Monero Economy Workgroup - The MEW Thread

[rpietila]

May I suggest that the probably be changed to never.

I don't consider being able to freely vote as being equal to big holders supporting the "hobby-participation" of the smaller ones.

One man's hobby is another man's life.

We are on the same page, but:

1) never say never

2) even if there says "never" in the Articles of Association, it only means "until 2/3 of the votes otherwise decide".

If any decision of the MEW CV is too much for any member or a group of them, the following will happen:

To give weight to the vote, it is possible to attach a conditional resignation to the vote. If the result comes against such voter, he is automatically resigned from MEW as a result and refunded. If the vote was concerning spending and the voter was against it, his refund is calculated prior to the spending takes place. It is not possible to revert such resignation except by applying membership anew.
- - -
The size of GF divided by the number of votes outstanding, gives the net asset value (NAV) per vote. In the event that a member's number of votes is reduced, the NAV for the votes surrendered is refunded to the member.

[NewLiberty]

In order to encourage joining, MEW had decided to dispense early members of any handling fees and to accept subscriptions starting from 10 XMR.
The early access period will stop in exactly 1 week, on the 16th of October at 23h59 UTC. Starting from the 17th, the minimum number of votes will be 50 XMR and the one-time handling fees will be 10 XMR, all paid at the same address

MEW initial decisions
Handling fees

• Processing a new member request
• Buying more votes for an existing member
• Change in identity information
• Change in how a member's votepower is proxied
• Casting a vote
• Refunding of votes to a member in downgrade or resignation
• Time-based charge for fulfilling special requests (applies to non-members as well)
• The fees are donations paid directly to the administrative clerk (ME or his deputy) and do not go to the GF.

For easier handling, the fees are paid at the same address as the registration - the administrative clerk will then proceed with separation of funds.

Did I understand that correctly -- 10 XMR fee to cast a vote?

That is really excessive especially for smaller members.

If so please refund my membership.

Do you really want to discourage voting and participation?  How are you going to get a community consensus without the community?

To clarify a bit on fees, this is my understanding from reading this:

• The 10XMR is a one time fee for signing up.  It is being waived for the first week.
• There is no fee for casting votes.
• You get as many votes as you buy, this is called your votepower, you get to use those votes in every ballot, they are not lost or used up.  You will see how this is done in the current discussion about an item brought for pre-vote discussion.

There is also a yearly renewal fee (not mentioned in the text but as I recall it is in the reference document).

[smooth]

I am very interested in hearing how cheap David is ready to sell his time. Even my Estonian car mechanic charged 39€/hour (46 XMR). Hopefully David's time is more valuable - but even if not, please no not bother him with the official matters too much, he is important for the project, for the core team, for the MEW, for Malla and for what not

I'm selling my time way too cheap, but I do it because I want Monero to succeed - and at my current price it is mostly symbolic - I only spend 10 minutes per account under the very best circumstances and this is not even considering the future handlings that I will have to take care of for probably months on.

I plan to only lower the handling when XMR will go way up compared to fiat.

The other thing that may happen is that the group gets larger and a lot of the administrative tasks can be automated. Fees for things like signup might still make sense as a fundraiser though, even if all the work is being done by a computer at a negligible direct cost.

[nioc]

Pardon my emotional reaction.  I know a great deal of thought has gone into this and I understand the perspective from which it was created.  Considering the quality of people involved I imagine that the right things will be done.

[wedgy2k]

sent    : 10 xmr
Wallet : 4AHDacN4rVtFTfyc2hTXqCD5apS25YEtCcG16jVVcyW69MG1PHWua5j1AiJXTdVAk7jDPUZDijBfabd nHk2REKsC7L4qpKK
id       : 0476e40e64f29906a5bfca6fce5719196763144aa57a82e7fbab2176b23d22ca
irc       :  wedgy2k

Sent from POLO - Your withdrawal has been successfully confirmed

[owlcatz]

Hi i've upped my ante from a measly 10 to now 50 xmr:

sent: 40.1 XMR
Payment ID: DDC8838ADDC0C6721F343E186ECFB7BDEFCE0E372386B999E029CFF948F237E7
irc - owlcatz

thanks!

[tugwert]

sent : 20 xmr
id     : 65e9d6af27d310f919dbcb23198318bb308d10e8cf0c09b831a3a4c73eb9aca3
irc    : tugwert

[smooth]

I'd like to suggest a small rule change. During the discussion of proposal #1, a change was made to the text of the proposal at the very end of the 168-hour discussion period, and then voting started almost immediately. My suggestion would be that in such cases the discussion period be extended for a short time, perhaps 24 hours.

[rpietila]

I'd like to suggest a small rule change. During the discussion of proposal #1, a change was made to the text of the proposal at the very end of the 168-hour discussion period, and then voting started almost immediately. My suggestion would be that in such cases the discussion period be extended for a short time, perhaps 24 hours.

