Is stealing bitcoins illegal?

[fr4nkthetank]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

You engage with a written or verbal contract to exchange goods, either for money, or goods.

you break that contract, you are subject to being sued in court.

and you will lose.

illegal?  hmmm dont know, maybe criminal code would apply as stealing, but in the very least that's breach of contract under business law and you will get your ass handed to you.

[Dabs]

If your body is never found, you might not be considered dead. But you'll still be missing.

[Walter Rothbard]

The question I like to turn to is: who should bear the costs of law enforcement and prosecution.

If I am victimized by a scammer, are my neighbors obligated to pay the costs of investigating the crime, locating and apprehending the culprit, prosecuting, and then incarcerating him?  If so, does this mean that I have less incentive to protect my Bitcoin and to investigate those I have financial dealings with?  What if all the costs involved add up to more than the value involved - who should decide whether we call it quits on the investigation or not?

Is socialism really a fair way to handle this?

Is there a magic lamp we can rub that will bring forth a genie that will right all wrongs and triumph over evil?

[Eisenhower34]

If someone is stupid enough to send me a large amount of bitcoins without escrow then I think they don't deserve their bitcoin anyway.

Correct me If I'm wrong, but you could just tumble the coins?

Ok, if your family is stupid enough to send you a large amount of bitcoins without escrow then they don't deserve their bitcoin anyway. Right?

Tumbling makes them difficult to track, but not impossible.

Tumble them two or even three times and completely anonymize them and then just cash out, that would work well

It does not matter how many times you tumble stolen bitcoin, each additional time you tumble them will give you a very small incremental level of anonymity.

Regardless, your victim tracing the path of the bitcoin is not the most likely way you will get caught. You will likely get caught by various methods that you had communicated with him prior to him sending the now stolen bitcoin

[crazy-pilot]

The question I like to turn to is: who should bear the costs of law enforcement and prosecution.

If I am victimized by a scammer, are my neighbors obligated to pay the costs of investigating the crime, locating and apprehending the culprit, prosecuting, and then incarcerating him?  If so, does this mean that I have less incentive to protect my Bitcoin and to investigate those I have financial dealings with?  What if all the costs involved add up to more than the value involved - who should decide whether we call it quits on the investigation or not?

Is socialism really a fair way to handle this?

Is there a magic lamp we can rub that will bring forth a genie that will right all wrongs and triumph over evil?

The government should bear these costs. It is generally considered that a crime is considered a crime against society as even though someone stole from one person they could easily steal from several others in the future if they are not punished

[Walter Rothbard]

The question I like to turn to is: who should bear the costs of law enforcement and prosecution.

If I am victimized by a scammer, are my neighbors obligated to pay the costs of investigating the crime, locating and apprehending the culprit, prosecuting, and then incarcerating him?  If so, does this mean that I have less incentive to protect my Bitcoin and to investigate those I have financial dealings with?  What if all the costs involved add up to more than the value involved - who should decide whether we call it quits on the investigation or not?

Is socialism really a fair way to handle this?

Is there a magic lamp we can rub that will bring forth a genie that will right all wrongs and triumph over evil?

The government should bear these costs. It is generally considered that a crime is considered a crime against society as even though someone stole from one person they could easily steal from several others in the future if they are not punished

The magic genie, and less incentive to protect oneself up front, then.

[tss]

maybe it's not stealing but it would be some kind of fraud

[BBmmBB]

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

And that kids, is why we use ESCROW when dealing with complete strangers.

wrong...thats WHY YOU DO NOT CONDUCT BUSINESS WITH COMPLETE STRANGERS!!! 

[johnyj]

In fact there is no sure way to collect evidence of such crime, so you might get away with it. And if you are big enough like MTGOX, then it becomes legal

[h4xx0r]

Of course it is illegal. Duh. A theft is a theft whether its a virtual or physical good.

The problem is that it can be very hard to prove who did it. The issue you run into is jurisdiciton. Maybe you live in the US but your servers were in europe, so local cyber unit can't help you. Maybe the hacker was from china, so again the problem is jurisidiction. if they are able to identify the hacker, they can get an warrant for him through interpol, as you saw recently the US brought charges against chinese intelligence officers for hacking american computer systems.

So, you can go to the cops, but most of them are ill equipped to handle it, and the ones who are probably won't do much other than file a report unless it was a very large amount. For example, a theft like what happened at mt.gox, you gotta think that there is a global effort to identify the purp (or purps). Most likely someone like the FBI is investigating it. The high profile cases will get investigated, while the small cases will mostly be ignored.

