[2014-09-18] Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin”

[kodtycoon]

You're acting as if my age would be a factor in determining the validity of my arguments against NxT. Sorry, but logical arguments are not dependent upon the age of the arguer unless that is included as part of the premises or conclusion.

Your argument is poorly formed from an intellectual standpoint, hence the question about your age. I already explained to you why NXT isn't centralized and gave you a chance to rebut which you ignored. You just bulldozed over the discussion by continuing to claim that NXT is "100% centralized" when it clearly is not, nor has it been since launch.

NXT is traded on the freemarket just like bitcoin. I really don't see why this is so hard to understand. I think you can understand it, you are just choosing not to because protecting your ego is more important to you than acknowledging reality.

What you have with NxT is a case where all of it is decentralized except for one component, the development process

ok.. so you say all of nxt is totally decentralized except the development process.. can you elaborate on exactly how that is the case? please explain exactly what you mean by that line.

the way i see it is yes the dev team is anonymous, big whoop so was satoshi. the software gets released and is open source for anyone to check. aslong as the software is sound and free of any malicious code, what is the problem? you cant say it is closed to other developers because i have seen developers put forward ideas and then be allowed write the code for integration have it reviewed tested and finally integrated. i dont think this could be any more decentralized. please explain clearly what you mean by this statement because it sounds like your pulling FUD out your ass.

and please back up your claims with proof. or else it can only be taken as FUD.

Your own words prove you wrong. Check the bolded text. Whoever gets to decide who is allowed to write code is a centralized checkpoint. That is not decentralized at all, no matter who is writing the code, so long as a centralized entity (aka the NxT development team) has the final say in what does or doesn't get added.

As for the part about decentralizing mining and making it more transparent, the guys in this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdSF19foO8E&t=24m36s) don't seem to understand what P2Pool means for bitcoin mining. It decentralizes mining and makes pools obsolete. Fans of PoS completely skip over this solution.

PoS = Disincentive of Use + decentralized mining
PoW + P2Pool = Incentive of Use + decentralized mining

One of those two is far better than the other.

oh so i can just go and add code to the bitcoin protocol yes? oh no wait... only jeff.g and his buddies can do that... oooohhh bitcoin is centralized maaaan you better sell now.

you would have to be mad to allow anyone to go and add code to the nxt software.. god knows who would come along and stick in malicious code and screw everything up. dont be so stupid.

eemm.. how the hell did you come to the conclusion that PoS = disincentive of use? if anything its the opposite.

also.. you never answered my question.. il quote it again seeing as you have conveniently missed it.

can you explain exactly how or who has been "scammed" out of money? users go to an exchange to buy nxt, they buy nxt, they get nxt, they trade it and do as they wish with it. and they get exactly what they want. at what point did someone get scammed? because all i see is users buying an asset at a price they wish to pay and doing as they wish with it and at no point has anyone been manipulated or deceived in doing so. so please.. give your definition of a scam and then apply that definition to nxt and show me your results that brought you to the conclusion that someone has been "scammed" by this "scam" called nxt?

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[cbeast]

You mention certain parts of NxT that are decentralized. What you fail to mention are the parts of it that are 100% centralized. As long as any single component of a currency is 100% centralized, then the entire currency is centralized.

So basically when bitcoin core gets updated by a human its decentralized but when NXT gets updated by a human its centralized. Makes no sense, yet you keep repeating it as if it did...

Oh, I just figured out what the problem is. You don't know what "centralization" means.

Bitcoin core is updated through the scientific method of peer review. Anyone can update their own Bitcoin, but if you want something that is trustworthy, then you trust people that have presented the best work as judged by merit.

It would be good to see many more altcoins using github or some other publishing system in this way.

[nutildah]

also.. you never answered my question.. il quote it again seeing as you have conveniently missed it.

He's a fudder in the true sense of the term.

[nutildah]

Bitcoin core is updated through the scientific method of peer review.

By a human being, correct? A human being, susceptible to subconscious bias and error.

It would be good to see many more altcoins using github or some other publishing system in this way.

Many, if not most, do already.

