**PUBLIC ALERT** Change with process of "mining" BTC or it WILL fail.

[Velkro]

Don't worry, miners whatever they are (big companies or not) will care about bitcoin price because on that their earnings depends

[sublime5447]

pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties. 

I would never put a penny into some old boy network coin. They are worthless to me. The fact that anyone can compete for coins makes senses and is fair. Issuing coins is one of the big problems in monetary systems that bitcoin solves.

Such hypocritical bullshit spews out of bitcoin zealots mouth.. Let me dumb it down for you.. bitcoin's networks is a good old boys network now. That is what this thread is about. Everyone can not participate or compete.   

[sublime5447]

Back when BTC was truly decentralized -- everyday users mining on any old PC -- this was a great selling point to get people on board with this type of currency. Everyone that had Bitcoin on the network was help keeping this going, but nope -- with the current METHOD used for mining has only one future, and that is eventually ending up with a few huge mining companies.

While the idea that at least several companies around the world would be mining/maintaining the network sounds okay, I still think that is very bad for Bitcoin, but that is exactly where the future for us is headed. You even have the hardware companies deciding they rather mine instead of sell to individuals.  Something needs to be changed to give THE PEOPLE back power, which was the whole point of Bitcoin.. At this point every single day Bitcoin becomes less and less for the people..

-Sqw33sh

7 pages already for this BS topic? Back when BTC was "truly decentralized" someone with a couple thousand $ could disrupt your decentralized network. It's not that hard...So what's the purpose of this topic again? For you to get rich from mining?

The point is people shouldn't make money or get rich from mining, as that obviously leads to centralization. (just my OPINION - Holiday relax)

Man I like this guy.. You got it bro. It is the financial incentive in controlling the network that will insure that it will be controlled. It is a consequence of the scarcity model for currency.

Miners don't control the network. They receive bitcoins for securing the network and including transactions in blocks. Some of us value those bitcoins because of their properties. We are willing to trade other things of value for those bitcoins. If miners try to change the properties of bitcoin without the support of the economic majority, they will soon find themselves mining worthless forked coins. We will no longer trade things of value for the coins on their fork.

 

[kokojie]

I legitimately want a fork of Bitcoin. I want to see direct competition between proof of work and proof of whatever (everything else remaining the same). Then, should my assumptions hold true, I will be able to refer to the failed proof of whatever fork whenever someone makes a new we-need-to-change-Bitcoin-now-or-it-will-die thread. If I'm wrong, I will happily eat crow.

Plus, I would get to be part of the experiment. As a current holder, I will be able to do my part and vote for the chain of my choice by selling my new proof of whatever coins in the hopes of buying more actual bitcoins with the proceeds.

I've been waiting for this to happen for a few years now. All we get are new threads.

That would work, only if the Bitcoin core developers endorse both chains and promise to give equal development attention to both. THEN we'll see which chain will win. Otherwise your proposal won't work, since current Bitcoin stakeholders will naturally choose the chain that has core developer endorsement and active development support.

[S.Boxx]

Back when BTC was truly decentralized -- everyday users mining on any old PC -- this was a great selling point to get people on board with this type of currency. Everyone that had Bitcoin on the network was help keeping this going, but nope -- with the current METHOD used for mining has only one future, and that is eventually ending up with a few huge mining companies.

While the idea that at least several companies around the world would be mining/maintaining the network sounds okay, I still think that is very bad for Bitcoin, but that is exactly where the future for us is headed. You even have the hardware companies deciding they rather mine instead of sell to individuals.  Something needs to be changed to give THE PEOPLE back power, which was the whole point of Bitcoin.. At this point every single day Bitcoin becomes less and less for the people..

-Sqw33sh

People are working on these things.....three very good solutions:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=281180.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN2TPeQ9mnA

https://bitcoinfoundation.org/2014/07/mining-decentralisation-the-low-hanging-fruit/

[ANTIcentralized]

Finally, if you are so convinced that PoW is the end of Bitcoin, let us know what the alternative is. If it is PoS, well... PoS already exists, so just go use that instead of trying to change something that some of us think is working just fine. I've also advocated for a PoS fork of Bitcoin itself. I would love to see it compete head to head with the original PoW.

