[FACT] Anon coins will never work !

[othe]

What are you talking about?!?!

I can proof that i send coins to address XYZ if i have to. You were asking how i can proof a payment, i said it can be done via cryptography. Thats essential for every cryptocurrency and something that can be barely done using mixing protocols etc.

Tho i am not interested in discussing further if you are flipping my words...

[smooth]

Anyway, if I want a third party to purposely be able to verify I paid something... how do I do that?

Thats no problem with Monero, works the same as you sign with a bitcoin address (just cryptograhically a bit more complicated); that of course doesn´t work with stuff like darkcoin.

So that's basically saying the whole Ring Signatures stuff is FUD?

1. Some independent third party being able to prove you sent coins without your help.

2. You being able to prove to an independent third party that you sent coins.

See the difference?

[MaxDZ8]

You being called to prove your position in a lawsuit soon following.
See the similarity?

[smooth]

You being called to prove your position in a lawsuit soon following.
See the similarity?

No, I don't see the similarity at all. If I'm called in a lawsuit I can prove that I sent the coins. Case dismissed.

If I were called in a lawsuit about you having sent or not sent coins, I couldn't prove a damn thing. I guess I'd be in trouble in that unlikely scenario.

[Spoetnik]

I think a mega interesting thing here is that Silk Road 2.0 and 400+ sites were taken down via an undisclosed method (i pointed out earlier)
and i had already heard some possible theories on how they might have infiltrated the middle layer.. TOR itself.

Correction: 400+ pages from a handful of compromised sites, probably 20-25 of them.

The SR2 bust itself was largely a result of social engineering. The technique
used to expose the other sites involved probably ddosing the sites and putting up large numbers
of law enforcement-controlled Tor nodes until they filled the circuits and could trace ip's.
http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/11/silk-road-other-tor-darknet-sites-may-have-been-decloaked-through-ddos/

What makes that kind of thing possible is the still small number of dedicated Tor relay nodes that are legit
in the sense of providing anonymity to users. There is strength in numbers, and the powers that be are
afraid of that.

go tell the whole internet.. i repeated what 1,000 sites said word for word
and speculation is speculation.
NO
The FBI did NOT disclose how they took them down.. you guys are guessing.

[MaxDZ8]

No, I don't see the similarity at all. If I'm called in a lawsuit I can prove that I sent the coins. Case dismissed.

Dismissed if the other end trusts you. Here is how is going to unfold in some (legislation specific) scenario.
You will be asked to provide proof you sent the coins. At this point you have two choices:

• embark on a long, time, effort and money consuming journey to ensure everyone understands your signature 100% secure and reproducible. Good luck with the lawyers.
• handle your private key so the procedure can be reproduced by a third party

In case this is not clear. You cannot just declare things, proof must be produced by third party. Mathematical proof has the same value of a simple declaration. You would get the very same protection... unless you first obtain full understanding of the technical properties involved. Some legislation systems do not allow you to produce proof by your side. That is, you can declare the numbers add up, but until verified by third party, that will be considered little more than opinion.

How it works in oldschool banking systems: banks gets queried, checks clearance, provides results (or not, in some cases).
How it works in BTC-like chains. Details are here.

If I were called in a lawsuit about you having sent or not sent coins, I couldn't prove a damn thing. I guess I'd be in trouble in that unlikely scenario.

Glad to see you find "unlikely" those things happen more than once to me already, to the point I've once paid lawyers to let everyone know I shelled out money (the declaration was made public, it had my name, place of birth, address and exact sum paid). I guess as a customer I would just not use Anon in this case... question is why should I accept it as a seller at that point because I have also been contacted by customers a few times to confirm their payments.

Let's put this in another way. Because I really need to understand this (sorry for derailing the privacy centered thread, feel free to rm/ignore).

Say I have three customers, A,B,C. Each due to pay 1 currency unit to receive item X from me.
Deadline is met. I have two coins.
In the XMR announcement I saw pictures which had question marks at the receiver side.

[Piston Honda]

As great tech an Anon can become and hopefully actually work, the way things are going I think OP may be right =S
Dare I agree lol.

Honestly I see the mainstream approach working better as things move along.

[illodin]

Say I have three customers, A,B,C. Each due to pay 1 currency unit to receive item X from me.
Deadline is met. I have two coins.

You create a unique receiving address for each customer. Then it's easy to see which address has 0.

[smooth]

embark on a long, time, effort and money consuming journey to ensure everyone understands your signature 100% secure and reproducible. Good luck with the lawyers.

I agree.

Welcome to the early 21st century. Dealing with cryptocoins in court is going to be a mess for a while.

If you don't want to be a pioneer, you shouldn't be here.

Over time these things have a way of working themselves out.

[smooth]

Say I have three customers, A,B,C. Each due to pay 1 currency unit to receive item X from me.
Deadline is met. I have two coins.
In the XMR announcement I saw pictures which had question marks at the receiver side.

This is done using payment IDs. You give each customer his own random payment ID. That is given only to that specific customer. At this point the payment ID is known only to you and to the customer.

When the payments arrive you (and only you) can correlate the payment with the customer. Customer B can't claim that customer A's payment is his because you gave Customer A's payment ID only to customer A.

It is also possible to give different payment addresses to each customer as with Bitcoin (again privately), but that is somewhat less efficient. Again in this case the payment address would be known only to you and to the customer.

In case of disputes, payments can be proven using a more complex cryptographic process.

In case of going to court and having to hire experts to testify as to how cryptocurrencies work and how this means a customer paid or didn't pay, good fucking luck. You will need it, and a lot of money. Don't do that.

