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Author Topic: why do people agree to pay taxes?  (Read 50966 times)
picolo
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January 02, 2015, 10:48:20 PM
 #541

You are using an established system. Everyone uses the government's system in one way or another. So you have to pay for that in a way.
Right. It would not be fair for the government to provide you with something and for you to not have to pay for it

Well,government build many infrastructure,so the people can use it
I think it's pretty normal for us to pay taxes

We don't need the government to provide a service that will end up being of poor quality and high price
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Nicolas Dorier
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January 03, 2015, 08:37:50 AM
 #542

Quote
Libertarianism is a vague, umbrella term for a slew of ideas, most of them focusing on things Libertarians are against, rather than for.  Only one thing could be said about Libertarianism objectively:  No libertarian societies exist today or have ever existed...

Well, it it less vague than the statist part. Read Rothbard he is terrific to my opinion.
Libertarian societies existed in the past and Rothbard gives example of it.

Celtic Ireland until the seventeenth century (more than thousand of year of libertarianism), the beginning of United Start (the influence of the state was negligible at the start)
For the private court, there was the Romans, also Anglo Saxon law was developed by competing judge, not by state decree. (ref "the law and the courts" in "For a New liberty" of Rothbard)

The concept of supreme court were judged are appointed by state is the anomaly of history. Not the other way around.

Private arbitration between 1900 and 1920 were the main way were business settled dispute in the middle age and down to 1920. Enforcement relied on consent or ostracism and boycott.

Quote
Libertarians appropriate many important thinkers like Proudhon, who believed that property was theft,
Libertarianism without private property is NOT libertarianism. The first principle of libertarian is Non Aggression Principle.
Before we can decide what is considered Aggression, you need the concept of property.
Anarchist than don't want the concept of property are closer to communism than libertarians. (Marxist communism consider state ownership an issue. But it seems this forms always tended to state ownership)

I would say that Marxists are nearer from libertarians than we are from statists. But without individual property, the wealth will always tend to accumulate in the hand of those with political power, which is why I believe it did not work.

Quote
...thus limiting libertarianism debates to teh purely theoretical, hypothetical realm.
Both Christianity and Communism are great in theory.
As I said, there are many case of libertarianism in history.
Nowadays dark net is a living proof that commerce without force enforcement is still possible.
School is even worse. The worse it is the costlier it becomes. A kid with internet would kick his teacher ass quick. (to which I point to http://www.ted.com/talks/sugata_mitra_shows_how_kids_teach_themselves?language=en)
And to my experience as teacher/trainer myself.

The cost/benefit of government services is not worth it, and make everybody poorer by force. (which is why I am against taxation, since protest, nor breaking the law will help, I'll just find my way for subsidy to fall in the right pocket)
If it appears like religion, it is more because we can't make justice the the work of hayek, mises and rothbard in a forum post. However I like to see if their point can be discussed, and I have not seen it yet, except with the argument "it does not exist anymore, so it does not work".

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January 03, 2015, 12:36:52 PM
 #543

>libertarianism better defined than statism
Because statism is not an ideology. 

>Ireland til 1970 was libertarian
No, you're just trolling.  Educate yourself:
800–1169 covers the period in the history of Ireland from the first Viking raids to the Norman invasion.
1169–1536 covers the period from the arrival of the Cambro-Normans to the reign of Henry VIII of England, who made himself King of Ireland.
1536–1691 saw the first full conquest of the island by England and its colonisation with Protestant settlers from Britain. This established two central themes in future Irish history – subordination of the country to London based governments

>the beginning of United Start [sic]
British colony until federal republic.  Amazing ignorance.

>supreme court is a historical anomaly
Sure is.  The word of the king/sultan/fearless leader being the highest law is far more common. 

>Private arbitration between 1900 and 1920 were the main way were business settled dispute in the middle age and down to 1920.[sic]

Wat 

>Libertarianism without private property is NOT libertarianism.

Learn to libertarianism.  From the FAQ on wikip libertarianism "talk" page:



If you're trolling, gg, you got me.  If not:  Mankind, I'm disappoint Sad
Nicolas Dorier
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January 03, 2015, 05:59:56 PM
 #544

Your diagram remind me how the term "liberal" was hijacked with time... which is why we are using the term libertarian. There is no "left or right", either you believe in NAP and that monopoly of violence should not be handled over to a central authority, either you don't. There is simple clear cut.

Marxist communist is not libertarianism. (even if they share the belief of no powerful central authority)
My definition in your circle is the "right libertarian" one but I do not recognize the hijacked categorization of the other movements.

So here is my source : http://mises.org/sites/default/files/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Manifesto_3.pdf, page 275 to 290.

In case you are lazy to read his point here are some extract.
Regarding Celting Ireland and the king :

Quote
The king was elected by the tuath from within a royal kin-group (the derbfine), which carried the hereditary priestly function. Politically , however, the king had strictly limited functions: he was the military leader of the tuath, and he presided over the tuath assemblies. But he could only conduct war or peace negotiations as agent of the assemblies; and he was in no sense sovereign and had no rights of administering justice over tuath members.
[...]
He could not legislate, and when he himslef was party to a lawsuit, he had to submit his case to an independant judicial arbitrer.

Regarding 1900 in the US :

Quote
By 1900, voluntary arbitration began to take hold in the United States. In fact, in medieval England, the entire structure of merchant law, which was handled clumsily and inefficiently by the government’s courts, grew up in private merchants’ courts. The merchants’ courts were purely voluntary arbitrators, and the decisions were not legally binding. How, then, were they successful?