I always assumed that was a sarcastic thought experiment where you get to double your holdings (of PoW Bitcoin).

I legitimately want a fork of Bitcoin. I want to see direct competition between proof of work and proof of whatever (everything else remaining the same). Then, should my assumptions hold true, I will be able to refer to the failed proof of whatever fork whenever someone makes a new we-need-to-change-Bitcoin-now-or-it-will-die thread. If I'm wrong, I will happily eat crow.

Plus, I would get to be part of the experiment. As a current holder, I will be able to do my part and vote for the chain of my choice by selling my new proof of whatever coins in the hopes of buying more actual bitcoins with the proceeds.

I've been waiting for this to happen for a few years now. All we get are new threads.

More or less all altcoins are a fork of bitcoin (although they may not use the same blockchain, they are really still a fork). You can look at the success (or lack thereof) of the proof of shit (PoS) and can see that PoW is superior

[TheTribesman]

Conversation:

Person A: "Wow, look, that bird's flying really high up"
Person B: "What is the alternative to the bird flying high up? Tell me the alternative, or shut up about birds flying high up"
Person A: "Huh?"

 

[TheTribesman]

Conversation:

Person A: "Wow, look, that bird's flying really high up"
Person B: "What is the alternative to the bird flying high up? Tell me the alternative, or shut up about birds flying high up"
Person A: "Huh?"

 

Conversation:

Person A: If we don't do something to change the way that bird is flying, it will die.
Person B: People have suggested this before, do you have any evidence that it will die? What exactly do you propose?
Person A: What is wrong with you? That bird is flying wrong. It's clearly going to die.
Person B: I'm confused, how it is flying wrong? What should we do to correct it?
Person A: Just stop posting. Clearly you are an evangelist for birds flying the wrong way.
Person B: You aren't providing us with any useful information here.
Person A: We are discussing how that bird is flying the wrong way and how it's going to die! Clearly you advocate birds flying the wrong way!
Person B: Is everyone crazy?
Person C: We are only having a discussion here.
Person B: Yeah, but no one is actually discussing any of the points that have been made countless times in the past.
Person C: So, you don't think we should be allowed to discuss this?
Person B: Well... you aren't saying anything...
Person C: Obviously you think we shouldn't be discussing this.
Person B: I thought that's what I was doing when I was pointing out the fact that you aren't saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times before.
Person C: Everything is different now! These birds flying the wrong way are going to die!
Person B: What should we do?
Person C: Discuss it more!
Person A: Pagan nut job bird flying the wrong way lover.
Kokojie: Gavin must force everyone to fork Bitcoin to PoS.
Sublime: We need units! It should be based on a basket of goods. Let me promise to pay you in the future in spare boat parts for your car.
Person B: Yes, everyone is crazy, including me.

LOL! I guess tenacity is a virtue of sorts.

[kresu]

pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties. 

Trusted by whom? You? Me? Who do you trust?

[cr1776]

We know there is a problem and there is nothing we can do to fix it. From here either abandon ship and move to altcoins that address this issue or live on with it. Sadly that is the *fact*

You think there is a problem and there have been no suggestions in this thread on what to do to fix this supposed problem.  FTFY.

If POW is an issue (and many people who know the code would strongly disagree), what is the option?  PoS?  The problems with PoS are well documented.

[cr1776]

The point is people shouldn't make money or get rich from mining, as that obviously leads to centralization. (just my OPINION - Holiday relax)

The TXFEE's should be based on a PERCENTAGE not a FIXED amount -- that is one of the biggest flaws IMHO that Satoshi missed :p

Fix that and then reward miners with TXfees only (which is eventually the end game)

"Miners are the guardians of the public trust" and absolutely deserve some compensatation for their service

-dvd

Miners can pick the fees and include transactions in blocks based on their own criteria.  Free transactions are includable by some miners.  Anyone can include any transaction in a block whether it includes a fee or not.  If some thinks that people should not "make money" from mining, mine (or create a pool) that only includes free transactions.  No one is stopping you, you just have to convince others to join you or buy enough hash power to do so yourself.  If that is not palatable to you, why do you think it would be palatable to others?

