Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks

[Crestington]

Interesting, wouldn't checkpoint servers and checkpointing every block combat this though?

yes, but it wouldn't be a decentralized currency! it would be a system controlled by a centralized checkpointer.
If you did decentralized checkpointing every block then the network would split and wouldn't work.

I don't think being fully decentralized truly matters, having a centralized checkpointer can often be better since there are many people that work in a decentralized fashion but could be trusted enough to manage the checkpointing. IMO a centralized checkpointer is better than a decentralized currency with an open attack vector.

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[_mr_e]

So how about you hit BitcoinDark? Low market cap, center of SuperNet, can't think of a juicier target then that!

[lopalcar]

POS 2.0 coins remove coinage from the equation, so now what?

POS 2.0? is that a thing?

When you carry out your NXT attack, could you go to the trouble of documenting every step and the results ?
Even if you fail (  ) there may be a small bounty for documenting the attack,  and if you succeed, there'll be a bigger bounty.
Good luck, mate, give 'em Hell.

Sure, thanks. But attacking nxt requires funding that I don't have. I still claim that it can be attacked with less than 10%
NXT may not have age since last transaction, but it has "age" since last block. It accumulates equally to all miners ("forgers"?), but I believe it can be gamed to obtain more than the fair share of probabilities of creating a fork.

In order to check if your attack approach works with nxt, wouldn't it work only with the effective balance? It's what is important to forge, in this this case, you wouldn't need any budget, sure some whales can lease their balances to you and even raise some bounties if you document the attack

[cynicSOB]

I don't open-source it yet. It works very unreliably with texts written by non-native speakers, because they tend to copy phrases of other people (it's caused by learning of new words).

I'm not an english native speaker, so if I get high correlation with one I'll take it as a compliment...

So how about you hit BitcoinDark? Low market cap, center of SuperNet, can't think of a juicier target then that!

I'll take a look, but a market cap of 1M USD is not that low... at least for my budget

In order to check if your attack approach works with nxt, wouldn't it work only with the effective balance? It's what is important to forge, in this this case, you wouldn't need any budget, sure some whales can lease their balances to you and even raise some bounties if you document the attack

yes, I can also try with a smaller nxt clone

I don't think being fully decentralized truly matters, having a centralized checkpointer can often be better since there are many people that work in a decentralized fashion but could be trusted enough to manage the checkpointing. IMO a centralized checkpointer is better than a decentralized currency with an open attack vector.

no way. I prefer old-fashioned POW over anything POS with a centralized checkpoint.

[lopalcar]

In order to check if your attack approach works with nxt, wouldn't it work only with the effective balance? It's what is important to forge, in this this case, you wouldn't need any budget, sure some whales can lease their balances to you and even raise some bounties if you document the attack

yes, I can also try with a smaller nxt clone

First a clone and then nxt with a more strong network would be great, keep us informed of your intentions and ask for leasing in the nxt forum if you decide to try it

[xyzzyx]

First a clone and then nxt with a more strong network would be great, keep us informed of your intentions and ask for leasing in the nxt forum if you decide to try it

I currently only own about 20K NXT but I'd lease my forging rights to cynicSOB if he wants to try attacking Nxt's PoS.

[MMXIV]

You can try attacking MMXIV if you want, but it won't work

[Crestington]

I don't think being fully decentralized truly matters, having a centralized checkpointer can often be better since there are many people that work in a decentralized fashion but could be trusted enough to manage the checkpointing. IMO a centralized checkpointer is better than a decentralized currency with an open attack vector.

no way. I prefer old-fashioned POW over anything POS with a centralized checkpoint.

Let's not get off topic about which implementation is better, I prefer Proof of Stake but also like decentralization and open source so this is very good research for me for helping to solve possible exploits.

[cynicSOB]

Thanks all for the nxt leasing offers. I still need to investigate the code with more detail first...

You can try attacking MMXIV if you want, but it won't work

Of course it will work, for this simple unsofisticated attack I only need 600 coins and 30 days. 600 MMXIV: that's 5% of the supply.  Less than 9 BTC at current rates. Anyone cares to donate?
btc here: 1EqekC9YVhiWLYjG3mfKNJwrf5s3YS46WW

A more complex attack may need even less. I think that with 2,8BTC I have a 50% chance of 6 blocks in a row every day, but I haven't tested the math behind this....

And you have it wrong in your wiki: "someone holding 50% of the currency will generate 50% of all proof-of-stake coin blocks". Of course not. Someone that can stake 50% of the coins acively at stake will generate 50% of blocks. But that's much less than 50% of the currency.

[iGotSpots]

Thanks all for the nxt leasing offers. I still need to investigate the code with more detail first...

You can try attacking MMXIV if you want, but it won't work

Of course it will work, for this simple unsofisticated attack I only need 600 coins and 30 days. 600 MMXIV: that's 5% of the supply.  Less than 9 BTC at current rates. Anyone cares to donate?
btc here: 1EqekC9YVhiWLYjG3mfKNJwrf5s3YS46WW

A more complex attack may need even less. I think that with 2,8BTC I have a 50% chance of 6 blocks in a row every day, but I haven't tested the math behind this....

