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Author Topic: why I think cryptocurrency market is a fake  (Read 5967 times)
sidhujag
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November 11, 2014, 06:11:11 PM
 #61

No they cannot stop the tech.. u didnt get it. Sure u can choose what tokens u want ppl to pay taxes off with but u cant stop all forms of exchange between the tokens.

yes, yes, I agree, they cannot stop the tech, but we cannot stop the politics by waiting it just happens

actually i am afraid they are very happy that we do tech

Who knows if the currency will work.. maybe China is secretly stashing so one day they will have i as a backup plan that if US doesn't man up and pay bonds and/or gold that is owed to China then they will turn around make a gold backed or bitcoin backed currency that other nations will have no choice but to accept by association. We don't know what these guys are thinking... and whatever you seem to think is usually wrong because they will never go public with that info.

The tech will be disruptive enough... i.e.: a silkroad that cannot be closed for example.. or a truth prediction market that finds answers better than seeking professionals.. disrupting all sorts of industries and professionals that took it easy for way too long. A exchange marketplace which takes over e-commerce on the internet (bitshares) without having to pay enormous currency exchange and other fees to the monopoly credit card companies. It's definitely going to challenge some of the big players who I bet thought there would never be any challengers.

Since bitcoin can't actually be shutdown it will strengthen the resolve of investors of bitcoin each time a disruption takes place. Since there are only 21 million coins and billions of people bitcoin doesn't have to be "accepted" by thepowers to be to be worth alot more than it is today.

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November 11, 2014, 06:32:45 PM
 #62

I have read this entire thread (sans links) and I'm happy to report that, for myself, ignorance remains blissful.

Feed the poor. Eat the rich. (watch how fast man will divest himself of his fiat when he see's the
masses coming forward with forks and knives)

May all hatred cease and let there be peace!
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November 11, 2014, 06:44:57 PM
 #63

The tech will be disruptive enough...

I provide you a rationale about why I think we need more that succeeding with technology to make a technologically driven society.

I think you are in wrong paradigm. You are assuming that the dispute is between the, say, "elites" and the citizens. This is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Society is composed by 2 kind of people: rational people and emotional people. There are issues in the brain evolution that makes so. Rational people use to be individualist and emotional people use to be collectivist. Collectivist people always will advocate for government protection.

So the actual paradigm is not elites vs citizens but individualism vs collectivism. The fact is, if you look around in any society the number of collectivists is always higher than the number of individualists. Women are collectivists and counts half of population, gays, as emotional people, use to be also collectivists and are 10% of population. Lots of men are also collectivists. So, at the final, individualist people is a minority.

What this means? This means that, (in democracy) you always will have government.

The point is, how can individualist people protect themselves from the threat of collectivist people through the government? With the monetary architecture: by having a national currency being equal to the governments currency or having a national currency coupled to gold. In the USA, you enjoyed gold standard from 1944 to 1971 and was the period of higher progress on (recent?) history.

This chart represents the velocity of money in the USA:

http://acrossthestreetnet.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/velocity.png?w=604&h=362

Look how the velocity grown from 1944 to about 1980, a few years after quitting gold standard (1971) by inertia. After 1980, just a couple of more bubbles (2000 and 2008) and finally the 2008 collapse at level of Great Recession. I think velocity of money is a good representation of real economy (no financial economy).

So, in my opinion, individualist people needs a national currency backed on gold, to get protected against governments, representing the collectivist people, and under this umbrella, THEN you will have the crypto-driven society. Otherwise governments will be able to use their power to devaluate purchasing power of any other currency (you can read Hayek for it, I think chapter 9. 'Security and Freedom' of 'Road to Serfdom' would give you an idea).

Open to debate.
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November 11, 2014, 07:05:03 PM
 #64

I read somewhere that ALL fiat becomes worthless in time. Who is going to change that constant?
P2P is high tech barter...not necessarily a bad thing. IMO

Just remember to check your poke before you let go of your crypto/fiat/chickens. Time and crime
have no conscience. They both corrupt that which is corruptible. Each to their own nature.  
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November 11, 2014, 07:13:33 PM
 #65

I read somewhere that ALL fiat becomes worthless in time. Who is going to change that constant?

There are many chances that the future governments, after dollar, do not use a fiat currency. Actually, there are many chances of having a gold backed reserve currency. You cannot buy oil to another nation with a fiat currency. What we do not know yet is "its color" (owner) and the transition process.
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November 11, 2014, 07:42:13 PM
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I read somewhere that ALL fiat becomes worthless in time. Who is going to change that constant?

