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Author Topic: ⭐Crypto-Games.net ⭐4 Years Old ⭐LARGEST wagering contest⭐New Game - Minesweeper  (Read 263277 times)
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November 09, 2017, 07:06:34 AM
 #2921

Hi Lutpin, I must say again I'm a little disappointed  with the fact that the fee system for withdrawals is not, to me totally transparent. This might not matter to the majority of gamblers, but for smaller investors like me, it makes a difference, and is an issue.

You said earlier that the transaction fee slider is in the units BTC / Kb. (i.e. based on the size of the transaction).

I just withdrew 0.5747133 BTC. I selected the transaction fee slider to 0.00156000 BTC, expecting that the total balance (i.e. 0.5747133) will be sent, MINUS a transaction fee per kb, OF 0.00156BTC/kb. (so for example if transaction size is 300 bytes, I'd have expected to be sent 0.5747133 - 0.00156/1024*300 = 0.574256269.

Now what's actually happened was TWO things:
https://blockchain.info/tx/f92697229a778f6d7884cd9cd4dbc63ca0f84ea59322a33ae781125b9d36b010

1) Only 0.57315332 BTC was sent, therefore 0.00156 (approx $11.70 USD) was taken a SEPARATE FEE to Crypto-games.
2) A transaction fee per kb of 0.00156BTC / KB was used to send the transaction in 1) to the blockchain.

Therefore the ACTUAL fee assumed a transaction size of 1KB (and applied that fee to me, on that basis), even though the ACTUAL transaction size was only 224 Bytes, therefore I paid a significantly larger fee than I thought I would.

I know you might attack me and say I'm wrong. I like the site, and the ability to invest, I just don't know why the fee system isn't clearer and also cheaper. From the link, I expected to pay 0.00034944 BTC (Which was the actual transaction charge for putting it on the blockchain, not 0.00156).

Additionally, I have other investments in other coins but have no idea how fees work for them. For example, the slider can't all be based on fee per kb because ETH has a different system (uses gas). Are you able to make it clearer to everyone on how fees work?


yeah, i bet everyday 5-10 people wd like you did thinking it would cost $2.59 to wd. letting the player pay $11.70 and doesnt know its gonna be that much is wrong.

but of course luptin is calling you stupid for not understanding how blockchain and fees work.


because all gamblers know everything about blockchain and fees per k and how to mine ect.



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November 09, 2017, 07:30:31 AM
 #2922

For perspective, Yolodice allows you to withdraw for only 15,000 Sat (regardless of the network), they probably make a loss on that but for people like me it keeps us happy.
Deposit fee: 368 satoshis  (since there's a consolidation overhead for deposits)
Charging for deposits  Grin

Hi Lutpin, I must say again I'm a little disappointed  with the fact that the fee system for withdrawals is not, to me totally transparent. This might not matter to the majority of gamblers, but for smaller investors like me, it makes a difference, and is an issue.

You said earlier that the transaction fee slider is in the units BTC / Kb. (i.e. based on the size of the transaction).

I just withdrew 0.5747133 BTC. I selected the transaction fee slider to 0.00156000 BTC, expecting that the total balance (i.e. 0.5747133) will be sent, MINUS a transaction fee per kb, OF 0.00156BTC/kb. (so for example if transaction size is 300 bytes, I'd have expected to be sent 0.5747133 - 0.00156/1024*300 = 0.574256269.

Now what's actually happened was TWO things:
https://blockchain.info/tx/f92697229a778f6d7884cd9cd4dbc63ca0f84ea59322a33ae781125b9d36b010

1) Only 0.57315332 BTC was sent, therefore 0.00156 (approx $11.70 USD) was taken a SEPARATE FEE to Crypto-games.
2) A transaction fee per kb of 0.00156BTC / KB was used to send the transaction in 1) to the blockchain.

Therefore the ACTUAL fee assumed a transaction size of 1KB (and applied that fee to me, on that basis), even though the ACTUAL transaction size was only 224 Bytes, therefore I paid a significantly larger fee than I thought I would.

I know you might attack me and say I'm wrong. I like the site, and the ability to invest, I just don't know why the fee system isn't clearer and also cheaper. From the link, I expected to pay 0.00034944 BTC (Which was the actual transaction charge for putting it on the blockchain, not 0.00156).

