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Author Topic: why I think cryptocurrency market is a fake  (Read 5916 times)
ponzinomics reloaded
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November 10, 2014, 02:13:32 AM
 #1

Hi, this is my first message in the board so greetings everybody.

Well, I have been following the cryptocoin market for a while. I have felt the temptation to get involved quite a few times since it looks the only promising initiative to allow citizens decide their own future. By the way clarify that I am a libertarian, Austrian advocate, despite I am aware of flaws in Austrian economics which makes me a bit a Popperian more that a Hayekian. As an IT contractor I have got involved in projects for Central Banks and Statistical Offices in Europe so I known a bit how the mainstream works and what they intend.

Despite I have thought getting my hands dirty on the crypto world, my (few) approaches to it has been always disappointing. I see that main cryptocoin providers has run away of proposing any ideological battle. Nobody speaks about what ethics is (against morals), what negative liberty means, why the current scientific method (as the foundation of current monetarism) is a logical mistake, what is the difference between positive and normative economics, and what I see in the bitworld is: bits, block chains, mining and hardware. Nothing else. Dissappointing. Huh

So, which is my conclusion of this? If you realize, most of the cryptocompanies have been created out of investors, which instead are feed by Federal Reserve, by BoJ, by ECB injections and by the full mainstream economic machinery. They are no proposing anything new but looking for an alternative way to balance their investments. And this is in my opinion a thief. They have stolen the initial Shatoshi idea, they have occupied it, emptied of any content and they look for to do more of the same carry trade business.  Huh

I have created a discussion board (http://ponzinomics.org/) which I have maintained for 3 months and this is my first attempt trying to hit the market to propose the battle of ideas. The board sits on current mainstream economics and the "current real world", trying to enroll people from all ideologies and trying to make them understand how current system works as a whole. Obviously, as an Austrian I want to convince others why Austrian ideas are better than keynesian models based on the scientific method, but I want to hear opinion of others as well. I have not found this proposal in any place on the whole web, so if you challenge the idea, I want to create a community about it and maybe "evangelize".

That said, I want to hear your opinions about why cryptoworld is not a fake since is funded by the mainstream and does not propose any new ideas just other way to do more of the same thing.
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November 10, 2014, 02:31:29 AM
 #2

but you should, do not you think?

http://mises.org/document/3970/Denationalisation-of-Money-The-Argument-Refined

http://mises.org//store/Assets/ProductImages/SS408.jpg

What if the government let anyone use a currency of his or her choosing? What if the government permitted entrepreneurs to innovate in the monetary sector, such as by creating digital currencies or minting commodity money?

This is precisely what F.A. Hayek argues.

By special arrangement with the Institute for Economic Affairs, the Mises Institute is pleased to offer a new printing of F.A. Hayek's most radical case for the complete privatization of money: The Denationalisation of Money. He wrote this near the end of his career, after thinking through all the economic arguments for monetary reform and examining the political viability of various proposals. He shows the essential unviability of government money, and calls for a complete free market in the production and distribution and management of money.

This book is the very core of the Hayekian approach to monetary policy, and the book that drew the world's attention to this radical thinker following his Nobel Prize in economics. The argument is substantively similar to Mises's but rather than a gold standard, Hayek argues for completely abandoning government attempts to reform money. The result would be competitive private currencies that permits the market alone to choose the dominant currency the world over.
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November 10, 2014, 02:32:49 AM
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your thought is not wrong. There are a variety of artifacts on the market now  Roll Eyes
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November 10, 2014, 02:38:00 AM
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well, maybe not everything is fake, obviously, and there are actually some genuine companies and people working on a big ideals, the free banking idea is decades old, but I am afraid, part of the market just tries to mislead and distort the original proposal.

