permabulls not only lost the control over this section-in fact they are extinct

[ChuckBuck]

Hmm...I don't see anything 6 confirmations on Coinbase at Point of Sale:

https://www.coinbase.com/docs/merchant_tools/point_of_sale

Don't see anything about 6 confirmations on Coinkite Point of Sale, neither:

https://coinkite.com/faq/terminal

How does this work out with confirmations, would the consumer have to wait 10 minutes?

We can immediately confirm amounts from customers that are using Coinkite's accounts, and in other cases, we offer the choice to the retailer as to how many confirmations they require. We feel that if you are transacting small amounts, then accepting zero confirmations (for instant payment) may be a reasonable risk.

Oh well...fudsters gonna fud.

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[NotLambchop]

Hmm...I don't see anything 6 confirmations on Coinbase at Point of Sale:

https://www.coinbase.com/docs/merchant_tools/point_of_sale

Here:

Regarding paying with Bitcoin, merchant adoption etc., etc, let's look at reality.
Dell is the hobbyhorse that often gets trotted out when merchant adoption is brought up.  Let's check what actually happens & how instantaneous it is:
...
Transactions verified by Bitcoin network.
Once a Bitcoin transaction is submitted to the Bitcoin network, it may take an hour or longer for the Bitcoin network to fully verify the transaction. A transaction is not complete until it is fully verified. Dell has no control over this timeframe imposed by the Bitcoin network.

Taken from http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/campaigns/bitcoin-terms-and-conditions

Don't see anything about 6 confirmations on Coinkite Point of Sale, neither:

https://coinkite.com/faq/terminal

How does this work out with confirmations, would the consumer have to wait 10 minutes?

We can immediately confirm amounts from customers that are using Coinkite's accounts, and in other cases, we offer the choice to the retailer as to how many confirmations they require. We feel that if you are transacting small amounts, then accepting zero confirmations (for instant payment) may be a reasonable risk.

...

Do you understand what you just posted?  Transactions with Coinkite's CC are instantaneous, and the retailer is free to take any risk it wants when payments are made directly with BTC.
In other words, when you sell me something, you are free to not wait for any confirms, or even take my word that I'll send the BTC later--no skin off Coinkite's nose

[sgbett]

...
You are obviously new to the fact you don't *need* six confirms.

You do if you don't want to get screwed.  If Coinbase wants six, so do I
..snip>

The cost to the consumer is only one half of 'cheap'.

you want 6? why, because you don't know any better? zero conf is a thing that someone as well informed as you should know about.

If you're going to reply to a post, have the decency to read through the thread to check if the issue was previously addressed.  It has, and though the bleeding heart liberal in me insist that I cater to the least of men, the pragmatist in me insists that I not bother.
If you still have questions after reading the thread several times, I'll apologise to my pragmatic half & explain shit to you.
..snip..

the parent said "its cheap" you added the caveat "For the consumer" then proceeded to disprove the parent based on your caveat. you did nothing to disprove the parents assertion that *its cheap*

[NotLambchop]

^
Is Coinbase as ill-informed as I am?  Why don't they forgo waiting for confirms
Did you at least do your reading?

[hacknoid]

... Yes, the merchants I have purchased from have used a processor (BitPay in fact, is what I remember).  Which is why, as I said, the transaction for me, the consumer, was instantaneous.  It was an online transaction, so the moment it went through I was free to go on with my day.

If you used a payment processor, you did not buy with Bitcoin.  What you did was find the most convoluted way of buying with fiat, something Rube Goldberg would be proud of.
It goes something like this:

Buy BTC with fiat, possibly pay fee.
Send BTC to the payment provider, who will
convert it to fiat & pay the merchant.

Such convenient.  Wow.

Actually, it was very convenient.  And in fact I did pay with bitcoins - that I mined.   If the merchant chooses to keep those as bitcoins, then in fact there is zero fiat involved.  One of the merchants was bitcoinshop, which I believe did indeed keep the coins as such.  It really irks me all these people who are like "you used a payment processor so you didn't really use bitcoin".  Well, my bitcoin balance on the wallet went down by the amount I used, and I received something in return, so to me - I paid in bitcoin.  Where those coins came from is irrelevant to that fact.

