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Author Topic: SkepsiDyne Integrated Node - The Bitcoin Mining Company  (Read 92752 times)
Capitan
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June 30, 2011, 01:17:15 AM
 #421

SkepsiDyne is neither a legal entity by SEC standards nor is inside trading a crime in my view.  Shouldn't those willing to take risks get the rewards of early access to info regarding those risks?  Can government limit speech?

This is not the place to be talking about the law, but assuming the Bitcoin community loves free markets, free flowing information, and a consistent moral code, insider secrets should be regarded by non shareholders as irrelevant to their own affairs.
I only mention the law not because it applies but because this is custom that has evolved over hundreds of years of securities trading. Looking at the history of some past dodgy deals I'm quite glad of it.

To answer your question: How do you choose who is "morally" entitled to inside info? What if I paid tawsix for inside info 48 hours ahead of public announcements? Wouldn't that give me quite a bit advantage? What if tawsix used his insider position to dump his shares because the building burnt down - he'd have a few hours to do so all the time claiming an internet outage or a power cut.
This is not a free speech issue. This is a control on the dissemination of the speech. I'm not claiming its a government issue, I'm claiming its a moral issue. You also know that free speech has limits: lying, fraud, blackmail, "fire" in a theatre etc. have all evolved as legal limits on free speech. Insider trading is limit for similar reasons - all moral ones.

This is a moral debate. As an earlier poster said too often people think they're doing some new and special here and instead are setting up a new "wild west". Stock exchanges evolved rules (eventually set into law) because it benefited their customers. I'm not saying all those systems and rules are good - except this one.

Free flowing info? Yes I agree everybody should have access to it: Shareholders and non-shareholders (who want it). So if there is insider info let's publicly release it. I think I will.

No insider secrets are relevant to potential shareholders.

I can image we're never going to agree - so it's probably going to come down to who holds more shares: you or I. Happy voting.

Very nice explanation against insider trading, and why it should not be done, even in bitcoin companies.

Glad to see there are others who recognize the wild west nature of bitcoin and fight back against the morons who fuel it.
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Capitan
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June 30, 2011, 01:28:10 AM
 #422

Wooo, 4 bitcents!  Cheesy  Better than nothing I suppose...  Smiley

It's more than you would get for interest at a normal bank account.

At a bank you get your deposit back.

If you store USD in a bank account your returned deposit will have less purchasing power than your initial deposit thanks to inflation.  If you get less purchasing power back from your bank, I don't think that really counts as getting your deposit back.

I think it does count as getting your deposit back. Any time you put in a deposit and get it back it has most likely lost value due to inflation. You're pointing out the obvious.

To some, probably to most, guarantee of getting a deposit back beats uncertainty of an investment where you might get a high return at first but no guarantee of ever breaking even or getting back your deposit.

A lot of people call bitcoin a Ponzi, which while there are similaries and I can see why they would say that, is technically incorrect. But a mining company like this one one step closer to a Ponzi. The returns are guaranteed to go down due to difficulty. Quoting an annualized rate of return is bogus because is not reasonable to assume that the rate of return so far will not either decrease or increase wildly over the remainder of the company's 1st year. Just to point out the risk involved, in order to maintain the current level of return , new mining hardware has to be continually added to keep up with difficulty. This means new investment is regularly needed to purchase more mining hardware, just to maintain an initial rate of return.

Of course that comes with the standard disclaimers that both BTC value as well as difficulty could either increase or decrease. No one knows, and what you are doing when you invest here is essentially making a bet on what will happen with those two factors. Plus you also play a juicy premium to have the mining company run the mining for you.

EDIT: Fixed typo deflation -> inflation.
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June 30, 2011, 01:52:13 AM
 #423

At a bank you get your deposit back.
If you store USD in a bank account your returned deposit will have less purchasing power than your initial deposit thanks to inflation.  If you get less purchasing power back from your bank, I don't think that really counts as getting your deposit back.

I think it does count as getting your deposit back. Any time you put in a deposit and get it back it has most likely lost value due to deflation. You're pointing out the obvious.

I don't think you know what deflation means.  The USD deposit will have lost value (purchasing power) due to USD inflation, an increase in the USD money supply.  This is one of the problems that Bitcoin has the potential to fix.
Capitan
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June 30, 2011, 03:08:06 AM
 #424

At a bank you get your deposit back.
If you store USD in a bank account your returned deposit will have less purchasing power than your initial deposit thanks to inflation.  If you get less purchasing power back from your bank, I don't think that really counts as getting your deposit back.

