stuff if you're to convince us you're unbiassed.

its shocking that this wasn't disclosed and made abundantly clear in your ratings, which manufacturers gave you an incentive and which didn't!?

[Lucky Cris]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

Yes, that's a concern. But I think this as well as other concerns a few members are expressing can be mitigated if their experience can be factored into the rating - it makes the playing field even. If that were so I'd def support this as a sticky because it would be the opinion of the community as a whole - not selective to one or a few reviews.

Dogie - again, I think you did an awesome job and I'm sure there isn't any malice intent here. But in my opinion, you should consider incorporating the community's voice. Not saying you need to monitor threads, but give members an opportunity to be heard somehow.

That's two suggestions I've given that I'm sure no one would have an issue with this becoming a sticky if implemented.

[jimmothy]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

There's also the opposite where a companies reputation is hugely affected by sending a faulty testing unit or none at all.

For example btcgarden has zero complaints as far as I can tell yet somehow dogie managed to get the only faulty unit and poor communication.

Point is something so debatable shouldn't be stickied, especially when biases are to be expected.

[dogie]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

Everything stops that. Setup guides are entirely separate from the trustworthiness guide, hence none of the recent new releases are on there. Companies have to ship reasonable quantities to customers, and ratings are based off performance with customers. You can't buy a rating, it doesn't work like that.

[Sitarow]

But good reviews nonetheless.He does get some equipment free,but to me it doesn't seem to sway him....much  

i hope thats not true!  if he gets any equipment for free or at a special price in any way, then there's no chance of unbiassed reviews and it would put him in a compromised position.  im sure its not true, and if it was, he would need to disclose which equipment he got for free (or discounted) and state it very clearly alongside the review.

You do realize that you are free to ask any one of the active community participants for verification.

For instance I like many collect at least 1 from each manufacturer and also speak up after crunching the number's on what would be the best option for hardware.

I for one still keep an updated speculative network difficulty vs returns spreadsheet that all can see and use for personal verification.

The service provided by the review is more of a fact finding role and to lessen the perliferation of frivolous claims from hardware venders and scams.

[Sitarow]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

Exactly. All we can do is help with awareness to mitigate risk.

[dogie]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

There's also the opposite where a companies reputation is hugely affected by sending a faulty testing unit or none at all.

For example btcgarden has zero complaints as far as I can tell yet somehow dogie managed to get the only faulty unit and poor communication.

Point is something so debatable shouldn't be stickied, especially when biases are to be expected.

If it was just my unit - fine - it is just random chance. But the ONLY two reviewers in the Western hemisphere BOTH received dead units, and then received absolutely no interaction from the company to attempt to fix it.... Its statistically impossible given their quoted 0.3% failure rate - which they put down to customer errors anyway. Its less about the failed miners and more about the 'what else are they trying to hide'?

Given that the vast majority of their miners are shipped to the Asian markets where we don't have exposure to, we have to air on the side of caution. And if anyone thinks I'm purposely being biased over $100 of miner rather than trying to protect the community [aka doing my job...], then I'm not sure what planet you live on :/

[dogie]

The service provided by the review is more of a fact finding role and to lessen the perliferation of frivolous claims from hardware venders and scams.

This is the important line.

Setup guide:

• Immediate term
• Does ONE unit match up as its being sold as
• What happens when you push it to the edge of manufacturer's specs?
• What does it look like?
• Will it burn my house down?
• What do I need to get it running?
• Box to hashing, ASAP.
• Later transitions to "FFS WHY ISNT IT MINING OMG".

Trustworthiness thread:

• Long term
• Do ALL units match up as they're being sold, how they're being sold?

The only thing which overlaps is the company names.

[dogie]

its shocking that this wasn't disclosed and made abundantly clear in your ratings, which manufacturers gave you an incentive and which didn't!?

Holy shit! I hadn't considered that I am biased against every company that is in the list at once! You are also aware that on a 1TH unit, I just about pay for my time, and lose money on anything smaller? I don't see any camera phones over here...

