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Author Topic: why I think cryptocurrency market is a fake  (Read 5951 times)
jdbtracker
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November 10, 2014, 04:58:28 PM
 #41

I love this discussion, I'll definitely be watching it.

But you must understand that we are trying to find the true form of money, abstracting the idea from any pre-conceptions and adapting it to the situations that it may encounter.  All the exploration we are doing now, is to scientifically analyze the flow of money and understand it in the context of a region or society.

We can create phenomenal things when the limits are removed. Where are the Cryptocurrency Gate keepers, to dictate how our money is used? With traditional money it is the Banks, Law Enforcement, Governments, Businesses that dictate how that money will flow; Bitcoin takes a few of them out of the equation. It removed borders, Economic Cartels and any top down institution from dictating it's development... they must come to us now, the people, they can no longer dictate the terms, we now have a voice that they must hear. This dialogue about money is about equilibrium, we will not be treated as slaves of their economic systems.
This is a Democracy and we should be acting like it, get that dictatorship mentality out of your heads. It is sad that our Governance Leadership has forced us to do this.

The technology gives all the economic instruments used by traditional financial institutions to the people for them to remix and explore, I hope this trend continues. We as a people have our own interests to follow our own preoccupations to worry about, do you think the people would intentionally choose scammers and charlatans as the foundation of our common wealth? No, we will weed them out and find the solution that is The best for everyone.

Bitcoin is the beginning of Smart Contracts, Smart Property, The end of Theft, of misappropriation of funds, the beginning of barter systems, Hyper exchangeable Time Shares, Economic equilibrium across the planet and price finding solutions with dynamic solutions Globally.

... But we must still discuss our options, we must understand them and so we must research and collectively view any and all options critically. Please continue discussing, we will analyze scientifically all solutions and let the people decide which is best for them.

The Bizantine Generals problem has been solved up to 51% and there are solutions that can take it up to 99% using P2P Technology... we have solved the problem of trust. The Blockchain is censor proof, difficult to tamper it is the beginning of self-governance by the people, that is Bitcoins true innovation. The Blockchain can hold all your identifying information for everyone, all your credentials, all your contracts, and it can automate them using smart contracts, this is about a lot more than money... it is about self determination by the masses. We have eliminated the middle man.

Direct Democracy my friends.

Their network is bigger and more established so it's worth is much higher than all crypto-currencies combined, but we are getting bigger, more complex and modifying the system faster than they can fix theirs; they can play their games, but they must still Make us use their system, we freely choose our future.


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November 10, 2014, 08:08:33 PM
 #42

read trilema.com Grin

100% you know what's up Grin

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 08:43:38 PM
 #43

All the exploration we are doing now, is to scientifically analyze the flow of money and understand it in the context of a region or society

.... which means as a Keynesian, is not it?

Is there not any rational debate about the target environment to introduce in the market a rational idea? I love the proposals of cryptos but, the method how it is being put it forward, shows that it is not an actual market. Which raises me concerns about its actual purposes (=making a better society vs balancing investment portfolios with a new mysterious asset=fake).

Where is the Hayek-Keynes debate? Who is trying to analyse what kind of society will cryptos fit in? What other currencies will have the crypto to coexist? What will be the role of governments? What types of democracy and how can they fit with reality? Who does know here what praxeology is? Where is the debate of ideas? What things would we need from governments to have a crypto society? What would be their role? Who is exposing the big picture? What is the mission and vision of crypto companies (unknown)? Why are Russia and China buying gold? How does IMF SDR fit here? Nothing of that. Just empirical progress, keep going... as far as you can.... as a keynesian or as a sheep. And we will see what we find. When actors do not plan rationally to balance their risks means that it is not an actual market.

My criticism is as a libertarian Austrian advocate.
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November 10, 2014, 09:08:16 PM
 #44

^ @ op

Bitcoin contains the solution to the Triffin dilemma.

The Bitcoin system can curtail the ability of central banks to make monetary policy.

First you have to think in terms of what it means to “print” a money based on an actual non biased aggregate price index. In other words what goods and commodities are ACTUALLY worth!

