GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[alienesb]

The plan from GAW's perspective is that people will keep restaking, and the few that cash out will only cash out a bit at a time.  The "market maker" staker/investors, will either have to restake their earned paycoins after 6 months in order to keep their prime controller status (because they have to maintain that 1% of all paycoins status to keep the controller status)... or sell their prime controller to another interested party.  They simply can't cash out their coins.

Well, this is a problem for a currency if the system is inducing people to hoard instead of spend! In this case it is not a currency but a speculative asset. Junk bonds are also speculative assets that earn a yield for holding them. But you can't also use a debit card to buy a danish with part of your bond.
The two mandates just don't jive: 1. it's a currency go out and transact with them and spend! 2. if you hoard them you'll get rewarded.

Keynes recognized the so-called purchasing power sink caused by hoarding money and how it can trigger financial crisis.

Oh come on, Keynesian economics fails every time in the real world.

[Snail2]

i fail to see how any of this is a worthwhile investment.
all you are doing is continually giving money to GAW.

Constant cash flow . Not to mention that most ppl over there converted their script and sha hashlets to stakers. Sooner or later they want to buy hashlets again plus these lifetime haslets were all converted to 1.5, 3 and 6 month stakers, so GAW will have tons of "free" hashlets to sell back again. I'd buy GAW shares if I could .

[puwaha]

The big question is if the exchange rate between XPY->USD can be effectively stabilized with the floor that GAW talks about for a significant amount of time.  No one knows the answer to this unfortunately.

WAFFLE PLEASE DIRECT THIS SHRILL TO THE PCFAN STATEMENTS TODAYS the fiat reserve is tba silly and the community has a better chance to raise the price

So... you want to discuss purchasing power of an XPY vs. USD?  I'm confused here by your "shrill" reply.

[puwaha]

The plan from GAW's perspective is that people will keep restaking, and the few that cash out will only cash out a bit at a time.  The "market maker" staker/investors, will either have to restake their earned paycoins after 6 months in order to keep their prime controller status (because they have to maintain that 1% of all paycoins status to keep the controller status)... or sell their prime controller to another interested party.  They simply can't cash out their coins.

says fckin who you k ps i guess im the only one cashing out 100% friday haha ill never stake

"Says fckin who"... me?  Yes.

I thought that's what we were doing here... debating our opinions?  Go ahead and cash out your 25 XPY.  I doubt you'll make much dent.

[Snail2]

When you say something like that you can also try doing your own math and not wait for someone to do it for you.

There is a maximum of 20 hashpoints per user per day. By GAW's own admission there are between 10-20k users at most. Assuming everyone got 20 per day (which they obviously didn't) for 60 days (obviously too much, since this feature didn't work for a while) we get 24 million hashpoints. Doesn't make a dent in 2.9 billion.

HPs can be created only by mining? Are you sure? Actually I have no idea what HP really is and how many exist.

[eightcylinders]

I prefer a cautious approach to my investments and yes, the 'locked-in' part of the whole staking process just puts me off entirely.

I can understand this point of view because paycoin is so new... but certificate of deposits are nothing new, and are generally considered to be some of the most conservative/cautious investments you can make.  And that is pretty much what a hashstaker is... it's a CD  A high-yield CD... but nonetheless... a CD.

I have to say, that would be true if this altcoin had a proven track record. you already state that it's new, and therefore, it is not a cautious investment for anyone to make, in any way.

Well, let's look at the comparison two ways...

1.  A regular bank giving a 1.5% APY is actually losing you money if inflation is 3% per year.  So... a bank CD is only cautious because your original deposit is coming back to you... but that doesn't mean you made any money.  You actually lost purchasing power, while the bank had a field day with your original deposit.

2.  A hashstaker is similar in that you are paid in XPY... not USD.  So it doesn't matter what the XPY->USD exchange rate is when the hashstaker matures/expires... you are getting the rate that GAW said you were going to get in XPY only.  The purchasing power of that XPY may be poor due to a poor XPY->USD exchange rate... similar to the purchasing power of your CD deposit being affected by inflation in #1 above.

The big question is if the exchange rate between XPY->USD can be effectively stabilized with the floor that GAW talks about for a significant amount of time.  No one knows the answer to this unfortunately.

This is so absurd I don't even know where to start, but I will try.  You need to read some basic finance texts on debt (particularly bonds) and risk.

Basically there are a few principals you should try to understand:

(1) Its all debt (make no mistake: your bank deposit or CD is in reality debt, and so is your "purchase" of a hashtaker and your "staking" of coins with GAW - you are just lending money in exchange for a rate of return guaranty)

(2) When you invest in debt instruments, you get a rate of return that is determined almost entirely by the RISK of repayment or lack thereof.  The higher the risk of default, the higher the interest rate.

