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Author Topic: POW vs POS?  (Read 3559 times)
kokojie
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October 05, 2014, 01:27:58 PM
 #41

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure itself anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

There's nothing to stop a well funded and determined attacker to attack Bitcoin's PoW network in the same fashion, it's still only cost 10% of Bitcoin marketcap to attack. That's extremely cheap compared to buying 51% stake in a PoS eco-system.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
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cbeast
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October 05, 2014, 01:30:53 PM
 #42

PoS bag holders sound like communist party politicians. They say that working is at an end if you will join their party. They then proceed to violently assault the business leadership  (PoW miners) in the community and use intimidation to scam their property. I prefer an honest days work for an honest days pay.Thanks, but no thanks Mr. Chairman.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
inBitweTrust
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October 05, 2014, 01:32:11 PM
 #43

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

What if the stakeholders attacked their own currency unintentionally by falsely believing their actions would benefit their currency? Is this not a real possibility that is unfolding itself right now with Bitshares which may happen as soon as 1Q 2015 with a very real marketing plan that is being negotiated with certain banks?

Or are you going to insist that PoS/DPoS is immune?

kokojie
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October 05, 2014, 01:35:19 PM
 #44

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

What if the stakeholders attacked their own currency unintentionally by falsely believing their actions would benefit their currency? Is this not a real possibility that is unfolding itself right now with Bitshares which may happen as soon as 1Q 2015 with a very real marketing plan that is being negotiated with certain banks?

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
inBitweTrust
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October 05, 2014, 01:41:13 PM
 #45

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

kokojie
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October 05, 2014, 01:47:36 PM
 #46

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
inBitweTrust
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October 05, 2014, 02:00:46 PM
 #47

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

Why do you need the evidence, DPoS is immune to attacks, right? I'm surprised you are unaware, aren't you a delegate? It is happening soon as well, as early as 1Q 2015!
I would rather have you reflect and think critically about security rather than handing you the details on a silver plate. Some self reflection about security is just what you need
and if I hand over the links I fear you will just rationalize them.

I am not spreading FUD either and if you are willing to wager a friendly BTC I can provide the evidence for you to back up my statements.

BTCmoons
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October 05, 2014, 04:27:12 PM
 #48

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?
This is probably not true (LOL) however it is a good point that the large stakeholders could potentially all be the same person (or group of people working together) who can potentially attack the network for free.

If it does not cost anything to mine then it does not cost anything to attack the network
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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


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October 05, 2014, 05:30:15 PM
 #49


You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

kokojie
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October 05, 2014, 05:32:24 PM
 #50


You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already. Your theory is a imagined scenario, that can not be done in reality, that's why it has never happened in reality.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
kokojie
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October 05, 2014, 05:33:38 PM
 #51

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

Why do you need the evidence, DPoS is immune to attacks, right? I'm surprised you are unaware, aren't you a delegate? It is happening soon as well, as early as 1Q 2015!
I would rather have you reflect and think critically about security rather than handing you the details on a silver plate. Some self reflection about security is just what you need
and if I hand over the links I fear you will just rationalize them.

I am not spreading FUD either and if you are willing to wager a friendly BTC I can provide the evidence for you to back up my statements.

So far you have presented me zero proof of your claim, so I would just have to take it as a rumor then. Your argument is therefore invalid, because you have created yet another imagined scenario that doesn't exist in reality. I know you have a vivid imagination from prior discussion.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
jonald_fyookball
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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political


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October 05, 2014, 05:34:22 PM
 #52


You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

kokojie
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October 05, 2014, 05:36:32 PM
 #53


You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

What's the point of publishing the key afterwards? the stake is already gone, you can't attack with non-existent stake.

btc: 15sFnThw58hiGHYXyUAasgfauifTEB1ZF6
Mowcore
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October 05, 2014, 05:39:34 PM
 #54

Ha. I clicked on this going "I'm sure Kokojie will be right on this", and bam there it is.. haha derp

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inBitweTrust
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October 05, 2014, 05:52:54 PM
 #55

So far you have presented me zero proof of your claim, so I would just have to take it as a rumor then. Your argument is therefore invalid  unknown to a delegate who is not up to date on the direction other founders are taking the currency.

An argument from ignorance? It's a shame that you are unaware of something so big and important with BTSX, being that you are a delegate and all.

I already sent the evidence to BTCmoons and willing to send it to any other known member that requests it that isn't a BTSX advocate. The reason I simply don't paste the evidence here is I want you to think critically about security in general and don't want to derail this thread and make make it about focusing of criticizing Bitshares as I have nothing against that project personally.

It is also to make a point how something important may happen within a DPoS coin without a portion of the delegates even being aware. How does that happen?

jonald_fyookball
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October 05, 2014, 07:31:15 PM
 #56


You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

What's the point of publishing the key afterwards? the stake is already gone, you can't attack with non-existent stake.

sure you can.  I guess you don't understand the NaS attack.  That's the essense of it. 
longest-chain-wins is the mechanism for distributed consensus.  time stamping isn't used
because consensus would be lost, and nodes have no way of "looking back in time". 

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October 06, 2014, 01:44:59 PM
 #57

Pos - all new coins they say are Pos based. Smiley Better be sure than end up crying.
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October 06, 2014, 01:50:33 PM
 #58

I really don't understand as of now, why PoW will have to fail. And on the other hand, I don't understand how PoS is inherently more unsafe than PoW! Is there a really simple, concise explanation of those things???

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October 06, 2014, 02:05:51 PM
 #59

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure itself anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

There's nothing to stop a well funded and determined attacker to attack Bitcoin's PoW network in the same fashion, it's still only cost 10% of Bitcoin marketcap to attack. That's extremely cheap compared to buying 51% stake in a PoS eco-system.

In all IPOs, you should assume the worst case - 51% stake in a PoS exist at start, so extremely cheap
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October 06, 2014, 02:50:34 PM
 #60

Proof of Work, It says it all right there. A proof that fair work has been done. If you dig a ditch you can proof the work has been done but you will have a hard time exchanging it, Bitcoin takes care of this. If you used a shovel or a digger is irrelevant its a matter what is the best economic choice.  
Miners purpose is to mine and thats it just like a gold miner is mining to sell to have a functional business and just keeps a small amount for the lean times. A miner invest in machinery and a lot of other thins and not in gold/bitcoin, another investor will do that.
Bitcoin is a commodity, it is modern Gold the currency aspect of it is just a added bonus just like gold is legal tender (depending on jurisdiction). Money is not something you buy like a ripple cost nothing to produce and millions are given to the banks for free, and you can buy some, lol. That system sound familiar. Why would anyone pay for something which cost nothing to produce, is not scarce as it can be copied endlessly and it does not matter when its started.
Increase the market cap by 100B with the push of a button from $ 40 000  000 to $ 140 000 000 is literately worse scam than the the FED. Zero transparency, corporate centralized at least 92%  of available still to be sold at any price which is dreamed up. Oh yeh give it to me baby a dream come true.


Its amazing how many people struggle with the word work.  
Satoshi is so far ahead its not funny in due time even the slowest one will catch up.

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