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Author Topic: SkepsiDyne Integrated Node - The Bitcoin Mining Company  (Read 92759 times)
Zape
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June 02, 2011, 09:07:15 PM
 #141

Update: all components are currently in the mail.  We're selling stock at .75 BTC / share again because the previous 1 BTC / share price was not selling.

Stock wasn't selling at 1 BTC because potential buyers, like me, are waiting to see more than 2 systems on-line at once.  You seem to be suffering from a number of set backs which, while not necessarily your fault, make me wary.  In fact, dropping the price made me more wary.  Hopefully you really will be bringing 7+ systems up, but right now, it could just be a pig in a poke.  I'm not micromanaging your business, which I haven't invested in, but I do believe you are misreading the market.
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oillio
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June 02, 2011, 09:25:06 PM
 #142

One reason I think it was not selling at 1.00 was that the market had several days notice that the price was going to be moved up.  It looks like there were many people that bought at 0.75 and sold at 0.99 for a quick profit.

In the future, I recommend taking the large block of shares off the market while a price change vote is up for consideration.  This will help avoid these arbitrage games.
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June 03, 2011, 01:26:30 AM
 #143

Update: all components are currently in the mail.  We're selling stock at .75 BTC / share again because the previous 1 BTC / share price was not selling.

Stock wasn't selling at 1 BTC because potential buyers, like me, are waiting to see more than 2 systems on-line at once.  You seem to be suffering from a number of set backs which, while not necessarily your fault, make me wary.  In fact, dropping the price made me more wary.  Hopefully you really will be bringing 7+ systems up, but right now, it could just be a pig in a poke.  I'm not micromanaging your business, which I haven't invested in, but I do believe you are misreading the market.

Dropping the price was necessary, because all unsold shares must be sold as soon as possible.  It is where SIN is getting its starting fund, the funds paying for those rigs.  Tawsix wasn't the one who decided to bring the price up to 1, it was the shareholders.  I supported, but did not vote on the decision to increase the share price, because I thought that a good amount of the people investing were planning on holding their shares for some time...

Given the way that SIN was trading when the unsold shares were upped in price, clearly a good amount of people were merely wanting to sell at .9999999, or anything higher than .75.

When the current investors have the confidence to hold onto shares if another price increase were to happen, that would be a sign of real confidence on the part of the original investors and would hopefully show other possible investors that people are not merely speculating.
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June 03, 2011, 01:43:20 AM
 #144



Dropping the price was necessary, because all unsold shares must be sold as soon as possible.  It is where SIN is getting its starting fund, the funds paying for those rigs.  Tawsix wasn't the one who decided to bring the price up to 1, it was the shareholders.  I supported, but did not vote on the decision to increase the share price, because I thought that a good amount of the people investing were planning on holding their shares for some time...

Given the way that SIN was trading when the unsold shares were upped in price, clearly a good amount of people were merely wanting to sell at .9999999, or anything higher than .75.

When the current investors have the confidence to hold onto shares if another price increase were to happen, that would be a sign of real confidence on the part of the original investors and would hopefully show other possible investors that people are not merely speculating.

But was there a vote?  If there was a vote to drop the price that wasn't advertised here, I'll stop complaining.

I used to be an investor.  Sold off because I never got any info.  Was thinking about buying back in now that some miners were up, and then I see shareholders who are trying to sell getting undercut by the corporation they invested in.  Was this price drop done with the consent of the shareholders, like the price raise, or was it arbitrarily executed by Taswix?

Considering there are 3500 outstanding shares from the IPO, that's a long time for shareholders wait so they can treat their stock like, you know, a stock.

Also note the vote to take the price up to one was initiated by Taswix, so I don't see how he's completely innocent there.

So once again, can anyone tell me if the price drop was approved by the shareholders?
Tawsix
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June 03, 2011, 02:43:20 AM
 #145

But was there a vote?  If there was a vote to drop the price that wasn't advertised here, I'll stop complaining.

I used to be an investor.  Sold off because I never got any info.  Was thinking about buying back in now that some miners were up, and then I see shareholders who are trying to sell getting undercut by the corporation they invested in.  Was this price drop done with the consent of the shareholders, like the price raise, or was it arbitrarily executed by Taswix?

Considering there are 3500 outstanding shares from the IPO, that's a long time for shareholders wait so they can treat their stock like, you know, a stock.

Also note the vote to take the price up to one was initiated by Taswix, so I don't see how he's completely innocent there.

So once again, can anyone tell me if the price drop was approved by the shareholders?

There was no vote, I made the decision.  The person or people who undercut the IPO after the price was raised have admitted that they were doing so to make profit, not because of any loss of faith (though there were a few who sold for less than the original price.)  Only 5 shares of the IPO sold at 1 BTC, then the large chunk of shares was put up for .99-ad nauseam.  After a few people bought these shares, buying dried up.  I postulate that this was due to the fact that the money was no longer going towards investment in the company but to someone who was being very clever and playing the system.