[jimmothy]

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

There's also the opposite where a companies reputation is hugely affected by sending a faulty testing unit or none at all.

For example btcgarden has zero complaints as far as I can tell yet somehow dogie managed to get the only faulty unit and poor communication.

Point is something so debatable shouldn't be stickied, especially when biases are to be expected.

If it was just my unit - fine - it is just random chance. But the ONLY two reviewers in the Western hemisphere BOTH received dead units, and then received absolutely no interaction from the company to attempt to fix it.... Its statistically impossible given their quoted 0.3% failure rate - which they put down to customer errors anyway. Its less about the failed miners and more about the 'what else are they trying to hide'?

Given that the vast majority of their miners are shipped to the Asian markets where we don't have exposure to, we have to air on the side of caution. And if anyone thinks I'm purposely being biased over $100 of miner rather than trying to protect the community [aka doing my job...], then I'm not sure what planet you live on :/

I think most people agree your ratings are 99% on point and unbiased but what we don't agree on is that there should be an official guide.

I do suppose it wouldn't be so bad if the mods would agree to unsticky it if something (majorly) questionable comes up.

[opieum2]

The service provided by the review is more of a fact finding role and to lessen the perliferation of frivolous claims from hardware venders and scams.

This is the important line.

Setup guide:

• Immediate term
• Does ONE unit match up as its being sold as
• What happens when you push it to the edge of manufacturer's specs?
• What does it look like?
• Will it burn my house down?
• What do I need to get it running?
• Box to hashing, ASAP.
• Later transitions to "FFS WHY ISNT IT MINING OMG".

Trustworthiness thread:

• Long term
• Do ALL units match up as they're being sold, how they're being sold?

The only thing which overlaps is the company names.

Fact is Dogies guide is about as objective as its going to get. He does manage to pull it off. It rates based on their current status not on their hype or his equipment reviews. I personally wish I had that guide early on in my purchase decisions. I am sure there are others who feel the same way. The guide is useful. I mean can someone really question the validity of the various ratings? Sure to some degree. BUT for the most part they are on point. Hence why this post should get some treatment as a sticky. Its a good guide to newbies especially.

[ManeBjorn]

I had a faulty unit as well.  I cannot say if it was shipping damage or not but I did have one DOA.
That being said CrazyGuy and BTC Garden were great and got it replaced ASAP.

The only thing I can say here is that nothing stops a company from sending Dogie a unit that works really well and then still not shipping to their customers after they build hype if Dogie likes it.

There's also the opposite where a companies reputation is hugely affected by sending a faulty testing unit or none at all.

For example btcgarden has zero complaints as far as I can tell yet somehow dogie managed to get the only faulty unit and poor communication.

Point is something so debatable shouldn't be stickied, especially when biases are to be expected.

[Niggle]

I do suppose it wouldn't be so bad if the mods would agree to unsticky it if something (majorly) questionable comes up.
[/quote]

This +1

There are so many scammers and whingers on this forum, many whingers who seem to have joined this thread, that dogies guide (even if its slightly biased but I don't think so) is a breath of fresh air. I say sticky it now and if its ever proved to be unreliable in the future, simply unsticky it.

[bbeesley]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

Disagreeing with him makes no difference.  proving the facts makes no difference.  writing to him personally makes no difference.  he is a law unto himself.  Criticism both constructive or otherwise has been ignored.  Several professional miners have pointed out areas where he has not been objective and he's not made any of the changes they recommended.  Suspect any opinion that doesnt agree with his own is ignored.  Even when his own objective measurements are ignored when it suits to say whatever he wants...

You want to substantiate any of those rather aggressive claims?

