Guns

[westkybitcoins]

Did this lone old man prevent a massacre? The world, of course, will never know what might have happened had he not stopped the two thugs.

This is one old man carrying a concealed weapon, mind you.

http://youtu.be/KjH3ZMUks1o

Holmes had AR-15, armed in body armor and on drugs... He wasn't planning to rob anyone.  

The old guy shot like 6-7 times, missed most of them. No imagine if he killed someone else with a stray bullet. Whoops.

The key point here is that he didn't.  We can muse all day about what an armed citizen or two in that theater would have changed the outcomes, but the truth is that it would depend upon the citizens.  The vast majority of concealed carry licencees wouldn't have been able to stop this rampage early because it was so quick and the odds of the licencees being able to properly identify the orginally shooter from another CC, and without getting shot himself, are long.  But that's not the point.  Rampaging lone nutjobs are hard to prevent in any case, and guns are old tech, easily reproduced by one machinist.  Making them illegal is not going to prevent people who are motivated to possess them from aquiring them.  After all, most guns are illegal in Mexico & Britain, and in both cases the culture has changed enough that wise police keep firearms nearby, if only in their squad car.  The greatest factor in the use of firearms in violent crimes is not the legality of the firearms, but the culture in question.   Gun violence is very rare in Canada, but that still isn't an argument in faovr of doing the same in the United States.  Canada is a relatively uniform culture, while the US is a mix of amny cultures of varying degrees of conflict.  Feel free to do whatever you think that you can to change that culture, but if your plan involves using the force of government to restrict my ability to defend my own family from harm, by restricting my access to the best tools for the job or by any other method, you are already wrong.

Thank you.

This times 1000. It's an obvious fact. I doubt anyone would deny it.

Which leads to the natural conclusion that these laws are NOT really about disarming criminals, and that anyone trying to sell that lie, or even just throwing out anti-gun arguments focusing on criminals/crime/etc. is being intellectually dishonest from the start.

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[TheBitcoinChemist]

http://www.a-human-right.com/

[TheButterZone]

Perhaps, but you cannot deny that they are less likely to even start it if the costs are too high. Check this related interview: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/stagnaro5.html
Plus this again, which has already being linked here: http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/john-joe-grays-militant-group-texas-compound/story?id=9819578#.T-x1N7WXRS0

Also, there's police brutality too. I already gave an example here in this same thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90086.msg994129#msg994129

There is police brutality in states, gun ownership in most states is allowed. Even in pretty restrictive states like NY, you can still conceal carry weapons with a permit.

That may or may not be granted, and even if it is, the tax/bribe/whatever you want to call it, is prohibitively expensive, IOW unconstitutional.

well, food should include all deaths from obesity. Firearms/traffic should not include suicide. And alcohol should include long term disease.
The point is why are we picking this one risk? Why not the many more serious problems.?

LOL tweaking statistics to your liking? Really stop posting crap.

A gunman killed twelve people in a MILITARY base:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood_shooting

A military base where carrying guns is prohibited by all but a few MPs and civilian LEOs.

However, Lt. General Cone stated: "As a matter of practice, we do not carry weapons on Fort Hood. This is our home." Military weapons are only used for training or by base security, and personal weapons must be kept locked away by the provost marshal.

Still weapons are there. Police was there. The point that such shootings are hard to prevent:

Colorado shooting started at 12:38am, police was there at 12:40am, and at 12:45am the suspect was already in custody.

It's pretty much 2 minutes of carnage. Noone would have done anything to stop it.

They're easy to enable, because everyone can't carry a cop, and if you ban guns like the theater, the base, and the site of just about every modern massacre, all victims are defenseless to be murdered and maimed with impunity in the minutes it takes police to arrive. There's a common theme of massacres: high body counts=in gun free zones. Low body counts, including the criminal=guns not-free zones.

Let states decide what they want to do. Keep feds out. NYC is doing fine without guns.

For criminals, who find utopia when they have nothing but defenseless victims, and cops who violate civil rights with impunity. The defenseless victims of crime and tyranny, not so much.

The old guy shot like 6-7 times, missed most of them. No imagine if he killed someone else with a stray bullet. Whoops.

No amount of FUD is beneath you, it seems.

[vampire]

No amount of FUD is beneath you, it seems.