[Zer0Sum]

maybe it's not stealing but it would be some kind of fraud

Since the IRS has defined BTC as "property"...
Yes, it is stealing... and stealing a large amount of Crypto is Grand Larceny... and jail time.

The problem is that most thefts:

(a)  cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt

(b)  are claimed to be a "hack"

(c)  are structured as "bad investments"...
Like the mcxNOW $5 million Grand Larceny in 2013 by RealSolid.

For example...
The NXT AE has about $20,000,000 or more in "asset bubbles"...
Backed by nothing more than the promise to develop some software...
Not unlike 1000 Silicon Valley startups.

It's extremely likely these "assets" are deliberately structured as a "bad investment"...
Where eventually the SuperNet people will pay off 25%... and make off with the rest.

LIFE RULE #1

If anyone says:

"I have enough money" or "I'm doing it for the community/love/tech"... they are lying.

[s1lverbox]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

Don't matter what you playing with. Cash, car, currency. If you mislead someone and someone can prove that this is illegal.

[LiteCoinGuy]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

lol no. its legal of course. 

[franky1]

No, I just want to see if this is true. Because if it is, then the illegality of stealing bitcoins wouldn't even matter in retrospect. If you can simply anonymize your connection and not have anything linked back to you.

thats like saying:
if killing someone without witnesses or evidence makes killing them ok.. then you really need to see someone about them.

hurting anyone or causing anyone a loss, whether its death, financial or other is wrong and under common law unlawful... getting caught and or punished for it is a different story.

[seriouscoin]

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

I think you're try to plan to steal BTC of something else with monetary value; so, I shall stop giving you legal help to avoid being held responsible of aiding someone to commit a crime.
Go earn legit BTC instead of trying to learn to be a scammer & thief.

No, I just want to see if this is true. Because if it is, then the illegality of stealing bitcoins wouldn't even matter in retrospect. If you can simply anonymize your connection and not have anything linked back to you.

What kind of dumb shit are you?

If i come into your house, rape your mom, make you literally lick her shit off my dick and take all valuable goods, then leave without my trace of identity (i wear a mask ok? ). It doesnt matter what i did was a crime or not right? Because police cant prove its me that do it right?

DUMB fck were your mom gangbanged while carrying you?

[teukon]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

Yeah, this is fraud which is illegal in the US.

If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

Pretty much, yes.  Depending on the amount you may find it difficult to hide yourself adequately but the tools exist.

No, I just want to see if this is true. Because if it is, then the illegality of stealing bitcoins wouldn't even matter in retrospect. If you can simply anonymize your connection and not have anything linked back to you.

No, the legality still matters.  The presence of the law causes both the thief and law enforcement to expend more resources.

[bigasic]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

I hope your kidding. If your not trolling and its an honest question, then I really am scared for society. its called fraud at the very least and theft at best.. You have to be trolling...

[moriartybitcoin]

its called fraud ie theft

[smoothie]

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

A crime is a crime, be there evidence or not.

So the answer is yes.

"Is stealing ______ illegal?"


Seriously?

lol

I guess stealing anything that someone considers to have value is illegal. I'm pretty sure if you were stealing dog turds from someone's yard it wouldn't really be stealing as no one likely would see any value in dog shit.

[teukon]

The question I like to turn to is: who should bear the costs of law enforcement and prosecution.

Good question.  Off the top of my head: I feel some form of insurance would be in order.

If I am victimized by a scammer, are my neighbors obligated to pay the costs of investigating the crime, locating and apprehending the culprit, prosecuting, and then incarcerating him?

Legally obligated? In almost all jurisdictions: yes, where "neighbour" is suitably broad.
Morally obligated? Not in my opinion although I suspect I'm in the minority.

If so, does this mean that I have less incentive to protect my Bitcoin and to investigate those I have financial dealings with?  What if all the costs involved add up to more than the value involved - who should decide whether we call it quits on the investigation or not?

Ah!  That's a rather ugly nest of moral hazards.

Is socialism really a fair way to handle this?

Highly subjective.  A yes (resp. no) answer almost defines one as being a collectivist (resp. individualist).

Is there a magic lamp we can rub that will bring forth a genie that will right all wrongs and triumph over evil?

Does wiping out all sentient life on Earth count?  If not then probably "no".