Oh, and in fact for other purchases I did actually saved more money - but maybe that's inconvenient for you.  Here's what I did, since the opportunity was there:

Buy BTC with CAD. 
Spend BTC on item (price converted from USD)
Benefit from difference in BTC exchange rate AND USD/CAD exchange rate.
Result - saved myself 15-20% on the purchase price.  Bonus: didn't have to use my CC number again on the internet.

Since you went all-caps on the word "MANY," I feel I should address this first:  Did you know that there are MANY companies, both large and small, that do not accept BTC?
Well, now you know.

Yes I am well aware.  The number that do is increasing every day.   This is just one example of it following the same trend that websites did. <snip the BTC is like interwebs bull>

Regardless of what you believe will happen in the future, we're not talking about one of the possible ways for the probability wave to collapse.  We're talking now.
Now the number of merchants accepting BTC is nowhere near those accepting CC.

Now that is a humorous argument!  Don't use something until it's ubiquitous.  Well, I guess if you want to live in the dark ages, that's fine.

...I don't believe inflation is required, however, since not all salaries go up to match inflation.  In fact, mine has not kept up with inflation for at least the past 6 years.

No, not all salaries keep up with inflation, because not communism.  Since yours hasn't, I suggest you get good.

Get good... what?

...
The security of the technology IS important - if it were possible for someone to easily steal or counterfeit bitcoins that would be a big deal - but they can't.  And many experts have tried.  So it's important to realize that the weak point is not the technology, but the human factor.  And no more so than with other forms of digital payment.

So if you are careful with your bitcoins and treat them as securely as you would a handful of cash, then you shouldn't have a problem.  You won't have to worry about someone stealing the credit card database from a large retailer and then you having to replace your card.  Sure the CC company will cover the fraudulent transactions, but its still a pain in the butt.  Especially if you happen to be travelling and charging stuff on your CC when it gets denied.  Ever have that happen?  That's certainly not convenient.

So someone hacking into a server to get CC #s is the fault of CC technology?  Not a flaw in the overly technology or a lapse of security?  OK, but the consumer nonetheless doesn't lose his money, unlike the endless list of Bitcoin "hacks" from TF to Ukyo to Mt.Gox etc., etc., etc.

If you feel the inconvenience of dealing with the CC company is no worse than having all your money disappeared, I got nothing.

Wait... so you're saying CCs are safe even though companies involved get hacked... uh, yeah...  The fact that CC companies will reimburse consumers clearly says something about how much fees they collect.  Oh, and there are documented cases of hacks on bitcoin companies where the company did actually reimburse the customers, so don't say it doesn't happen.

There is no recourse if someone steals your coins, just as there is no recourse if someone steals your cash.

If you keep all of your money in cash, you're doing it wrong.  You probably keep all your coin in an online wallet with a freshly-registered domain & no ssl, amirite?

Get yourself a few CC and live like a twenty-first century human being

Where did I say I keep all my money in cash?  That's some serious clutching so got going there...

I will admit that I like CCs for some things - I always pay my bill when it comes, and don't do cash withdrawals on the card, so they don't collect from me directly.  I get points for using the card, but of course these types of reward cards hurt the merchants even more with higher fees.  The day is coming when these "perks" are going to be going away from the cards, mark my words.  For now I am happy with them, but they won't last forever.  The CC companies see the competition, so they will have to adapt.

I personally like when I can pay with Bitcoin and not have to dig out my CC once again.  You may find it funny, but not giving out more information actually makes me feel safer.

[NotLambchop]

... Yes, the merchants I have purchased from have used a processor (BitPay in fact, is what I remember).  Which is why, as I said, the transaction for me, the consumer, was instantaneous.  It was an online transaction, so the moment it went through I was free to go on with my day.

If you used a payment processor, you did not buy with Bitcoin.  What you did was find the most convoluted way of buying with fiat, something Rube Goldberg would be proud of.
It goes something like this:

Buy BTC with fiat, possibly pay fee.
Send BTC to the payment provider, who will
convert it to fiat & pay the merchant.

Such convenient.  Wow.

Actually, it was very convenient.  And in fact I did pay with bitcoins - that I mined.   If the merchant chooses to keep those as bitcoins, then in fact there is zero fiat involved.