What is going on here? Is bitcoin, and the other, about bits or is about society values?
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November 10, 2014, 02:51:34 AM
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OP most smart people are thinking about bitcoin as its own currency to buy food and goods with it as oppose to a FIAT investment scheme, but these smart people are not talking much on bitcointalk as they are busy people. some of us just use bitcointalk as a social forum about the general bitcoin topics rather than the global currency important stuff.

many of us do highlight the ethics such as spout out arguments about BFL and TBF aswell as gox, and other scammers.

but what you do have to realise is that swapping bitcoin for traditional fiat DOES have to occur to move people from the fiat lifestyle and into the bitcoin lifestyle.

to get to the stage of having a proper self managed currency where people work for bitcoins, buy goods with bitcoins and those goods pay businesses and staff in bitcoins (the economic loop) requires a transitional point.

this transitional point is not completed in 5 days, it takes years. welcome to bitcoin, be aware you are still at the early transition stage of innovation before mass adopters come onboard. so most of your points are too early to be appropriate

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November 10, 2014, 02:53:26 AM
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OP most smart people are thinking about bitcoin as its own currency to buy food and goods with it as oppose to a FIAT investment scheme, but these smart people are not talking much on bitcointalk as they are busy people. some of us just use bitcointalk as a social forum about the general bitcoin topics rather than the global currency important stuff.

many of us do highlight the ethics such as spout out arguments about BFL and TBF aswell as gox, and other scammers.

but what you do have to realise is that swapping bitcoin for traditional fiat DOES have to occur to move people from the fiat lifestyle and into the bitcoin lifestyle. to get to the stage of having a proper self manged currency where people work for bitcoins, buy goods with bitcoins and those goods pay businesses and staff in bitcoins (the economic loop) requires a transitional point.

this transitional point is not completed in 5 days, it takes years. welcome to bitcoin, be aware you are still at the early transition stage of innovation before mass adopters come onboard. so most of your points are too early to be appropriate

Basically what Franky here says. I pretty much follow his thinking in every post! lol


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November 10, 2014, 02:54:19 AM
 #7

I think there are some true innovative applicable cryptocoins in the market, whose dev are dedicated and diligent in their work, and proposing their ideas. It will benefit all of us probably it is not as you expected. But the time will tell you!

My blog:http://coinour.com/
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November 10, 2014, 03:00:57 AM
 #8

@ op

If you have not read this I would really recommend it concerning the economics of Bitcoin:

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/shelling-out/

http://web.archive.org/web/20070618142414/http://szabo.best.vwh.net/scarce.html

If you haven't watched this video please do, you will not be disappointed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUNGFZDO8mM

Bitcoin was influenced by Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations”, Adam Muller’s “HyperMoney”, Thomas Edison’s “Commodity Currency”, William Feller’s “Probability Theory”, John Nash’s “Ideal Money”, Tim May’s “Crypto-anarchy” and “David Chaum’s “DigiCash” with the help of  Nick Szabo’s acquired knowledge (including “BitGold” & “Scarce Objects”), Wei Dai’s “bmoney”(website & c++ lib.), Hal Finney’s “RPOW & PGP” and Adam Back’s “HashCash”.
http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/nlh/summary/v031/31.2gray.html
http://moneymorning.com/ext/bitcoin/videos/html-bitcoin.php?iris=167662&link_source=popup
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_money

Bitcoin is the beginning of the completion of a “Kula Ring”, a unifying solution that bridges among other things, game theory, encryption, economics, finance, programming, and law.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 03:03:00 AM
 #9

I dont think your thoughts are correct my kind sir.

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ponzinomics reloaded
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November 10, 2014, 03:04:30 AM
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Thanks for your comments. I am afraid of seeing one thing as current society evolves. I am afraid of seeing a new world reserve currency raising anytime soon, maybe backed in gold. I see governments separating people's currencies from government's currency, and cryptocurrencies being the resource of the poor people, those that did not get a chance for a government paid job. So, to properly understand where cryptoworld fits, it is required to understand where the rest is moving to.

For example, are you aware that there are political initiatives which will allow big companies no getting bankrupted anymore? This will be presented in Brisbane in 2 weeks by G-20.....Where does cryptoworld fit here?
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November 10, 2014, 03:10:38 AM
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Thanks for your comments. I am afraid of seeing one thing as current society evolves. I am afraid of seeing a new world reserve currency raising anytime soon, maybe backed in gold. I see governments separating people's currencies from government's currency, and cryptocurrencies being the resource of the poor people, those that did not get a chance for a government paid job. So, to properly understand where cryptoworld fits, it is required to understand where the rest is moving to.

For example, are you aware that there are political initiatives which will allow big companies no getting bankrupted anymore? This will be presented in Brisbane in 2 weeks by G-20.....Where does cryptoworld fit here?