I've also experienced this with you..I have pointed out errors in your guides and we had quite the discussion about the difference between routers and gateways and you came across in both instances as pompous and knowledgeable beyond your own experience

I appreciate your effort in writing the guides, but they are far too often full of erroneous information and errors and are often thrown together too quickly

They should be taken with a grain of salt and I too don't think that they deserve to be "sticky"

[dogie]

Hear, hear! Sticky that nugget of gold ASAP!

Disagreeing with him makes no difference.  proving the facts makes no difference.  writing to him personally makes no difference.  he is a law unto himself.  Criticism both constructive or otherwise has been ignored.  Several professional miners have pointed out areas where he has not been objective and he's not made any of the changes they recommended.  Suspect any opinion that doesnt agree with his own is ignored.  Even when his own objective measurements are ignored when it suits to say whatever he wants...

You want to substantiate any of those rather aggressive claims?

I've also experienced this with you..I have pointed out errors in your guides and we had quite the discussion about the difference between routers and gateways and you came across in both instances as pompous and knowledgeable beyond your own experience

I appreciate your effort in writing the guides, but they are far too often full of erroneous information and errors and are often thrown together too quickly

They should be taken with a grain of salt and I too don't think that they deserve to be "sticky"

And I've experienced this with you. You had an issue with me referring to a router as the primary DNS server which for 99.9% of people is the same thing, because you had an extremely expensive commercial grade unit at home. You wanted me to change the guide to reflect that, which would have confused everyone....

[bbeesley]

And I've experienced this with you. You had an issue with me referring to a router as the primary DNS server which for 99.9% of people is the same thing, because you had an extremely expensive commercial grade unit at home. You wanted me to change the guide to reflect that, which would have confused everyone....

and it's this obsessive need of yours to get the last word in and be right which simply drives home my point.

you can't take suggestions for improvement and certainly not criticism and therefore are not objective enough to hold the position for which you seek.


as an aside, your previous comment about "routers including DNS" was simply wrong on multiple technical levels and there are a plethora of consumer and professional devices which do not adhere to the non-standard implementation your home gateway permits - but hey, what do I know...I've only spent the last 30 years building and operating networks for some of the largest ISPs in North America  ;-)

[dogie]

and it's this obsessive need of yours to get the last word in...   as an aside your previous comment ... was simply wrong

Pot meet kettle?

Anyway, you're not the one who will get 30 PMs for ANYTHING which isn't as simple and as straight forward as it can be. Simplicity >> everything else.

[opieum2]

EDIT: At request I unlocked this thread to keep the opinions flowing. But I kept the poll locked so people can vote there. Someone made the valid point that any opinions should be aired. Fair enough. However if dogie sees an objection (as I dont see it as fair to him) I will lock this thread as he really should not have defend work he does for free and on his time. That was my reasoning for locking this.

[dogie]

Don't lock it on my behalf, there will always be a minority that feel hard done by because their personal x y z was not moddy coddled and so will take every oppertunity to try and disrupt everything else on a greater scale even though they know its a personal vendetta.

tldr...

 

[psahx]

EDIT: At request I unlocked this thread to keep the opinions flowing. But I kept the poll locked so people can vote there. Someone made the valid point that any opinions should be aired. Fair enough. However if dogie sees an objection (as I dont see it as fair to him) I will lock this thread as he really should not have defend work he does for free and on his time. That was my reasoning for locking this.

I suggest you update the OP, with the poll link.

[taipo]

+1 pin/sticky it

[Bicknellski]

If it were a trustworthiness guide worked on by a committee of consumers and interested parties then maybe it be worth a sticky. As it is now it is just a personal evaluation of the mining scene. It has value but again it is still one persons opinion and that is where it may lack integrity as there needs to be checks and balances in any review system. If you had just 2 or 3 more people contributing and evaluating anonymously it would certainly be worthy of a sticky.