How can this be achieved? By taking the money printing abilities away from the governments that are fixing the markets with, among other tactics, instability and regulation.  What is needed is a single currency in this world that has a stable money supply so you can create a standard of measurement to valuate all currencies:

"Our view is that if it is viewed scientifically and rationally (which is psychologically difficult!) that money should have a the function of a standard of measurement…"

No government has ever been able to achieve this in any significant manner because the economics of war ensues (notice many great wars of the past and present involve “money printers” (“Western”) vs those that denounce processes of usury (Islamic)).

Creating a money system via computers is not a new idea as the webpage from bitcoin’s wiki on its money supply points to a video with Milton Friedman describing such a system from his writings. In fact the decentralized scheme is a very Austrian ideology.

Now we get to Asymptotically Ideal Money which is the means with which we achieve the ends. Friedman and Hayek were both known for the introduction of “partway plans” to move from the current “sick” system to a more favorable one, knowing that simply switching over would be an impossible shock for the peoples to handle. How far then is a deflationary money supply from a school voucher system to facilitate privatization and truly free markets.

"The currencies being compared, like now the euro, the dollar, the yen, the pound, the swiss franc, the swedish kronor, etc. can be viewed with critical eyes by their users and by those who maybe have the option of whether or not  or how to use one of them.  This can lead to pressure for good quality and consequently for a lessened rate of inflationary deprecation in value."

And so there arises a global asymptotic slide towards a market in which the prices are set at their true value. Their true value being the free market prices as described by Adam Smith. It’s true that the infrastructure for citizens to have the option to put pressure on their national fiat still needs to be built, but it’s clear bitcoin has created the economic incentive (and educational tool) needed to create that means.

Does the Money Supply Even Matter?

Satoshi chose the largest possible natural implementation for bitcoin’s printing schedule.  How much would this have changed if the total release was 15 million coins or 10 million coins rather than 21 million? Especially considering these coins are divisible to the eighth decimal place.  Should we think of gold in the amount of atoms we have, and does the value change if we can divide these atoms to spend them?  Scarcity might not actually be leading factor here so much as the psychological belief in it.  It seems in regards to a “useful” currency any finite amount over “just enough” would be sufficient.

Bitcoin is the future Economy:

It comes later than now when the world understands they can “choose” what kind of global economy they want to participate in.

After comparing such practices to Bolshevik communism announces:

"…this parallel makes it seem not implausible that a process of political evolution might lead to the expectation on the part of citizens in the “great democracies” that they should be better situated to be able to understand whatever will be the monetary policies which, indeed, are typically of great importance to citizens who may have alternative option for where to place their “savings”."

Is there another “process of political evolution” going on?

Since I discovered Bitcoin I believe we are living it.


Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 09:33:53 PM
 #45

The Bitcoin system can curtail the ability of central banks to make monetary policy.

You do not need bitcoin for it. You can do it with gold (as Switzerland will be approaching in 3 weeks). And still is not done. Lot of people prefer governments managing their lifes.

Well, my objective was not triggering a mini-debate on "the domain" (as it would take lots of threads) but questioning why it does not exist. You are working for an idea (which I agree), how do you know that you are not being a puppet when actors in the industry do not clearly raise the debate? If you are successful with your plans, but the rest of the society does not change, you will be the happy one (because you succeed)...... and the poor one in the society.
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November 10, 2014, 09:39:49 PM
 #46

Just don't put all your eggs in one basket...Thanks for the thread.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 09:46:16 PM
 #47

Just don't put all your eggs in one basket...Thanks for the thread.

yes, you can say on that way, or you can also watch what others do as well.

For example, in 5 days, G-20 will be releasing to the world their plans for a new society (financial) architecture in Brisbane, Australia. Pay attention and try to think how cryptos fit on it, if they do. They have their own plans and they have much more power. (You will be able to download the documents. They are specs, to make up a framework, as the technical ones).

Thanks for the thread as well.
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November 10, 2014, 09:51:28 PM
 #48

Well said.