(3) A BANK CD has ZERO risk of default, therefore nearly zero rate of return.  Not only is it a lend to a financial institution that is heavily regulated, and has minimum cash on hand and deposit requirements, and is limited in the risk of its investments, etc.... BUT ALSO the FDIC insures your deposit.  So even if the bank goes belly up, you get your money back so long as the U.S. government is still around and functioning.  At least this is true in the U.S. 

(4) A loan to a major corporation that is RATED HIGHLY (usually Moody's) is via a bond instrument.  ROI for A-AAA rated bonds is low (<1%) because no one thinks for a minute that GE for example is going to default on short term. 

(5) A loan to a major corporation that is RATED less than A, but still investment grade (B or BBB) will be much higher 3-8% currently. This is all due to risk, since in bankruptcy bondholders usually get  paid pennies on the dollar (or nothing) so a default is the major risk.

(6) Loans to major corporations that are less than BBB are called "junk bonds" and boiler room sales of these sent folks to jail in the 80's.  Controversial, but regardless of whether you think sales should be allowed, rates on junk bonds can be really high, 7-15% range right now.  Note that these are still public companies with lots of disclosure, financials, etc. 

How on earth would you compare the promised yield on a government backed investment grade CD to a loan to GAW for staking?

[raskul]

i fail to see how any of this is a worthwhile investment.
all you are doing is continually giving money to GAW.

Constant cash flow . Not to mention that most ppl over there converted their script and sha hashlets to stakers. Sooner or later they want to buy hashlets again plus these lifetime haslets were all converted to 1.5, 3 and 6 month stakers, so GAW will have tons of "free" hashlets to sell back again. I'd buy GAW shares if I could .

once all this hype is over and those who have made money from the POW mining phase, there will be very few people who wish to continually line Garza's pockets.
This is where a ponzi like this will be able to keep paying, because there will be precious few who fall for it, and the bulk of the money will belong to Garza.
I'm astounded that you cannot see this.

[hazenyc]

Oh come on, Keynesian economics fails every time in the real world.

I'm not saying that. Just that the economist JM Keynes addressed the potential problem of hoarding money. Marx also addressed this incidentally (gold fetishism).

This has nothing to do with Keynes' claims of aggregate demand, deficit spending and so forth. Or any of Marx's other claims.

[Liquid71]

I prefer a cautious approach to my investments and yes, the 'locked-in' part of the whole staking process just puts me off entirely.

I can understand this point of view because paycoin is so new... but certificate of deposits are nothing new, and are generally considered to be some of the most conservative/cautious investments you can make.  And that is pretty much what a hashstaker is... it's a CD  A high-yield CD... but nonetheless... a CD.

I have to say, that would be true if this altcoin had a proven track record. you already state that it's new, and therefore, it is not a cautious investment for anyone to make, in any way.

Well, let's look at the comparison two ways...

1.  A regular bank giving a 1.5% APY is actually losing you money if inflation is 3% per year.  So... a bank CD is only cautious because your original deposit is coming back to you... but that doesn't mean you made any money.  You actually lost purchasing power, while the bank had a field day with your original deposit.

2.  A hashstaker is similar in that you are paid in XPY... not USD.  So it doesn't matter what the XPY->USD exchange rate is when the hashstaker matures/expires... you are getting the rate that GAW said you were going to get in XPY only.  The purchasing power of that XPY may be poor due to a poor XPY->USD exchange rate... similar to the purchasing power of your CD deposit being affected by inflation in #1 above.

The big question is if the exchange rate between XPY->USD can be effectively stabilized with the floor that GAW talks about for a significant amount of time.  No one knows the answer to this unfortunately.

Isn't the inflation rate on ponzi coin 400% per year? 

[anti_gaw_DONKEY_KONG_DK]

I sure hope this dude thought ahead and built a roomy doghouse out back:

http://i877.photobucket.com/albums/ab338/JaggedSteel1/GawBeliever_zpsff29f207.jpg

Maybe he should sell her jewelry and the TV while she is at work to "invest" as well? Interesting to note that "she" is going to work, and he, being the brains of the household is staying home to "wisely invest" all of her earnings......

im still laughing at this

[I_IZ_CEO]

Price of XPY down to .024 BTC on Coin Swap. So far slightly over 132,000 mined out of 500,000 coins to be mined. What happens on Friday when the 12,000,000 pre-mine become available to "investors" and HP holders? 12,5000,000 XPY at $20 each would require a fiat reserve of $250,000,000 if everyone sells. Josh claims a buy wall at $20 per XPY but if "investors" paid only $4.00 per XPY that would require 250,000,000 XPY sold to create the wall. That is 20X the number of XPY that will exist on Friday. Something is definitely out of whack here.  