As GLBSE does not take a cut of the transactions right now, I will be offering a system where those who wish to directly invest in the company will be able to PM their GLBSE user ID and the amount they want to purchase, and I will send them an address to send the BTC.  Once I receive the BTC I will manually transfer the shares to their GLBSE account.  Otherwise, people can purchase the shares that are currently undercutting the IPO if their only interest is to pick up milibit cheaper shares.

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June 03, 2011, 02:59:03 AM
 #146

There was no vote, I made the decision.

You prove yourself that you are only interested in new investors and ignore the valueation for shareholder of any BTC already in your pocket. Its not a scam, its a mining ponzi scheme you are running to fund your mining operation.

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boonies4u
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June 03, 2011, 04:38:58 AM
 #147

As a shareholder and an investor, I am more interested in the sale of the unsold shares and the funds acquired from said sales be used to set up more rigs.

If he wanted to, he could have started a vote and votes. He would have won regardless.

There was no vote, I made the decision.

You prove yourself that you are only interested in new investors and ignore the valueation for shareholder of any BTC already in your pocket. Its not a scam, its a mining ponzi scheme you are running to fund your mining operation.

It is Tawsix's responsibility to sell the shares and to acquire new investors.

The only role he needs to play in the market's value of unsold AND sold shares is keeping the business profitable, giving out dividends in the timely manner he has mentioned, and general PR. Basically keeping up and improving the image of the company.

Also to get technical, a ponzi scheme is a scam, and from what Tawsix has shown... he is not scammer.
Nefario
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June 03, 2011, 05:22:01 AM
 #148

I think I need to weigh in on this.

Essentially, attempting to sell the shares at a higher price than the initial IPO offering simply will not work, it's not that the system is being gamed but that the system will not let you(Tawsix) game it.

Others have bought shares at the original 0.75btc price, unless there is more demand(more people want to buy) the price will not rise. This is the only reason that the price can go up in a market is if demand increases or supply decreases.

You are attempting to sell more shares, so supply is not decreasing, it is in fact increasing.

You can say that you will only sell the new shares at 1btc, but this simply will not work, because there are shareholders who have bought (many) shares for 0.75btc, and as long as you sell for even 2 satoishis (0.00000002btc) above 0.75btc the previous buyers will be able to sell at a (small) profit before you ever sell any shares.

Simply put you can't beat the market, and it's not a problem with glbse or with anyone gaming the system. THIS IS THE GAME.

You have to give peopel a reason to want to pay 1btc instead of 0.75 for a share, perhaps a new share that pays a higher dividend, or greater voting rights or something.

Or you could pay a high dividend, this will automatically cause demand for your shares to rise.

You could try to go outside glbse to sell at 1btc but you'll fail. Why would someone buy at a higher price from you when they can get the same thing cheaper (and easier) from the market?

Your only choice is to start paying dividends, sell new shares at the same price, or sell new shares at a lower price(which current shareholders probably won't like).

If you sell new shares at a lower price you won't be able to get the price higher until you get demand higher, and that will only happen with dividend payments.

I believe the market (and that's what you're operating in, a free and open market) won't give you any more capital until you start paying dividends.

Your only choice is to start paying dividends(whether now or in the future), and this means getting mining up and running.

Nefario.

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June 03, 2011, 06:28:15 AM
 #149

What Nefario said is right on.

Tawsix, I mentioned these dynamics early on; the "IPO" floated out about 2000 shares. That's pretty frickin' awesome, actually, so congrats. There wasn't sufficient market demand for all your shares at the IPO price. In the 'real' world, this problem is solved basically by testing the market with knowledgeable insiders who make some calls and commitments, and agree to float shares at an opening price. They buy the shares directly and privately from the corp, then sell what they want on the markets opening day.

Sometimes IPOs fail, that is, there's not uptake of all the shares, or the price drops precipitously in the first few days of trading. In that case, the corporation has had its bite for a little while -- the market has spoken, and it doesn't want all the shares. The corporation needs to make some progress before the market will be interested in dumping more capital into the corporation.

This is the situation you're in.

I urge you to cancel the rest of the 3500 shares on offer. Nobody will buy them until you demonstrate both that you are willing and able to dividend to shareholders from the mining earnings, and that you are continuing to bring more miners onboard. At the least you will be able to provide your existing shareholders with the chance to make a market for your shares; as it is, the massive 3500 on offer hangs over your order book, and it's alienating the people who currently are invested in you (like me!)

If you want to recapitalize the corporation later, you're going to need to work with existing shareholders and find a price everyone is happy about.

