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Author Topic: [2014-09-18] Bitcoin Core Developer Jeff Garzik Believes NXT is a “Scamcoin”  (Read 9693 times)
cbeast
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September 25, 2014, 02:37:27 AM
 #61

Despite good intentions , humans can NOT be trusted , they simpley lack control over its own primal emotions.
they simply cant , so its no option to keep humans in a trust position.
this makes NXT no diffrent then the dollar.
and bitcoin diffrent.
Bitcoin does not need trust.


how does nxt put trust in people? Huh
The initial IPO had ten people with 50% of the stake. There is no way to prove that those ten people weren't in fact one person, nor that one person has not acquired more than 50% already. They can then hold their position forever. It's like a priesthood. You must have faith that your authority figures will be honest. NXT's version of PoS allocates the block generation by active stake. Someone with a majority of active stake has the option to attack the network surreptitiously. I doubt they would overtly attack the network because it would devalue the currency, but they would always have plausible deniability if they sporadically attack.

I can't prove that this has happened and nobody can prove that it didn't already or won't happen. You just have to trust people that they won't be greedy enough to try this.

exactly you cant prove anything.. LOL

if you held 50% or 15m+ dollars of a currency, would you screw up the network and cause the value of your holdings to plummet?

what i really love about your arguments, is even if they are totally valid arguments, your going to have a hard time putting the same fight with even remotely similar arguments against nem which i have no doubt in a few weeks you will try, and then fail lol perhaps you should read up on NEM for a bit and prepare your fud in advance Wink
That's why I don't even need to bother reading about NEM. There will always be another PoS. PoS doesn't need an expensive infrastructure, just a marketing gimmick. You say I have valid arguments, yet still call it FUD. Interesting. In fact, I am excited about the possibility of PoS, it's just that none of them are any good yet.

you are right in saying nxt distribution is not very good, but you push it too far, and then it becomes fud.

ok now we are making progress(bolded part)

this is why i brought up nem.. its not PoS. its PoI. proof of importance. in nem your level of importance to the network is what decides your "forging power". it is partly based on how many coins you have but mostly how important you are to the network ie. if you distribute your coins via tx fees or any other transactions to other nodes with high importance then you gain importance. i you hoard, it drops(not by much but enough to deter hoarding). its not about how many transactions you do, but with whom you do transactions. if you make a transaction with a very high fee, your importance will rise a little i think even though the number of coins you have has gone down. people have been trying to break PoI for months with out any luck.

this gives even small holders the opportunity to have a high importance regardless of their lack of coins. it will help increase the already large network effect created by 3000 original stake holders who got 1 million each, the vast majority being unique users/veteran accounts. distribution is pretty much the opposite of nxt. the largest stake holder in nem isnt even 1%. it will have all the features that nxt has and probably more. remote forging(forge with coins in cold storage) is a planned feature for beta (currently in alpha) as well as time synchronization between nodes(security feature). multisig could possibly be a feature ready for beta too but im not sure on that one. also it doesnt use brain wallets. it uses a local wallet but i think it could be a little different than regular bitcoin like local wallets. but for the most part i think its the same thing.

Your importance is based on a high amount coins you have plus how many transaction fees you send to others with a high amount of coins. It sounds like you can build your own importance by sending coins and fees to yourself.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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September 25, 2014, 03:30:46 AM
 #62

All these altcoins are fun to discuss. These are games without frontiers. People dress them up in silly costumes and shout from the treetops. People claiming they have invented something new under the sun. It is hilarious.  All Bitcoin did was solve the Byzantine General's problem using a blockchain. Bitcoin uses Proof of Work because work is competitive. It's not perfect, but who in their right mind can expect to make something perfect?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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September 25, 2014, 05:54:47 AM
 #63

If certain amount of money can buy certain amount of goods/services, then they should all be produced by equal amount of work, this is the principle for honest money

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September 25, 2014, 06:35:51 AM
 #64

If certain amount of money can buy certain amount of goods/services, then they should all be produced by equal amount of work, this is the principle for honest money

There is no thing as "honest money" in this world.
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September 25, 2014, 07:24:18 AM
 #65


There is no thing as "honest money" in this world.

Hmm.. True.. I wanted to disagree with you but I can't.

I personally like NXT and I think it has potential. Some of its original innovations were pretty spot on and widely copied.