Additionally, I have other investments in other coins but have no idea how fees work for them. For example, the slider can't all be based on fee per kb because ETH has a different system (uses gas). Are you able to make it clearer to everyone on how fees work?

yeah, i bet everyday 5-10 people wd like you did thinking it would cost $2.59 to wd. letting the player pay $11.70 and doesnt know its gonna be that much is wrong.

but of course luptin is calling you stupid for not understanding how blockchain and fees work.

because all gamblers know everything about blockchain and fees per k and how to mine ect.
They know exactly how much they'll pay before executing withdrawal. If they position slider to the left, they'll pay 0.0006 btc, if they want fast withdrawals, they'll slide it to the right and pay 0.003 btc. It's player choice how much they'll willing to pay for withdrawing their funds.


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November 09, 2017, 07:37:35 AM
 #2923

While you're on the subject of transaction fees can I ask if you have any plans to support withdrawals to bech32 BTC addresses as implemented in Electrum version 3?

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November 09, 2017, 08:16:33 AM
 #2924

While you're on the subject of transaction fees can I ask if you have any plans to support withdrawals to bech32 BTC addresses as implemented in Electrum version 3?
BIP173 base32/bech32 is still very new and not commonly used yet, AFAIK the only wallet currently able to send Coins to base32/bech32 addresses is Electrum itself.
If base32/bech32 happens to become the standard for segwit addresses (which imo is likely, opposing to current p2sh), or even just becomes commonly used besides p2sh,
it's going to be integrated and you'll be able to withdraw to a base32/bech32 address.

As to when this option will be available, I can't really make a prediction yet.


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November 09, 2017, 08:42:24 AM
 #2925

Thanks for the prompt reply Lutpin.

AFAIK the only wallet currently able to send Coins to base32/bech32 addresses is Electrum itself.

That was what I thought but when I asked over on the Electrum board I got this answer.

The support for bech32 is indeed very weak but Bitcoin Core can also send to (and receive) this address if you compile from github source. The bech32 support was included in commit aa624b6. There might be some other wallets that support it because these transactions can be spotted in the wild from time to time.

If this is the case then hopefully it will speed up adoption. Anyway, I have a nice new wallet ready for it when it comes.

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November 09, 2017, 08:44:56 AM
Last edit: November 09, 2017, 09:04:44 AM by jamie1029
 #2926


They know exactly how much they'll pay before executing withdrawal. If they position slider to the left, they'll pay 0.0006 btc, if they want fast withdrawals, they'll slide it to the right and pay 0.003 btc. It's player choice how much they'll willing to pay for withdrawing their funds.

I'm sorry, but I think you're missing the point. It's less about the fact that the site is charging higher transaction fees. It's more about, based on reading the FAQ/blog, most players/investors will assume the slider gives full control of the actual fee paid, and that it's totally dependent on network conditions, with crypto-games taking no cut, but that's simply not the case.

Reading below (From blog):
Example: I paid 0.0008 BTC for withdrawal fees, but blockchain shows it was paid less, why?
In this example we paid 0.0008 BTC fees per one kB. It is not possible for us to give good estimates, or an estimate at all, of how large your transaction will be. When a transactions size is lesser than a kB, the transaction fee is lower than 0.0008 BTC accordingly. Same goes to different amounts.


I can't help believe this is cleverly worded. It could mean:
1) The transaction fee sent to the blockchain is lower than 0.0008 (which means nothing to the user, and is irrelevant)
2) The transaction fee charged by crypto-games to the user is less than 0.0008 (this is what actually user thought should happen based on that wording, but doesn't).
This is a CLEVER way to charge users more without them knowing it!

I think I've made my point. No transaction fee size is 1kb, therefore your fees are significantly higher than other sites, well to be exact, over 10 times higher than Yolodice for lower fee per kb, therefore I'm going to have to agree with jpcfan. Being 10 times higher (although not ideal, but a separate topic) is not a problem in itself (ie you have other benefits like lower investment commission), it's hiding this fee in a confused fee/kb scenario that is a problem --> Most users wont think they are charged higher fees but are shocked when they see the txid.

Now I see two potential replies to this post. 1) I'm wrong (and telling me why) and I shouldn't bother to play on the site anymore coz you don't care, or 2) You've listened to me and take my point and may possibly look at the situation. I hope it's 2) but I think it will be 1) Smiley
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November 09, 2017, 09:16:09 AM
 #2927

but of course luptin is calling you stupid for not understanding how blockchain and fees work.
I didn't call them stupid, do not put words in my mouth.
Also, please learn how to spell my name, if you have to address me.

because all gamblers know everything about blockchain and fees per k and how to mine ect.
Think I've taken my time to explain certain aspects, haven't I?



