███ Stay away from GAWminers.com / Paycoin / Paybase - Mineral - SCAM ! ███

[LiteCoinGuy]

If I can agree that coinfire is exaggerating their claims can you agree their are some serious concerns with GAWminers that need to be addressed before anyone spends money on their cloud mining or ICO?

To be honest, Ive not been following the debate at all. Its only when I started compiling my cloudmining ponzi score list that I even looked in to GAW. Based on criteria I set forth there, yes there certainly are red flags. And I wouldnt be one bit surprised if there are many more, but I would like to get facts to base my opinion on, not "exaggerations" (which I think is too mild a term for what coinfire did if they had no source other than whats been posted here).

now you can. start at page one   . i would like to see more investigation  

[inBitweTrust]

To be honest, Ive not been following the debate at all. Its only when I started compiling my cloudmining ponzi score list that I even looked in to GAW. Based on criteria I set forth there, yes there certainly are red flags. And I wouldnt be one bit surprised if there are many more, but I would like to get facts to base my opinion on, not "exaggerations" (which I think is too mild a term for what coinfire did if they had no source other than whats been posted here).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860400.0

FYI, your contributions are helpful but no where near thorough enough to pronounce any companies as "Legit "

All of your "legit" companies should be classified as "Probably legit" or "Possibly legit"
All of your "Probably legit" companies should be classified as "suspicious"

Claiming any of these companies are legit without a thorough independent audit and when their is so much more profit to be made in fractional reserve mining than backing up all purchases with actual ASIC's  is misleading as well. I understand you have clarified yourself with the disclaimer but that should be re-enforced by the categories being appropriately named.

I highly suspect that almost all if not all cloud mining operations are running as fractional reserve mining operations.

But thank you for your contributions regardless.

[Puppet]

I have no interest in digging much deeper than I have: try to separate the obvious ponzi scams from companies that actually mine and that subject themselves to legal action. If you read my disclaimer, you'll see that what I mean with "legit" is not exactly the same as a SEC stamp of approval, but that it shows  the company in question has given enough evidence to reasonablly assume its more than just a quick money grab.

Doing anything beyond that would require a mandate that I simply do not have.

Let me put it this way; any company I listed there as "legit", I would be taking bets they will not just run off with customer funds in the next 6 or 12 month. Im quite willing to take the opposing bet for any company I listed as "ponzi". Im not taking bets either way for the ones inbetween.

[inBitweTrust]

If you'd like to see investigation why are you straight up saying "stay away"? Either you are investigating the matter and taking a neutral stance or attacking and judging. According to the topic of this thread and your posts it's the latter. You are even repeating it in your signature.

There are enough red flags to stay away pending further investigation. This applies for Bitcoin businesses and other businesses equally.
If someone accuses a business of being dishonest, misleading and a ponzi scheme than I think "stay away" is fantastic advice until the claims can be dis-proven either through an investigation or the owners themselves addressing the criticism.

"Stay away" is great advice for all of cloud mining as well, but some companies more than others.

[EvilPanda]

Recently the CEO of GAW Miners claimed publicly that the company and he personally have sealed up partnerships and deals with Target, Amazon, and Walmart about the coin and the company.
( -> not a single proof about that claim. )
Coin Fire has learned these recent claims are stretching the truth or outright lies.

And what proof has coinfire provided to support this claim? I haven't seen a proof of the CEO saying this.

did you read anything that i posted?
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/hashcoin-hashbase-will-bring-bitcoin-mainstream-interview-with-gawminers-josh-garza/

The article you linked contains neither the words Target, Amazon, nor Walmart...

cant find it in this article (maybe it was edited because google finds that quote too) but you can do your own research    ?

The essence of this FUD:
-He said it in this article!
-Where?
-Here can't you read?
-There's nothing there!
-Ok, I can't find it, but I still think it's there, somewhere!


You wan't US to look for a proof that YOU were right? Maybe you do your own research before you call someone a scammer?

[inBitweTrust]

You wan't US to look for a proof that YOU were right? Maybe you do your own research before you call someone a scammer?

Here you go :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVXPFVl0r0M&feature=youtu.be&t=6h7m20s

IMHO both Josh and coinfire.cf are being, at minimum, misleading.

Now that you have seen the facts, do you agree with the red flags?

[Sona]

I can see theres a lot of stuff piling up, but whats their response to all this?

are they going to up being another mt.gox 2.0 version, but in cloud minig edition.

just saw that youtube video mark, he does mention about going into major retail stores.. during the 6 hr long google + video.

[EvilPanda]

You wan't US to look for a proof that YOU were right? Maybe you do your own research before you call someone a scammer?