Forgive me.  I forgot some of the steps in your Goldbergian scheme.  Allow me to rectify:

Buy mining gear with fiat
Buy electricity with fiat
Waste time mining Bitcoin you could have bought for significantly less fiat.
Send BTC to the payment provider, who will
convert it to fiat & pay the merchant.

There.  I think we're good now.

Contrary to what your salary failing to keep up with inflation (for 6 years!) would suggest, you're a smart & capable guy who clearly don't need no help from me or no grownup.  You'll do just fine all by yourself.  

  ~Happy Investing!

[2dogs]

Yes. Make a donation to the Save a Perma-bull Foundation with your soon-to-be worthless bitcoins!



1JAABMnMjouubssAuHHmv5US5oDw8J22fx

Best post I've seen - should win an award!   

[sgbett]

^
Is Coinbase as ill-informed as I am?  Why don't they forgo waiting for confirms
Did you at least do your reading?

6 confirms is no guarantee. its just an arbitrary 'acceptable risk' metric that coinbase has chosen. It could just as well be 4 or 13 or 2.

However, if you grok zeroconf, you'll see why it can quite satisfactorily be zero.

If you are receiving a million dollars from an untrusted third party then sure, you might decide you want, say 10 confirmations.

If you are sending $100 to your mate, or buying a coffee, or transferring from your savings paper wallet to your spending bread wallet, or surfing silk road 2 or 3 or whatever its up to now... all of these are pretty much 100% candidates for zeroconf i.e. within seconds you can be sure enough.

In fairness though, there are a whole bunch of use cases in between. That is where it comes down to a bit of personal preference, if you look at a comparable (amount/trust) transaction in the existing monetary system then I would say btc is pretty compelling in terms of speed, though of course you may disagree!

You can insist that you want 6 confirms for *every* transaction, but I don't think its fair to claim that its absolutely necessary, and that this negates the 'bitcoin is fast' argument.

If you draw the chart of "confidence transaction is legit" vs time, even the first confirmation adds relatively little to the already high probability that the transaction is just fine.

Comparable to the chance your $100 bill is fake? Or that you aren't going to get a chargeback? or that a check is going to bounce?

I dunno but it wouldn't surprise me if zeroconf came out ahead in terms of risk. *shrugs*

[brg444]

^
Is Coinbase as ill-informed as I am?  Why don't they forgo waiting for confirms
Did you at least do your reading?

6 confirms is no guarantee. its just an arbitrary 'acceptable risk' metric that coinbase has chosen. It could just as well be 4 or 13 or 2.

However, if you grok zeroconf, you'll see why it can quite satisfactorily be zero.

If you are receiving a million dollars from an untrusted third party then sure, you might decide you want, say 10 confirmations.

If you are sending $100 to your mate, or buying a coffee, or transferring from your savings paper wallet to your spending bread wallet, or surfing silk road 2 or 3 or whatever its up to now... all of these are pretty much 100% candidates for zeroconf i.e. within seconds you can be sure enough.

In fairness though, there are a whole bunch of use cases in between. That is where it comes down to a bit of personal preference, if you look at a comparable (amount/trust) transaction in the existing monetary system then I would say btc is pretty compelling in terms of speed, though of course you may disagree!

You can insist that you want 6 confirms for *every* transaction, but I don't think its fair to claim that its absolutely necessary, and that this negates the 'bitcoin is fast' argument.

If you draw the chart of "confidence transaction is legit" vs time, even the first confirmation adds relatively little to the already high probability that the transaction is just fine.

Comparable to the chance your $100 bill is fake? Or that you aren't going to get a chargeback? or that a check is going to bounce?

I dunno but it wouldn't surprise me if zeroconf came out ahead in terms of risk. *shrugs*

because Lambtroll likes drawings

[sgbett]

thanks brg444. pix = happen

[hacknoid]

... Yes, the merchants I have purchased from have used a processor (BitPay in fact, is what I remember).  Which is why, as I said, the transaction for me, the consumer, was instantaneous.  It was an online transaction, so the moment it went through I was free to go on with my day.

If you used a payment processor, you did not buy with Bitcoin.  What you did was find the most convoluted way of buying with fiat, something Rube Goldberg would be proud of.
It goes something like this:

Buy BTC with fiat, possibly pay fee.
Send BTC to the payment provider, who will
convert it to fiat & pay the merchant.