Having said that though. This is the only really in depth guide available currently that attempts to really quantify trustworthiness of fabricators and it is very useful if you simply buy from top people on the list that have ZERO outstanding complaints in these forums. It could be better if there was a team or use of data that was not personally compiled by Dogie (surveys) or takes into account the countless threads that point to inconsistencies in some fabricators trustworthiness who are listed on his guide. Unfortunately this often overlooked or ignored in Dogies' evaluations and where the guide breaks down several times. This is not about "haters" it is about getting a more equitable guide for the community that reflects the complete picture so that fewer people are steered towards those companies still causing problems for customers. Maybe Dogies should look at adding a few people to the team to support his guide the sticky won't get full support of the community otherwise.

[skizzneena]

I agree.  Sticky that sucker right up there!

[Flying Hellfish]

How many times should I vote in the poll thread???

Polls are another joke on this site, with the site admin encouraging alt accounts I can't imagine it is very accurate one way of the other.

[opieum2]

Updated with poll link. Well the poll may or may not take if mods do not listen. Ignoring your community also has its consequences as well. This might be a good social experiment as well to see if mods even reply.

[dogie]

...or takes into account the countless threads that point to inconsistencies in some fabricators trustworthiness who are listed on his guide...

This is the argument that wants all 'bad' companies to have 1 trust - again I don't have control of this in a numerical system. They get the scores the system gives them in each category, which provides an overall score. I'm not sure what adding more people to come to exactly the same conclusion would be. There is no 'dogie smudge factor' with the latest system, its totally open and transparent.

[dogie]

Updated with poll link. Well the poll may or may not take if mods do not listen. Ignoring your community also has its consequences as well. This might be a good social experiment as well to see if mods even reply.

I wouldn't bother with the poll, it will be extremely skewed towards the negative, as you're seeing compared to the thread.

[aerobatic]

Updated with poll link. Well the poll may or may not take if mods do not listen. Ignoring your community also has its consequences as well. This might be a good social experiment as well to see if mods even reply.

I wouldn't bother with the poll, it will be extremely skewed towards the negative, as you're seeing compared to the thread.

The people have voted democratically in the negative, and then you complain that there's no point putting it to a vote because it will always come out negative.   Thats ridiculous!

You also have overwhelming public opinion in this thread that it shouldnt be a sticky due to personal bias and lack of objectivity.. and a public vote that also votes for there to NOT be a sticky.   Democracy in action.

BTW, for a specific example, i asked Cointerra yesterday via email and got a response back today that they claim to have not given you a freebie miner... so unless they are mistaken - your argument that you cant possibly be biassed because all hardware companies have equally given you hardware for free, seems to prove the point that in at least one case, where you didnt get given a freebie... you managed to be very tough on their scores and have received complaints by customers of cointerra that you mis-scored them and you ignore their complaints saying you havnt seen them.... and when i supply links to the somehow 'missed messages' so you can read them again,  you again choose to ignore them, claiming that they were now two weeks old and thus still invalid and not worthy of fixing in your guide.  Your guide remains, still today, unfixed and biassed.

You are definitely welcome to your opinions but your opinions wont be considered to be any sort of official guide until you have rigorous procedures that can eliminate your opinions (and avoid the conflict of having received free hardware from some but not others).  Your scores need to be fact checked and have some semblance of democratic input involved that is above reproach and systematically unbiassed.   Taking freebie miners from the hardware companies IS NOT unbiassed nor trustworthy (ironic, being that its a guide to trustworthiness) !

Dogie, perhaps in the future you could be a bit more magnanimous and allow others to contribute more fairly into the guide scores.. and you might get a different response next time.   Completely owning it and not allowing anyone else's input unless it agrees with your own opinions is the main reason why youve had this negative response.  If the guide was more democratic (decentralised even) or more 'fact based' and less 'opinion based', it would be completely different.

[Bicknellski]

...or takes into account the countless threads that point to inconsistencies in some fabricators trustworthiness who are listed on his guide...

This is the argument that wants all 'bad' companies to have 1 trust - again I don't have control of this in a numerical system. They get the scores the system gives them in each category, which provides an overall score. I'm not sure what adding more people to come to exactly the same conclusion would be. There is no 'dogie smudge factor' with the latest system, its totally open and transparent.