Sounds good. We are all learning it here

[NewLiberty]

Casting a vote is listed just to show that nothing is holy. It is unlikely that casting a vote will cost anything. The votes are bought "per vote" basis, and charging for voting with a "per member" basis is unfair towards small vote holders. Charging by "per vote" is also not going to happen - we decided that we do not do it, and instead the votes carry a yearly fee and the votepower may thus be exercised in every voting without paying separately.

If there is an issue which is close to your heart and you want to increase your votepower in order to grant your vote greater weight, doing so also supports development and is encouraged, up to the 1000 votepower limit (1000XMR).

[thud]

sent: 50 XMR
id: 8425ddd6fd0f9ad807193fb21dfa5b497a08a44a326e8c0ed2603d5338e6bec5
irc: thud_

[rpietila]

A D V E R T I S E M E N T  -  O P P O R T U N I T Y

The early adopter phase of the Monero virtual world - Crypto Kingdom is starting NOW.

If you are interested in the game, want to fund its development, and enjoy a bit of speculation, now it is possible to buy ingame gold. Minimum at this point is for 100 XMR (about BTC0.25) but it will be listed soon and then smaller lots become possible.

MEW members get a 20% discount, up to the maximum purchase that is equal to their MEW votepower. Purchases higher than this go at normal price. MEW discount will be removed some time before ingame gold becomes freely tradable.

[NewLiberty]

A D V E R T I S E M E N T  -  O P P O R T U N I T Y

The early adopter phase of the Monero virtual world - Crypto Kingdom is starting NOW.

If you are interested in the game, want to fund its development, and enjoy a bit of speculation, now it is possible to buy ingame gold. Minimum at this point is for 100 XMR (about BTC2.5) but it will be listed soon and then smaller lots become possible.

MEW members get a 20% discount, up to the maximum purchase that is equal to their MEW votepower. Purchases higher than this go at normal price. MEW discount will be removed some time before ingome gold becomes freely tradable.

In my eagerness for this I even wasted some time on that weird psychodelic 2d world building website you linked the other day.
So yeah, I'm in.  As the saying goes "Shut up and take my Monero!"

If after a look through it seems suitable for a fairly worldly 14yr old, I may be getting my son an account too.

[pa]

A D V E R T I S E M E N T  -  O P P O R T U N I T Y

The early adopter phase of the Monero virtual world - Crypto Kingdom is starting NOW.

If you are interested in the game, want to fund its development, and enjoy a bit of speculation, now it is possible to buy ingame gold. Minimum at this point is for 100 XMR (about BTC2.5) but it will be listed soon and then smaller lots become possible.

MEW members get a 20% discount, up to the maximum purchase that is equal to their MEW votepower. Purchases higher than this go at normal price. MEW discount will be removed some time before ingome gold becomes freely tradable.

In my eagerness for this I even wasted some time on that weird psychodelic 2d world building website you linked the other day.
So yeah, I'm in.  As the saying goes "Shut up and take my Monero!"

If after a look through it seems suitable for a fairly worldly 14yr old, I may be getting my son an account too.

What is the procedure for buying ingame gold?

[aminorex]

I need this thread in my new replies list, so I am motivated to post a comment, hopefully not a vapid one:

In my view the most needful initiative in the XMR economy is a forwards desk.  A forwards desk would allow payment processors to hedge, which would put XMR head-and-shoulders above other crypto.  The closest thing is BTC's coin-lock.

An acquaintance of mine is an officer of EasyBitz, which is in the process of enlisting local merchants in their easy-to-use merchant payment processing channel for bitcoin.  I think it would be an easy sell that he should support XMR, if it had automated forwards.  Of course that would not suffice to inspire consumers to use XMR for their snacks and bottled water at a bodega, but it would at least enable them to do so.

I have floated proposals for a U.S. business development corporation, devoted to bootstrapping various critical infrastructure business for the XMR economy to one private equity manager, and plan to develop pitch materials for presentation to selected venture capitalists, but lately my day job has been all-consuming, so my plans have been on hiatus.  I certainly don't mind being scooped on this - If you can get there more rapidly than I, and execute well, I will support your endeavours most whole-heartedly.  If you have any substantive work in this area, let me know, and I will route your info to my network appropriately.  (These are mostly legacy capitalists, and not participants in the crypto community.)

It would be quite easy to start a margin-trading and futures market for XMR using whitebox exchange software.  But it would require a devoted and talented individual to do so properly.  My day job makes me insufficiently devoted, and it would require an exhorbitant financial inducement to convince me to leave that position, so I am not well-suited to captain any critical non-trivial enterprise.  If you are a good CEO candidate for any of the various critical infrastructure businesses, please do send me a PM.  I can promise nothing, but a good-faith effort to connect the right people to derive synergies for the XMR economy.