Lets start taking you apart:

That may or may not be granted, and even if it is, the tax/bribe/whatever you want to call it, is prohibitively expensive, IOW unconstitutional.

I don't give a fuck about constitution's interpretation, either you're for federal regulations or not - make up your mind. If you're then don't get butthurt when feds decide to ban your precious guns.

NYS: Outside of NYC the cost to get a CCW license is $10 with $3 fee for fingerprinting. If $13 is expensive, may be you should get a job?!

Fun fact: Buffalo has conceal carry, and its crime rate 3x times more than in NYC.

A military base where carrying guns is prohibited by all but a few MPs and civilian LEOs.

Mute point, the base is highly secure. Even if everyone was armed, he could have gone into a section where were no guns - hospital, showers, etc.

They're easy to enable, because everyone can't carry a cop, and if you ban guns like the theater, the base, and the site of just about every modern massacre, all victims are defenseless to be murdered and maimed with impunity in the minutes it takes police to arrive. There's a common theme of massacres: high body counts=in gun free zones. Low body counts, including the criminal=guns not-free zones.

These murderers can always find a moment where people are not armed or chose different kind of weapon. Colorado laws are pretty flexible about guns, Colorado is a shall issue state.

For criminals, who find utopia when they have nothing but defenseless victims, and cops who violate civil rights with impunity. The defenseless victims of crime and tyranny, not so much.

NYC is one of safest metro areas and highly packed.

[myrkul]

 
Let start taking you apart:

That may or may not be granted, and even if it is, the tax/bribe/whatever you want to call it, is prohibitively expensive, IOW unconstitutional.

I don't give a fuck about constitution's interpretation, either you're for federal regulations or not - make up your mind. If you're then don't get butthurt when feds decide to ban your precious guns.

NYS: Outside of NYC the cost to get a CCW license is $10 with $3 fee for fingerprinting. If $13 is expensive, may be you should get a job?!

Fun fact: Buffalo has conceal carry, and its crime rate 5x time more than in NYC.

I'm against federal and state regulations. They do nothing, except disarm the good guys.

A military base where carrying guns is prohibited by all but a few MPs and civilian LEOs.

Mute point, the base is highly secure. Even if everyone was armed, he could have gone into a section where were no guns - hospital, showers, etc.

It's not a moot point, because if he had gone into the showers, he would have been stopped when he came out, or by someone in the locker room.

They're easy to enable, because everyone can't carry a cop, and if you ban guns like the theater, the base, and the site of just about every modern massacre, all victims are defenseless to be murdered and maimed with impunity in the minutes it takes police to arrive. There's a common theme of massacres: high body counts=in gun free zones. Low body counts, including the criminal=guns not-free zones.

These murderers can always find a moment where people are not armed or chose different kind of weapon. Colorado laws are pretty flexible about guns, Colorado is a shall issue state.

And the movie theater prohibited guns. Ever wonder why gun stores don't get robbed?

For criminals, who find utopia when they have nothing but defenseless victims, and cops who violate civil rights with impunity. The defenseless victims of crime and tyranny, not so much.

NYC is one of safest metro areas and highly packed.

Stats?

[vampire]

I'm against federal and state regulations. They do nothing, except disarm the good guys.

Then you're missing the big pictures. I chose where I want to live, I vote for what I believe for. If majority wants one way, well it becomes a law. Don't like - plenty of states to move in to. If you're an anarchist, you're welcome to immigrate to Somalia. I don't think you're good a guy anyway - you only care about yourself.

It's not a moot point, because if he had gone into the showers, he would have been stopped when he came out, or by someone in the locker room.

He was stopped with five bullets.

And the movie theater prohibited guns. Ever wonder why gun stores don't get robbed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnap0_Xb7Hk

Stats?

http://www.morganquitno.com/xcit06pop.htm#500,000+
http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2010/Metro_crime_ranking_2010-2011_hightolow.pdf

[TheBitcoinChemist]

http://os.cqpress.com/citycrime/2010/Metro_crime_ranking_2010-2011_hightolow.pdf

I can't find NYC, where is it's ranking?  I did find my city at 153, putting it higher than Cincinnati, Ohio.  I've lived there too, and I've got to call BS on that as well.  They must be using some kind of adjustment for urban size or population density, because there has never been a day that Louisville was more dangerous than Cincinnati.

