Advice for new users regarding CLOUD MINING

[odolvlobo]

1TH is $2100 for a 1 year contract. $2400 for a 3 year contract.

...

Justin
www.megamine.com

The dilemma is really simple actually.

If a company sells hashing power for less than the income from the mining, then selling the hashing power is a bad business decision because they could make more money from mining than from selling the hashing power. On the other hand, if the company sells hashing power for more than the income from hashing, then the service is a money-loser for the customer.

Either way, the business makes sense for either the company or the customer, but never both.


In Megamine's case, the customer expects to have an income of at least 4.375 BTC ($2100/$480) over the next year. Otherwise, they lose money. Doing the math, the customer will make a profit if the difficulty rises less than 6% every 2016 blocks.

That seems unlikely given that the difficulty has been rising at a rate between 10% and 20% over the last 6 months. So, the reasonable prediction is that Megamine will earn more from selling hashing power than from mining, and the customer will lose money.

When the cloud mining company sells the hashing power for more than the income it will generate, it raises a new question. Why would the company bother to buy the mining equipment? All they have to do is pay the mining income out of the money raised from the initial purchase according to the contract and they make money.

[1715559126]

1715559126

[1715559126]

1715559126

[1715559126]

1715559126

[joust]

A nice analysis, but you are assuming that BTC:$ stays fixed. That removes one huge variable which of course everyone knows isn't going to stay fixed. It might go down, it might go up, but one thing it won't do over a year is stay where it is today.

It's therefore a hedge. No different than our approach in multinational companies that buy/sell product and services in £, $, € and RMB. You forward sell and spot sell to spread the currency exposure.

People will of course make their own mind up, which is cool. If people don't think mining (physical or cloud) is worth it then they won't buy either kit or cloud services, but others will take a more wide view not just on difficulty but also on where BTC:$ will go.

It's a 3 dimensional problem, not a 2-d one that your analysis portrays. If you don't think it's worth it then that's fine, just like buying shares or any other 'future value' based instrument which also aren't simple 2-d problems.

J

[odolvlobo]

A nice analysis, but you are assuming that BTC:$ stays fixed. That removes one huge variable which of course everyone knows isn't going to stay fixed. It might go down, it might go up, but one thing it won't do over a year is stay where it is today.

Not quite. Mining is really two investments: an investment in BTC, and an investment in mining equipment. This separation makes the analysis is much simpler.

Whether you are mining bitcoins or buying bitcoins, you are investing in bitcoins. The only reason to mine is to get bitcoins for a lower cost than buying them.

I find it interesting that you have danced around the last several posts in this thread. I have yet to see any cloud mining company address the dilemma. I don't think it can be addressed without admitting that they want their customers to lose money.

[Bitsaurus]

I think the main focus of the thread was to discuss the risk of fly by night entities claiming to offer cloud mining - not whether or not cloud mining would be profitable or not.

Have there been any reports of any other failed cloud mining entities or scams like lunamine?

[l3sny]

Scams? Plenty of them.

https://cloudmining.guru/scams/

this one is the most famous:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Pirateat40

[joust]

Not quite. Mining is really two investments: an investment in BTC, and an investment in mining equipment. This separation makes the analysis is much simpler.

Not quite as you get your bitcoins over time with mining, whereas if you buy them you fix the price at the moment you buy them.

No different than a regular investment unit pension fund or buying single stocks. The former (mining / unit trackers) gains "units" as the market goes up and down, the latter your profit/loss is entirely dependant on the difference between when you buy and when you want to sell.

Throw in that you can re-invest your earnings into additional contracts (AKA 'with profits' unit funds) and it's not the same at all.

J
www.megamine.com

[petersiddle98]

Cloud mining is either scam or unprofitable, either way its not worth it..

[l3sny]

You can also make profits on buying/selling shares just like on CEX. In our case (kryptologika.com) our shares are backed with physical silver which means that when buying GH/s you are buying shares in our repository of silver bullion coins. Thus you invest in GH/s and silver. You can trade them with profit or you can buy more shares and attached to it silver for BTC mined by your shares. Since we are mining on real hardware there are maintenance costs of course but these are reasonable and the whole mining undertaking is more or less the same as mining with your ASIC. At the moment we have the best offer on the planet.