[kodtycoon]

all this discussion of nxt is brilliant advertising.. i wonder is this the reason the price is rising.. i hope more of these threads pop up.. jeff.g and all the rest of the fudsters are doing great work. keep it up guys!

[CoinMode]

You mention certain parts of NxT that are decentralized. What you fail to mention are the parts of it that are 100% centralized. As long as any single component of a currency is 100% centralized, then the entire currency is centralized.

So basically when bitcoin core gets updated by a human its decentralized but when NXT gets updated by a human its centralized. Makes no sense, yet you keep repeating it as if it did...

Oh, I just figured out what the problem is. You don't know what "centralization" means.

Bitcoin Core gets updated through a process of consensus in which every person in the world has an equal opportunity to take part. NxT does not get updated in a decentralized manner. If a bad actor were to compile Bitcoin Core with malicious code hidden in it, then every person in the world could reject it and the bad actor. This is not possible with NxT, as the development team has the absolute final say with every single update. You just said that is how it works. I can't keep running in circles with you forever.

As for NxT being a scam, they have tricked you into thinking that it is decentralized like bitcoin. That is a lie, and thus you are getting scammed. They will get corrupted due this fault and fail because of it. It also makes no difference if humans are writing the code. Bitcoin is a fully decentralized network of humans writing the code and NxT is not.

[cbeast]

Bitcoin core is updated through the scientific method of peer review.

By a human being, correct? A human being, susceptible to subconscious bias and error.

The scientific method is a pretty good system. Google it.

[kodtycoon]

You mention certain parts of NxT that are decentralized. What you fail to mention are the parts of it that are 100% centralized. As long as any single component of a currency is 100% centralized, then the entire currency is centralized.

So basically when bitcoin core gets updated by a human its decentralized but when NXT gets updated by a human its centralized. Makes no sense, yet you keep repeating it as if it did...

Oh, I just figured out what the problem is. You don't know what "centralization" means.

Bitcoin Core gets updated through a process of consensus in which every person in the world has an equal opportunity to take part. NxT does not get updated in a decentralized manner. If a bad actor were to compile Bitcoin Core with malicious code hidden in it, then every person in the world could reject it and the bad actor. This is not possible with NxT, as the development team has the absolute final say with every single update. You just said that is how it works. I can't keep running in circles with you forever.

As for NxT being a scam, they have tricked you into thinking that it is decentralized like bitcoin. That is a lie, and thus you are getting scammed. They will get corrupted due this fault and fail because of it. It also makes no difference if humans are writing the code. Bitcoin is a fully decentralized network of humans writing the code and NxT is not.

anyone can make a change to the core of nxt and release their version no different to bitcoin. it is down to the users to decide which version they would prefer to use and thus the users come to consensus on which update to use. this is in no ways different to how bitcoin is done.

i can say the same about bitcoin and the oligarch miners. there are only a handful of major miners in control of the bitcoin network - therefore it is centralized.. see how easy that was. your talking shite and you know it.

but we are making progress.. we have whittled it down to "nxt IS decentralized" except for the ONLY part being the "centralized development process".. a few pages back it was centralized for different reasons as far as i can remember and the development process wasnt mentioned. so not only does the fud get crappier, it also contradicts what was said a few pages back. anyway, who "reviews" the code before changes are made to bitcoin? iv certainly never seen a tweet(seeing as jeff is so fond of tweets lately) with a link to code asking if the code is good.. so where does the code get "peer reviewed" and by who?? if it is jeffs buddies behind closed doors then that is still centralized according to your theory. all i ever see is an announcement by jeff when a change has been made. no mention of what WILL be done or who it will be reviewed by.

ok you better keep it coming cos im getting bored now.. i want fresh fud..throw it at me.. comon im ready for ya!

[nutildah]

ok you better keep it coming cos im getting bored now.. i want fresh fud..throw it at me.. comon im ready for ya!

LOL thanks man. I'm tapping out, you're doing a good enough job without me.

[cbeast]

anyone can make a change to the core of nxt and release their version no different to bitcoin. it is down to the users to decide which version they would prefer to use and thus the users come to consensus on which update to use. this is in no ways different to how bitcoin is done.

