POW vs POS?

[inBitweTrust]

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

[kokojie]

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

[inBitweTrust]

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

Why do you need the evidence, DPoS is immune to attacks, right? I'm surprised you are unaware, aren't you a delegate? It is happening soon as well, as early as 1Q 2015!
I would rather have you reflect and think critically about security rather than handing you the details on a silver plate. Some self reflection about security is just what you need
and if I hand over the links I fear you will just rationalize them.

I am not spreading FUD either and if you are willing to wager a friendly BTC I can provide the evidence for you to back up my statements.

[BTCmoons]

Not sure what you mean, you'll need to talk in more detail how is this an attack on their own currency, how do you know with certainty that something is a false benefit, while stakeholders believe otherwise?

Are you unaware that many large BTSX/PTS stakeholders, and Invictus developers are currently right now negotiating a marketing affiliate plan with banks which will be likely funded either with another direct or indirect method of devaluation of everyone's stake ?

This is probably not true (LOL) however it is a good point that the large stakeholders could potentially all be the same person (or group of people working together) who can potentially attack the network for free.

If it does not cost anything to mine then it does not cost anything to attack the network

[jonald_fyookball]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

[kokojie]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already. Your theory is a imagined scenario, that can not be done in reality, that's why it has never happened in reality.

[kokojie]

Again you have to give me more detail, links maybe? I'm not aware of any plans to devalue stakes.

Why do you need the evidence, DPoS is immune to attacks, right? I'm surprised you are unaware, aren't you a delegate? It is happening soon as well, as early as 1Q 2015!
I would rather have you reflect and think critically about security rather than handing you the details on a silver plate. Some self reflection about security is just what you need
and if I hand over the links I fear you will just rationalize them.

I am not spreading FUD either and if you are willing to wager a friendly BTC I can provide the evidence for you to back up my statements.

So far you have presented me zero proof of your claim, so I would just have to take it as a rumor then. Your argument is therefore invalid, because you have created yet another imagined scenario that doesn't exist in reality. I know you have a vivid imagination from prior discussion.

[jonald_fyookball]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

[kokojie]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

What's the point of publishing the key afterwards? the stake is already gone, you can't attack with non-existent stake.

[Mowcore]

Ha. I clicked on this going "I'm sure Kokojie will be right on this", and bam there it is.. haha derp

[inBitweTrust]

So far you have presented me zero proof of your claim, so I would just have to take it as a rumor then. Your argument is therefore invalid  unknown to a delegate who is not up to date on the direction other founders are taking the currency.

An argument from ignorance? It's a shame that you are unaware of something so big and important with BTSX, being that you are a delegate and all.

I already sent the evidence to BTCmoons and willing to send it to any other known member that requests it that isn't a BTSX advocate. The reason I simply don't paste the evidence here is I want you to think critically about security in general and don't want to derail this thread and make make it about focusing of criticizing Bitshares as I have nothing against that project personally.

It is also to make a point how something important may happen within a DPoS coin without a portion of the delegates even being aware. How does that happen?

[jonald_fyookball]

You will never read about that scenario happening, because no one is dumb enough to buy 51% stake in an eco-system, then proceed to destroy their own stake and wealth. It's like burning your own money.

No, they would sell the stake and THEN attack it.  that's the issue.  the attacker acts as if they still had that stake and it was the point in time just prior to selling.  and there's very little cost to do it unlike pow hashing.  that's the infamous NaS problem.

How do you sell 51% stake in an eco-system, and then attack it? I don't see how that is even possible. The selling alone would take months, and would alert the community already.

doesn't need to be 51%.  plus I can sell coins/shares and simply publish my private keys afterward.  now anyone has those keys at that point in time.  

What's the point of publishing the key afterwards? the stake is already gone, you can't attack with non-existent stake.

sure you can.  I guess you don't understand the NaS attack.  That's the essense of it. 
longest-chain-wins is the mechanism for distributed consensus.  time stamping isn't used
because consensus would be lost, and nodes have no way of "looking back in time". 

[Get.BTC.Now]

Pos - all new coins they say are Pos based. Better be sure than end up crying.

[FUR11]

I really don't understand as of now, why PoW will have to fail. And on the other hand, I don't understand how PoS is inherently more unsafe than PoW! Is there a really simple, concise explanation of those things???

[sealberrder]

PoW coins are slowing going out of fashion it seems.

All the new coins are PoS based and some are doing quite well.

This naturally makes sense, PoW alts can't properly secure itself anymore because of either Scrypt Asics, botnets, or simply not having the hashing power of Bitcoin. I expect many PoW alts to start failing and continue decreasing in market share because of this. Look how litecoin just recently lost number 2 in market cap -- http://coinmarketcap.com/

The exception to this are coins that depend upon the security of bitcoin blockchain like coloredcoins , counter-party, mastercoin, and namecoin.