Oh boy hope he is not going to dump all the BTC he was supposedly mining with our miners when the payouts dropped on Zen cloud. That would be a disaster for BTC. Robbing BTC to pay XPY. We also know he has PH somewhere mining something.

you make no sense.

sit and watch this just for 30 mins and see what kind of volume BTC trading does....
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/kraken/btceur

Garza doing any density of mining won't affect anything, whatsoever.

I might be wearing a tinfoil hat right now. But he did get a lot of BTC from cutting the Mining contracts so he could be sitting on a mountain of it.

we are currently seeing selloffs by whoever was fortunate enough to win that last FBI auction. these selloffs are done in dribs and drabs and have short term effect on the price, in dumps of ~100BTC at a time. This is my take on what is occurring in the marketplace currently. Then we have the normal dumps by the mining farms... put together it's a slow short term drop in btc price, but we are talking tens of thousands of BTC volume here...

I don't care which hat you are wearing but Garza has nowehere near the volume which is actually suppressing short term btc price.

Or.. I presume you can back up your statement with hard numbers?
thought not.

I dont think the auction buyers, Tim being one of them, are selling their bitcoins. Tims wallet:
28,156.51316529 BTC
https://blockchain.info/address/16cTyJLWbXQz3UZ3sYjy6A6VGX4sAqiEo1
I also think he is funding some start ups with his bitcoins.
I don't think Homero is selling his bitcoins too.. He might be selling his paycoins to get more bitcoins..

[puwaha]

Well, this is a problem for a currency if the system is inducing people to hoard instead of spend! In this case it is not a currency but a speculative asset.

It's inducing them to hoard instead of spending massive amounts.  People will spend.  It's what keeps the exchange rate semi-stable.  People will spend their "profits" after staking.  They will still continue to stake to keep a revenue stream.  They will spend any extra that they can't stake.

Junk bonds are also speculative assets that earn a yield for holding them. But you can't also use a debit card to buy a danish with part of your bond.
The two mandates just don't jive: 1. it's a currency go out and transact with them and spend! 2. if you hoard them you'll get rewarded.

You can't spend your staked XPY.  I think you are missing that point.

Keynes recognized the so-called purchasing power sink caused by hoarding money and how it can trigger financial crisis.

Ok... but there isn't a fiat controlling government here in XPY...  despite what the nay-sayers and boo-birds say.

[puwaha]

The plan from GAW's perspective is that people will keep restaking, and the few that cash out will only cash out a bit at a time.  The "market maker" staker/investors, will either have to restake their earned paycoins after 6 months in order to keep their prime controller status (because they have to maintain that 1% of all paycoins status to keep the controller status)... or sell their prime controller to another interested party.  They simply can't cash out their coins.

... and don't forget that the cheaper time limited stakers will have a fix lifetime. After that lifetime the steaker will disappear and you have to buy another one if you want to restake. Certainly you can use your paycoins for buying you new stakers. Much better business (for the seller) than selling everlasting hashlets .

You got it.

[Snail2]

once all this hype is over and those who have made money from the POW mining phase, there will be very few people who wish to continually line Garza's pockets.
This is where a ponzi like this will be able to keep paying, because there will be precious few who fall for it, and the bulk of the money will belong to Garza.
I'm astounded that you cannot see this.

I see, that's why I'm just "daytraing" XPY instead of hoarding it . Buying between 0.022-0.026 and then selling between 0.032-0.035 is a really good stuff. I've made more in the last two days than on Bittrex and Cryptsy together in the last two weeks .

(To be honest the religious tone on HT was a bit scary for me, and that was one of the reasons why I decided to keep a little distance.)

[raskul]

Price of XPY down to .024 BTC on Coin Swap. So far slightly over 132,000 mined out of 500,000 coins to be mined. What happens on Friday when the 12,000,000 pre-mine become available to "investors" and HP holders? 12,5000,000 XPY at $20 each would require a fiat reserve of $250,000,000 if everyone sells. Josh claims a buy wall at $20 per XPY but if "investors" paid only $4.00 per XPY that would require 250,000,000 XPY sold to create the wall. That is 20X the number of XPY that will exist on Friday. Something is definitely out of whack here.  