So long as the NXT team can continue to deliver I think the only thing stopping them from succeeding is being able to reach a more widestream audience.. A marketing audience should include new arenas of potential users instead of the same business- and crypto-oriented BTC, which now has countless decentralization, blockchain-based platforms to choose from..

My one gripe with the distribution and POS is that it encourages hoarding, which doesn't really make sense for a coin that should still be trying to distribute itself as widely as possible... if only to fight the relentless criticism.

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September 25, 2014, 07:26:56 AM
 #66

If certain amount of money can buy certain amount of goods/services, then they should all be produced by equal amount of work, this is the principle for honest money

There is no thing as "honest money" in this world.

Yes there is, and it is called gold. It hasn't been used as a currency in a long time, but gold is literally a form of money, as is bitcoin. They are also both perfectly honest forms of money, in that no central authority is allowed to dictate their value or supply. With that said, NxT does not fall into the category of honest money due to a central pool of investors who have complete control over it.

*woof woof*
What's that you say little shibe?
*woof woof woof*
The scamcoin known as NxT just got passed by DOGE?
*woof*
Wow! Thanks for letting us know and pointing out the NxT is losing to a jokecoin. Good girl...have a biscuit.
*nom nom nom*

source: chart below

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September 25, 2014, 07:28:54 AM
 #67

My one gripe with the distribution and POS is that it encourages hoarding, which doesn't really make sense for a coin that should still be trying to distribute itself as widely as possible... if only to fight the relentless criticism.

Not lately though. Stakeholders are starting to chip in their coins to buy IPO shares on the asset exchange, that's an important part of the distribution process. I don't think it's valid to expect a very good distribution after only 10 months of running. Bitcoin has run for 5+ years and its distribution is far from good and there is no reason to expect it will get any better.
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September 25, 2014, 07:33:39 AM
 #68

so many retards here in the world Sad

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September 25, 2014, 07:35:38 AM
 #69

This, I'm sick of reading it being called "coins" when its all 100% premined tokens. Its an insult to the Bitcoin technology.

I am sick of reading someone calling NXT "pre-mined", when it can't be mined in the first place Smiley oh, and you're right, they are not coins, they are so much more, depends on which function of theirs you imply.
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September 25, 2014, 07:41:55 AM
 #70

This, I'm sick of reading it being called "coins" when its all 100% premined tokens. Its an insult to the Bitcoin technology.

I am sick of reading someone calling NXT "pre-mined", when it can't be mined in the first place Smiley oh, and you're right, they are not coins, they are so much more, depends on which function of theirs you imply.
Thank you, Captain Obvious, for pointing out that you don't actually use picks and shovels for releasing tokens and verifying transactions.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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September 25, 2014, 07:42:52 AM
 #71

NXT is not, and never was a 'coin'. Tis a fine example how lazy and ignorant peeps like Coinmode and Garzik really are.
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September 25, 2014, 07:45:35 AM
 #72

NXT is not, and never was a 'coin'. Tis a fine example how lazy and ignorant peeps like Coinmode and Garzik really are.
According to NXTCRYPTO.org it is a cryptocurrency. The term 'coin' is easier. FYI.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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September 25, 2014, 07:50:36 AM
 #73

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.
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September 25, 2014, 08:02:36 AM
 #74

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.
Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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September 25, 2014, 08:06:08 AM
 #75

If certain amount of money can buy certain amount of goods/services, then they should all be produced by equal amount of work, this is the principle for honest money
There is no thing as "honest money" in this world.
Yes there is, and it is called gold.

LMAO

It hasn't been used as a currency in a long time, but gold is literally a form of money, as is bitcoin. They are also both perfectly honest forms of money, in that no central authority is allowed to dictate their value or supply.

Dude, don't talk about things you don't know.

Here's my bag so you don't ask : Bitcoin, tenX, iexec, byteball and pepecash
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September 25, 2014, 08:06:22 AM
 #76

Despite good intentions , humans can NOT be trusted , they simpley lack control over its own primal emotions.
they simply cant , so its no option to keep humans in a trust position.
this makes NXT no diffrent then the dollar.
and bitcoin diffrent.
Bitcoin does not need trust.


how does nxt put trust in people? Huh
The initial IPO had ten people with 50% of the stake. There is no way to prove that those ten people weren't in fact one person, nor that one person has not acquired more than 50% already. They can then hold their position forever. It's like a priesthood. You must have faith that your authority figures will be honest. NXT's version of PoS allocates the block generation by active stake. Someone with a majority of active stake has the option to attack the network surreptitiously. I doubt they would overtly attack the network because it would devalue the currency, but they would always have plausible deniability if they sporadically attack.