The support for bech32 is indeed very weak but Bitcoin Core can also send to (and receive) this address if you compile from github source. The bech32 support was included in commit aa624b6. There might be some other wallets that support it because these transactions can be spotted in the wild from time to time.
If this is the case then hopefully it will speed up adoption. Anyway, I have a nice new wallet ready for it when it comes.
I'd rather wait for a stable release than compiling from a mid-development commit.
It's likely to be included in the next stable version, so you can expect base32 support shortly after.


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November 09, 2017, 09:18:40 AM
 #2928


They know exactly how much they'll pay before executing withdrawal. If they position slider to the left, they'll pay 0.0006 btc, if they want fast withdrawals, they'll slide it to the right and pay 0.003 btc. It's player choice how much they'll willing to pay for withdrawing their funds.

I'm sorry, but I think you're missing the point. It's less about the fact that the site is charging higher transaction fees. It's more about, based on reading the FAQ/blog, most players/investors will assume the slider gives full control of the actual fee paid, and that it's totally dependent on network conditions, with crypto-games taking no cut, but that's simply not the case.

Reading below (From blog):
Example: I paid 0.0008 BTC for withdrawal fees, but blockchain shows it was paid less, why?
In this example we paid 0.0008 BTC fees per one kB. It is not possible for us to give good estimates, or an estimate at all, of how large your transaction will be. When a transactions size is lesser than a kB, the transaction fee is lower than 0.0008 BTC accordingly. Same goes to different amounts.


I can't help believe this is cleverly worded. It could mean:
1) The transaction fee sent to the blockchain is lower than 0.0008 (which means nothing to the user, and is irrelevant)
2) The transaction fee charged by crypto-games to the user is less than 0.0008 (this is what actually user thought should happen based on that wording, but doesn't).
This is a CLEVER way to charge users more without them knowing it!

I think I've made my point. No transaction fee size is 1kb, therefore your fees are significantly higher than other sites, well to be exact, over 10 times higher than Yolodice for lower fee per kb, therefore I'm going to have to agree with jpcfan. Being 10 times higher (although not ideal, but a separate topic) is not a problem in itself (ie you have other benefits like lower investment commission), it's hiding this fee in a confused fee/kb scenario that is a problem --> Most users wont think they are charged higher fees but are shocked when they see the txid.

Now I see two potential replies to this post. 1) I'm wrong (and telling me why) and I shouldn't bother to play on the site anymore coz you don't care, or 2) You've listened to me and take my point and may possibly look at the situation. I hope it's 2) but I think it will be 1) Smiley


of course luptin will say your wrong. for some reason they think all gamblers know how cryptocurrency works. every aspect . but we are gamblers. we gamble.

when we gamble at casino site that doesnt take crypto, deposit and withdraws are simple and you pay exact same fee everytime.

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November 09, 2017, 09:21:51 AM
Last edit: November 09, 2017, 09:36:06 AM by Lutpin
 #2929

of course luptin will say your wrong. for some reason they think all gamblers know how cryptocurrency works. every aspect . but we are gamblers. we gamble.
For god's sake, stop assuming what I will say or claiming I did say things that I did not.



Reading below (From blog):
Example: I paid 0.0008 BTC for withdrawal fees, but blockchain shows it was paid less, why?
In this example we paid 0.0008 BTC fees per one kB. It is not possible for us to give good estimates, or an estimate at all, of how large your transaction will be. When a transactions size is lesser than a kB, the transaction fee is lower than 0.0008 BTC accordingly. Same goes to different amounts.

I think this section in the blog post is badly worded, however without any malicious intent.
It's not meant to be confusing, but maybe you can misunderstand it due to that.
I've proposed an update for this specific part to make it more clearly and better understandable for users.


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November 09, 2017, 10:02:16 AM
 #2930

...

And after all, Lightning is just around the corner, possibly instant deposits and withdrawals with close to no fees, an interesting time, to say the least.

I don´t share the same optimism regarding Lightning. The technology is great and very talented developers are working on it.
However, I have read in various sources that the actual launch is still more than a year away.

As we all know, development roadmaps are prone to postponements (hey, Ethereum  Grin) due to unforeseen issues and
extensive testing before releasing the code. This could indicate even longer delays until the Lightning network
is actually live and available for use.

After all, I think the fee situation will improve in the next weeks, because several malicious actors that have been
spamming the blockchain have lost the incentive to do this due to Segwit2x being called off.



