Cleanup: I'll attack some coins - I owned APEXcoin for 90 blocks

[cynicSOB]

preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.

I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....

[1714107226]

1714107226

[1714107226]

1714107226

[1714107226]

1714107226

[1714107226]

1714107226

[Daedelus]

preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.

I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....

The Nxt network predicts who is next to forge (aka Transparent Forging). How did you get around this?

If the network sees you are forging blocks when it isn't your turn, then the  rest of the network will blacklist you (at least this is the last implementation I know of) and automatically reject your bad blocks.


You can see Transparent Forging live in action here: http://188.138.33.10/




This picture shows potential forgers sorted in chronological order (red ones are those who skipped their turn).

[LiQio]

preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.

I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....

Please provide more details.

Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack. (source for forging stake number: http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=160)

[achimsmile]

preliminary results for NXT: only by buying and staking (and ignoring other's people blocks with a one-line modification to the code), you need about 20% of the supply for immediate owning of all the forging blocks.

I think properties can be gamed to lower that value but I want to check this carefully before actually announcing it....

Please provide more details.

Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack. (source for forging stake number: http://nxtexplorer.com/nxt/nxt.cgi?action=160)

I think current amount forging is more like 45,7% atm

Curr. Avg. Peer Forging   :   457,058,786 NXT

[LiQio]

hi achim 

I assumed 457 mio. = 45.7% = total forging stake

therefore 23% of (total) stake = enough to make 51% of total forging stake

(Could be that this math is completely wrong... and since I need to run and achimsmile is way smarter anyway...
all you readers listen to what he says)

[Daedelus]

I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush  

"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."

I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.

[achimsmile]

hi achim 

I assumed 457 mio. = 45.7% = total forging stake

therefore 23% of (total) stake = enough to make 51% of total forging stake

(Could be that this math is completely wrong... and since I need to run and achimsmile is way smarter anyway...
all you readers listen to what he says)

Yes, all clear now. Sorry, my nickname sucks on bct 

[Este Nuno]

I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush 

"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."

I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.

Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?

[cynicSOB]

I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush 

"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."

I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.

Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?

Yes, that's it.



Some simple questions about nxt so I don't have to look them up:

1) Is transparent forging really implemented? I thought not

2) Is https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt the latest source code? if not, where do I find it? do I really have to decompile Java?

3) If account A transfers some amount to account B (which was already verified) at block N, can B use that stake to forge block N+1? if not, when will it become part of B's effective balance?

4) Is re-leasing possible? if A leases to B, can B re-lease to C without approval from A?

5) which is the best place to ask these questions? nxtforums? which section?

Thanks!

[Daedelus]

Bolded

I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush  

"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."

I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.

Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?

Yes, that's it.



Some simple questions about nxt so I don't have to look them up:

1) Is transparent forging really implemented? I thought not

The part that allows you to predict the next block is, you should be able to confirm this yourself using the tool above. TF is several interlocking bits so you can't really pick a point and say "that's when TF began". And not all of it is implemented yet.

2) Is https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt the latest source code? if not, where do I find it? do I really have to decompile Java?

I believe so. Every version ships with the source code in the 'src' folder so you could use that for the latest version. Not sure it is in as usable format though

3) If account A transfers some amount to account B (which was already verified) at block N, can B use that stake to forge block N+1? if not, when will it become part of B's effective balance?

You have to wait for N+1440 blocks before it counts in B's effective balance again. You can't broadcast a transaction, move the Nxt, broadcast again in the next block in a new account, move, broadcast move etc. using the same NXT.

4) Is re-leasing possible? if A leases to B, can B re-lease to C without approval from A?

No

5) which is the best place to ask these questions? nxtforums? which section?

Nxtforum is best.

Technical general questions: https://nxtforum.org/general/
Transparent Forging: https://nxtforum.org/transparent-forging/


Thanks!

You're welcome. Keep it up!

[Rent_a_Ray]

I read it the same way as achimsmile, I think a comma/fullstop/words were missing in your rush  

"Around 20% would be quite a lot, or if I may say, with the current total amount of stake forging. So around 23% of stake would give you a shot at a 51% attack as there is about 45% of the stake forging at the moment."

I think ^ is what you meant. But it read as though only 23% of people were forging.

Isn't this more or less exactly what's expected? You need around half of the total staking power to attack?

When you find the right moment, 51% is not much. Attacker can close the mint lock and wait.
Most POS coins have an indication showing if blocks are ready. You need one single block with a high amount of matured coins.
You can check that in coincontrol, so no additional coding is needed for this hack.

Question: Is this possible?

If the network is able to detect such a superstaking, it can prohibit or shift transactions.
Network could calculate the average difficulty of the last X blocks or since the last checkpoint +-15%. Everything above is not valid and transactions or the confirmation process have to wait till the diff get normalized. The attacker (or the stakeholder) would get his interest, but that's all.

Cheers,
Ray

[Daedelus]

Which POS implementation are you referring to Ray? There is a lot of vocabulary in you first paragraph that seems to imply Peercoin family. What is a matured coin?

[Rent_a_Ray]

Which POS implementation are you referring to Ray? There is a lot of vocabulary in you first paragraph that seems to imply Peercoin family. What is a matured coin?

Yes, I am talking about Peercoin derivates.
With matured I mean an aged block which is ready for minting.

Cheers,
Ray

[Daedelus]

Ok. I can't answer for Peercoin family  

[TwinWinNerD]

Which POS implementation are you referring to Ray? There is a lot of vocabulary in you first paragraph that seems to imply Peercoin family. What is a matured coin?

Yes, I am talking about Peercoin derivates.
With matured I mean an aged block which is ready for minting.

Cheers,
Ray

NXT doesn't have such a system for example.

[Rent_a_Ray]

Agreed. But many other coins have it.
I am sure NXT is relatively safe against that kind of attack.

Interesting thread btw.

Cheers

[fenghush]

Wouldn't the destruction of shitty PoS coins be faster if you show everyone how to do it, than to spend your own resources?

[Este Nuno]

Wouldn't the destruction of shitty PoS coins be faster if you show everyone how to do it, than to spend your own resources?

He has shown how he owned APEX.

[fonzerrellie]

yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own

[Rent_a_Ray]

yay we have the right to destroy peoples work, decide which coins are "shitcoins" and which ones are "good", which coins have potential or should just be killed... cause we're a bunch of   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrgpZ0fUixs


notice how most true shitcoins die off on their own

agreed and +1
At the end of 2015 many coins will be dead. (Without any attack)

But I want my coin secure. The possibility of an attack is reason enough for me.
Shitcoins will not update their code. Most of them have no active development.
Like I said: Attacking a shitcoin is like killing a zombie. Nobody cares. Look at Apex.

Cheers,
Ray