There are many chances that the future governments, after dollar, do not use a fiat currency. Actually, there are many chances of having a gold backed reserve currency. You cannot buy oil to another nation with a fiat currency. What we do not know yet is "its color" and the transition process.

In my blissful mind there is not enough gold and oil to fuel the future of mankind. The proof is in the mechanism of transition and power. War!

If there was money to be made in peace then humanity would have equilibrium of wealth. Save for those who would rise up against peace...for their own gain.

The greatest riches that humanity possess is intelligence. Eventually history will stop repeating itself and progress will be governed with
that evolved intelligence toward a more equal stake for all. Minimized by another constant; that some things are more equal than others. There will always be those who fate favors best when it comes to brains, talent or entertainment value. We all have to take time to find that which makes us think, smile and laugh.    

Again...IMHO
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November 11, 2014, 07:47:50 PM
 #67

In my blissful mind there is not enough gold and oil to fuel the future of mankind. The proof is in the mechanism of transition and power.

the amount of gold does not matter. However, obviously there is a peak oil and peak everything at some point and we are still an oil driven society..... so what will happen at this peak point? No idea. What I am sure is that, at the long term, majority collectivist will always expropriate all inventions to minority individualist and make them public UNLESS we block them with gold standard. Also IMHO.
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November 11, 2014, 08:30:15 PM
 #68

Thanks for your comments. I am afraid of seeing one thing as current society evolves. I am afraid of seeing a new world reserve currency raising anytime soon, maybe backed in gold. I see governments separating people's currencies from government's currency, and cryptocurrencies being the resource of the poor people, those that did not get a chance for a government paid job. So, to properly understand where cryptoworld fits, it is required to understand where the rest is moving to.

For example, are you aware that there are political initiatives which will allow big companies no getting bankrupted anymore? This will be presented in Brisbane in 2 weeks by G-20.....Where does cryptoworld fit here?

OP  - start listening to Lets Talk Bitcoin podcast.  You'll get some insight into the real world of Bitcoin, where people who arent pimply faced teenagers are actually out in the field, innovating and building the infrastructure.  If this was your main source of Bitcoin info, I wouldn't blame you for your skepticism.  Reddit bitcoin is a close second to the podcasts.

-B-

Bitcoin's true purpose defined in Satoshi's message on the Genesis Block:
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
View it on the Blockchain | Genesis Block Newspaper Copies
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November 11, 2014, 08:47:14 PM
 #69

In my blissful mind there is not enough gold and oil to fuel the future of mankind. The proof is in the mechanism of transition and power.

the amount of gold does not matter. However, obviously there is a peak oil and peak everything at some point and we are still an oil driven society..... so what will happen at this peak point? No idea. What I am sure is that, at the long term, majority collectivist will always expropriate all inventions to minority individualist and make them public UNLESS we block them with gold standard. Also IMHO.

Time has proven/built peaks and valleys. Life is peaks and valleys. Nice of you to admit that you don't know where you're going. As do I. I will say farewell to you as you go on your thoughtful meanderings chasing facts and probabilities and gold. The world always has room for thinkers.

Not so much for stinkers. I will go amongst my peaks and valleys of this life. Seeking simple pleasures, remaining blissful of my ignorance. And that of those amongst me with the civility not to point out my failures. But to be enriched by them, help improve on them and I to look upon their failures with that same facility.

Bread is not always on the table. IMO it is better to have charity provide for such lean times. Rather than to seek profit out of misery for that way is but more misery. 

~peace out...in~
sidhujag
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November 11, 2014, 09:51:28 PM
 #70

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

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November 11, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
 #71

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

What hidden agendas are you suspecting here? I guess most people shunning Bitcoin just try to rationalize to themselves how staying out of the game is the right decision. They're afraid to put money in and hope for the ship to go down, so they wouldn't have made a profit if Bitcoin went up big time!

sidhujag
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November 11, 2014, 09:57:07 PM
 #72

The tech will be disruptive enough...

I provide you a rationale about why I think we need more that succeeding with technology to make a technologically driven society.

I think you are in wrong paradigm. You are assuming that the dispute is between the, say, "elites" and the citizens. This is in my opinion a misunderstanding. Society is composed by 2 kind of people: rational people and emotional people. There are issues in the brain evolution that makes so. Rational people use to be individualist and emotional people use to be collectivist. Collectivist people always will advocate for government protection.