What are we Truly measuring with money? Gross Domestic Product, Our capacity and efficiency for work? The potential futures of said work? Maybe we got it all wrong, maybe we should be measuring Total Energy in circulation, Potential capacity to generate energy and efficiency of transmission. Bitcoin measures it, how willing are people to use energy to generate exchangeable energy tokens? How efficient are said tokens able to be produced?

and all energy intensive Cryptocurrencies combined measure it's aggregate over a range of measurements within the Energy Chain, if you can get people interested in the completion of an activity using energy, you are measuring it's energy allocation within the available energy supply.

Different Cryptocurrencies will measure different things, Bitcoin at this point measures the entire Energy Grid.

Curecoin, Gridcoin, Primecoin and others represent the energy allocated to scientific discovery.

Others like LItecoin, Peercoin and others represent alternative systems of measurement.

Zerocoin, Franko's, Freicoin, Dogecoin measure social structures whether it is a need for economic privacy, social movement or monetary policy.

Solarcoin, Devcoin, Namecoin represent energy used towards their respective products and services.


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November 10, 2014, 09:55:45 PM
 #49

Well said.

What are we Truly measuring with money? Gross Domestic Product, Our capacity and efficiency for work? The potential futures of said work? Maybe we got it all wrong, maybe we should be measuring Total Energy in circulation, Potential capacity to generate energy and efficiency of transmission. Bitcoin measures it, how willing are people to use energy to generate exchangeable energy tokens? How efficient are said tokens able to be produced?

This was addressed by Austrian School. You can NOT do calculation from a planned centralized party (government). This is socialism. Is just the Hayek's fatal conceit. You can only do economic calculation (as an opinion) from market and get paid for you accuracy (modeling the domain and running stats). Then you have a different kind of companies and the whole market roles change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

This kind of debates should be up. Otherwise is trying to fit an Austrian tool in a Keynesian world. Thanks for the perfect example.
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November 10, 2014, 10:05:55 PM
 #50

Let me guess...your about to release the EconomicPlanningCoin...I just caught on Wink

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 10:11:08 PM
 #51

Super whiz kid Vitalik Buterin points out there is a:

"…lower threshold that the total satoshi count manages to fall just below: the largest possible integer that can be exactly represented in floating point format"
Bullshit detector tripped!

Floating point since forever had two flavors: binary and decimal. The most well known standards are: IEEE 754-1985, IEEE 854-1987 & IEEE 754-2008. The only remaining question is which flavor of bullshit is being served here:

1) undereducated/incompetent
2) intentional deception/preliminary setup for future fraud
3) two-for-the-price-of-one mixture of the above

Standard links for those who are not afraid of the truth and not afraid to admit that they may have slept through some lecture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_floating_point
http://speleotrove.com/decimal/
 

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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November 10, 2014, 10:19:26 PM
 #52

^ Just a quote, I'll look it up and edit a correction. Thanks for keeping me honest Wink

UPDATE: I can't correct someone else's quote(or assume what they ment something different) so please research this number for yourself, I will use a different example next time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_floating_point
http://speleotrove.com/decimal/

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 10:20:37 PM
 #53

Let me guess...your about to release the EconomicPlanningCoin...I just caught on Wink

No really. I have got an ethical conflict in my career which, being Austrian, forced me to quit. I worked in a similar technology to bitcoin, which was XBRL, in Europe. When I understood the overall totalitarian plans, I moved out of the market. In Ayn Rand's words: "I can not work for something which is trying to destroy me". So, I was expecting to find on the cryptos the "open world point of view" but, what I see is the same Keynesianism with a different tool.  Cry
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November 10, 2014, 10:25:37 PM
 #54

Let me guess...your about to release the EconomicPlanningCoin...I just caught on Wink

No really. I have got an ethical conflict in my career which, being Austrian, forced me to quit. I worked in a similar technology to bitcoin, which was XBRL, in Europe. When I understood the overall totalitarian plans and moved out of the market. In Ayn Rand words: I can not work for something which is trying to destroy me. So, I was expecting to find on the cryptos the open world point of view but, what I see is the same Keynesianism with a different tool.  Cry