Here you go :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVXPFVl0r0M&feature=youtu.be&t=6h7m20s

IMHO both Josh and coinfire.cf are being, at minimum, misleading.

Now that you have seen the facts, do you agree with the red flags?

What facts?
He said "we are working on getting it to mainstream stores" and "it won't be long before you see it in (store names)".

What the OP claims is "he personally have sealed up partnerships and deals with Target, Amazon, and Walmart"

I haven't heard such statement from GAW CEO. I think this has been manipulated by Coinfire and is now repeated by people.
Of course I won't deny it if you manage to prove he said it. Until now I haven't seen such proof, but strangely everybody including OP are showing that article, which doesn't have a word about Wallmart, Target or Amazon in it.

Edit: I just saw the OP is posting a link to this thread everywhere he can, he even started a whole new scam accusation thread (although he wasn't scammed) to link it to this thread... I'm speachless 

[inBitweTrust]

What facts?
He said "we are working on getting it to mainstream stores" and "it won't be long before you see it in (store names)".

What the OP claims is "he personally have sealed up partnerships and deals with Target, Amazon, and Walmart"

Now you are leaving out some of the details. He also said he is working with them and it won't be long before you see them in mainstream stores.

Working with means something different than working towards. Additionally, it won't be long before you see them in major retailers supports the idea of a deal already in progress as well.

Perhaps he misspoke, perhaps he exaggerated... either way it is misleading, but I can certainly see why you are rationalizing this behavior.

[wadili89]

In the end, are they still paying out their customers? GAWminers looked sketchy initially, but they have been here for a long time now and are paying out regularly.

[inBitweTrust]

In the end, are they still paying out their customers? GAWminers looked sketchy initially, but they have been here for a long time now and are paying out regularly.

The same thing is said with all ponzi operations until they can no longer sustain themselves. Fractional reserve mining by design can go on quite a while as long as a certain level of growth is sustained. One or a few months of slowdown and it can all come crashing to an end.

The red flags and investigations are meant to mitigate this from happening or more people from being hurt.

I wish more questions were raised with Mtgox when they were still paying out their customers withdrawls.

[darkangel11]

Was it proven that they are a ponzi or doing this fractional reserve mining?
Somebody saying that you will see his product in Wallmart doesn't even tell if he's a liar. For all we know he can be overconfident or even telling the truth.

[maildir]

I saw it myself he 100% said he had established relationships with Walmart, Target and Amazon and you would be able to spend paycoin directly with them. Clearly it has been deleted, but their forum is riddled with bewildered responses after the fact about this.

Doesn't really matter he is a liar and a scammer.  It isn't a "mistake" or an "exaggeration" it is intentional deceit to get people on board, and once onboard, declare whoops my bad. What I really meant was...

You do not make a critical mistake such as this and historically with his MO by trying to slime Cantor Fitzgerald into the picture -- when they are not -- is confirmation of his devious ways.

Simply put he is a what is commonly known as a piece of shit.

[ScryptAsic]

In the end, are they still paying out their customers? GAWminers looked sketchy initially, but they have been here for a long time now and are paying out regularly.

The same thing is said with all ponzi operations until they can no longer sustain themselves. Fractional reserve mining by design can go on quite a while as long as a certain level of growth is sustained. One or a few months of slowdown and it can all come crashing to an end.

The red flags and investigations are meant to mitigate this from happening or more people from being hurt.

I wish more questions were raised with Mtgox when they were still paying out their customers withdrawls.

What exactly do you mean by fractional reserve mining? Do you mean to imply that they sell 3 TH/s for every 1 TH/s of mining equipment they actually own? If this was the case then what would the point of this be? I would think they would either have mining equipment that backs up all of their mining contracts sold or have no mining equipment at all; I think having only a fraction of mining equipment to backup the mining contracts would make very little sense and your claim that this is what they are doing only degrades your credibility

[inBitweTrust]

What exactly do you mean by fractional reserve mining? Do you mean to imply that they sell 3 TH/s for every 1 TH/s of mining equipment they actually own? If this was the case then what would the point of this be? I would think they would either have mining equipment that backs up all of their mining contracts sold or have no mining equipment at all; I think having only a fraction of mining equipment to backup the mining contracts would make very little sense and your claim that this is what they are doing only degrades your credibility

I am not the only one who suspects this is going on :

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/gavin-andresen-suspects-ponzi-schemes-bitcoin-cloud-mining/

I hate to be so explicit for something that is obvious but here it goes:

A cloud mining company has 3 options(and I suspect most are taking option 1 and 2 ) since those are the most profitable options

1) 100% Ponzi Operation, easy to setup and operate and thus easy to undercut all the other companies as. All they need is a few shill accounts, a cheap website, and an affiliate program and they can pay affiliates and and take a cut before payouts. Since cloud mining payouts rarely have a 100% ROI and are over multiple months they even have more of a buffer even if their growth slows before being forced to shutdown.  
  
