Bitcoin: Mark of the Beast?

[Xenland]

From my understanding of the "Mark of the Beast". I've had scholars tell me the "Mark" wont be anything that someone could just read from the bible and say "Oh that's the mark of the beast! Lets not participate in that!". I've been told it was something that won't be an actual mark either(which could be the possibility of Bitcoin addresses attached to your "legal identity").

As hardcore christian I use to be and believe all that stuff; Recent life changing experiences(including near death and ego death experiences) has shown me their is something far much greater on the other side then what is written from any book. With that said, this scenario of the government tracking my Bitcoins, from one traceable address would make life pretty difficult especially if I lost my private key or my wallet usb stick got lost or stolen.


PS. How to you prevent "Stolen" coins from reaching your address unknowingly?
Considering the government can send you tainted BTCs to anyone and then be say they have proof your doing business with a felon or terrorist or w/e scary people are called these days.

[edd]

PS. How to you prevent "Stolen" coins from reaching your address unknowingly?
Considering the government can send you tainted BTCs to anyone and then be say they have proof your doing business with a felon or terrorist or w/e scary people are called these days.

Anyone could do it.

1. Create a wallet that can't be traced back to yourself.
2. Report a bitcoin theft and send those coins to the anonymous wallet.
3. Wait for the coins to be marked as tainted.
4. Send a satoshi to anyone you want to get in trouble.
5. Report this "suspicious" activity and call for an investigation/audit.

[Xenland]

PS. How to you prevent "Stolen" coins from reaching your address unknowingly?
Considering the government can send you tainted BTCs to anyone and then be say they have proof your doing business with a felon or terrorist or w/e scary people are called these days.

Anyone could do it.

1. Create a wallet that can't be traced back to yourself.
2. Report a bitcoin theft and send those coins to the anonymous wallet.
3. Wait for the coins to be marked as tainted.
4. Send a satoshi to anyone you want to get in trouble.
5. Report this "suspicious" activity and call for an investigation/audit.

See i didn't even think of that -- and that is a very scary scenario -- my own neighbors could hate me and send me to jail nice point edd.

[cbeast]

PS. How to you prevent "Stolen" coins from reaching your address unknowingly?
Considering the government can send you tainted BTCs to anyone and then be say they have proof your doing business with a felon or terrorist or w/e scary people are called these days.

Anyone could do it.

1. Create a wallet that can't be traced back to yourself.
2. Report a bitcoin theft and send those coins to the anonymous wallet.
3. Wait for the coins to be marked as tainted.
4. Send a satoshi to anyone you want to get in trouble.
5. Report this "suspicious" activity and call for an investigation/audit.

See i didn't even think of that -- and that is a very scary scenario -- my own neighbors could hate me and send me to jail nice point edd.

Even worse, they could use some of that taint to send you a gift from Silk Road and an anonymous tip to the DEA.

[notme]

And besides, it doesn't matter how much hashing power the government gets. They can deny to confirm transactions all they want. All that matters is that there is enough hashing power delivered by others, to confirm any pending transactions. Governments adding more and more hashing power for themselves, does not in any way decrease the hasing power of others.

Every heard of difficulty?

That would just slow down non-government transactions, and make them more secure once confirmed by anyone. Kinda like the Mystery Miner who doesn't include new transactions.

This whole thread is silly. "Sorry officer, my computer got hacked and they stole all my bitcoins." An easy one-way gate into the black market will always be available. All the government would accomplish would be to legitimize cryptocurrency and broaden its use. Just for shits and giggles, I would intentionally poison some high-profile green addresses with tainted coins too. People who actually launder money normally through businesses would have a field day.

Ultimately, we would have people with brainwallets performing labor for one another, with no way to determine why they do what they do.

All I was saying is that Kazimir's statement that "Governments adding more and more hashing power for themselves, does not in any way decrease the hasing power of others." is false.  It does decrease the effectiveness of the hashing power of others.

But I agree this thread is stupid and I don't feel like arguing about our imaginations any longer.  MoonShadow wins biggest imagination, and I pray he loses when it comes to accuracy.

[||bit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cVFHl7aYuE

There ya go!

"Revelation 13:16-17
King James Version (KJV)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

This wouldn't stop one-on-one bartering (in secret if needed), but it would stop anyone from buying and selling with whatever is the accepted national or global currency [no online, telephone or storefront purchasing.. or whatever social medium that can be controlled...]. That's pretty rough. In such a society, paper currency would not be worth anything and therefore not bartering with, and so you would be pretty much resorting to trading tangible goods with people you know. ... With the escalated fear mongering on terrorism, financial crisis, frauds... and ID theft..etc... this will not be too hard to sell to governments in the end.