There's nothing to stop a well funded and determined attacker to attack Bitcoin's PoW network in the same fashion, it's still only cost 10% of Bitcoin marketcap to attack. That's extremely cheap compared to buying 51% stake in a PoS eco-system.

In all IPOs, you should assume the worst case - 51% stake in a PoS exist at start, so extremely cheap

[manfred]

Proof of Work, It says it all right there. A proof that fair work has been done. If you dig a ditch you can proof the work has been done but you will have a hard time exchanging it, Bitcoin takes care of this. If you used a shovel or a digger is irrelevant its a matter what is the best economic choice.  
Miners purpose is to mine and thats it just like a gold miner is mining to sell to have a functional business and just keeps a small amount for the lean times. A miner invest in machinery and a lot of other thins and not in gold/bitcoin, another investor will do that.
Bitcoin is a commodity, it is modern Gold the currency aspect of it is just a added bonus just like gold is legal tender (depending on jurisdiction). Money is not something you buy like a ripple cost nothing to produce and millions are given to the banks for free, and you can buy some, lol. That system sound familiar. Why would anyone pay for something which cost nothing to produce, is not scarce as it can be copied endlessly and it does not matter when its started.
Increase the market cap by 100B with the push of a button from $ 40 000  000 to $ 140 000 000 is literately worse scam than the the FED. Zero transparency, corporate centralized at least 92%  of available still to be sold at any price which is dreamed up. Oh yeh give it to me baby a dream come true.

[kokojie]

Proof of Work, It says it all right there. A proof that fair work has been done. If you dig a ditch you can proof the work has been done but you will have a hard time exchanging it, Bitcoin takes care of this. If you used a shovel or a digger is irrelevant its a matter what is the best economic choice.  
Miners purpose is to mine and thats it just like a gold miner is mining to sell to have a functional business and just keeps a small amount for the lean times. A miner invest in machinery and a lot of other thins and not in gold/bitcoin, another investor will do that.
Bitcoin is a commodity, it is modern Gold the currency aspect of it is just a added bonus just like gold is legal tender (depending on jurisdiction). Money is not something you buy like a ripple cost nothing to produce and millions are given to the banks for free, and you can buy some, lol. That system sound familiar. Why would anyone pay for something which cost nothing to produce, is not scarce as it can be copied endlessly and it does not matter when its started.
Increase the market cap by 100B with the push of a button from $ 40 000  000 to $ 140 000 000 is literately worse scam than the the FED. Zero transparency, corporate centralized at least 92%  of available still to be sold at any price which is dreamed up. Oh yeh give it to me baby a dream come true.


Its amazing how many people struggle with the word work.  
Satoshi is so far ahead its not funny in due time even the slowest one will catch up.

1. even when Bitcoin coin supply is zero, PoW is still needed in order to secure the network, therefore PoW has nothing to do with cost of producing Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not gold, PoW miners are not real miners. Real mining is required to extract gold, PoW mining is NOT required to produce Bitcoin, a PoS mining network could do the same thing, with nearly zero cost.

2. PoW's work is useless and meaningless work, there's no value in it. PoW extracts value from the Bitcoin eco-system, because Bitcoin eco-system is where the value is at, not the PoW network.

3. PoS can secure the network better than PoW, it's a proven concept as many PoW altcoins fall victim to 51% attack, and PoS altcoin are all secure and not attacked.

4. PoS re-invest in the community and eco-system, PoW extracts value out of the eco-system, and into the pockets of the mining interest group (miners/pools/hardware vendor/electric company). This is again a proven concept, as PoS eco-systems are rising to the top of coinmarketcap.

Satoshi is smart and a visionary, but he is not God, he can not foresee everything and solve all problems, otherwise we'd already have Bitcoin core 1.0 five years ago.

[newuser01]

Proof of Work, It says it all right there. A proof that fair work has been done. If you dig a ditch you can proof the work has been done but you will have a hard time exchanging it, Bitcoin takes care of this. If you used a shovel or a digger is irrelevant its a matter what is the best economic choice.  
Miners purpose is to mine and thats it just like a gold miner is mining to sell to have a functional business and just keeps a small amount for the lean times. A miner invest in machinery and a lot of other thins and not in gold/bitcoin, another investor will do that.
Bitcoin is a commodity, it is modern Gold the currency aspect of it is just a added bonus just like gold is legal tender (depending on jurisdiction). Money is not something you buy like a ripple cost nothing to produce and millions are given to the banks for free, and you can buy some, lol. That system sound familiar. Why would anyone pay for something which cost nothing to produce, is not scarce as it can be copied endlessly and it does not matter when its started.
Increase the market cap by 100B with the push of a button from $ 40 000  000 to $ 140 000 000 is literately worse scam than the the FED. Zero transparency, corporate centralized at least 92%  of available still to be sold at any price which is dreamed up. Oh yeh give it to me baby a dream come true.