So the actual paradigm is not elites vs citizens but individualism vs collectivism. The fact is, if you look around in any society the number of collectivists is always higher than the number of individualists. Women are collectivists and counts half of population, gays, as emotional people, use to be also collectivists and are 10% of population. Lots of men are also collectivists. So, at the final, individualist people is a minority.

What this means? This means that, (in democracy) you always will have government.

The point is, how can individualist people protect themselves from the threat of collectivist people through the government? With the monetary architecture: by having a national currency being equal to the governments currency or having a national currency coupled to gold. In the USA, you enjoyed gold standard from 1944 to 1971 and was the period of higher progress on (recent?) history.

This chart represents the velocity of money in the USA:



Look how the velocity grown from 1944 to about 1980, a few years after quitting gold standard (1971) by inertia. After 1980, just a couple of more bubbles (2000 and 2008) and finally the 2008 collapse at level of Great Recession. I think velocity of money is a good representation of real economy (no financial economy).

So, in my opinion, individualist people needs a national currency backed on gold, to get protected against governments, representing the collectivist people, and under this umbrella, THEN you will have the crypto-driven society. Otherwise governments will be able to use their power to devaluate purchasing power of any other currency (you can read Hayek for it, I think chapter 9. 'Security and Freedom' of 'Road to Serfdom' would give you an idea).

Open to debate.
This is all bs.. velocity of money is the only key driver yes i agree but the way u jumped to conclusions no... gold standard went off cause velocity could not keep up effectively. Bitcoin and cryptos dont have that problem with cost of hw decreasing and network speeds increasing faster than the network affect.

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turvarya
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November 11, 2014, 10:15:18 PM
 #73

Women are collectivists and counts half of population, gays, as emotional people, use to be also collectivists and are 10% of population. Lots of men are also collectivists. So, at the final, individualist people is a minority.
Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.

https://forum.bitcoin.com/
New censorship-free forum by Roger Ver. Try it out.
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November 12, 2014, 03:08:59 AM
 #74

This is getting interesting. Well, I have actually just scratched the surface.

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

you do not need hidden agendas when you have a (hidden) whole body of knowledge as arguments. I came to cryptos as a last opportunity to find a truth market, as I have verified myself that the other 99% is scam. I got disappointed about the no rational strategical arguments behind cryptos (in the functional domain). I have elaborated a rationale exposing why I think is a fake market and I wanted to know how you defend it. Who am I and what I am doing now I told from the first message. No point to repeat, I think. But, if you want hidden agendas, maybe you will find quite a few this weekend in Brisbane.

And, by the way, lets suppose now that I would have any hidden agenda (which I have not). Are you afraid of using rational arguments to defend any position? I think yours is a wrong concern, no matter what is my agenda. Happy to answer any other question.

This is all bs.. velocity of money is the only key driver yes i agree but the way u jumped to conclusions no... gold standard went off cause velocity could not keep up effectively. Bitcoin and cryptos dont have that problem with cost of hw decreasing and network speeds increasing faster than the network affect.

Gold standard was lost because Nixon wanted to fund Vietnam war. Same reason that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, funding a war.

Regarding velocity was not in the core argument. Sorry if I mislead you, it just was a clarification. I agree that one of the beauties of cryptos is that they allow a flexible money supply. But this is again no my claim. I think is better if you re-read and come with another counterargument. I think you misunderstood.

Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.

puf, I suppose you are a female. Well, the direct answer to your question is no. Regarding the fake data, I do not know if we need to discuss that, in current society, there are more emotional people than rational, and that emotional people is (generally) collectivist. No sure if it is issue for this thread. This is enough for my last point. If you want to discuss about sex battle maybe we should open another thread. For me is unclear to what point I should answer you.

sorry if I am not really extending my arguments because your replies does not address mines rationally, IMHO. If someone thinks I have not responded I will be happy in extending. I am afraid we have an emotions/reason debate here and it could take the whole space of the board (and probably would be beyond the board's topics). But again happy to extend.
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November 12, 2014, 03:35:53 AM
 #75

perhaps it is because  cryptocurrency market is not stable now, and lack of regulation.
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November 12, 2014, 03:38:29 AM
 #76

Everything just that we temporarily unable to use cryptocurrency to life

/done/.
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November 12, 2014, 03:40:06 AM
 #77

perhaps it is because  cryptocurrency market is not stable now, and lack of regulation.