No. This is an argument you are not taking into account others opinions and that it would require other outside opinions or data to balance out your personal opinions on those who have caused a great deal of harm to a significant number of people. Your scale is flawed or biased take your pick and it can always be improved.

You should refine your system or add more people to the process to have this guide stickied. However yours is the best guide even with those narrow limitations of a single editor being placed on it. You are one person with an inherent bias like any other individual on this planet no matter how transparent you are you are still bias. The assumptions you make bleed into the system you build and without taking measure of alternative opinions particularly those that have had many negative experiences with some of those with "positive" ratings your system is flawed.

[xingqiaoyin]

No hell no...

Dogie gave A rating to shady lightningasic a shady company which may turn into a chinese BFL... So no...

[opieum2]

The thing is its the only one of its kind on here...or any where for that matter. One could say that about ANY review. The point is Dogies guide is right now all there is. I challenge ANYONE on here to find OR create something better. But right now it just does not exist AND its an excellent resource. Is it perfect? No! BUT it is certainly as good as its going to get. Even most of those critquing it are saying the same thing, sure they have their issues but I would rather have an 80 percent accurate review post than none at all...My ONLY advice to dogie would be to emphasize the existing disclaimer that clearly states people should do their own research as well.

He covers that very clearly. So for those critisizing it if you can do better then do so. Otherwise he is the only one with this resource/tool that helps newbies. Fact is because of all the shady crap that goes on here, its important to have some resource. Honestly based on his guide, who would you go for? Bitmain is at the top of the list. Can anyone disagree that they are not currently top of the heap in the miner world? If you can clearly explain why? They win out on price (the numbers don't lie), performance, and delivery. How many others on that list are doing that? He does his best and that is all anyone can ask. Hence the request to sticky it. If those of you complaining can come up with something better OR are willing to collaborate to come up with something better then do so. I think all his hard (FREE) work deserves the recognition here for those new to the community to see, hence the sticky request.

[Bicknellski]

The thing is its the only one of its kind on here...or any where for that matter. One could say that about ANY review. The point is Dogies guide is right now all there is. I challenge ANYONE on here to find OR create something better. But right now it just does not exist AND its an excellent resource. Is it perfect? No! BUT it is certainly as good as its going to get. Even most of those critquing it are saying the same thing, sure they have their issues but I would rather have an 80 percent accurate review post than none at all...My ONLY advice to dogie would be to emphasize the existing disclaimer that clearly states people should do their own research as well.

He covers that very clearly. So for those critisizing it if you can do better then do so. Otherwise he is the only one with this resource/tool that helps newbies. Fact is because of all the shady crap that goes on here, its important to have some resource. Honestly based on his guide, who would you go for? Bitmain is at the top of the list. Can anyone disagree that they are not currently top of the heap in the miner world? If you can clearly explain why? They win out on price (the numbers don't lie), performance, and delivery. How many others on that list are doing that? He does his best and that is all anyone can ask. Hence the request to sticky it. If those of you complaining can come up with something better OR are willing to collaborate to come up with something better then do so. I think all his hard (FREE) work deserves the recognition here for those new to the community to see, hence the sticky request.

Should it be stickied? No.
Should he continue helping people make better choices? Sure.
Should he try to listen and take constructive criticism to help improve his system? Ya he should and this is where he is failing right now.

Regardless of his system or the detailed length he goes into it or how well it is done it still is a PERSONAL evaluation based on his set of criteria. No one person is capable of collecting all the relevant information and compile it into something that can guide people to make the best choice especially given the omission of all the consumer feedback available. Call it bias or omission there are certainly many ways he can improve his rating system. Many people have posted how if he doesn't want to listen to a significant number of people then don't expect too much support for the idea of communal board to accept a 1 person benchmarked system. Sorry nope no matter how "fair" the system he creates is it has not taken a proper accounting of consumer feedback.