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November 09, 2017, 12:00:45 PM
 #2931

...
And after all, Lightning is just around the corner, possibly instant deposits and withdrawals with close to no fees, an interesting time, to say the least.
I don´t share the same optimism regarding Lightning. The technology is great and very talented developers are working on it.
However, I have read in various sources that the actual launch is still more than a year away.
I do admit I might have exaggerated there a tiny little bit.
Between you and me, I'm pretty excited about Lightning and the possibilities it will bring.

Yet I do know that most clients have hardly reached beta status right now, and it can take a decent while before anything is ready for release, even then, LN won't have its full impact rigth from the beginning.
On the other hand, the eclair testnet version seemed very promising when I had tested it a while back.




Now I see two potential replies to this post. 1) I'm wrong (and telling me why) and I shouldn't bother to play on the site anymore coz you don't care, or 2) You've listened to me and take my point and may possibly look at the situation. I hope it's 2)
There's been two updates to improve the overall user experience with bitcoin withdrawals.

First: Withdrawal fees are now based on 500 byte transaction size instead of 1000 byte transaction size, meaning effectively a 50% cut in costs for users compared to the previous system.
This goes in line with current average transaction sizes (reference: https://tradeblock.com/bitcoin/historical/1d-f-tsize_per_avg-01101), which range between 450 and 600 byte.
As a result, fees charged by the site should much better represent fees paid for transactions.

Second: The blogpost was updated with a better explanation of how the withdrawal fees a user pays and the transaction fees the site pays are corelated.
This should help to avoid any misunderstandings about how much fees a user is charged. You can take a look at it here: http://blog.crypto-games.net/2017/02/withdrawals-q.html

Example: I was charged 0.0005 BTC fees for my withdrawal, but the bitcoin transaction sent used a lower fee, why does this happen?
The withdrawal fee charged to a user issuing a withdrawal is the fee for a transaction with the size of 500 bytes (which is the current median transaction size according to tradeblock), in this exemplary case, 0.0005 BTC. The actual transaction sent uses a per kB fee that’s twice the size of your charged withdrawal fee (in this example, 0.0005 BTC are charged, and 0.001 BTC per kB are used). However, if the transaction is smaller than the average, the total fee will be lower accordingly. Likewise, if the transaction is bigger than the average, the total fee will be higher accordingly. In either case, the fee charged to the user will be the same, 0.0005 BTC, as it’s not possible to estimate the size a withdrawal transaction will have before the withdrawal is requested. In any way, the fee you are being charged is always the fee that is shown on the slider (“withdrawal fee”), where you select the fees, and the amount you receive is always the amount shown in the withdrawal popup (“Withdrawal amount after fees”).


Unchanged, but notably mentions:

The withdrawal fee charged to a user was always and will always be the one shown above the slider ("withdrawal fee"), whatever you set the slider to will be what you will pay for your withdrawal.
In no case will a user be charged more than what they set the slider on.

The amount sent in a withdrawal was always and will always be the one shown on the bottom right of the withdrawal window ("withdrawal amount after fees").
In no case will a user receive less than what they are shown in this area.


Let me know if you have any further questions about the way withdrawals and fees are handled.


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November 09, 2017, 12:08:49 PM
 #2932

Let me know if you have any further questions about the way withdrawals and fees are handled.
A small problem, masterfully managed. Thank you.
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November 09, 2017, 07:07:09 PM
 #2933

096]

Let me know if you have any further questions about the way withdrawals and fees are handled.

Thank you very much for lowering the fees for Bitcoin and making the FAQ clearer to avoid any and all confusion.

While we are on the topic, will you be reviewing the 'assumed' average transaction size (or equivalent) of other coins to brings costs down, and in line with the adjustments you made to BTC? I actually have investments in other coins and would be happy to see these fees come down to be more reasonable too.
For example, I have no idea what assumptions are used for withdrawal of Ether, but a fee of 0.0075 ETH is recommended (less than this, it says there will be network delays), this is approx 2.47USD.
From https://ethgasstation.info/ with a standard gas price of 1gwei and using 21,000 GAS this equates to a fee of (0.000000001*329*21000 = $0.0069, 0.7 Min predicted wait).
This means the site is charging 357 times a fee that would take on average 0.7 mins to confirm and warns of slow transaction times if a lower site fee is used.
Would be hugely great if transaction fees can come down alot for alts, after that I believe investments and more gamblers will come to the site. Thanks.
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November 09, 2017, 07:35:29 PM
 #2934

096]

Let me know if you have any further questions about the way withdrawals and fees are handled.