Here's our press note from Monday:
http://bitcoin.einnews.com/article/221528446/b6m2AiWrl4xtt30d

So our shares will be fluctuating not only because of the changing difficulty but also silver price may have impact on them. And we believe that silver will be big sooner rather than later

[Corenin]

You can also make profits on buying/selling shares just like on CEX. In our case (kryptologika.com) our shares are backed with physical silver which means that when buying GH/s you are buying shares in our repository of silver bullion coins. Thus you invest in GH/s and silver. You can trade them with profit or you can buy more shares andattached to it silver for BTC mined by your shares. Since we are mining on real hardware there are maintenance costs of course but these are reasonable and the whole mining undertaking is more or less the same as mining with your ASIC. At the moment we have the best offer on the planet.

Here's our press note from Monday:
http://bitcoin.einnews.com/article/221528446/b6m2AiWrl4xtt30d

But buying and selling hash is more of a trading then cloud mining, so it still doesn't mean its good to invest in cloud mining..

[l3sny]

You can also make profits on buying/selling shares just like on CEX. In our case (kryptologika.com) our shares are backed with physical silver which means that when buying GH/s you are buying shares in our repository of silver bullion coins. Thus you invest in GH/s and silver. You can trade them with profit or you can buy more shares andattached to it silver for BTC mined by your shares. Since we are mining on real hardware there are maintenance costs of course but these are reasonable and the whole mining undertaking is more or less the same as mining with your ASIC. At the moment we have the best offer on the planet.

Here's our press note from Monday:
http://bitcoin.einnews.com/article/221528446/b6m2AiWrl4xtt30d

But buying and selling hash is more of a trading then cloud mining, so it still doesn't mean its good to invest in cloud mining..

Our shares are affected by five factors: price of bitcoin, difficulty, price of the equipment, price of silver and costs of electricity. We have a limited control over  the maintenance fees only. All the rest is upon the market. But if BTC goes up and silver goes  our shares should also be priced higher by the market. So technically even if they go down in price over time the BTC mined during that period would buffer it to some extent. If there are more buyers the liquidity should improve. So all the factors show that now it may be profitable to buy some. The lowest quantum is 1GH/s so you do not risk too much.

Look at CEX and their prices. They are very expensive but there are still plenty of people willing to buy shares that have less than zero chances to mine what they cost in BTC. And we will be also offering our shares for fiat in a couple of weeks.

  

[joust]

Buying and selling hash is more of a trading then cloud mining, so it still doesn't mean its good to invest in cloud mining..

Like any 'investment' you need to take a view.

This is why all over our site we tell people that we can't advise them, and point them at Independent Financial Advisors to get advice if they need it.

Of course there are many cases where 'sound' investments have gone wrong (Enron anyone....), but also where 'crazy loss making' investments have proved exceptional returns (pretty much most of the Internet). I do fondly remember people telling me after Easynet's share price collapsed from £27 to £2 post March 10, 2000 (the dot.com bubble) that it was all 'rubbish'.

This is why I personally like threads like this, it shows a wide range of views and then informed decisions can be made by people reading it. I'm not going to tell you that mining contracts are guaranteed to make you money because a) legally I can't, and b) that is clearly rubbish. You may make a loss, or you may make an overall profit, or you may just get your money back.

I can't tell you which because I can't tell you what difficulty or the BTC:$ price will do any more than someone else can.

But then neither can I tell you which share stock to buy. Doesn't stop me investing in stocks nor many others.

J

[Arctic]

You can also make profits on buying/selling shares just like on CEX. In our case (kryptologika.com) our shares are backed with physical silver which means that when buying GH/s you are buying shares in our repository of silver bullion coins. Thus you invest in GH/s and silver.

This makes absolutely zero sense.

According to your website you allocate 0.0311 grams of silver for every GH/s = 1 troy oz per TH/s.

Yesterday's price for silver was about $19.22 per oz.  

On what planet does $19 of silver 'back' a couple of thousand dollars worth of hashing contract??


And, even we make the assumption that you are legit, and you are buying some real assets to 'back' a contract, you either spend the money on the hashing kit/power/cloud provider OR on some other physical asset.  If you want to buy both it would cost you twice as much...

[l3sny]

Silver is $19.22 today and that's why we are buying more Eagles, Philharmonikers and Canadian Maple Leafs. This is an extra added value to TH/s with potential to go much higher. Silver reached $50 in 1980 (and $50 then was same as say $300 today, perhaps even more) and again in 2011 around $49. With cheaper and cheaper hashing power I think it is a good idea to stick to something physical. Please read How it Works and T&C on our website.

In what sense you question our legitimacy? At this stage we are still in beta however I am not anonymous and easy to find.
Once fiat payment are in place in a few weeks there will be info about our company this undertaking will be transferred to.