I think it does count as getting your deposit back. Any time you put in a deposit and get it back it has most likely lost value due to deflation. You're pointing out the obvious.

I don't think you know what deflation means.  The USD deposit will have lost value (purchasing power) due to USD inflation, an increase in the USD money supply.  This is one of the problems that Bitcoin has the potential to fix.

My bad. I do know what deflation means. That was a typo. I am sometimes dyslexic like that, embarrassing myself by typing out either an antonym or homonym of the word I am thinking of.
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June 30, 2011, 04:12:42 AM
 #425

To yesterday's posts:

Will the new rigs be able to produce 1000+ Mhash/sec per piece ? Yes.

how about an irc channel with a password sent to all investors using a motion or something like that? To be honest I do not have enough time or a regular enough schedule to put together an IRC channel and be in it daily to answer questions, etc.

What is the max # of rigs you will be able to support in current facilities? Space-wise: >> 300.  Electricity-wise: 40.  Then we'll need a service upgrade (which comes with better rates, on the bright side.)

how many rigs can be cooled using the cooling methods currently being employed ? At least the first 40, then we'll have to see how expandable it is.

What problem did you have? Idle worker, disconnections.  Played with it for about an hour, then put them back on BTCmine.

I think it would be useful to know what timezone SIN is operating. EST (-5 GMT)

We've passed 200 BTC paid out on BTCMine! Let's hurry up and get out of there before it gets any higher! Working on it Smiley

-------------------------------

Update: Waiting on the cards for the second computer, so that won't be up today.  Other than that, everything else seems to be arriving on schedule.  I'm still looking around for a different pool than BTCmine, it is unfortunate that BTCguild does not work for us.  We may temporarily switch completely over to Bitcoins.lc just to get onto a no-fee pool for the time being.  I would appreciate any suggestions for pools with > 1 Thash/sec and no fees.

A note: the current situation is exactly why I proposed SIN: we've reached a higher difficulty but price of BTC hasn't followed.  This means that there is less ability for current miners to expand and less incentive for new miners to join.  However, because SIN is still getting investments (as well as still producing a sizable sum of BTC) we can continue expanding.  In fact, this week (the week following a huge increase in difficulty) will be the largest expansion this company has seen since the initial 5 rigs.  Once again, I would like to thank investors for their faith in this venture.  As Bitcoin makes history, so will we.

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June 30, 2011, 04:47:58 AM
 #426

Just to point out the risk involved, in order to maintain the current level of return , new mining hardware has to be continually added to keep up with difficulty. This means new investment is regularly needed to purchase more mining hardware, just to maintain an initial rate of return.

It has already been stated that investment in new hardware will always be needed to keep up with difficulty. Which means that a certain percentage of generated BTC will be put into new hardware. Just as BTC will need to be used to pay for the electric bill as well as other expenses.

Also see...

A note: the current situation is exactly why I proposed SIN: we've reached a higher difficulty but price of BTC hasn't followed.  This means that there is less ability for current miners to expand and less incentive for new miners to join.  However, because SIN is still getting investments (as well as still producing a sizable sum of BTC) we can continue expanding.  In fact, this week (the week following a huge increase in difficulty) will be the largest expansion this company has seen since the initial 5 rigs.  Once again, I would like to thank investors for their faith in this venture.  As Bitcoin makes history, so will we.

Investing in a mining company has other benefits than the hopes of profit, if that was the only reason, I would have been mining by myself.
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June 30, 2011, 05:27:01 PM
 #427

Wooo, 4 bitcents!  Cheesy  Better than nothing I suppose...  Smiley

It's more than you would get for interest at a normal bank account.

At a bank you get your deposit back.

If you store USD in a bank account your returned deposit will have less purchasing power than your initial deposit thanks to inflation.  If you get less purchasing power back from your bank, I don't think that really counts as getting your deposit back.

What's your point?  You are still comparing apples to oranges.  For this to be profitable, you need to make back your initial investment first, then you can start talking interest.  It might happen.  This seems to be much better run than the dishwara mess.  Of course, if you can find someone to buy your shares, more power to you.  But that is far from a guarantee.  You are investing in a business that becomes less profitable every day.  That's not a bad thing, it just means your calculations of value need to account for it.
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June 30, 2011, 06:18:31 PM
 #428

You are investing in a business that becomes less profitable every day.  That's not a bad thing, it just means your calculations of value need to account for it.