Certain cloud mining operations have already been exposed and shutdown doing exactly this.

2) fractional reserve mining - This group are either legit companies which started with 100% hashing to back up their clients but started padding their hashes to increase profitability or companies who occasionally make a large purchase to lend credibility to their claims of having 100% hashing but never intended to have 100% hashing power to back up their claims. Some of these companies are interested in profiting directly off of mining and selling bitcoins themselves but will certainly never turn away a contract even if they don't have the hashing power to back up their claims because they usually have more expensive contracts and thus are unlikely to ever have to payout more than they take in so might as well grab free money. These companies don't mind mining for its own profitability sake but they cannot always secure fair price from the ASIC manufacturers.

3) cloud mining with 100% hashing backing up what they sell

Since most contracts rarely have a ROI simply taking the cash and slowly giving back a slightly less amount of cash is far more profitable than buying ASIC's where they have to install them, maintain them, pay for electrical costs, and have all sorts of liabilities.

If a company isn't doing either 1 or 2 than why aren't they stepping forward and provided better evidence. Few have even offered and this would be a chance for them to instantly gain the credibility of the community and garner more contracts.

[Hazir]

I guess it is not recommended to trust just anything on the internet, especially something that is not backed by solid evidence and argumentation.

[inBitweTrust]

I guess it is not recommended to trust just anything on the internet, especially something that is not backed by solid evidence and argumentation.

Correct, and the problem is compounded by the fact that anyone would be tempted by the higher profit margins with these activities and the fact that these companies have been caught doing things and saying things which are questionable.

I.E... companies that have high affiliate payouts are very likely ponzi's as the math doesn't add up with razor thin profit margins in the mining space.

[ScryptAsic]

@inBitweTrust - Yes I very much understand 1 and 3 as they are either a ponzi or they are not one. But I don't understand why any cloud mining company would ever want to go the route of #2. I guess it would be to give themselves credibility when ASIC companies say they have received a large order from them, but I would think the initial payments would give them more credibility.

[inBitweTrust]

@inBitweTrust - Yes I very much understand 1 and 3 as they are either a ponzi or they are not one. But I don't understand why any cloud mining company would ever want to go the route of #2. I guess it would be to give themselves credibility when ASIC companies say they have received a large order from them, but I would think the initial payments would give them more credibility.

Its not that they oppose mining for profit, but sometimes they cannot secure the ASIC chips in the needed quantities in time or at the right price to make it worthwhile.

The fact that they can show some equipment and have a better reputation allows them to charge more so securing miners is important for bolstering their reputation too.
 
Smaller or new cloud mining companies are much more likely to be straight up ponzi schemes because they have to be to compete and because they cannot afford to buy chips in enough quantity in order to break even while paying out affiliates. The math just doesn't add up.

Established/larger mining companies have to have some hashing because they have more employees as well, thus need to account for some miners otherwise it will quickly leak out.

[ScryptAsic]

@inBitweTrust - Yes I very much understand 1 and 3 as they are either a ponzi or they are not one. But I don't understand why any cloud mining company would ever want to go the route of #2. I guess it would be to give themselves credibility when ASIC companies say they have received a large order from them, but I would think the initial payments would give them more credibility.

Its not that they oppose mining for profit, but sometimes they cannot secure the ASIC chips in the needed quantities in time or at the right price to make it worthwhile.

I guess it depends on the morals of the owners. If the owners refuse to sell additional mining contracts until they can secure the hardware to backup the contracts then this would not happen. If the owners are good at what they do then they would be able to secure enough hardware at a fast enough pace so that they will never need to turn off sales.

The fact that they can show some equipment and have a better reputation allows them to charge more so securing miners is important for bolstering their reputation too.

I guess this is true, however it does not take much to "show" equipment, as they could pretty easily fake pictures of "their" equipment and/or make what little equipment they have look like a lot more. I wouldn't really consider this "fractional reserve" mining but rather the company investing a little bit of money in order to make themselves look legit when they are really not.

Smaller or new cloud mining companies are much more likely to be straight up ponzi schemes because they have to be to compete and because they cannot afford to buy chips in enough quantity in order to break even while paying out affiliates. The math just doesn't add up.

I would say that most small/new cloud mining companies will turn out to be outright scams, but I generally agree with your premise.

Established/larger mining companies have to have some hashing because they have more employees as well, thus need to account for some miners otherwise it will quickly leak out.

This is not necessarily true. They could have a lot of shillls who are controlled by a small group of people who are all in on a potential scam/ponzi