[bobabouey2]

This is in the form of a MEW vote / resolution, for fun, but is obviously meant for now just to be a more general discussion.  And as I noted on IRC, this is by no means meant as a criticism of anyone.  If I had deeper experience in crypto, and credibility in the community, I would try to take more leadership.  Since I don't, and since I don't believe in whining about others not taking leadership in a voluntary organization, I am simply trying to think of potential incentives - financial or intangible - that might reinvigorate MEW.

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WHEREAS, there is a general state of malaise in the crypto-currency world in general, and Monero in specific;

WHEREAS, the decline in crypto-currency valuations has also no doubt forced people to return their focus to their day jobs, other ventures and new ventures;

WHEREAS, the above may have had a material and negative impact on the amount of time and attention many knowledgeable and energetic MEW members could devote to MEW initiatives;

WHEREAS, the MEW General Fund ("GF") currently has a balance of 3,929.1 XMR, none of which is reserved for any specific initiative;

WHEREAS, there has been general discussion within the MEW relating to the pros and cons of alternative emission schedules for Monero, but such discussions have not led to concrete voting proposals and resultant debates; and

WHEREAS, there are potentially other MEW initiatives that may also be falling by the wayside due to the conditions noted above;

NOW THEREFORE IT BE RESOLVED THAT MEW CONSIDER CERTAIN POTENTIAL INCENTIVES TO ENCOURAGE MORE VIGOROUS INTRODUCTION AND DEBATE OF EMISSION AND OTHER POTENTIAL INITIATIVES:

FIRST ALTERNATIVE: the Governance section of the MEW Articles provide: "To handle practical matters, the community may elect Executives. An Executive must be a member in good standing. Upon election, the Executive is given the length of term, mission to be fulfilled, limits of authority, and a possible budget."

Accordingly, MEW could consider appointing an experienced MEW member as an Executive to research and lead the discussion, and formulate proposals that could be subject to a vote.  A budget could be considered for such an experienced Executive.  However, it is likely, given the limited MEW funds at current valuations, that financial incentives alone may not be sufficient incentive, and thus we would need someone for whom the intangible benefit of being elected by MEW as an executive for this matter would also add some incentive.

SECOND ALTERNATIVE: Given that a sufficiently experienced member may not find the financial incentives MEW could offer to be sufficient to compensate him or her for the time of leading such an effort, MEW could appoint a more junior, less wealthy MEW member to be a facilitator of the discussion.  MEW's financial resources might be more attractive to such a member.  Such member could coordinate with more senior members to solicit their views, research the market on the issues, synthesize the views and coordinate the discussion.  This approach could be combined with a honorary executive title for some of the more experienced parties who work with the more junior member.

THIRD ALTERNATIVE: A bounty system could be created whereby it was agreed that any proposal that was part of the alternatives submitted to a vote, and received more than X% of the votes, would be entitled to a XMR denominated reward from the MEW GF funds.  For example, any proposal that received more than 2 messages of support via the Monero Forums would be considered as one of the alternatives that was submitted to vote, and any of such proposals that received more than 10% of MEW voting member support would receive a Monero bounty.

FOURTH ALTERNATIVE: Anything else to reignite some fire in Monero / MEW!

FIFTH ALTERNATIVE: We continue to indulge in crypto-depression-apathy, and those of us with a predilection to the consumption of alcohol or other substances to compensate for lack of excitement continue to punish our livers / other afflicted organs.

With the warmest sentiments, and a solid buzz,

Bobabouey

[NewLiberty]

Speaking only for myself.
I don't know what you are talking about.

What malaise? What apathy?
This is an extremely exciting time.  There is a lot happening.  Constantly busy with crypto issues and projects.

[rpietila]

NL: Yes, it seems that some of the members of the MEW have started the projects they have chosen, and therefore have less time for the organizing of the MEW in general.

THIS is a REAL and BAD THING. Bobabouey2 is right.

Is it a coincidence that MEW organization is not functioning at the time when all 3 of its executives are also the 3 highest-ranking players in the Crypto Kingdom?? 

I think there is certainly a need to appoint new executives to coordinate the new projects if the old ones are concentrated on the current projects, namely developing the core and CK.

On the other hand, developing projects do not legally require voting. But voting legally requires me to initiate it, and the emission vote has taken this long time to start, since I have been busy and the voting section in monero.cc was not there. Today should be a good day to finally do it. Expectedly the long brooding time for this decision has made the decision that much more clear. The importance in this MEW decision imo is that it clearly shows unison, and is swiftly implemented. Both of these are to end the period of uncertainty, which definitely is going on, eating the motivation of the people in the community and hindering the joining of new ones.

Like said before, once majority opinion is gauged and put to practice, there is no way to go but up!

[rpietila]

MEW D&V round #2: Emission and related issues.

[dewdeded]

This still alive?