Thank you very much for lowering the fees for Bitcoin and making the FAQ clearer to avoid any and all confusion.

While we are on the topic, will you be reviewing the 'assumed' average transaction size (or equivalent) of other coins to brings costs down, and in line with the adjustments you made to BTC? I actually have investments in other coins and would be happy to see these fees come down to be more reasonable too.
For example, I have no idea what assumptions are used for withdrawal of Ether, but a fee of 0.0075 ETH is recommended (less than this, it says there will be network delays), this is approx 2.47USD.
From https://ethgasstation.info/ with a standard gas price of 1gwei and using 21,000 GAS this equates to a fee of (0.000000001*329*21000 = $0.0069, 0.7 Min predicted wait).
This means the site is charging 357 times a fee that would take on average 0.7 mins to confirm and warns of slow transaction times if a lower site fee is used.
Would be hugely great if transaction fees can come down alot for alts, after that I believe investments and more gamblers will come to the site. Thanks.
You can choose the lowest fee available if you want.


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November 09, 2017, 09:22:44 PM
 #2935

096]

Let me know if you have any further questions about the way withdrawals and fees are handled.

Thank you very much for lowering the fees for Bitcoin and making the FAQ clearer to avoid any and all confusion.

While we are on the topic, will you be reviewing the 'assumed' average transaction size (or equivalent) of other coins to brings costs down, and in line with the adjustments you made to BTC? I actually have investments in other coins and would be happy to see these fees come down to be more reasonable too.
For example, I have no idea what assumptions are used for withdrawal of Ether, but a fee of 0.0075 ETH is recommended (less than this, it says there will be network delays), this is approx 2.47USD.
From https://ethgasstation.info/ with a standard gas price of 1gwei and using 21,000 GAS this equates to a fee of (0.000000001*329*21000 = $0.0069, 0.7 Min predicted wait).
This means the site is charging 357 times a fee that would take on average 0.7 mins to confirm and warns of slow transaction times if a lower site fee is used.
Would be hugely great if transaction fees can come down alot for alts, after that I believe investments and more gamblers will come to the site. Thanks.
You can choose the lowest fee available if you want.

Yeah, just speaking from personal experience, it usually doesn't take more than a day to confirm if you choose the lowest fee.
I mean, your transaction could theoretically get stuck for a few days, but that almost never happens.

I've picked the lowest fee a couple of times, never had to wait more than 24 hours.


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November 09, 2017, 09:25:50 PM
 #2936

Does anyone have any experience investing with this company?
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November 09, 2017, 10:51:13 PM
 #2937

Does anyone have any experience investing with this company?
I invested and had a good experience.  While it sometimes took a week or two almost all my investments turned positive and stayed there.

Note that you should read the FAQ carefully, as there is a penalty for withdrawing before three weeks have elapsed.

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November 09, 2017, 11:16:15 PM
 #2938

*Thursday's Ethereum lottery (Round 76) draw results:

Place   Nickname       Owned Tickets   Winning Ticket   Chance of winning   Reward in Ethereum
1rerobert43410.526%0.0760 ETH
2DemiGod255.263%0.0143 ETH
3Goobersmooch1162.632%0.0057 ETH


Congratulations to all winners!



Join our provably fair Video Poker and win up to 30 BTC (max betsize = 0.06 BTC, royal flush = x500 payout).




Does anyone have any experience investing with this company?
I invested and had a good experience.  While it sometimes took a week or two almost all my investments turned positive and stayed there.

Note that you should read the FAQ carefully, as there is a penalty for withdrawing before three weeks have elapsed.

That's divest fee, which is also shown on your investment board.






Catch the winning spirit!


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cypher21
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November 10, 2017, 05:50:48 AM
 #2939

Does anyone have any experience investing with this company?
I invested and had a good experience.  While it sometimes took a week or two almost all my investments turned positive and stayed there.

Note that you should read the FAQ carefully, as there is a penalty for withdrawing before three weeks have elapsed.

i have no account their longer.
so investments are still active? Can you say something about the monthly earning? Is is more then 1 %?
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November 10, 2017, 07:27:43 AM
 #2940

so investments are still active? Can you say something about the monthly earning? Is is more then 1 %?
Check out this thread to see the percentage of dividends paid per month. It's not updated anymore AFAIK, but it gives a good idea about the returns.
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