On the upside, you have some really simple methods to make people happy:

a) dividend
b) cancel share offering
c) update daily with timeline for new miners
d) bring them online
e) possibly set a dividend schedule so that people know when they should buy/sell.

This is dead simple given where you're at, and will make people much happier.

I'm the CEO of CoinLab (www.coinlab.com) and the Executive Director of the Bitcoin Foundation, I will identify if I'm speaking for myself or one of the organizations when I post from this account.
Tawsix
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June 03, 2011, 02:04:02 PM
 #150

Nefario: The intention on my end was not to game the market, it was to give the initial investors a reward for their early trust.  I say that I got gamed because some people bought into the shares once the announcement that the value of the shares would be increased for the sole purpose of undercutting the IPO once it was repriced.  I agree that dividend payment will renew interest in the shares, and that is currently the goal to reach after bringing the total capacity of the company online.

vess: I can not take the IPO down, it will be the main source of income until many more rigs are brought on line.  The purpose of the shares sold was to raise funds, not create a market for shareholders.  The intention was that shareholders were in it for the long run, making an investment, not that they would see immediate liquidity in their stocks.  Once dividends begin being paid, which will occur when everything is settled in, the IPO will begin selling again.

As far as the new rigs arriving: they are currently scheduled to arrive on Monday.  This weekend I will be unlocking all of the GPU's I currently have so that they can be overclocked higher once the rigs arrive.

Zape
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June 03, 2011, 02:16:35 PM
 #151

...
As far as the new rigs arriving: they are currently scheduled to arrive on Monday.  This weekend I will be unlocking all of the GPU's I currently have so that they can be overclocked higher once the rigs arrive.
Does that mean we can look to see 7 rigs online by Tuesday?  That would be VERY encouraging.  Also, Are you going to stick with your plans of sending out 55% profit as dividends, keeping 45% for growth, or will you not do that until all shares are sold?  I ask because, I think by sowing the pool statistics of the rigs generating coins, and showing your intention to pay out dividends, while still allowing room for growth, will REALLY get people motivated to buy your remaining shares, possibly letting you sell them at the intended 1 BTC.
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June 03, 2011, 02:19:21 PM
 #152

Nefario: The intention on my end was not to game the market, it was to give the initial investors a reward for their early trust.  I say that I got gamed because some people bought into the shares once the announcement that the value of the shares would be increased for the sole purpose of undercutting the IPO once it was repriced.  I agree that dividend payment will renew interest in the shares, and that is currently the goal to reach after bringing the total capacity of the company online.

vess: I can not take the IPO down, it will be the main source of income until many more rigs are brought on line.  The purpose of the shares sold was to raise funds, not create a market for shareholders.  The intention was that shareholders were in it for the long run, making an investment, not that they would see immediate liquidity in their stocks.  Once dividends begin being paid, which will occur when everything is settled in, the IPO will begin selling again.

As far as the new rigs arriving: they are currently scheduled to arrive on Monday.  This weekend I will be unlocking all of the GPU's I currently have so that they can be overclocked higher once the rigs arrive.

What I meant was that you couldn't tell the market what to do, essentially when a market is free you can't beat it, so try to harness it.

Also you really will have to pay dividends before selling more shares, simply no one will buy anymore until you do. That's the market. It's not going to wait because it doesn't have to. And it shouldn't, you should already be mining, and getting ready to pay dividends in a day or two. Look at DISHWARA, he's already paid his first dividend and is on track for another, and he's in India, your in the states, you should be paying dividends already.

This isn't China, shareholders are king here.

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June 03, 2011, 02:55:29 PM
 #153

Well one thing I see is that all shareholders have gained already. With each share being offered for 0.75 BTC, when the price was around $6 / BTC, and now with the price at $13-14, the cost of entry has more than doubled.

This also means that to get new machines online will also only cost half of the orginial cost at the moment. If the market continues to increase, I would expect to see the number of machines coming online a lot faster.

Phil
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June 03, 2011, 03:39:47 PM
 #154

Using filharvey's logic the price of shares could drop lower than 0.75... hmmm I'm not so sure. I'm with nefario on this - show some progress by paying out a dividend. That'll get people interested again.

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June 03, 2011, 05:04:22 PM
 #155

I'm not saying the price per share should drop, but comparing it to the real price in $$$$. In which case the original investors have doubled their money.

If the expected return in BTC remains the same, then there should not be any drop in IPO price. Just that new shares sold at 0.75 are bringing in more money to the company to purchase equipment. And so less shares are needed to move production on faster.


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June 03, 2011, 05:13:57 PM
 #156

I'm not saying the price per share should drop, but comparing it to the real price in $$$$. In which case the original investors have doubled their money.