It isn't so much the business or even the industry really... It's the individual rigs.

Until all the IPO shares are sold, we'll be seeing a rapid growth in hashing power.  We're leaving it up to Tawsix to spend these funds to bring in efficient and powerful rigs.  Once all the IPO shares are sold, or they start selling at an extremely slow rate, generated BTC will have to be put into purchasing new hardware.  The idea is that by then, mining has scaled up to the point that x number of rigs can be purchased every week, month, or quarter.

Remember that dividends are split up among IPO shares that are SOLD, not counting what goes to paying for Tawsix's shares.  15 shares will have a much lower percentage stake then what they have now. x shares out of 2000 lose 60% stake in the dividends when it comes to x out of 5000. Don't worry though, because as shares are sold, rigs are bought. Just be sure to calculate what % you will be bringing in...
  • Now
  • When all IPO shares are sold
  • When all of Tawsix's shares are paid for
Capitan
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June 30, 2011, 09:58:56 PM
 #429

Just to point out the risk involved, in order to maintain the current level of return , new mining hardware has to be continually added to keep up with difficulty. This means new investment is regularly needed to purchase more mining hardware, just to maintain an initial rate of return.

It has already been stated that investment in new hardware will always be needed to keep up with difficulty. Which means that a certain percentage of generated BTC will be put into new hardware. Just as BTC will need to be used to pay for the electric bill as well as other expenses.

Also see...

A note: the current situation is exactly why I proposed SIN: we've reached a higher difficulty but price of BTC hasn't followed.  This means that there is less ability for current miners to expand and less incentive for new miners to join.  However, because SIN is still getting investments (as well as still producing a sizable sum of BTC) we can continue expanding.  In fact, this week (the week following a huge increase in difficulty) will be the largest expansion this company has seen since the initial 5 rigs.  Once again, I would like to thank investors for their faith in this venture.  As Bitcoin makes history, so will we.

Investing in a mining company has other benefits than the hopes of profit, if that was the only reason, I would have been mining by myself.

I haven't been following this thread in great detail. I thought I remembered reading that the OP's decided to give 100% of earnings back as dividends. If that's not the case, what % is currently going back into new hardware before dividends go out?

Also, what is/are the other benefit(s) of investing in a mining operation aside from profit?
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July 01, 2011, 12:49:39 AM
 #430

Just to point out the risk involved, in order to maintain the current level of return , new mining hardware has to be continually added to keep up with difficulty. This means new investment is regularly needed to purchase more mining hardware, just to maintain an initial rate of return.

It has already been stated that investment in new hardware will always be needed to keep up with difficulty. Which means that a certain percentage of generated BTC will be put into new hardware. Just as BTC will need to be used to pay for the electric bill as well as other expenses.

Also see...

A note: the current situation is exactly why I proposed SIN: we've reached a higher difficulty but price of BTC hasn't followed.  This means that there is less ability for current miners to expand and less incentive for new miners to join.  However, because SIN is still getting investments (as well as still producing a sizable sum of BTC) we can continue expanding.  In fact, this week (the week following a huge increase in difficulty) will be the largest expansion this company has seen since the initial 5 rigs.  Once again, I would like to thank investors for their faith in this venture.  As Bitcoin makes history, so will we.

Investing in a mining company has other benefits than the hopes of profit, if that was the only reason, I would have been mining by myself.

I haven't been following this thread in great detail. I thought I remembered reading that the OP's decided to give 100% of earnings back as dividends. If that's not the case, what % is currently going back into new hardware before dividends go out?

Also, what is/are the other benefit(s) of investing in a mining operation aside from profit?

I believe he gave an estimated % growth, rather than a percent spent. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but it may have just been for an example anyways.

Pretty much the benefits are the same as having a mining contract, someone else runs, maintains, and cools the rigs.  I suppose that a slight benefit over mining contracts would be that with shares, the "contract" never ends, you would just have to sell your shares.

There's also voting, of course.
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July 01, 2011, 04:37:39 AM
 #431

Update: still waiting on some of the computers, everything should be here by tomorrow evening and up by Saturday.  I'm still looking to see which pool we should switch to, and if anyone knows of a good pool with > 1 Thash/sec and no fees, please post!  I have a lot of big ideas I'm working on but there is so little time in the day!  I'll be pretty busy tomorrow too, so I won't be able to post until late again.