Please watch that video and shelling out link I posted. I think this could answer a lot of your questions.

Bitcoin is the p2p payment system to be used on the massive ultra-secure blockchain ledger. You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable. Bitcoin should really take off once smart contracts get through their trial period and we can provide the facts to the general public. I believe this will be the point everyone is waiting on. Smart Contracts will enable loans, mortgages and registration of property such as car titles on the blockchain. Once the Bitcoin payment is made the door to the house or car you just bought will open or you will be able to print out your rental agreement. You see Bitcoin is the payment system that will be used for the smart contracts, not only person to person, but the smart contracts have digital agents which will have wallets also. Don't miss the whole point of Bitcoin being the means of payments for all the services that will be running on the blockchain. Thats why it was designed to act like a scarce commodity. Only 21 million will ever be available to be used to pay for all the services that will be available.

Note: I'm talking about Gavins Bitcoin 2.0 smart contracts, not altcoins.

UPDATE:

The first credit to Bitcoin in the white paper was a citation for Wei Dai’s “bmoney”.

The first paragraph of “bmoney”:
“It’s a community where the threat of violence is impotent because violence is impossible, and violence is impossible because its participants cannot be linked to their true names or physical locations”. ~Wei Dai

The Internet and Bitcoin were created to allow people to solve social problems in a novel way: Instead of the ancient formula of “the strongest wins and then beats the crap out of the loser” we all can achieve a peaceful society where both rich and poor, strong and weak can protect their property and freedom on more equal grounds without relying on violent institutions like governments.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 03:24:47 AM
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You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable.

I am an IT guy for 15 years, I can figure out what things can be done and I am aware of some of them, but I cannot figure out who will want to do them, when you can work for companies that never get bankrupted and get paid in a gold backed currency. No entrepreneur can compete with these companies, close to governments, whom own the resources, never get bankrupted and trade internationally. So you will have a society with patronage networks and cryptos will be for the excluded ones, the low level class. This is what I see.

That said, I will browse your links. Thanks for them.
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November 10, 2014, 03:36:37 AM
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You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable.

I am an IT guy, I can figure out what things can be done and I am aware of some of them, but I cannot figure out who will want to do them, when you can work for companies that never get bankrupted and be paid in a gold backed currency. No entrepreneur can compete with these companies, close to governments, whom own the resources, never get bankrupted and trade internationally. So cryptos will be for the excluded ones.

That said, I will browse your links. Thanks for them.

They print the money with no gold to back it up. That's the problem. 170+ trillion in debt with 1.3 trillion in circulation and only 800 billion in the banks....they still give out FRB loans every day. Money that doesn't exist until you sign the loan papers and then poof...by the click of a key new money is created, not backed up by gold.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 03:41:15 AM
 #14

Interesting thread. Watching
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November 10, 2014, 03:42:06 AM
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They print the money with no gold to back it up. That's the problem. 170+ trillion in debt with 1.3 trillion in circulation and only 800 billion in the banks....they still give out FRB loans every day. Money that doesn't exist until you sign the loan papers and then poof...by the click of a key new money is created, not backed up by gold.

yes, BUT, next reserve currency probably will be in Asia, renmimbi, ruble or something else (e.g. IMF SDR). Asia has the oil and now, also the gold, and Asia, either Russia and/or China, would be happy to get paid in gold for their oil by backing their currencies in gold as reserve currency. This will force the rest of the world to also back their (government) currencies in gold to pay for Asian oil and resources. And this will force governments decoupling their currency from people's currencies. And people's currency will be debased over time. Who is going to be a crypto entrepreneur instead of working for government, and get paid in a hard currency, on these conditions? Do not you see the threat?

The owning of the resources, i.e. oil (we are still a oil based society), defines who has the power. (PETRO dollar)
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November 10, 2014, 03:51:54 AM
 #16

^ I understand your point. I do see you putting good thought to this. I do see the threats, but I think Bitcoin will co-exist with things. Edit: for a certain period of time.

This reminds me of that paper going around awhile back. I'll post the link.

http://bitcoinunion.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/bitcoin-swift-and-the-brics/

This is a VERY interesting Paper.