...
I can't quite go with your logic.  I didn't invest.  By the same logic, I have doubled my money by not investing.  As long as the trade, and the reward/dividends are in BTC, the USD values are irrelevant, except when investors finally cash out.  And until they receive BTC in dividends, all they've done is incur risk with no reward.  In fact, since the value of the purchased equipment vs. BTC has decreased, without revenue generation occurring, I'd go so far as to say the existing shareholders have lost money.

OK, I'll quit being a Debbie Downer now.  I really would like to see this project succeed.  However, if things do fail hopefully the community will learn valuable lessons in trust and anonymity.
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June 03, 2011, 06:25:34 PM
 #157

As a shareholder and an investor, I am more interested in the sale of the unsold shares and the funds acquired from said sales be used to set up more rigs.

If he wanted to, he could have started a vote and votes. He would have won regardless.


Hate to sound like I'm just being a hater, but actually I've been on the fence about re-investing.

If there would have been a vote, explaining why the price raise was a mistake, and how it should be lowered so the business can raise more capital, yeah, I think it probably would have passed.  But it would have also shown some respect to the shareholders.  It would have shown me that important decisions and problems would actually be discussed with the owners of the company, instead of just make arbitrarily.  That's what shareholders are, the owners of the company.  Even if they are greedy bastards who bought at 0.75 just so they could sell at 0.99999999.

Even better would have been a vote to yank all IPO shares, and release a finite amount, like say 250, with a specific goal, like say add 5 rigs.  (Not sure if the math works out there but you get the point.)  That way it would be reasonable to expect that in a few months the existing shares might actually trade at .8 or something like that.  And then another 250 could be released at .8 then.  That would make it easier for people to invest seriously, and actually treat their investment like a stock, rather than a loan or a bond.
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June 03, 2011, 07:23:27 PM
 #158

As a shareholder and an investor, I am more interested in the sale of the unsold shares and the funds acquired from said sales be used to set up more rigs.

If he wanted to, he could have started a vote and votes. He would have won regardless.


Hate to sound like I'm just being a hater, but actually I've been on the fence about re-investing.

If there would have been a vote, explaining why the price raise was a mistake, and how it should be lowered so the business can raise more capital, yeah, I think it probably would have passed.  But it would have also shown some respect to the shareholders.  It would have shown me that important decisions and problems would actually be discussed with the owners of the company, instead of just make arbitrarily.  That's what shareholders are, the owners of the company.  Even if they are greedy bastards who bought at 0.75 just so they could sell at 0.99999999.

Even better would have been a vote to yank all IPO shares, and release a finite amount, like say 250, with a specific goal, like say add 5 rigs.  (Not sure if the math works out there but you get the point.)  That way it would be reasonable to expect that in a few months the existing shares might actually trade at .8 or something like that.  And then another 250 could be released at .8 then.  That would make it easier for people to invest seriously, and actually treat their investment like a stock, rather than a loan or a bond.


I understand what you're trying to say, but Tawsix already said that he's wanting to sell the IPO shares as soon as possible. I would have liked to see a vote, but I don't consider him not issuing one a big deal.

All the shares up for sale is a pretty easy way to publicize the amount of unsold shares.

I don't think how Tawsix sells the share will affect the investor confidence, it will depend more on his ability to help the image and profitability of the company. Once the first dividends are handed out, expect a jump in confidence. Either that, or us passing superman3486 on BTCMine would.

The sale of the IPO shares is what I would like to see happen ASAP, I would not like to see Tawsix resort to selling below .75 to achieve this though.
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June 03, 2011, 07:48:01 PM
 #159

What might be interesting as well (someone from the shareholders up for this?) would be taking the API data and drawing a few nice graphs (like hashrate, BTC generated...) for potential investors to gaze upon and show that this is not a scam.

Also it might be useful for Tawsix to take some advice from us. For example it would be VERY wise in my opinion to run 2 miners on each GPU core - 1 at Eligius and a second one at another 0% fee pool like btcmine. Should one of these 2 go down, the full hashing capacity would failover to the other pool. As payouts at Eligius are automatic and not even signup is required, there is nearly 0 time investment needed other than writing maybe a few lines in an init-script and it would increase uptime for sure a lot, especially with the recent DDOS attacks all around.

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June 04, 2011, 02:47:49 AM
 #160

I'd be willing to get on logging/graphing the data as soon as it becomes available, as well as aggregating multiple data sources should SkepsiDyne decide to take your advice (which I agree with.)

Not sure if it's what you need, but here's data for the SkepsiDyne rigs that are already active:
http://btcmine.com/api/getstats/020d055f94131c4b29baeca9915c7e04917bb18e/
http://btcmine.com/api/getminerstats/020d055f94131c4b29baeca9915c7e04917bb18e/
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