I can't prove that this has happened and nobody can prove that it didn't already or won't happen. You just have to trust people that they won't be greedy enough to try this.

exactly you cant prove anything.. LOL

if you held 50% or 15m+ dollars of a currency, would you screw up the network and cause the value of your holdings to plummet?

what i really love about your arguments, is even if they are totally valid arguments, your going to have a hard time putting the same fight with even remotely similar arguments against nem which i have no doubt in a few weeks you will try, and then fail lol perhaps you should read up on NEM for a bit and prepare your fud in advance Wink
That's why I don't even need to bother reading about NEM. There will always be another PoS. PoS doesn't need an expensive infrastructure, just a marketing gimmick. You say I have valid arguments, yet still call it FUD. Interesting. In fact, I am excited about the possibility of PoS, it's just that none of them are any good yet.

you are right in saying nxt distribution is not very good, but you push it too far, and then it becomes fud.

ok now we are making progress(bolded part)

this is why i brought up nem.. its not PoS. its PoI. proof of importance. in nem your level of importance to the network is what decides your "forging power". it is partly based on how many coins you have but mostly how important you are to the network ie. if you distribute your coins via tx fees or any other transactions to other nodes with high importance then you gain importance. i you hoard, it drops(not by much but enough to deter hoarding). its not about how many transactions you do, but with whom you do transactions. if you make a transaction with a very high fee, your importance will rise a little i think even though the number of coins you have has gone down. people have been trying to break PoI for months with out any luck.

this gives even small holders the opportunity to have a high importance regardless of their lack of coins. it will help increase the already large network effect created by 3000 original stake holders who got 1 million each, the vast majority being unique users/veteran accounts. distribution is pretty much the opposite of nxt. the largest stake holder in nem isnt even 1%. it will have all the features that nxt has and probably more. remote forging(forge with coins in cold storage) is a planned feature for beta (currently in alpha) as well as time synchronization between nodes(security feature). multisig could possibly be a feature ready for beta too but im not sure on that one. also it doesnt use brain wallets. it uses a local wallet but i think it could be a little different than regular bitcoin like local wallets. but for the most part i think its the same thing.

Your importance is based on a high amount coins you have plus how many transaction fees you send to others with a high amount of coins. It sounds like you can build your own importance by sending coins and fees to yourself.
no cheating the system like that doesn't work.. Loads have tried and failed. And it not how many you do nor the size but who you do txs with. Il post the white paper when it's released

||▄▄▀▀▀▀▄            ▄▀▀▀▀▄▄
█▀▀▄   ▀▀▄      ▄▀▀   ▄███
█   █▀▄   ▀▀▄▄▀▀   ▄██████
█   █  ▀▀▄      ▄█████████
█   █     ▀▀▄▄██████▀▀████
█   █        ████▀  ▄▄████
█   █        █▀  ▄▄███████
█   █         ▄▄████▀▀████
█    ▀▄      ████▀  ▄▄████
 ▀▀▄   ▀▀▄   █▀  ▄█████▀▀
    ▀▀▄   ▀▀▄▄▄█████▀▀
       ▀▀▄   ████▀▀
          ▀▀▄█▀▀
▄▄▀▀▀▀▄            ▄▀▀▀▀▄▄
█▀▀▄   ▀▀▄      ▄▀▀   ▄███
█   █▀▄   ▀▀▄▄▀▀   ▄██████
█   █  ▀▀▄      ▄█████████
█   █     ▀▀▄▄██████▀▀████
█   █        ████▀  ▄▄████
█   █        █▀  ▄▄███████
█   █         ▄▄████▀▀████
█    ▀▄      ████▀  ▄▄████
 ▀▀▄   ▀▀▄   █▀  ▄█████▀▀
    ▀▀▄   ▀▀▄▄▄█████▀▀
       ▀▀▄   ████▀▀
          ▀▀▄█▀▀
[]|
devphp
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September 25, 2014, 08:09:28 AM
 #77

Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.

