[2014-09-18] Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin”

[Sukrim]

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

[1714611204]

1714611204

[superresistant]

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

The problem is that people use words that have different/opposite definitions.

In the case of Nxt, if you call it a scam, define scam first.

[devphp]

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

The thing is those who call NXT a scam don't know how to discuss, because they haven't read the whitepaper. And when someone asks them to prove their point, having no technical knowledge on how things operate, they repeat 'scam, scam' or roll around the old Nothing-at-stake argument which is not even relevant for NXT implementation of PoS, as this term was coined for Peercoin's PoS, which is a completely different PoS algo. They just bunch together all different implementations of PoS and call it scam without giving it any thought, you can't even come close to discussing reasons with these people

[Sukrim]

Again, here are Jeff's arguments:

It is marketed like a scammy penny stock.

Anon early super large stakeholders + Proof-Of-Stake == the big guys run the table, if they choose. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf  The central bankers are in place from Day One unless they are super-virtuous and give tons away “fairly.”

Anonymous developers

Closed developing process.  Source is periodically handed down from the ivory tower to the masses.

Certain notable personages (& key stakeholders) that dodge, dodge, dodge, when an obvious attack vector — mitigated in other crypto-finance projects by known techniques — is highlighted.

Active resistance to making it easier to independently reproduce the software

Technical criticism is routinely met with bizarre behavior (notably from come-from-beyond)

Attacking critics, rather than responding to criticism.

Several security incidents that smell like inside jobs.

Except for the early stakeholders + PoS thingie, most of them are NOT towards the technology but more the developers or community.

[devphp]

Exactly, most of them have nothing to do with technology. If it has nothng to do with technology, then it's just a personal dislike for how things look, personal = subjective. There are thousands of users who obviously like how things look and don't have a problem with all those listed issues. It would be more natural for Jeff to argue on the basis of technical merits or faults, as he is also a software engineer.

[arnuschky]

Lots of misinformation here.  NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

[toknormal]

The more interesting part is that people get upset because NXT is called a scam with a list of reasons, yet people only discuss if it should be called scam or not, not if the reasons are correct or not.

Just because NxT might make a few people a lot of money doesn't make it a scam.

The market will distribute it. The "scam" accusation has long been debunked - by the market no less.

It's a good coin with one of the strongest, most active and creative followings in the entire cryptocurrency economy and it ain't going away anytime soon.

All of these things are relative anyway - there isn't one single criticism that the crypto community have made of NxT that the wider world wouldn't justifiably make of crypto in general. "Centralised", "all owned by a few big holders", "overvalued"....the entire market fits this bill so everyone should just stfu and stop being so hypocritical because the mud slinging's coming to a coin near you soon.

[superresistant]

Lots of misinformation here.  NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

Please, if you never heard about Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake, use google.
It is quite long to explain.

[ShroomsKit_Disgrace]

Again, here are Jeff's arguments:

It is marketed like a scammy penny stock.

Anon early super large stakeholders + Proof-Of-Stake == the big guys run the table, if they choose. https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf  The central bankers are in place from Day One unless they are super-virtuous and give tons away “fairly.”

Anonymous developers

Closed developing process.  Source is periodically handed down from the ivory tower to the masses.

Certain notable personages (& key stakeholders) that dodge, dodge, dodge, when an obvious attack vector — mitigated in other crypto-finance projects by known techniques — is highlighted.

Active resistance to making it easier to independently reproduce the software

Technical criticism is routinely met with bizarre behavior (notably from come-from-beyond)

Attacking critics, rather than responding to criticism.

Several security incidents that smell like inside jobs.

Except for the early stakeholders + PoS thingie, most of them are NOT towards the technology but more the developers or community.

Do I have to repost here this video?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3r8areoxqag

He answers all these question quite well in my opinion.

[Sukrim]

Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

[arnuschky]

Lots of misinformation here.  NXT is not a clone of Bitcoin, it was written from scratch using java + javascript and has almost nothing in common with Bitcoin aside from the general concept of using a blockchain.

How is this blockchain secured, if not by mining? (honest question)

Please, if you never heard about Proof-of-Work and Proof-of-Stake, use google.
It is quite long to explain.

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

[devphp]

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

PoS.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=787100.msg8928459#msg8928459

[arnuschky]

Phrased my question wrong, sorry.
If NXT is not using PoW, do they use PoS or something else?

PoS.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=787100.msg8928459#msg8928459

Thanks. I just looked it up as well. PoS, so they fail:

It is not well-advertised, but in fact there has never been an example of a cryptocur-
rency achieving distributed consensus by proof-of-stake. The prototypical proof-of-stake currency,
Peercoin, depends on developer signatures to determine block validity: that is, its consensus is not
distributed. The same fate has befallen other nominally-PoS currencies such as Blackcoin.

From https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

It even mentions NXT:

In its initial incarnation, NXT was susceptible to a trivial stake-grinding attack (to be described below)
and could not achieve any consensus. Since becoming closed-source while spamming technically-
illiterate claims at popular conferences, it has fallen out of scope of this document.

[devphp]

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now
This document is irrelevant.

[arnuschky]

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now
This document is irrelevant.

I doubt it: It's arguments haven't been refuted, as far as I can tell.
See also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591

[superresistant]

https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf

PoS implementation of NXT is a completely different algo than the PoS implementation of Blackcoin or Peercoin that this document refers to.
NXT is open-source and has been achieving distributed consensus for 10 months now
This document is irrelevant.

I doubt it: It's arguments haven't been refuted, as far as I can tell.
See also https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591

I confirm that the PoS of Nxt is unique and totally different from Blackcoin which is also totally different from Peercoin.

[nutildah]

Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

Ergo NXT is bad, right?

The BTC community's jealousy of NXT grows more palpable by the day.

[Sukrim]

Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

Ergo NXT is bad, right?

No.

Ergo I'll continue to watch from the sidelines and use my time better than watch someone whispering into a MacBook for half an hour. I don't use NXT and have my reasons why, but I don't consider it "bad" or a "scam" for that matter.

[kodtycoon]

Watching a 25 minute video instead of reading a blog post in 3 minutes? Sorry, this is the wrong medium. Feel free to post a transcript...

Also the audio is waaay down on that video, but that's a rather easy fix.

Ergo NXT is bad, right?

No.

Ergo I'll continue to watch from the sidelines and use my time better than watch someone whispering into a MacBook for half an hour. I don't use NXT and have my reasons why, but I don't consider it "bad" or a "scam" for that matter.

whats your reasons?

[mczarnek]

any non mineble currency is like fiat , it can be inflated forever and thats the problem.

I think you are thinking about Peercoin and most other POS implementations which pay forgers via a steady inflation rate.. with Nxt the only thing powering the network is transaction fees.  Meaning that the currency is capped and there will never be another Nxt created.. though they can be destroyed.  So no, Nxt is not inflationary.