Such convenient.  Wow.

Actually, it was very convenient.  And in fact I did pay with bitcoins - that I mined.   If the merchant chooses to keep those as bitcoins, then in fact there is zero fiat involved.

Forgive me.  I forgot some of the steps in your Goldbergian scheme.  Allow me to rectify:

Buy mining gear with fiat
Buy electricity with fiat
Waste time mining Bitcoin you could have bought for significantly less fiat.
Send BTC to the payment provider, who will
convert it to fiat & pay the merchant.

There.  I think we're good now.

Contrary to what your salary failing to keep up with inflation (for 6 years!) would suggest, you're a smart & capable guy who clearly don't need no help from me or no grownup.  You'll do just fine all by yourself.  

  ~Happy Investing!

  Ha ha ha!  That's great - love it.

Well, keep believing your view of things, and I'll stick with the truth.  In the end, I actually enjoyed this exchange - kinda surprised me.  Thanks for the rebuttals.

Cheers...

[NotLambchop]

^
Is Coinbase as ill-informed as I am?  Why don't they forgo waiting for confirms
Did you at least do your reading?

6 confirms is no guarantee. <snip>

You can ignore this again if you want, but I'll just leave it here because it states how long IRL Bitcoin transactions take.
This text is taken from the Dell website.  Dell is a merchant "accepting Bitcoin."  Can you think of a better example?  I won't even dwell on the fact that Dell actually accepts cash--it's Dell's payment processor, Coinbase, that accepts Bitcoin.  
One final word:  Keep your eyes peeled for the the emboldened, red text--it might be something relevant!
Here we go now:

Regarding paying with Bitcoin, merchant adoption etc., etc, let's look at reality.
Dell is the hobbyhorse that often gets trotted out when merchant adoption is brought up.  Let's check what actually happens & how instantaneous it is:
...
Transactions verified by Bitcoin network.
Once a Bitcoin transaction is submitted to the Bitcoin network, it may take an hour or longer for the Bitcoin network to fully verify the transaction. A transaction is not complete until it is fully verified. Dell has no control over this timeframe imposed by the Bitcoin network.
Taken from http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/campaigns/bitcoin-terms-and-conditions

Just in case you missed it, here it is again:

"it may take an hour or longer for the Bitcoin network to fully verify the transaction. A transaction is not complete until it is fully verified."

Both Dell and Coinbase could benefit greatly from your expertise, and it is your civic duty to call them without delay!
Whatever you do, don't let some dumb secretary hanging up dissuade you from completing your quest!  Let them laugh, sgbett, but dial again and again!
Godspeed!

[Torque]

I like how LambFuckChop eventually turns every single thread here into his own personal soapbox.

No one here gives 2 fks what you think LambieFucktard, so please go away.

[NotLambchop]

^How about a hug, bro?

[smalltimer]

guys this shit thread started with some intelligent comments but went out of hand quickly. lol

You are such rednecks, people.



the credit card shill is the best really  

summary of btctalk:
trolls trolling trolls

[Ibian]

What's the point of this? Everyone involved in the last few pages have been around long enough to know all the arguments and counterarguments being thrown around. This isn't a discussion about technology and facts, it's just fighting for its own sake.

[JimboToronto]

What's the point of this? Everyone involved in the last few pages have been around long enough to know all the arguments and counterarguments being thrown around. This isn't a discussion about technology and facts, it's just fighting for its own sake.

Don't blame everyone for one silly little troll.

Mind you, they don't need to quote her.

[Ibian]

What's the point of this? Everyone involved in the last few pages have been around long enough to know all the arguments and counterarguments being thrown around. This isn't a discussion about technology and facts, it's just fighting for its own sake.

Don't blame everyone for one silly little troll.

Mind you, they don't need to quote her.

Anyone knowingly feeding a troll is guilty of the trolls trollery. Which is why they have taken over this little corner of the net.

[fewcoins]

You bulls don't know how to have a real conversation... You just bash and bash while the price goes down and down

[JimboToronto]

You bulls don't know how to have a real conversation... You just bash and bash while the price goes down and down

Down and down? More like up and down.