I appreciate your concenrs and criticism. In the case you were interested here is a our thread on bitcointalk:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=732733.0

[Arctic]

If I wanted to own silver I'd just go and buy some.   


What are you doing other than just adding the price of the silver ($19) on to the price of the hashing contract ($1xxx) and saying the value of the contract will never drop below the price of an oz of silver?

[bitgeek]

I bought hashlets and am happy with the results.
Here's the thread if you want to know more
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752233.200

[l3sny]

@Arctic

Absolutely we highly recommend you physical buying silver!

Apart from adding silver to the hashrate (please note that it is a freebee!) we are trying to keep the maintenance costs as low as possible. We have reduced them by 2% just 3 weeks after we started. Perhaps it is not too much but it demonstrates our commitment to provide the most cost effective offer we can.

Currently we work on API for fiat payments.
We hope this would provide better liquidity and more orders.

We are happy to hear any suggestions especially those criticizing  

[ScryptAsic]

I bought hashlets and am happy with the results.
Here's the thread if you want to know more
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=752233.200

Nice for you, hopefully you ROI before the difficulty sky rocket..

[jonnybravo0311]

Buying and selling hash is more of a trading then cloud mining, so it still doesn't mean its good to invest in cloud mining..

Like any 'investment' you need to take a view.

This is why all over our site we tell people that we can't advise them, and point them at Independent Financial Advisors to get advice if they need it.

Of course there are many cases where 'sound' investments have gone wrong (Enron anyone....), but also where 'crazy loss making' investments have proved exceptional returns (pretty much most of the Internet). I do fondly remember people telling me after Easynet's share price collapsed from £27 to £2 post March 10, 2000 (the dot.com bubble) that it was all 'rubbish'.

This is why I personally like threads like this, it shows a wide range of views and then informed decisions can be made by people reading it. I'm not going to tell you that mining contracts are guaranteed to make you money because a) legally I can't, and b) that is clearly rubbish. You may make a loss, or you may make an overall profit, or you may just get your money back.

I can't tell you which because I can't tell you what difficulty or the BTC:$ price will do any more than someone else can.

But then neither can I tell you which share stock to buy. Doesn't stop me investing in stocks nor many others.

J

Justin,

You and I have engaged in a great discussion throughout this thread, and have expressed our opinions and views on the merits of cloud mining, the possibilities of positive return on investment, pricing models, etc.  While we may have had differences of opinions, I absolutely and wholeheartedly support what you've written in the quote.  Very well written.

+1

[FinalHash]

FinalHash, come post your company's info in my thread.  While I personally do not feel that cloud mining is useful to me and it may potentially harm the network through centralization, I do see a place for it in getting people new to crypto involved with the mining process if nothing other than a learning tool.

My thread was meant to warn new users of the risks of potential ponzis and scams by people pretending to run cloud mining companies (right as lunamine ran off with 2000BTC).  If you have a legitimate company post the details here along with link to your website and proof of incorporation or at least of having mining equipment.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=739510.0

DrG,

Thanks for the reply bro.

Company Info:
http://www.bizapedia.com/wy/FINALHASHCOMLLC.html
We are incorporated in Wyoming but operate mostly out of Texas and Abroad.

As far as the website goes it is www.finalhash.com although I'll warn you it has not been updated in a long while due to the entire company being slammed with all of our projects.

As far as what we do, kind of a very broad answer would be "everything"

Generally, we are always background players. Hence, the one day old Bitcointalk account. However, some of our projects include:
+Exchange operation (private customers only)
+Crypto Tech Consultation (I personally do alot of consulting on new crypto chips coming out) and other things along those lines like pool fixes and things where people need a helping hand where my swat team goes in and saves the day.
+We have our FinCen MSB license--> you can guess what that is used for
+We run the Hashers United conference circuit (the inaugural one being this october in vegas) www.hashersunited.com
+BTC investment advising

and alot more stuff

if you have questions you can always email me directly (email should be visible on my account here)

TBH we generally do not dabble in consumer hardware sales in the typical sense. We are not an ASIC retailer. I mean sometimes we will proxy big deals for direct manufacturer pricing but only for folks who are close friends in the industry. So as far as goods we offer, hardware would not be one of them, however generally we do play a roll in the sales cycle upstream.

Questions?

[worldcup]

Cloud mining is either scam or unprofitable, either way its not worth it..

find one that can be trusted,
be a team, help each other, i'm sure you can be profitable