[xingqiaoyin]

The thing is its the only one of its kind on here...or any where for that matter. One could say that about ANY review. The point is Dogies guide is right now all there is. I challenge ANYONE on here to find OR create something better. But right now it just does not exist AND its an excellent resource. Is it perfect? No! BUT it is certainly as good as its going to get. Even most of those critquing it are saying the same thing, sure they have their issues but I would rather have an 80 percent accurate review post than none at all...My ONLY advice to dogie would be to emphasize the existing disclaimer that clearly states people should do their own research as well.

He covers that very clearly. So for those critisizing it if you can do better then do so. Otherwise he is the only one with this resource/tool that helps newbies. Fact is because of all the shady crap that goes on here, its important to have some resource. Honestly based on his guide, who would you go for? Bitmain is at the top of the list. Can anyone disagree that they are not currently top of the heap in the miner world? If you can clearly explain why? They win out on price (the numbers don't lie), performance, and delivery. How many others on that list are doing that? He does his best and that is all anyone can ask. Hence the request to sticky it. If those of you complaining can come up with something better OR are willing to collaborate to come up with something better then do so. I think all his hard (FREE) work deserves the recognition here for those new to the community to see, hence the sticky request.

Seriously doge most bitcoin manufacturers these days are not to be trusted. The best in the business KnC, bitmain, spondoolies all three of them have all delivered underspec miners lately. So what purpose does this guide serve if none of the manufacturers are to be trusted ? Stickying bad information is just bad business imho.  

[Lucky Cris]

The thing is its the only one of its kind on here...or any where for that matter. One could say that about ANY review. The point is Dogies guide is right now all there is. I challenge ANYONE on here to find OR create something better. But right now it just does not exist AND its an excellent resource. Is it perfect? No! BUT it is certainly as good as its going to get. Even most of those critquing it are saying the same thing, sure they have their issues but I would rather have an 80 percent accurate review post than none at all...My ONLY advice to dogie would be to emphasize the existing disclaimer that clearly states people should do their own research as well.

He covers that very clearly. So for those critisizing it if you can do better then do so. Otherwise he is the only one with this resource/tool that helps newbies. Fact is because of all the shady crap that goes on here, its important to have some resource. Honestly based on his guide, who would you go for? Bitmain is at the top of the list. Can anyone disagree that they are not currently top of the heap in the miner world? If you can clearly explain why? They win out on price (the numbers don't lie), performance, and delivery. How many others on that list are doing that? He does his best and that is all anyone can ask. Hence the request to sticky it. If those of you complaining can come up with something better OR are willing to collaborate to come up with something better then do so. I think all his hard (FREE) work deserves the recognition here for those new to the community to see, hence the sticky request.

Your thought process about this is little twisted. This isn't a contest to see who can do it better; no one has even hinted to that. The point that's been made over and over is that it's not as good as it's going to get because it lacks objectivity. The community has spoken - no one's complaining, these are OUR opinions, not complaints. Many people provided suggestions to make this sticky worthy... Dogie hasn't responded to any of those because it's his interpretation. And because it's his interpretation and not that of the community as a whole, it does not belong as a sticky. It's his work, not the voice of the community. If he wants to be the authority to say who's trustworthy or not, he needs to open it up so that it represents the community. If he's not, then perhaps he should create a webpage outside of the forum to solicit his interpretation.

The Mods WON'T sticky this. If they do, then they'll open the door to anybody claiming that their opinion is that of the community at large. I think not.

[alfabitcoin]

I think that setup guides for numerous miners on the market where dogie got free unit are in direct way of having trusworthiness guide what imo should not be sticky.
However we are now at times where preoders will end and full scam as in begining of asic era is rare and where should be "best buy" guide for different kind of users.

[Xian01]

I think that setup guides for numerous miners on the market where dogie got free unit are in direct way of having trusworthiness guide what imo should not be sticky.