This is a good thing. The centralized nature of NXT will make it a good candidate as local fiat currency or corporate gift certificates.

[kodtycoon]

The scientific method is a pretty good system. Google it.

As a neuroscience graduate student I am well aware of this. But who implements the scientific method? Is it a robot, a cyborg, or a human?

ding ding ding... knock out! lol

@above post.. ya that was a scare tactic.. im wrecked so im going to sleep i will resume the FUD war in the morning..

@FUDsters.. il give you time to reload your FUD cannons and patch your wounds.. go and eat, sleep, wank off to granny porn and do what ever else you do to relax and we will continue the battle in the morning.. i expect class A FUD to be plastered all over this thread by the morning.. dont let me down soldiers.. i didnt come here to make daisy chains so come packing or dont come at all

peace <3 xXx

[cbeast]

The scientific method is a pretty good system. Google it.

As a neuroscience graduate student I am well aware of this. But who implements the scientific method? Is it a robot, a cyborg, or a human? Yes that's a rhetorical question. I've tapped out so I will not be responding.

Sleep is yet another weakness of mere humans. That is why we work together as a collective. We've developed pretty good workarounds for our weaknesses.

[CoinMode]

The scientific method is a pretty good system. Google it.

As a neuroscience graduate student I am well aware of this. But who implements the scientific method? Is it a robot, a cyborg, or a human?

ding ding ding... knock out! lol

@above post.. ya that was a scare tactic.. im wrecked so im going to sleep i will resume the FUD war in the morning..

@FUDsters.. il give you time to reload your FUD cannons and patch your wounds.. go and eat, sleep, wank off to granny porn and do what ever else you do to relax and we will continue the battle in the morning.. i expect class A FUD to be plastered all over this thread by the morning.. dont let me down soldiers.. i didnt come here to make daisy chains so come packing or dont come at all

peace <3 xXx

Your continual use of logical fallacies will ensure that people not smart enough to recognize them will flow towards NxT. Never did I, nor anybody else, say that the only part of NxT that is centralized is the development process. It was simply one example, the only one necessary to complete my argument about how it signals that the entirety of NxT is centralized because of that choke-point, one which does not exist in bitcoin. Whether you like it or not, bitcoin mining is becoming more decentralized as people figure out how to employ P2Pool in their hardware.

NxT supporters can shout insults and question people's age, but they cannot convince any intelligent person that NxT is decentralized. Putting your faith in somebody's claim about their education is yet another logical fallacy. The only FUD that needs to be cleaned up here is coming from your side. Even if I was Satoshi himself, that would not necessarily mean that I know more about bitcoin than somebody else.

I'm glad you are fighting for NxT. People like you are secretly a great ally to bitcoiners.

[devphp]

On the contrary, it's hard to convince people that Bitcoin is decentralized now after Ghash owned 51%-53% of its hashrate back in June, and probably continues to own half or more of its hashrate now disguised at other mining addresses, or do you think they switched off part of their equipment and decided they should lose on their investment? Think again.

[arnuschky]

Bitcoin core is updated through the scientific method of peer review.

By a human being, correct? A human being, susceptible to subconscious bias and error.

The scientific method is a pretty good system. Google it.

Actually, it's the only one that we've got that works. 

[cbeast]

On the contrary, it's hard to convince people that Bitcoin is decentralized now after Ghash owned 51%-53% of its hashrate back in June, and probably continues to own half or more of its hashrate now disguised at other mining addresses, or do you think they switched off part of their equipment and decided they should lose on their investment? Think again.

You don't seem to understand how mining pools operate. It's possible the 51% was a statistical artifact. You also seem to think that people have expensive capital intentionally sitting idle. That may work for paper investments, but Bitcoiners work for a living. If GHash.io is indeed a super miner, then they deserve the profits they make while the rest of the world drools over their hyperinflating paper notes. Hashrate is growing exponentially. Bitcoin is becoming competitive and you ain't seen nothing yet.

[arnuschky]

The entire premise behind PoS is false. PoW is used to solve the Byzantine Generals problem. The argument that checkpoints are required is false. They are a safety precaution while Bitcoin is young and vulnerable. The PoS folks go on to say that Bitcoin is centralized because a cabal of elite developers choose when to create a checkpoint. These are strawman arguments.