You might wonder how this could be enforced in the days that that scripture was written (~2000 years ago). Back then, it would obviously have to be  a tattoo. But what would the point be? How could that be authenticated? And what's to prevent side busineeses using the normal everyday [paper or coin] currency? No need to barter when you have the accepted currency. So, again, how could it be done at the time? Maybe, a mass of public records at every store front listing every citizen with a mark? A centurian guard at each register to verify/authenticate the mark? Only today does that technologically exist and make it practically possible.

It's interesting that in the KJV as quote above, the mark is "in" the right hand.  I don't know. It doesn't matter on or in the right hand. This may be a translation nuance as the KJV was using English in the year 1611...but it's a bit intriguing if it isn't that simple. 2000 years ago, a mark "in" the hand would make no sense. Today, tiny RFID chips as you know are already being, for whatever reasons, implanted in the meaty part of a person's hand between the thumb and index.

Other food for thought.....

Revelation 16:1-2 (KJV)
"1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

A little curious about the sores of those that accept the mark. Could it be physically related to the mark itelf? i.e. The RF in RFID? or the material it is made of.

||bit

[Bitcoin Oz]

The cops already plant DNA on crime scenes.

[Raoul Duke]

The cops already plant DNA on crime scenes.

And does it grow? 

[Bitcoin Oz]

If public servants had official bitcoin addresses I bet silk road would be sending them dirty coins just for the lulz. Oh I see charles schumer has coins from buying heroin.....and child porn.

[SgtSpike]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cVFHl7aYuE

There ya go!

"Revelation 13:16-17
King James Version (KJV)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."

This wouldn't stop one-on-one bartering (in secret if needed), but it would stop anyone from buying and selling with whatever is the accepted national or global currency [no online, telephone or storefront purchasing.. or whatever social medium that can be controlled...]. That's pretty rough. In such a society, paper currency would not be worth anything and therefore not bartering with, and so you would be pretty much resorting to trading tangible goods with people you know. ... With the escalated fear mongering on terrorism, financial crisis, frauds... and ID theft..etc... this will not be too hard to sell to governments in the end.

You might wonder how this could be enforced in the days that that scripture was written (~2000 years ago). Back then, it would obviously have to be  a tattoo. But what would the point be? How could that be authenticated? And what's to prevent side busineeses using the normal everyday [paper or coin] currency? No need to barter when you have the accepted currency. So, again, how could it be done at the time? Maybe, a mass of public records at every store front listing every citizen with a mark? A centurian guard at each register to verify/authenticate the mark? Only today does that technologically exist and make it practically possible.

It's interesting that in the KJV as quote above, the mark is "in" the right hand.  I don't know. It doesn't matter on or in the right hand. This may be a translation nuance as the KJV was using English in the year 1611...but it's a bit intriguing if it isn't that simple. 2000 years ago, a mark "in" the hand would make no sense. Today, tiny RFID chips as you know are already being, for whatever reasons, implanted in the meaty part of a person's hand between the thumb and index.

Other food for thought.....

Revelation 16:1-2 (KJV)
"1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

A little curious about the sores of those that accept the mark. Could it be physically related to the mark itelf? i.e. The RF in RFID? or the material it is made of.

||bit

"16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name."
That's the New King James Version, and it says "on".  I'd be interested to see the original Greek words, and maybe attempt to decipher whether it truly should be in or on?

Regardless, it does say "the name of the beast or the number of its name" is what the mark will be made up of.  So, how exactly could the mark be unique for each person if the Bible explicitly states that it will be the name/number of the beast?

[Bitcoin Oz]

http://arstechnica.com/science/2007/09/rfid-implants-linked-to-cancer-the-lowdown/

This is one reason RFID implants will never go ahead no matter how many politicians have wet dreams about them.

[||bit]

"16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name."
That's the New King James Version, and it says "on".  I'd be interested to see the original Greek words, and maybe attempt to decipher whether it truly should be in or on?

Regardless, it does say "the name of the beast or the number of its name" is what the mark will be made up of.  So, how exactly could the mark be unique for each person if the Bible explicitly states that it will be the name/number of the beast?

Yeah, the Greek would be interesting.