You make a very fair point.

However we are now at times where preoders will end and full scam as in begining of asic era is rare and where should be "best buy" guide for different kind of users.

What do you propose in the interim ?

I mean, certainly not sticky-ing a thread is an option, but I'm thinking, in the absence of something "community-official", we can do far worse than Doggie's best efforts to remain objective.

It's certainly a good start at the least.

[alfabitcoin]

I think that setup guides for numerous miners on the market where dogie got free unit are in direct way of having trusworthiness guide what imo should not be sticky.

You make a very fair point.

However we are now at times where preoders will end and full scam as in begining of asic era is rare and where should be "best buy" guide for different kind of users.

What do you propose in the interim ?

I mean, certainly not sticky-ing a thread is an option, but I'm thinking, in the absence of something "community-official", we can do far worse than Doggie's best efforts to remain objective.

It's certainly a good start at the least.

I think as other stated that sticking one man opinion is mistake. Dogie guide is still good source of information what can be bumped as necessary.
I wish members with time and means should write a "best buy" guide asap.

[Flying Hellfish]

I think all his hard (FREE) work

I'm certainly not trying to be a douche here but it could be argued that he is not working for free but instead working for free miners.  A mans gotta eat, I get that and don't have an issue with it at all.  I just don't think the forum should add any weight to it by stickying it, it can stand on its own merits IMO.

[Sitarow]

The thing is his guides are the only one of its kind on here...or any where for that matter. One could say that about ANY review. The point is Dogies guide is right now all there is. I challenge ANYONE on here to find OR create something better. But right now it just does not exist AND its an excellent resource. Is it perfect? No! BUT it is certainly as good as its going to get. Even most of those critquing it are saying the same thing, sure they have their issues but I would rather have an 80 percent accurate review post than none at all...My ONLY advice to dogie would be to emphasize the existing disclaimer that clearly states people should do their own research as well.

He covers that very clearly. So for those critisizing it if you can do better then do so. Otherwise he is the only one with this resource/tool that helps newbies. Fact is because of all the shady crap that goes on here, its important to have some resource. Honestly based on his guide, who would you go for? Bitmain is at the top of the list. Can anyone disagree that they are not currently top of the heap in the miner world? If you can clearly explain why? They win out on price (the numbers don't lie), performance, and delivery. How many others on that list are doing that? He does his best and that is all anyone can ask. Hence the request to sticky it. If those of you complaining can come up with something better OR are willing to collaborate to come up with something better then do so. I think all his hard (FREE) work deserves the recognition here for those new to the community to see, hence the sticky request.

Seriously doge most bitcoin manufacturers these days are not to be trusted. The best in the business KnC, bitmain, spondoolies all three of them have all delivered underspec miners lately. So what purpose does this guide serve if none of the manufacturers are to be trusted ? Stickying bad information is just bad business imho.  

Remember at this time his guides provide awareness for the available hardware options ready for purchase.

It validates the first step of the journey when one sets on the path to purchase mining hardware.

Ultimately the end result of no guides is more victims of failed projects or disingenuous claims by unscrupulous individuals.

As far as I am conserned those who wish to jump in and try mining. Best Bet based on my experience is bitmain s3 offering. b4 b5 and soon to ship b6. It gets you to the front of the line as far as dilivery times with a respecable j/gh.

Come oct/nov I expect to see other options from other venders become available.

And lest us not forget that if there is any doubt others can perform similar report's to substantiate report results.

EDIT FOR SPELLING

[dogie]

The people have voted democratically in the negative, and then you complain that there's no point putting it to a vote because it will always come out negative.   Thats ridiculous!

I said it wouldn't match up with the comments in the thread, which it doesn't. Trolls are more likely to spam vote, and more likely to use alts to spam vote because they're malicious.

BTW, for a specific example, i asked Cointerra yesterday via email and got a response back today that they claim to have not given you a freebie miner...  you managed to be very tough on their scores...