The answer is that the merchants, in the Middle Ages and down to 1920, relied solely on ostracism and boycott by the other merchants in the area.

More recently :

Quote
In modern times, ostracism became even more effective, and it included the knowledge that anyone who ignored an arbitrator’s award could never again avail himself of an arbitrator’s services. Industrialist Owen D. Young, head of General Electric, concluded that the moral censure of other businessmen was a far more effective sanction than legal enforcement. Nowadays, modern technology, computers, and credit ratings would make such nationwide ostracism even more effective than it has ever been in the past.

God thanks my taxes pays a judicial system, how society would work without them ?! This is the response. (he goes deeper on other kind of dispute than commercial one, so take the time to read the book)

So take the time to read those 15 pages. It is not because there is central authority that they hold justice power in their hand.

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January 03, 2015, 07:37:17 PM
 #545

^
>Your diagram
Not my diagram.  It is Wikipedia's diagram.  It is a part of the FAQ created to avoid arguments about shit that has been discussed to death, like the one we're having now.  It's a sad fact that you've managed to remain this ignorant with the entire interwebs' worth of knowledge at your fingertips Sad

>mises.org
There's your problem right there.  That's where crazy goes to lay eggs.  You might as well learn history from stormfront.org.
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January 05, 2015, 05:24:44 AM
 #546

lol I liked the mises lecture on the Roman empire and how undermining their own currency with debasement brought about the fall into ruin of many essential parts of Roman society such as citizenship.  In the end the cost of their government was so great, people were better off having their town fall under the 'savages' control then continue to have to pay a majority of their worth not just income to the centrally biased sections of the empire.
    Seemed fair point and comparable to today not hype as we can trace the falling currency value of the actual coin metal percentage

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freebit13
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January 05, 2015, 06:02:15 PM
 #547

John Gatto explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxCuc-2tfgk

The only reason for school is to program future behavior to authority...

Decentralize EVERYTHING!
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January 05, 2015, 06:07:00 PM
 #548

John Gatto explains it perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxCuc-2tfgk

The only reason for school is to program future behavior to authority...

There might be other reasons, but don't let that distract you from huffing gas, whining about taxes & losing money in Bitcoin.
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January 05, 2015, 06:27:22 PM
 #549

^^^ You have no clue, I have not lost a single cent in bitcoin... I'm still doing very well thanks... perhaps you should actually watch the video and you'll realize that he really does know what he's talking about!

Decentralize EVERYTHING!
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January 05, 2015, 07:35:59 PM
 #550

>thinks education = brainwashing
>calls people clueless

That gas u huffed instead of getting brainwashed in school?  Guess u were 2 cheap to buy unleaded Cheesy
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January 05, 2015, 09:19:21 PM
 #551

lol I liked the mises lecture on the Roman empire and how undermining their own currency with debasement brought about the fall into ruin of many essential parts of Roman society such as citizenship.  In the end the cost of their government was so great, people were better off having their town fall under the 'savages' control then continue to have to pay a majority of their worth not just income to the centrally biased sections of the empire.
    Seemed fair point and comparable to today not hype as we can trace the falling currency value of the actual coin metal percentage

The same can be said to all countries rule by a huge State.
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January 06, 2015, 01:58:50 AM
 #552

Capitalism has the value of the currency distributed among the people.   We have a breakdown now with government dominating commerce and also the debasement of currency and this is done centrally.  Formerly USA was a demonstration of how a massive country could be productive with fair laws so I wont agree its always the case.  Sadly its become that power is centralised and people are no longer the owners and producers but functions of the state

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January 06, 2015, 02:49:03 AM
 #553

We should develop...a tool. "The Peoples Network of the United States". Some sort of system every verified American citizen can join and be apart of. To vote collectively and collaborate with eachother. Develop an app around that idea.

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January 06, 2015, 03:23:06 AM
 #554

We should develop...a tool. "The Peoples Network of the United States". Some sort of system every verified American citizen can join and be apart of. To vote collectively and collaborate with eachother. Develop an app around that idea.
Yeah. And we should write a Declaration of Independence for that collaboration. Then we can write a Constitution delineating our responsibilities to our collective arrangement. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 06, 2015, 10:49:11 AM
 #555

We should develop...a tool. "The Peoples Network of the United States". Some sort of system every verified American citizen can join and be apart of. To vote collectively and collaborate with eachother. Develop an app around that idea.

We should push for less taxes and smaller government.
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January 06, 2015, 01:12:20 PM
 #556


Learn to libertarianism.  From the FAQ on wikip libertarianism "talk" page:




I'm a minarchist then.
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January 06, 2015, 02:18:16 PM
 #557

...
I'm a minarchist then.


I am an antichrist
I am a minarchist!



Coz I
Wanna beeeeee E
Minarchy!
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January 06, 2015, 03:21:42 PM
 #558

People agree to pay taxes but as the taxes go up in the US and Europe, they agree less to pay and try to illegally avoid to pay taxes.
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January 06, 2015, 03:50:45 PM
 #559

...
I'm a minarchist then.


I am an antichrist
I am a minarchist!



Coz I
Wanna beeeeee E
Minarchy!


How did you get hold of my picture, bastard ? :-)
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January 06, 2015, 04:04:18 PM
 #560

...
I'm a minarchist then.


I am an antichrist
I am a minarchist!



Coz I
Wanna beeeeee E
Minarchy!


How did you get hold of my picture, bastard ? :-)


I got some from your younger days, too.  You aged well Smiley

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