And you have it wrong in your wiki: "someone holding 50% of the currency will generate 50% of all proof-of-stake coin blocks". Of course not. Someone that can stake 50% of the coins acively at stake will generate 50% of blocks. But that's much less than 50% of the currency.

The wiki is just copy paste I don't think anyone updated it yet

Stake weight is more than twice what the entire supply is lol please. There's no way you would even be able to afford buying enough to do it. Let's see how good you are when the total percentage for sale is in the single digits

Challenge issued

[_mr_e]

So how about you hit BitcoinDark? Low market cap, center of SuperNet, can't think of a juicier target then that!

I'll take a look, but a market cap of 1M USD is not that low... at least for my budget

[/quote]

So basically you can't hit anything of any kind of value. Looks like the incentives are working to me. This thread is a joke.

[cynicSOB]

So basically you can't hit anything of any kind of value. Looks like the incentives are working to me. This thread is a joke.

Coins claiming an attack requires 51% of supply are the joke. The point of this thread is: "51% my ass, it's actually about 5% for big coins and I did it with less than 1% to a small coin". Not joking about this.

[achimsmile]

It's true that the last checkpoint for APEX was months ago, but checkpoints wouldn't help against this because I'm rewinding only the few last blocks.

I know some Java, and I'd like to do Nxt eventually - it doesn't have coin age but it has something similar: the time since the last block makes your target easier as time goes by...

I appreciate your research.

In Nxt, base target gets easier to hit after a long block, but for every account, not just the ones under your control. How would it benefit you?

[cynicSOB]

The wiki is just copy paste I don't think anyone updated it yet

Ok, wikis are not expected to be 100% accurate.

Stake weight is more than twice what the entire supply is lol please.

Ok, then I need 2x the supply. Or maybe I need 1/30 of that and wait 30 days. So I need 1/15 of the supply. That's 6,6% according to your weight estimate. Not far from the 5% that I mentioned. So again: Not 50%. More like 6%

There's no way you would even be able to afford buying enough to do it.

It's only 10BTC but yes, you are right: I can't afford it.

Let's see how good you are when the total percentage for sale is in the single digits

It's true: there's not much for sale at exchanges. But I think that is because of the high staking %, nobody leaves their coins at exchanges and everyone prefers to stake them. I suspect more people are willing to sell than what the exchanges show.

Challenge issued

I'll have it in mind

[cynicSOB]

I appreciate your research.

In Nxt, base target gets easier to hit after a long block, but for every account, not just the ones under your control. How would it benefit you?

Thanks.

Yes, but in PPC-style POS the coin age affects every address too and I was able to benefit from it, right? so the fact that it affects everyone is not a problem.

On top of this, I think how the rounding is done in NXT to adjust the difficulty can be gamed for personal benefit. I don't remember exactly, but it's rounded to 30 seconds, right?

[_mr_e]

So basically you can't hit anything of any kind of value. Looks like the incentives are working to me. This thread is a joke.

Coins claiming an attack requires 51% of supply are the joke. The point of this thread is: "51% my ass, it's actually about 5% for big coins and I did it with less than 1% to a small coin". Not joking about this.

I would bet that this is not the case for btcd. Very high hodl and stake rate due to high incentives.

[cynicSOB]

I would bet that this is not the case for btcd. Very high hodl and stake rate due to high incentives.

You would loose your bet. btcd doesn't have a max staking age, meaning if you wait long enough you can attack with as few coins as you want. It's even in a worse position than most others.

[TwinWinNerD]

lots of people complain about the quantity of coins and how the forum is flooded... some proposed ideas to clean it up....
I'll show you how it's done - I'll start attacking weak coins accelerating their death

just wait and see the results, I'll soon show the first victim. Let's start with PoS coins: some people think you need 51% of the supply but this is bs, you need only a very little % if you just want to do a single double spend.

the point of this thread is to see how people react to this: I won't steal from anyone, but some may lose "money".

Some questions:

1. is this a good idea?
2. would you donate so I can attack more POS coins? (maybe spare some coins you are bagholding)
3. would you pay to know the time of the attack and the victim in advance?
4. would you pay for "double spend as a service" (in this case you decide coin and the timing of the attack)?
5. is this legal?
6. do you think someone would pay to have me killed?

go!

update: apexcoin attack successful witih 0,07% of available supply

Do NXT pls and PM me a result. Will donate a bit if successful.

[valarmg]

Pretty cool to see attacks being carried out, and I'm a fan of PoS.

How much does changing the PoS algorithm like this (https://blackcoin.co/blackcoin-pos-protocol-v2-whitepaper.pdf) make it more difficult to attack?

[Damelon]

I agree, interesting thread and am curious about future results

Whatever comes out.

Bookmarking thread.