[dragnar]

I think a mega interesting thing here is that Silk Road 2.0 and 400+ sites were taken down via an undisclosed method (i pointed out earlier)
and i had already heard some possible theories on how they might have infiltrated the middle layer.. TOR itself.

Correction: 400+ pages from a handful of compromised sites, probably 20-25 of them.

The SR2 bust itself was largely a result of social engineering. The technique
used to expose the other sites involved probably ddosing the sites and putting up large numbers
of law enforcement-controlled Tor nodes until they filled the circuits and could trace ip's.
http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/11/silk-road-other-tor-darknet-sites-may-have-been-decloaked-through-ddos/

What makes that kind of thing possible is the still small number of dedicated Tor relay nodes that are legit
in the sense of providing anonymity to users. There is strength in numbers, and the powers that be are
afraid of that.

go tell the whole internet.. i repeated what 1,000 sites said word for word
and speculation is speculation.
NO
The FBI did NOT disclose how they took them down.. you guys are guessing.

U cant have a anonymous anything on the internet wen all the servers u connect to ( and trough ) are centralized and inspected / controlled )
And your whole surfing history is saved < easy to connect the dots )
 

[Spoetnik]

they don't get it LOL
either your anon or not.. it's like talking to a wall here all the time

[Dabs]

CoinJoin ? or mixers... or random gambling sites that don't close.

But then I'm not anon.

[YarkoL]

they don't get it LOL
either your anon or not.. it's like talking to a wall here all the time

Nothing is 100% anything.

You can't become totally anon except by never being born,
but you can try to maximize your privacy under conditions where
it is not being respected.

[Spoetnik]

they don't get it LOL
either your anon or not.. it's like talking to a wall here all the time

Nothing is 100% anything.

You can't become totally anon except by never being born,
but you can try to maximize your privacy under conditions where
it is not being respected.

common sense ya ya i know

your skipping over the point..
the perception of things we EXPECT to be anon that are not.. such as TOR

[YarkoL]

the perception of things we EXPECT to be anon that are not.. such as TOR

Who we? Tor is much more secure than unencrypted internet. Some of us who learn to use Tor, learn its
shortcomings and start to use Tails, Some of us learn to run Tails in Vbox on usb
stick and so on. Some of us lend bandwidth to Tor traffic instead of moaning how
"this anon stuff isn't good enough"

[Spoetnik]

the perception of things we EXPECT to be anon that are not.. such as TOR

Who we? Tor is much more secure than unencrypted internet. Some of us who learn to use Tor, learn its
shortcomings and start to use Tails, Some of us learn to run Tails in Vbox on usb
stick and so on. Some of us lend bandwidth to Tor traffic instead of moaning how
"this anon stuff isn't good enough"

we're going round in circles right back where i started now lol

just keep thinking your smarter than a Billion dollar hacker budget the US govt might have.
do i need to point out their resources ? ..they are limitless !
the sites usually reside on US soil and are subject to US law and they own the whole internet.
Back bone servers on US soil have you on your first hop from an ISP (collecting your IP and more)
Control, point A then point B.. then cross reference it.. the stupid shit in the middle is meaningless and you still don't get it LOL

but hey you know better and have "methods" good luck with that LOL
i am sure the guys who ran Silk Road vs 1 and version 2 thought that too

[YarkoL]

i am sure the guys who ran Silk Road vs 1 and version 2 thought that too

It wasn't any Billion dollar hacker who brought them down.

[Spoetnik]

i am sure the guys who ran Silk Road vs 1 and version 2 thought that too

It wasn't any Billion dollar hacker who brought them down.

that has what to do with it ?
and i will say for the 4th time.. none of you know.
the FBI said undisclosed methods so don't pretend you know LOL

you have been running all over the map here trying to argue and every time i shut you up you change what you want to argue about. LOL
say something right and i will agree with you ..how about that ? we got a deal ?

the us gov can seize any two points.. it is within their power.
so no, all the fancy faggotry in the middle will never ever make any damn difference.
your security and privacy lies in the question.. how bad do they want you ?
it's a question of do they utilize their power they wield fully ?

they want you to be smug with your false sense of security it is the core of their investigations.

i'm a cracker and i get it obviously some of you aren't and don't, there is no getting through to argumentative know it all's LOL

a decade or two of computer security, cracking, coding, reverse engineering + much more has taught me a lot !

such as how to laugh at cocky dick heads as i own their ass millions of times endlessly time after time after time.
i was told unanimously by ever single guy i was wasting my time in crypto when i started with an Nvidia card.. i proved them wrong and said i told you so. (they are long gone)
Like i said earlier i was told "you can't" when it came to cracking my phone.. i did and said i told you so
I have said "I told you so" a loooooooooot on the internet that is for fucking damn sure  
because i am always right  

you know better than me ? then good luck with that..

[Spoetnik]

Albert Einstein was prob the best cracker when he said Matter can not be destroyed. (The old rule: matter to energy or energy to matter)
There for anything can in theory be pieced back together even a planet eaten by a blackhole
that radiates away from the event horizon..
The laws of physics say your not going to come up with a scheme that is 100% anon.. it'll break his theory of relativity i think !  

Anything can be pieced back together no matter how big the bang.. it's just a matter of difficulty.

I think many of you out there grossly underestimate what crackers can do and what the resources and capabilities of nations like the USA are capable of.
And even when people tell you outright.. you still argue on clinging to this smug false sense of security in old technology lol

If this anon garbage used in TOR was so solid why are their so many arrests ?
and THAT is the fucking point !
There is arrests period .

And anon coins i bet are a minor obstacle and one that won't hold them up long with the code on Github hahhaha

edit:
Arguing about common sense is dumb and best left to the contrarians = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrarian
the position i always hold is repeating common sense so i am always amazed how people want to argue with it