It indicates that 250 million dollars could take bitcoin to a new level. It could be used by a coalition of countries as a payment system that would combat the US's ability to wage economic war on the world. It could be accomplished through the "SWIFT" Telecommunications Network. The author is calmly pointing out that this could effectively be done in an instant. The paper finishes by suggesting that even a few whales could make it happen.

I'm using my intuition, but I don't think this should be taken as lightly as it was written. They have explained something about global finance I have been searching for since knowing about game theory economics and Bitcoin.  

It's not just some kid who wrote this...this is a very intelligent game theoretical solution for a serious economic situation.

It is a brag almost, if its correct. The author seems to KNOW its correct.

In my opinion, the author is calmly suggesting, after first doing the math (and including 30 trillion I could have never realize existed), that a giant shift in the economics of the world could be achieved over night with a VERY insignificant amount of money. It could happen in one single blow. A giant amount of power could be taken away from those that are now in control the global economy.

They didn't ask if its correct, they said:  

Quote

"So I wonder who will be first to move".

This person is seeing and describing a war that most people cannot fathom exists, and just spelled out creation of the "atom bomb" that could put a stop to it.

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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November 10, 2014, 04:14:16 AM
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It indicates that 250 million dollars could take bitcoin to a new level. It could be used by a coalition of countries as a payment system that would combat the US's ability to wage economic war on the world. It could be accomplished through the "SWIFT" Telecommunications Network. The author is calmly pointing out that this could effectively be done in an instant. The paper finishes by suggesting that even a few whales could make it happen.

I agree that in the event of a collapse, bitcoin has a chance, no question.... supposing that the collapse does not impact on bitcoin infrastructure (internet remains up)... But, this is a different discussion, I think.

Honestly I do not expect any collapse. I think central banks have already learnt to buy assets and extend status quo for 30 years more. Japan already has been 25 years kicking the can.

Even I also doubt of direct confrontation West-East. Despite they have sanctioned each other and the like, G-20 is going to present to the world global measures in 2 weeks, about building global infrastructures (printing 45tn$ in 5 years and Asia is involved), if you have a look at main US Treasury holders, they do not even shrink but they are holding more dollars instead. I bet more for a global dictatorship or maybe 2 dictatorships with different flavour. And, for example, in the event of a collapse, if the currency gets totally debased, who is going to maintain the nukes? Obviously governments will jump into a global fascism. And this is the scenario where I see cryptos evolving to become the currency of the poor people.

I agree we have several scenarios here. I am more in the no collapse scenario. And, in this global fascism, I do not see the cryptos as hard money.
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November 10, 2014, 04:20:21 AM
 #18

My 3 year old kid understands cryptocurrencies better.
Don't read this thread..
You have to research and see all the things the Bitcoin blockchain will enable.

I am an IT guy for 15 years, I can figure out what things can be done and I am aware of some of them, but I cannot figure out who will want to do them, when you can work for companies that never get bankrupted and get paid in a gold backed currency. No entrepreneur can compete with these companies, close to governments, whom own the resources, never get bankrupted and trade internationally. So you will have a society with patronage networks and cryptos will be for the excluded ones, the low level class. This is what I see.

That said, I will browse your links. Thanks for them.
You seem like an old IT guy. I doubt anything you've said and I see this only as a potential FUD thread.


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November 10, 2014, 04:24:05 AM
 #19

My 3 year old kid understands cryptocurrencies better.
Don't read this thread..
You seem like an old IT guy. I doubt anything you've said and I see this only as a potential FUD thread.

My academics is an industrial engineer despite I worked 15 years as IT dev and arch in finance. However, I realise you do not understand the context of cryptocurrencies.
Billbags
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Brainwashed this way


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November 10, 2014, 04:25:19 AM
 #20

@ op
I do agree, my personal view for the near future (5 years) is Bitcoin will be the payment system for services provided on the blockchain(ie...smart contracts, western union bill pay, etc...) and an internet payment option while also running co-existent like visa does to cash now. Bitcoin is still young......Thanks for your thread, please read shelling out and watch that video, it really worth it.

UPDATE: This is a real important read also:

http://szabo.best.vwh.net/ttps.html 

Listen: meat beat manifesto ~ Edge of no control (pt.1)
Read:"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past." ~ George Orwell
Think: http://unenumerated.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-dawn-of-trustworthy-computing.html
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