EDIT:  Ah, I see.  They are including Middletown, Ohio and the 5 counties in Northern Kentucky that are generally regarded as the "greater metro area" of Cincinnati in those stats.  Middletown is fairly safe, but those five northern Kentucky counties are incrediblely safe, completely throwing off those averages.  So safe, in fact, that the Cincinnati International Airport was deliberately built in Kentucky; which often confuses travelers.

[TheButterZone]

I don't give a fuck about constitution's interpretation, either you're for federal regulations or not - make up your mind. If you're then don't get butthurt when feds decide to ban your precious guns.

Another Hawker is born? Ignore list entry #2 added.

NYS: Outside of NYC the cost to get a CCW license is $10 with $3 fee for fingerprinting. If $13 is expensive, may be you should get a job?!

Fun fact: Buffalo has conceal carry, and its crime rate 3x times more than in NYC.

1: NYC's population is 40% of the state's combined population. That's almost 8,244,910 living under the most brutal level of tyranny in the state and forced to pay a tax/bribe, be a criminal or be a defenseless victim.
2: Fun Fact: Buffalo, NYC, and the rest of New York State do not have to issue any subject a carry license by law. The only way to guarantee this is to bribe the right people. Rights denied=tyranny, criminals' utopia.
3: Every government has every reason in the world to fudge its crime rates, and I've witnessed crimes and police responses NEVER making it into the detailed stats, down to time, place, and incident type (convictions not required). It's surprising 100% of them don't lie their asses off, as there's really no penalty for doing so.

A military base where carrying guns is prohibited by all but a few MPs and civilian LEOs.

Mute point, the base is highly secure. Even if everyone was armed, he could have gone into a section where were no guns - hospital, showers, etc.

"Highly secure" my fucking ass. Highly secure for mass murderers to kill with impunity while it takes minutes for LEOs to arrive, more like.

NYC is one of safest metro areas

According to NYC and criminals who want ovine patronage, /rolleyes

Must be great to be a cop in NYC! You can violate every human, civil, constitutional right with effective impunity, and some people will deny the fact that it's a police state until their final breath. What reason could they possibly have for rejecting reality and substituting their own? Stockholm Syndrome? Benefiting from tyranny?

I'm against federal and state regulations. They do nothing, except disarm the good guys.

Then you're missing the big pictures. I chose where I want to live, I vote for what I believe for. If majority wants one way, well it becomes a law. Don't like - plenty of states to move in to. If you're an anarchist, you're welcome to immigrate to Somalia. I don't think you're good a guy anyway - you only care about yourself.

And you apparently only care about mob rule and ensuring the "majority" (as claimed by tyrannical governments) can be as evil as it wants, which cannot invalidate inherent human rights. Follow that logic to its conclusion and the majority would be able to choose whether innocents live or die, be raped or not, be maimed or not, lose every bit of property they own or not; that could not possibly be more repugnantly inhuman.

[vampire]

I can't find NYC, where is it's ranking?  I did find my city at 153, putting it higher than Cincinnati, Ohio.  I've lived there too, and I've got to call BS on that as well.  They must be using some kind of adjustment for urban size or population density, because there has never been a day that Louisville was more dangerous than Cincinnati.

NYC at 252.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

[vampire]

1: I'm fairly certain that at 8,244,910 - Jul 2011 (US Census), NYC's population outnumbers all the rest of the state's combined population. That's almost 8,244,910 living under tyranny and forced to pay a tax/bribe, be a criminal or be a defenseless victim.

Fairly certain that you're wrong.

[nimda]

One thing this thread has taught me is that anyone can find data to suit their viewpoint. Thus, I'm going to avoid small studies and/or minute, focused pieces of data.

[TheBitcoinChemist]

I can't find NYC, where is it's ranking?  I did find my city at 153, putting it higher than Cincinnati, Ohio.  I've lived there too, and I've got to call BS on that as well.  They must be using some kind of adjustment for urban size or population density, because there has never been a day that Louisville was more dangerous than Cincinnati.

NYC at 252.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

While that is impressive, it's distorted in the same way that Cincinnati's stats are distorted.  No rational person considers the surrounding suburbs and exurbs to be "the city".  Remove NJ & PA stats from the mix and where does NYC actually fall?  Probably not bad, in any case; a police state does have it's pratical effects, but I still wouldn't want to live there.  And like I said, I've known people that were born there, and I've known people that moved there; and none that I've known have recommended living there.