This. PoS doesn't "achieve consensus", simple as that. It's imposed by the devs fixing artificially a certain version of the blockchain as the correct one (these checkpoints). Note that this is a completely different concept than the checkpointing used in bitcoin.

You remove checkpointing from bitcoin, and it will still work.
You remove checkpointing from PoS, and it will be crashed.

[devphp]

The entire premise behind PoS is false. PoW is used to solve the Byzantine Generals problem. The argument that checkpoints are required is false. They are a safety precaution while Bitcoin is young and vulnerable. The PoS folks go on to say that Bitcoin is centralized because a cabal of elite developers choose when to create a checkpoint. These are strawman arguments.

This. PoS doesn't "achieve consensus", simple as that. It's imposed by the devs fixing artificially a certain version of the blockchain as the correct one (these checkpoints). Note that this is a completely different concept than the checkpointing used in bitcoin.

You remove checkpointing from bitcoin, and it will still work.
You remove checkpointing from PoS, and it will be crashed.

NXT in its bootstrapping phase (which is now) uses rolling automatic checkpoints, 720 blocks deep. Meaning everything older than 720 blocks is set in stone and can't be reversed. Is that what you call artificial fixing? Once the bootstrapping phase is completed and Transparent Forging is implemented in a few months, the window will shorten from 720 to 10 blocks.

[habraken]

On the contrary, it's hard to convince people that Bitcoin is decentralized now after Ghash owned 51%-53% of its hashrate back in June, and probably continues to own half or more of its hashrate now disguised at other mining addresses, or do you think they switched off part of their equipment and decided they should lose on their investment? Think again.

You don't seem to understand how mining pools operate. It's possible the 51% was a statistical artifact. You also seem to think that people have expensive capital intentionally sitting idle. That may work for paper investments, but Bitcoiners work for a living. If GHash.io is indeed a super miner, then they deserve the profits they make while the rest of the world drools over their hyperinflating paper notes. Hashrate is growing exponentially. Bitcoin is becoming competitive and you ain't seen nothing yet.

It's not about 'deserving the profits'. It's about the effects and possible risks of centralization.

And, if you want to make that point, about wasting energy and resources in a competition who can burn the most energy. Which also creates a fiat leak btw: miners háve to sell coins to pay the bills.

[cbeast]

On the contrary, it's hard to convince people that Bitcoin is decentralized now after Ghash owned 51%-53% of its hashrate back in June, and probably continues to own half or more of its hashrate now disguised at other mining addresses, or do you think they switched off part of their equipment and decided they should lose on their investment? Think again.

You don't seem to understand how mining pools operate. It's possible the 51% was a statistical artifact. You also seem to think that people have expensive capital intentionally sitting idle. That may work for paper investments, but Bitcoiners work for a living. If GHash.io is indeed a super miner, then they deserve the profits they make while the rest of the world drools over their hyperinflating paper notes. Hashrate is growing exponentially. Bitcoin is becoming competitive and you ain't seen nothing yet.

It's not about 'deserving the profits'. It's about the effects and possible risks of centralization.

And, if you want to make that point, about wasting energy and resources in a competition who can burn the most energy. Which also creates a fiat leak btw: miners háve to sell coins to pay the bills.

Bitcoin is decentralized. Satoshi wrote about the incentive to attack vs. incentive to profit. Nobody has shown a way to make a 51% attack that would have any chance at profitability. All trolls do is create FUD. Even if a trillionaire decided he had so many extra billions laying around he wanted to just burn, he could buy the gear to make a 51% attack. That would be an eye opening event indeed about how important Bitcoin must be. He would be able to buy bitcoins and then double spend them. If he bought a lot of bitcoins, he would drive up the price a lot. If he wanted to double spend he would have to buy something. Anyone willing to sell something worth millions of dollars without identification is asking for trouble. After he defrauded them, they could prosecute him. If he only wanted to prove a point that Bitcoin can be 51% attacked, that would be the most expensive hurr durr in history.