This would be solved by a functional analysis of the 'domain' demonstrating validity, is not it? Is there such a paper on the community? Furthermore, does current body of knowledge of economics provides such a foundational framework to build this analysis on top of it? To clarify, my "analysis" is carried out from the opposite school of economics

(By 'domain' I am referring to monetary architectures, not to enterprise service buses).

Off topic: if it does not, where is heading us Brisbane and the like?  Huh
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November 12, 2014, 03:48:43 AM
 #78

Its satoshi first of all and second u wont understand because its like a chess game and bitcoin is 4 steps ahead of u... U need to step back and see trends of decisions by smart ppl

ok, now the arguments please. Other than faith.

Mine are: Asia can create a gold backed reserve currency forcing world governments to do the same, decoupling people's currencies from government's currency. Everybody will want to work for government to get paid in hard currency and cryptos will be the currency of poor people. As long as governments, gold and oil do not disappear, and you do not revolve, cryptos will be the currency of poor people.

Where are your arguments please?


Bitcoin, as is, can only handle up to about 7 transactions per second. As a result, Bitcoin is more likely to become a reserve currency than a currency of "the people".

The reason is that there are many, many poor people, but few banks. If Bitcoin technology takes off within 5 years, poor people will be priced out of the market, while banks will not be.

I have documented how that may happen. Though, I have no formal proof such plans are actually underway.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
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November 12, 2014, 03:58:03 AM
 #79

Bitcoin, as is, can only handle up to about 7 transactions per second. As a result, Bitcoin is more likely to become a reserve currency than a currency of "the people".

7 transactions per second makes a currency eligible for reserve currency? USA just needed to win the WWII to impose dollar....
sidhujag
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November 12, 2014, 04:05:37 AM
 #80

This is getting interesting. Well, I have actually just scratched the surface.

Feeling like another annonymint thread with hidden agendas to me.. anyone else feel it?

you do not need hidden agendas when you have a (hidden) whole body of knowledge as arguments. I came to cryptos as a last opportunity to find a truth market, as I have verified myself that the other 99% is scam. I got disappointed about the no rational strategical arguments behind cryptos (in the functional domain). I have elaborated a rationale exposing why I think is a fake market and I wanted to know how you defend it. Who am I and what I am doing now I told from the first message. No point to repeat, I think. But, if you want hidden agendas, maybe you will find quite a few this weekend in Brisbane.

And, by the way, lets suppose now that I would have any hidden agenda (which I have not). Are you afraid of using rational arguments to defend any position? I think yours is a wrong concern, no matter what is my agenda. Happy to answer any other question.

This is all bs.. velocity of money is the only key driver yes i agree but the way u jumped to conclusions no... gold standard went off cause velocity could not keep up effectively. Bitcoin and cryptos dont have that problem with cost of hw decreasing and network speeds increasing faster than the network affect.

Gold standard was lost because Nixon wanted to fund Vietnam war. Same reason that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913, funding a war.

Regarding velocity was not in the core argument. Sorry if I mislead you, it just was a clarification. I agree that one of the beauties of cryptos is that they allow a flexible money supply. But this is again no my claim. I think is better if you re-read and come with another counterargument. I think you misunderstood.

Are you really putting some stereotypes into that argument? Making fake data. So, you can quantify something for the sake of your argument.

puf, I suppose you are a female. Well, the direct answer to your question is no. Regarding the fake data, I do not know if we need to discuss that, in current society, there are more emotional people than rational, and that emotional people is (generally) collectivist. No sure if it is issue for this thread. This is enough for my last point. If you want to discuss about sex battle maybe we should open another thread. For me is unclear to what point I should answer you.

sorry if I am not really extending my arguments because your replies does not address mines rationally, IMHO. If someone thinks I have not responded I will be happy in extending. I am afraid we have an emotions/reason debate here and it could take the whole space of the board (and probably would be beyond the board's topics). But again happy to extend.

Why did the US need to fund wars? Velocity of money (lack thereof) is the real reason why gold standard was abolished... not funding the war which was the indirect reason in 1971 to overturn the law... France demanded 191 million in gold but instead of running through the reserves they just left Bretton Woods instead. It was too deflationary (ala Japan's lost decade) and gov't couldn't issue any more debt to spur economy.. more people with static supply lead to a view that the economy wasn't growing or would slow without doing something about it.

I urge you to read between the lines... you're misunderstandings are leading to further assumptions that are probably affecting your political/philosophical views. Check out http://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse it shouldn't take too long.

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