Wait what, LOL? You were complaining that I had Cointerra too high and wasn't listening, but are now complaining that because I hadn't received 'free' CoinTerra hardware, I am now biased and have purposely put them too low. You are a troll.

If the guide was more democratic (decentralised even) or more 'fact based' and less 'opinion based', it would be completely different.

I've said this 15x now, I have no control over the scoring of any company there, every single attribute is fixed within the scoring system. Does a company have refund issues? Yes. Have some refunds been paid? 5/10. There is no opinion there.

[dogie]

...or takes into account the countless threads that point to inconsistencies in some fabricators trustworthiness who are listed on his guide...

This is the argument that wants all 'bad' companies to have 1 trust - again I don't have control of this in a numerical system. They get the scores the system gives them in each category, which provides an overall score. I'm not sure what adding more people to come to exactly the same conclusion would be. There is no 'dogie smudge factor' with the latest system, its totally open and transparent.

No. This is an argument you are not taking into account others opinions and that it would require other outside opinions or data to balance out your personal opinions on those who have caused a great deal of harm to a significant number of people. Your scale is flawed or biased take your pick and it can always be improved.

You should refine your system or add more people to the process to have this guide stickied. However yours is the best guide even with those narrow limitations of a single editor being placed on it. You are one person with an inherent bias like any other individual on this planet no matter how transparent you are you are still bias. The assumptions you make bleed into the system you build and without taking measure of alternative opinions particularly those that have had many negative experiences with some of those with "positive" ratings your system is flawed.

6th time now. THERE ARE NO OPINIONS IN THIS SYSTEM.

[Biffa]

What we normally do in other forums is have a sticky with "Useful links" which would have all the guides, and reviews of hardware that are put together.

Then slap a disclaimer at the top, something to the effect of how its up to the reader to digest the information and come up with their own conclusions etc etc, with a dose of Caveat Emptor ad-infinitum and there you go. Everyone is happy.

[dogie]

I think all his hard (FREE) work

I'm certainly not trying to be a douche here but it could be argued that he is not working for free but instead working for free miners.  A mans gotta eat, I get that and don't have an issue with it at all.  I just don't think the forum should add any weight to it by stickying it, it can stand on its own merits IMO.

I said this a few pages back, but I do NOT make money off setup guides, categorically I lose money. The unit might be 'free', but the time and equipment costs are not. Its not pointing a camera phone at a unit and uploading to imgur, its professional equipment with professional processing. And then the cell based stress testing. And then the me sitting here across 25 guides providing tech support, for free.

The only people who actually make money off the setup guides are the companies. I do this as a service for the community - maybe I should stop?

[dogie]

No hell no...

Dogie gave A rating to shady lightningasic a shady company which may turn into a chinese BFL... So no...

They are currently 11th with a score of 54, what do you want :/

[opieum2]

I think all his hard (FREE) work

I'm certainly not trying to be a douche here but it could be argued that he is not working for free but instead working for free miners.  A mans gotta eat, I get that and don't have an issue with it at all.  I just don't think the forum should add any weight to it by stickying it, it can stand on its own merits IMO.

I said this a few pages back, but I do NOT make money off setup guides, categorically I lose money. The unit might be 'free', but the time and equipment costs are not. Its not pointing a camera phone at a unit and uploading to imgur, its professional equipment with professional processing. And then the cell based stress testing. And then the me sitting here across 25 guides providing tech support, for free.

The only people who actually make money off the setup guides are the companies. I do this as a service for the community - maybe I should stop?

Honestly with all the trolling and flaming that goes on here, what this community actually needs is real moderation. Or a better managed community. It's insane to see how much crap people get away with. This was meant to be a simple sticky request. And its turned into a flame war. I think enough opinions have been expressed to make the point. Again apologies for putting you through this dogie, this was not my goal. It had hoped to just see some +1s and such but instead its degenerated like many posts in to a flame war.