Oh boy hope he is not going to dump all the BTC he was supposedly mining with our miners when the payouts dropped on Zen cloud. That would be a disaster for BTC. Robbing BTC to pay XPY. We also know he has PH somewhere mining something.

you make no sense.

sit and watch this just for 30 mins and see what kind of volume BTC trading does....
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/markets/kraken/btceur

Garza doing any density of mining won't affect anything, whatsoever.

I might be wearing a tinfoil hat right now. But he did get a lot of BTC from cutting the Mining contracts so he could be sitting on a mountain of it.

we are currently seeing selloffs by whoever was fortunate enough to win that last FBI auction. these selloffs are done in dribs and drabs and have short term effect on the price, in dumps of ~100BTC at a time. This is my take on what is occurring in the marketplace currently. Then we have the normal dumps by the mining farms... put together it's a slow short term drop in btc price, but we are talking tens of thousands of BTC volume here...

I don't care which hat you are wearing but Garza has nowehere near the volume which is actually suppressing short term btc price.

Or.. I presume you can back up your statement with hard numbers?
thought not.

I dont think the auction buyers, Tim being one of them, are selling their bitcoins. Tims wallet:
28,156.51316529 BTC
https://blockchain.info/address/16cTyJLWbXQz3UZ3sYjy6A6VGX4sAqiEo1
I also think he is funding some start ups with his bitcoins.
I don't think Homero is selling his bitcoins too.. He might be selling his paycoins to get more bitcoins..

that was the 1st FBI auction. there has been another since and the buyer remained anonymous AFAIK

[wdl1908]

no it was not removed. The title changed.

https://hashtalk.org/topic/23822

Thank you.

On a slightly different note - what do you make of this continuing bragging about hashrate?

https://hashtalk.org/topic/23789

Not sure why it bothers me so much but it's just so bizarre and illogical... I mean BTC is still at nearly 300 PH/s, so doesn't anyone stop to think for a minute where 100 PH/s could come from?

The hashrate calculations on the blockchain are really not accurate I think. Also I think a lot of hashrate is coming from other SHA coins and some people are spinning up gear that has been dormant and/or unprofitable while mining bitcoin.

I've seen ebay listen that where selling SHA gear been taken down.

[raskul]

once all this hype is over and those who have made money from the POW mining phase, there will be very few people who wish to continually line Garza's pockets.
This is where a ponzi like this will be able to keep paying, because there will be precious few who fall for it, and the bulk of the money will belong to Garza.
I'm astounded that you cannot see this.

I see, that's why I'm just "daytraing" XPY instead of hoarding it . Buying between 0.022-0.026 and then selling between 0.032-0.035 is a really good stuff. I've made more in the last two days than on Bittrex and Cryptsy together in the last two weeks .

(To be honest the religious tone on HT was a bit scary for me, and that was one of the reasons why I decided to keep a little distance.)

forgive me, the sheer stench of the brainwashed and blinkered on this thread had me presume that you were invested in the full ponzi.
please accept my apologies if I spoke out of turn in any of my direct comments to you.

[hazenyc]

Well, this is a problem for a currency if the system is inducing people to hoard instead of spend! In this case it is not a currency but a speculative asset.

It's inducing them to hoard instead of spending massive amounts.  People will spend.  It's what keeps the exchange rate semi-stable.  People will spend their "profits" after staking.  They will still continue to stake to keep a revenue stream.  They will spend any extra that they can't stake.

Junk bonds are also speculative assets that earn a yield for holding them. But you can't also use a debit card to buy a danish with part of your bond.
The two mandates just don't jive: 1. it's a currency go out and transact with them and spend! 2. if you hoard them you'll get rewarded.

You can't spend your staked XPY.  I think you are missing that point.

Keynes recognized the so-called purchasing power sink caused by hoarding money and how it can trigger financial crisis.

Ok... but there isn't a fiat controlling government here in XPY...  despite what the nay-sayers and boo-birds say.

To the first point, if people only spend their earned interest they are merely rentiers, and not adding any economic value.
Second point, i know they can't spend the staked XPY and that is even worse. It's like locking it into a long-term CD except no bank is issuing a loan on the other side of that!
Third, Keynes was writing at a time when all gov't money was backed by gold. And yes, there is actually a controlling entity - GAW's reserve fund of fiat - to artificially prop up the market price. This is no different than deficit spending if you want to draw the analogy.

[puwaha]

How on earth would you compare the promised yield on a government backed investment grade CD to a loan to GAW for staking?

Are you arguing the merits of my comparison or the face?  From your reply, I think I know.

[Snail2]

Isn't the inflation rate on ponzi coin 400% per year?  

The same inflation rate as PPC (something like 4-5%)+ cca. 1% as XPY not destroying the transaction fees.