Without any incentive (e.g. to make money) to mine, who will mine?  If no one mines, what happens to the network?

The solution here is if you think something is broken, grab the code, fork it, and fix it.  Then see if others agree with you.  Discussing it here does absolutely nothing to fix these (supposed) flaws. 

Miners and pools can use fixed fees, percentage fees or whatever criteria they want.  That is the beauty of bitcoin, Satoshi doesn't fix fees, bitcoin core doesn't fix fees - anyone can set fees themselves, just grab the code and do it how you think it should be done, create a pool and get people who agree to join you.

[cr1776]

pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties. 

Trusted by whom? You? Me? Who do you trust?

Exactly.  Some of the people of Venezuela trusted Chavez.  I certainly did not.  Many trusted Hitler, many did not.  Many trusted Mao, many certainly did not.  Many trusted Clinton or Bush etc.  Who do you trust?  Why do you think that everyone has to agree to trust a single person or party?

Bitcoin avoids the need to trust anyone except the code and the math.  That is its virtue.

[cr1776]

I legitimately want a fork of Bitcoin. I want to see direct competition between proof of work and proof of whatever (everything else remaining the same). Then, should my assumptions hold true, I will be able to refer to the failed proof of whatever fork whenever someone makes a new we-need-to-change-Bitcoin-now-or-it-will-die thread. If I'm wrong, I will happily eat crow.

Plus, I would get to be part of the experiment. As a current holder, I will be able to do my part and vote for the chain of my choice by selling my new proof of whatever coins in the hopes of buying more actual bitcoins with the proceeds.

I've been waiting for this to happen for a few years now. All we get are new threads.

That would work, only if the Bitcoin core developers endorse both chains and promise to give equal development attention to both. THEN we'll see which chain will win. Otherwise your proposal won't work, since current Bitcoin stakeholders will naturally choose the chain that has core developer endorsement and active development support.

All you have to do is fork the code, fork the blockchain and go from there.   Swap out the PoW code with PoS code, keeping it modular and you can piggyback on the Bitcoin Core updates.  (Look at the "no-forced fee version of Bitcoin core" for an example of that).

You aren't going to convince many (if any) of the "core developers" to switch to PoS when they have documented and discussed (publicly if you have been reading) the problems with it.  It is incumbent upon the people/person who is saying there is a problem with PoW to (a) propose a solution and (b) implement the solution instead of trying to set conditions on people who are free to code as they want.

If you throw the forked code and forked blockchain out there and can't convince people it is better, that isn't a problem with lack of support from developers, it is likely a problem with the model.

[cr1776]

Conversation:

Person A: "Wow, look, that bird's flying really high up"
Person B: "What is the alternative to the bird flying high up? Tell me the alternative, or shut up about birds flying high up"
Person A: "Huh?"

 

Conversation:

Person A: If we don't do something to change the way that bird is flying, it will die.
Person B: People have suggested this before, do you have any evidence that it will die? What exactly do you propose?
Person A: What is wrong with you? That bird is flying wrong. It's clearly going to die.
Person B: I'm confused, how it is flying wrong? What should we do to correct it?
Person A: Just stop posting. Clearly you are an evangelist for birds flying the wrong way.
Person B: You aren't providing us with any useful information here.
Person A: We are discussing how that bird is flying the wrong way and how it's going to die! Clearly you advocate birds flying the wrong way!
Person B: Is everyone crazy?
Person C: We are only having a discussion here.
Person B: Yeah, but no one is actually discussing any of the points that have been made countless times in the past.
Person C: So, you don't think we should be allowed to discuss this?
Person B: Well... you aren't saying anything...
Person C: Obviously you think we shouldn't be discussing this.
Person B: I thought that's what I was doing when I was pointing out the fact that you aren't saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times before.
Person C: Everything is different now! These birds flying the wrong way are going to die!
Person B: What should we do?
Person C: Discuss it more!
Person A: Pagan nut job bird flying the wrong way lover.
Kokojie: Gavin must force everyone to fork Bitcoin to PoS.
Sublime: We need units! It should be based on a basket of goods. Let me promise to pay you in the future in spare boat parts for your car.
Person B: Yes, everyone is crazy, including me.