EDIT: As an example, I've lived in the city most of my life (and yes, Louisville is a real city, about the same size in both population and land area as Washington, DC.) and I was 32 before I had even met anyone that had been mugged in Louisville, and he was a mildly retarded and occasionally homeless man that was targeted while sleeping in a public park.  I've yet to meet anyone else that has ever been mugged here.  On the other side, I lived in Cincinnati for 12 years, and had my car broken into three times.  (I've never been robbed or vandalized living in Louisville)  While I was never mugged in Cincinnati myself, I've known half a dozen personally who where mugged, two in the parking lot of my apprenticeship school parking lot after class.

[vampire]

While that is impressive, it's distorted in the same way that Cincinnati's stats are distorted.  No rational person considers the surrounding suburbs and exurbs to be "the city".  Remove NJ & PA stats from the mix and where does NYC actually fall?  Probably not bad, in any case; a police state does have it's pratical effects, but I still wouldn't want to live there.  And like I said, I've known people that were born there, and I've known people that moved there; and none that I've known have recommended living there.

I posted wiki link.... It has NYC by itself, NYC isn't really police state. I would say our cops are much more sane than the rest of the country. You are more likely to get abused by a cop in Long Island than in NYC.

Wiki link again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

[Explodicle]

If you're an anarchist, you're welcome to immigrate to Somalia.

There are actually many different types of Anarchism, so you can't safely assume that all anarchists would find Somalia a desireable place to live. All anarchy means is "no rulers", not chaos. Most of the anarchists on this forum are "anarcho-capitalists".

You might as well suggest statists move to North Korea.

[vampire]

There are actually many different types of Anarchism, so you can't safely assume that all anarchists would find Somalia a desireable place to live. All anarchy means is "no rulers", not chaos. Most of the anarchists on this forum are "anarcho-capitalists".

You might as well suggest statists move to North Korea.

Most of NYC is privately owned. So don't tell us what do do. If we want to forbid guns, well it's our choice.

:-)

[myrkul]

Then you're missing the big pictures. I chose where I want to live, I vote for what I believe for. If majority wants one way, well it becomes a law. Don't like - plenty of states to move in to. If you're an anarchist, you're welcome to immigrate to Somalia. I don't think you're good a guy anyway - you only care about yourself.

Oh, the "move to Somalia" meme...   Place is a shithole, place was a shithole before anarchy, is still a shithole, but a much better shithole. imagine how much better Somalia would be if they had started off not a shithole.

Now as to me only being concerned with myself... Of course I am the most important person to me (with the possible exception of my SO and our soon-to-be daughters). Are you not the most important person to you? Here's the thing: I want liberty. I want peace. I want to be able to do anything I want, so long as I don't hurt anyone else. But in order to get that for me, I have to advocate it for you, too. It's really simple: the best way to ensure that I have maximum liberty is to ensure that everyone has maximum liberty.

And the movie theater prohibited guns. Ever wonder why gun stores don't get robbed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnap0_Xb7Hk

lol... stupid gun store clerk, stupid criminals, stupid risk that paid off pretty well. I amend my previous statement to don't usually get robbed.

[vampire]

It's really simple: the best way to ensure that I have maximum liberty is to ensure that everyone has maximum liberty.

What do you define by maximum liberty?

Where do you put a stop:

Driving on a highway over 100mph?
Or a loud party with boom boxes blasting at 4am?
If a guy had sex infront of your child on a public street or his backyard.

[myrkul]

It's really simple: the best way to ensure that I have maximum liberty is to ensure that everyone has maximum liberty.

What do you define by maximum liberty?

You don't read too well, do you?

I want liberty. I want peace. I want to be able to do anything I want, so long as I don't hurt anyone else.

[riX]

Just for fun: create tables of criminals statistics for sweden: http://statistik.bra.se/solwebb/action/index

Killings by gun 2011 (per 100 000):  <0.5  (margin of error 0.5)
Killings by any means 2011 (per 100 000): 2   (margin of error 0.5)

I've personally never seen a handgun, except in military service and the ones the police are carrying. I never seen a drawn gun ever, except in shooting ranges.


Last year Swedish customs seized 20 illegals guns, a huge increase compared to earlier years, leading to new laws.

[vampire]

You don't read too well, do you?

"Hurt" is an ambiguous word.