Anyway, the scripture describes the mark in one way, but I don't think that scripture limits it in the respect of having any identifying component per individual. For example, any U.S. dollar bill you find has generic markings that we use to identify what it is, yet each bill also includes unique numbers that identify any one bill from another.  Regaarding the mark of the beast, as a mark that solely designated allegiance or worship, how could that kind of mark make commerce enforecable in the way that people could not buy or sell without it? I don't think such a generic mark would prevent buying and selling of unmarked people. Unless, of course, it is meant in a legal sense. I guess there could be a severe penalty [death?] to merchants if they were caught of course. That would sway a merchant from selling to an unmarked person, just in case it was a random check by authorities. But that woudl require a lot of resources and it would not be popular with people. It would not stop merchants from selling to unmarked people he/she knew personally weren't a risk to buy from or sell to. i.e. It would just be a black market, unmarked peopel having to buy/sell food, yet still having use of the accepted form of cash. So, we can ask the question: "What must be, for what is, to be what it is?", And I can't say it "must be", but it seems the best [most doable] answer is that an identifying component would be associated with the mark.

I wonder if Isaac Newton [alive 1624 - 1727] wrote on this. He believed in scripture, and  prophecy. And he wrote extensively on it.  For example, in his writings, he used a different prophetic passage to argue that it must mean people would one day be able to travel at speeds of at least 50mph. In his day, and all days prior of course, the fasted mode of travel for man was on a horse. A horse can run a sustained pace of maybe 35mph (though I'm not sure how far that can be sustained). Anyway, Voltaire apparently ridiculed Newton about that possibility, and that his Chrisitan beliefs were affecting his reason. Of course, we know the rest of the story. Anyway, I'm not motivated to research it just yet, but it would be interesting to know if he did comment/write on it.

||bit

[Kluge]

http://arstechnica.com/science/2007/09/rfid-implants-linked-to-cancer-the-lowdown/

This is one reason RFID implants will never go ahead no matter how many politicians have wet dreams about them.

There've also been studies showing cell phones being linked to cancer. Doesn't stop the government from issuing free phones.

[Gabi]

I dunno about the thread but i say it is time to launch a new Crusade against the evil to defend the Christendom!

Let's do like this and remember, god wills it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuoLzx0mcho

[crazy_rabbit]

I thought I would bring this topic back following this article on CNN:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57581952-256/heres-why-bitcoin-is-the-future-of-money/

Something I brought up at the last conference was that the more government and 'normal' people get into bitcoin, the less power the 'core bit coiners' (the idealists) will have in determining the future of bitcoin. Bitcoin is free an democratic society- at the moment. Will it always be so?

[jubalix]

how would they force a business to use an address?

[stevegee58]

My BFL order number has a 666 in it. 

[giszmo]

I really see a problem at the moment as Fincen regulation kind of forces you to stay in Bitcoin (not trade for fiat), we have kind of a problem to bootstrap bitcoin further. Sure, so far it is just one country and just a joke of a regulation when it comes to enforcement but this fiat-gateway is what we have to get rid of asap.

Think of it: If you want to cut the state out of the loop, you have to be "all in" and do all your business in bitcoins. A long way to go for most people to do so. If you are all in and only cash out for your daily needs, you touch exchanges that are under total control by national states. This can only be broken by concepts like zerocoin or some smart and risky laundering of coins with existing methods.

I did not read much into zerocoin but the concept is very very intriguing and according to all I know about zero knowledge protocols (pun not intended ) this could really work so I hope it gets implemented asap!

[Eich]

PS. How to you prevent "Stolen" coins from reaching your address unknowingly?
Considering the government can send you tainted BTCs to anyone and then be say they have proof your doing business with a felon or terrorist or w/e scary people are called these days.

Anyone could do it.

1. Create a wallet that can't be traced back to yourself.
2. Report a bitcoin theft and send those coins to the anonymous wallet.
3. Wait for the coins to be marked as tainted.
4. Send a satoshi to anyone you want to get in trouble.
5. Report this "suspicious" activity and call for an investigation/audit.

See i didn't even think of that -- and that is a very scary scenario -- my own neighbors could hate me and send me to jail nice point edd.

Even worse, they could use some of that taint to send you a gift from Silk Road and an anonymous tip to the DEA.

Wow this is actually fairly easy to do! woooo! dont get on a fellow BTC'ers bad side or you might get some MDMA sent over to you wrapped in child porn.

What about Zerocoin? isnt this type of thing avoidable by anonymizing all transactions?

Also, i read somewhere on this board something about leaving a back door open for "authorities" in case any fraud or other illegal activity occurs while using zerocoin... facepalm

[Explodicle]

If you are all in and only cash out for your daily needs, you touch exchanges that are under total control by national states. This can only be broken by concepts like zerocoin or some smart and risky laundering of coins with existing methods.

Regulated bank transfer exchanges are convenient, but worst case scenario we could use a web of trust like Bitcoin-OTC or Ripple and exchange physical cash.