Holliday is right.  If you can't clearly specify the problem, clearly specify how the problem is different from what has been discussed numerous times already, and clearly specify the proposed solution, no developer is going to even listen to what you have to say.  At worst you should specify some pseudo code if you can't actually code.  When people say "fork the code" or be specific this is an invitation to be specific and put your time where your mouth is instead of expecting others to do so for you.

You can say "the core developers need to do X (something vague)" and you will be completely ignored without specificity as above.  No one wants to waste time re-arguing a point that has been discussed merely because someone new has brought it up.

[Buffer Overflow]

Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties. 

Perhaps you should stick with your existing legacy fiat system if you want that.

[masyveonk]

with the current METHOD used for mining has only one future, and that is eventually ending up with a few huge mining companies.

The mining competetion leads toward most effective way to mine. How can these huge mining companies compete with small users having free electricity like me 

Yes I use electricity to heat my room in winter anyway so if the miner is silent and reliable I can use it to generate heat.

[TR8888]

An Altcoin like or similar to Darkcoin will gradually overtake BTC in terms of use-ability and popularity.

Your SHA256 gear will become (even more) worthless 

[RodeoX]

pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties. 

I would never put a penny into some old boy network coin. They are worthless to me. The fact that anyone can compete for coins makes senses and is fair. Issuing coins is one of the big problems in monetary systems that bitcoin solves.

Such hypocritical bullshit spews out of bitcoin zealots mouth.. Let me dumb it down for you.. bitcoin's networks is a good old boys network now. That is what this thread is about. Everyone can not participate or compete.   

So who are the lucky people who will receive your coins? Am I going to get some? Or am I suposed to buy them from your friends?

[cbeast]

An Altcoin like or similar to Darkcoin will gradually overtake BTC in terms of use-ability and popularity.

Your SHA256 gear will become (even more) worthless 

More likely a "Green Address" Coin will replace Bitcoin. Every address must be officially registered and tracked.

[Keyser Soze]

Conversation:

Person A: If we don't do something to change the way that bird is flying, it will die.
Person B: People have suggested this before, do you have any evidence that it will die? What exactly do you propose?
Person A: What is wrong with you? That bird is flying wrong. It's clearly going to die.
Person B: I'm confused, how it is flying wrong? What should we do to correct it?
Person A: Just stop posting. Clearly you are an evangelist for birds flying the wrong way.
Person B: You aren't providing us with any useful information here.
Person A: We are discussing how that bird is flying the wrong way and how it's going to die! Clearly you advocate birds flying the wrong way!
Person B: Is everyone crazy?
Person C: We are only having a discussion here.
Person B: Yeah, but no one is actually discussing any of the points that have been made countless times in the past.
Person C: So, you don't think we should be allowed to discuss this?
Person B: Well... you aren't saying anything...
Person C: Obviously you think we shouldn't be discussing this.
Person B: I thought that's what I was doing when I was pointing out the fact that you aren't saying anything that hasn't been said a thousand times before.
Person C: Everything is different now! These birds flying the wrong way are going to die!
Person B: What should we do?
Person C: Discuss it more!
Person A: Pagan nut job bird flying the wrong way lover.
Kokojie: Gavin must force everyone to fork Bitcoin to PoS.
Sublime: We need units! It should be based on a basket of goods. Let me promise to pay you in the future in spare boat parts for your car.
Person B: Yes, everyone is crazy, including me.

Funny, I was thinking pretty much the same thing reading the thread.