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July 01, 2011, 05:24:42 AM
 #432

Wooo, 4 bitcents!  Cheesy  Better than nothing I suppose...  Smiley

It's more than you would get for interest at a normal bank account.

At a bank you get your deposit back.

Not anymore.

boonies4u
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July 01, 2011, 06:03:33 AM
 #433

Wooo, 4 bitcents!  Cheesy  Better than nothing I suppose...  Smiley

It's more than you would get for interest at a normal bank account.

At a bank you get your deposit back.

Not anymore.

Lol... Either way, if needed anyone could put up their shares for .74999999 BTC per share, atleast until the IPO shares have sold.
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July 01, 2011, 09:11:13 AM
 #434

I think you should switch to BTC Guild asap.
This is a great mining pool and you can use 6 pool servers.
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July 01, 2011, 01:48:21 PM
 #435

Wooo, 4 bitcents!  Cheesy  Better than nothing I suppose...  Smiley

It's more than you would get for interest at a normal bank account.

At a bank you get your deposit back.

Not anymore.

Lol... Either way, if needed anyone could put up their shares for .74999999 BTC per share, atleast until the IPO shares have sold.

Doesn't matter, the math is much different when you are buying a depreciating asset expecting to get revenue and one that holds value.  If it holds value, you don't need much interest for it to be a good deal.  If it's depreciating, you need to make up the depreciation AND make interest on top of it.  You better be getting way better than a bank account's interest rate!  I'm not saying it's a bad investment, there are plenty of good investments that are on depreciating assets.

And I was unaware that banks no longer gave deposits back.  Good to know!
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July 01, 2011, 02:22:59 PM
 #436

Update of the webclient is now live, now it allows you to securely keep the keys for multiple accounts stored on your local machine in the browser.

https://glbse.com/client/glbse/index.html

The old client is available here if you prefer.

https://glbse.com/client/glbse_old/index.html

If there are any issues post them in any one of these threads, I'm watching them.

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=13055.80

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=19853.0

I appologise to anyone who didn't get your issues fixed in a timely manner over the last week, that is totally my fault.

Currently I'm the only one who is in a possition to resolve those issues, and was traveling for a few days. This is something We're hoping to resolve as we go forward.

Nefario.

PGP key id at pgp.mit.edu 0xA68F4B7C

To get help and support for GLBSE please email support@glbse.com
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July 01, 2011, 09:51:42 PM
 #437

Houston we have a problem ? Shocked

Tawsix
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July 01, 2011, 11:01:02 PM
 #438

Houston we have a problem ? Shocked



Not at all Smiley  We're trying some of the equipment on BTCguild and so far we've been successful, so keep your fingers crossed!  I will give an update later this evening if everything goes well.  If it doesn't... it may be a long night Wink.

edit: We are currently moving to BTCguild right now, so don't panic about the 0 Ghash/sec.  I'll post API and whatnot when we're all migrated.

P.S.  Nice signature server Wink  May have to change the title of my post to reflect it!

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July 02, 2011, 08:42:00 AM
 #439

Well, it seems that BTCguild will cooperate until we put more than 3 or 4 rigs up, then it starts disconnecting and idling.  I've moved us over to bitcoins.lc, but I really don't like that site.  I think we're stuck with BTCmine, or some other pool with a fee, as Eligius gives me the same problem as BTCguild.  Tomorrow I'm going to move us back to BTCmine, tonight was more a learning experience and less a productive experience.  If anyone has any thoughts on the matter, I'm all ears, but what I'm really looking for is automatic payout threshold, customizable workers, > 1 Thash/sec.  I'm just not very sure how to proceed here, I've spent a lot of time trying to make the rigs work on different servers and it seems BTCmine is the only one that they consistently work on and gives most of the features I'm looking for.

On a brighter note, we do have 13 rigs mining right now, I'm not sure what the hashrate is because bitcoins.lc is giving some really strange numbers that I know can't be right (less than what we were mining on BTCmine) but I would estimate we're around 11.8-12.2 Ghash/sec.

I'll be putting up those motions mentioned earlier tomorrow, hopefully voting is fixed!

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July 02, 2011, 09:30:35 AM
 #440

Why don't you try out new pools without disconnecting from the current one ? I've tried that and it works well for both windows and linux miners (using rpcminer-cuda and phoenix for two different rigs). Would at least solve the problem of idle machines if something goes wrong while giving you the same data about reliability of the new pool.
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