I said earlier I do see your points on all this. It's a good topic. We can't be closed minded about the world we live in.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 10:39:14 PM
 #55

exactly. This is why I tried setting this trying to share understanding about what is going on from the big picture

http://www.inprogressweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Boiling_Frogs_Pic_-_resized.jpeg
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November 11, 2014, 12:27:26 AM
 #56

UPDATE: I can't correct someone else's quote(or assume what they ment something different) so please research this number for yourself, I will use a different example next time:
I can't blame you for quoting accurately. So the remaining question is: what to do when fact-checking an authority shows him to be a bullshit artist?

Edit: Let me try to translate Vitelik's bulshiteese into more straightforward English:

Quote from: me in somebody's else voice
I have zero experience in working with actual financial software. I even have no amateur's interest in learning how it works. I'm writing a demagoguery targeted at the lowest common denominator of code monkey: Javascript or PHP programmer for the web services.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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November 11, 2014, 02:18:45 PM
 #57

One example of tech that is useful which wasnt possible is prediction markets aswell as other decentralized markets which cant be censored or shutdown.. it is a new world and there is no way for those "in power" to stop it. The market is bigger than the biggest whale. It will act irrational longer than u will remain solvent. Thus I expect these plans to be washed with the real hidden agenda.. if they dont prepare for
blockchain tech today these countries will be obsolete.

Btw china was fake they didnt ban.. never were going to. They bought cheap coins knowing whats coming.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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November 11, 2014, 02:23:05 PM
 #58

it is a new world and there is no way for those "in power" to stop it.

oh, yes, there is way http://project.ukrinform.ua/news/virtual_currency_bitcoin_banned_in_ukraine__73534/

but even in the case that there would not be way, is very possible for them to make it the option of the poor people and take the big resources and purchasing power for them with other coexisting currencies backed by governments, laws, oil, gas, gold...

i think cryptos do not just need to grow themselves but also get rid of the central planned enemy, maybe by force. However, I see an intermediate way: fight for gold backed national currencies. This is the only way to keep purchasing power of cryptos, IMHO

In 1944, in the Bretton Woods Accords, Americans (USA) did a very good thing for liberty. They backed their national currency in gold, the same that the reserve currency. Unfortunately this setup was broken by Nixon 27 years after. You cannot allow governments decoupling their currency from people's currency since you would be back to a neo-feudalism.
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November 11, 2014, 05:26:22 PM
 #59

it is a new world and there is no way for those "in power" to stop it.

oh, yes, there is way http://project.ukrinform.ua/news/virtual_currency_bitcoin_banned_in_ukraine__73534/

but even in the case that there would not be way, is very possible for them to make it the option of the poor people and take the big resources and purchasing power for them with other coexisting currencies backed by governments, laws, oil, gas, gold...

i think cryptos do not just need to grow themselves but also get rid of the central planned enemy, maybe by force. However, I see an intermediate way: fight for gold backed national currencies. This is the only way to keep purchasing power of cryptos, IMHO

In 1944, in the Bretton Woods Accords, Americans (USA) did a very good thing for liberty. They backed their national currency in gold, the same that the reserve currency. Unfortunately this setup was broken by Nixon 27 years after. You cannot allow governments decoupling their currency from people's currency since you would be back to a neo-feudalism.
No they cannot stop the tech.. u didnt get it. Sure u can choose what tokens u want ppl to pay taxes off with but u cant stop all forms of exchange between the tokens.

★☆★Syscoin - Decentralized Marketplace and Multisig Platform
Pay with Bitcoin, ZCash and many more
For more visit Syscoin.org  ★☆★
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November 11, 2014, 05:50:41 PM
 #60

No they cannot stop the tech.. u didnt get it. Sure u can choose what tokens u want ppl to pay taxes off with but u cant stop all forms of exchange between the tokens.

yes, yes, I agree, they cannot stop the tech, but we cannot stop the politics by waiting it just happens

actually i am afraid they are very happy that we do tech
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