Its amazing how many people struggle with the word work.  
Satoshi is so far ahead its not funny in due time even the slowest one will catch up.

1. even when Bitcoin coin supply is zero, PoW is still needed in order to secure the network, therefore PoW has nothing to do with cost of producing Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not gold, PoW miners are not real miners. Real mining is required to extract gold, PoW mining is NOT required to produce Bitcoin, a PoS mining network could do the same thing, with nearly zero cost.

2. PoW's work is useless and meaningless work, there's no value in it. PoW extracts value from the Bitcoin eco-system, because Bitcoin eco-system is where the value is at, not the PoW network.

3. PoS can secure the network better than PoW, it's a proven concept as many PoW altcoins fall victim to 51% attack, and PoS altcoin are all secure and not attacked.

4. PoS re-invest in the community and eco-system, PoW extracts value out of the eco-system, and into the pockets of the mining interest group (miners/pools/hardware vendor/electric company). This is again a proven concept, as PoS eco-systems are rising to the top of coinmarketcap.

Do you really consider PoS networks more secure than PoW?

even when you can attack the network at zero cost with PoS?

I dont know if post is troll or not


I see now from your other posts you simply dont know understand how PoS works.. it is ok, when the attack happens and your coins are worthless maybe you will change opinion

[kokojie]

Proof of Work, It says it all right there. A proof that fair work has been done. If you dig a ditch you can proof the work has been done but you will have a hard time exchanging it, Bitcoin takes care of this. If you used a shovel or a digger is irrelevant its a matter what is the best economic choice.  
Miners purpose is to mine and thats it just like a gold miner is mining to sell to have a functional business and just keeps a small amount for the lean times. A miner invest in machinery and a lot of other thins and not in gold/bitcoin, another investor will do that.
Bitcoin is a commodity, it is modern Gold the currency aspect of it is just a added bonus just like gold is legal tender (depending on jurisdiction). Money is not something you buy like a ripple cost nothing to produce and millions are given to the banks for free, and you can buy some, lol. That system sound familiar. Why would anyone pay for something which cost nothing to produce, is not scarce as it can be copied endlessly and it does not matter when its started.
Increase the market cap by 100B with the push of a button from $ 40 000  000 to $ 140 000 000 is literately worse scam than the the FED. Zero transparency, corporate centralized at least 92%  of available still to be sold at any price which is dreamed up. Oh yeh give it to me baby a dream come true.


Its amazing how many people struggle with the word work.  
Satoshi is so far ahead its not funny in due time even the slowest one will catch up.

1. even when Bitcoin coin supply is zero, PoW is still needed in order to secure the network, therefore PoW has nothing to do with cost of producing Bitcoin. Bitcoin is not gold, PoW miners are not real miners. Real mining is required to extract gold, PoW mining is NOT required to produce Bitcoin, a PoS mining network could do the same thing, with nearly zero cost.

2. PoW's work is useless and meaningless work, there's no value in it. PoW extracts value from the Bitcoin eco-system, because Bitcoin eco-system is where the value is at, not the PoW network.

3. PoS can secure the network better than PoW, it's a proven concept as many PoW altcoins fall victim to 51% attack, and PoS altcoin are all secure and not attacked.

4. PoS re-invest in the community and eco-system, PoW extracts value out of the eco-system, and into the pockets of the mining interest group (miners/pools/hardware vendor/electric company). This is again a proven concept, as PoS eco-systems are rising to the top of coinmarketcap.

Do you really consider PoS networks more secure than PoW?

even when you can attack the network at zero cost with PoS?

I dont know if post is troll or not

Go attack one and show me then? Until you could show me how you could attack one in reality, the fact is still many PoW network has been attacked to death, and ZERO PoS network has been successfully attacked.

[kokojie]

when the attack happens and your coins are worthless maybe you will change opinion

I think just the contrary, when Bitcoin PoW is attacked, and your Bitcoins are worthless, maybe you will change opinion. Because PoW network are PROVEN to be easily attacked, it's just a matter of time, that a well funded and determined attacker will attack Bitcoin PoW network.

On the other hand, no PoS network has been successfully attacked in reality, so I will believe it when I see it.

Even without any attack, if there's no inflow of capital, Bitcoin's price will go toward zero due to the PoW expense. Basically constant inflow of capital is required, to support the Bitcoin price.