Put it in your sig Smiley
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September 25, 2014, 08:09:53 AM
 #78

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.
Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.
If this is what we are now discussing......the argument that NXT is a 'scamcoin' has been conclusively lost.

Out.
cbeast
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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September 25, 2014, 08:10:03 AM
 #79

Despite good intentions , humans can NOT be trusted , they simpley lack control over its own primal emotions.
they simply cant , so its no option to keep humans in a trust position.
this makes NXT no diffrent then the dollar.
and bitcoin diffrent.
Bitcoin does not need trust.


how does nxt put trust in people? Huh
The initial IPO had ten people with 50% of the stake. There is no way to prove that those ten people weren't in fact one person, nor that one person has not acquired more than 50% already. They can then hold their position forever. It's like a priesthood. You must have faith that your authority figures will be honest. NXT's version of PoS allocates the block generation by active stake. Someone with a majority of active stake has the option to attack the network surreptitiously. I doubt they would overtly attack the network because it would devalue the currency, but they would always have plausible deniability if they sporadically attack.

I can't prove that this has happened and nobody can prove that it didn't already or won't happen. You just have to trust people that they won't be greedy enough to try this.

exactly you cant prove anything.. LOL

if you held 50% or 15m+ dollars of a currency, would you screw up the network and cause the value of your holdings to plummet?

what i really love about your arguments, is even if they are totally valid arguments, your going to have a hard time putting the same fight with even remotely similar arguments against nem which i have no doubt in a few weeks you will try, and then fail lol perhaps you should read up on NEM for a bit and prepare your fud in advance Wink
That's why I don't even need to bother reading about NEM. There will always be another PoS. PoS doesn't need an expensive infrastructure, just a marketing gimmick. You say I have valid arguments, yet still call it FUD. Interesting. In fact, I am excited about the possibility of PoS, it's just that none of them are any good yet.

you are right in saying nxt distribution is not very good, but you push it too far, and then it becomes fud.

ok now we are making progress(bolded part)

this is why i brought up nem.. its not PoS. its PoI. proof of importance. in nem your level of importance to the network is what decides your "forging power". it is partly based on how many coins you have but mostly how important you are to the network ie. if you distribute your coins via tx fees or any other transactions to other nodes with high importance then you gain importance. i you hoard, it drops(not by much but enough to deter hoarding). its not about how many transactions you do, but with whom you do transactions. if you make a transaction with a very high fee, your importance will rise a little i think even though the number of coins you have has gone down. people have been trying to break PoI for months with out any luck.

this gives even small holders the opportunity to have a high importance regardless of their lack of coins. it will help increase the already large network effect created by 3000 original stake holders who got 1 million each, the vast majority being unique users/veteran accounts. distribution is pretty much the opposite of nxt. the largest stake holder in nem isnt even 1%. it will have all the features that nxt has and probably more. remote forging(forge with coins in cold storage) is a planned feature for beta (currently in alpha) as well as time synchronization between nodes(security feature). multisig could possibly be a feature ready for beta too but im not sure on that one. also it doesnt use brain wallets. it uses a local wallet but i think it could be a little different than regular bitcoin like local wallets. but for the most part i think its the same thing.

Your importance is based on a high amount coins you have plus how many transaction fees you send to others with a high amount of coins. It sounds like you can build your own importance by sending coins and fees to yourself.
no cheating the system like that doesn't work.. Loads have tried and failed. And it not how many you do nor the size but who you do txs with. Il post the white paper when it's released
I'm sure it will be "The Perfect Game." It will be interesting to see how you apply game theory. The world's casinos are waiting with bated breath.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
cbeast
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September 25, 2014, 08:13:01 AM
 #80

Cryptocurrency is anything that uses encryption techniques and can transfer value and pay for goods and services like any other form of money. If you add other functions on top of that, it stays a cryptocurrency + other functions.
Nice answer. NXT is a "cryptocurrency + other functions." Catchy.
If this is what we are now discussing......the argument that NXT is a 'scamcoin' has been conclusively lost.

Out.
It's fun to watch the moving goalposts. The game hasn't changed, but there's no point in playing our first string anymore. It's fun watching NXT defenders run around scrambling for new obfuscations.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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