Bitcoin Ponzi scheme or not

[Flashman]

Bitcoin is developed allowing the creator and his friends to easily mine approx 1/3rd of the total potential supply before going public.

Riiiiight, because you didn't get a handwritten invitation to participate you think you've been buttfucked without lube. Paper went public 2 months before the genesis block dumbass.

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[mayax]

are you happy if I use "speculative bubble or collective delusion"  instead of ponzi?

Of course I am, because an speculative bubble and a Ponzi scheme are not the same thing. Like, at all.

Bitcoin foundation is the key and its founder, Satoshi Nakamoto, who is estimated to have mined 1 million bitcoins in the currency’s early days. His stash is spread across many wallets. He pocketed the early bitcoins and laughed.. ha ha ha

At the time Nakamoto pocketed his million coins he didn't laugh because guess what: they weren't worth a damned piece of shit. The only thing he did was launch an open experiment of a new kind of sound, digital money. He published a paper explaining how it all worked. He released the node's code. You could talk to him, spot bugs, send him patches. You could mine for worthless coins. At this stage just a handful of crypto-anarchists played with them as if they were exchanging peas or little river stones with each other. During roughly these first 2 years they were worth ZILCH, you can check it yourself. After all this time the coins started to gain some slight value due to sheer public interest, but before this point you could get a shitload of 'em for free using your crappy computer's CPU or simply asking "pretty please".

I don't know if he actually envisioned any of this and I guess we'll never know, but he was clearly not "premining valuable coins to dump them to idiots on day 1". Of course, this is actually the case of most other altcoins, whose creators just prey on fresh get-rich-quick fools who feel like they missed the Bitcoin train.

47 individuals own 28.9% of the approximately 12 million Bitcoins in existence so far. Another 880 own 21.5%, meaning 927 people control half of the entire market cap of the digital currency. Another 10,000 individuals control about a quarter.

And the rest  (around a million) get the crumbs (700,000 are out of circulation, whether through government seizure or people losing their passwords).  

So, you are not so many people. around of 1 mil all together. With all your propaganda, advertising and many other things ONLY 1 mil. people. I think Zeek Rewards had more members without any conference and media )

Question: why didn't the Bitcoin foundation gave to any Bitcoin wallet a fix amount of bitcoins at the time they started this ....project? why do you need the fiat currency if you say that it's so bad?

Why? Because SN was a God-like creature and not a dumbass troll as you are, that's why. If all wallets started with some coins in it then bitcoins would not be sound money and they'd still be worth nothing 6 years on (if they still existed at all). Alternatively, if only the X first wallets had coins in it then early adopters could have just created lots of them an claim most coins either way. Not that you can't create such an altcoin if you feel so inclined...

I only have other opinion than you, libertarian. chill !

You said "wallets started with some coins in it then bitcoins would not be sound money" then it was created to bring profit right? Good. that means this "legendary" person, SN(who can be a kind from Ukraine or Abu Abas from Libya) pocked some millions of Bitcoin, waiting to raise its value and then he sold. it seems fair

you, as a little bunny that you are, are thinking that someone wants you to get rich overnight and he created a monetary system where everybody will be a Trump with many patootles  ) pffff.
Please do not smoke so much...

 You are part of the craptocoins hoarders wait for the dust to settle and noobs to be encouraged once more into buying as the price is stable and then repeat the dump and crash several times more.

[HYPERfuture]

Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme.
No new comers, the price is falling ,right?

More new comers, the price is raising  same for HYIPs. they last as long there are new comers.
yes, the Bitcoin system itself can last but useless if nobody is using it.

Now, Bitcoin is used for cyber crimes and speculative investment(short period of time).

Seriously are you guys getting paid for this or something? I don't see why people would waste their life on a forum just to trash talk something all day.

There more people using bitcoin than ever before and the price of a bitcoin is irrelevant when it comes to the technology.

You seem vexed.

I'm not vexed just annoyed by all the sockpuppets here saying things that ARE NOT TRUE. If anyone represents something false as true it annoys me no matter what the subject matter is.

World Bank says bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

This is also true bitcoin is first and foremost a technology. People buying bitcoin has zero effect on the technology of the blockchain functioning as it should. The idea of blockchain is a primary technological innovation.

who said something about the Bitcoin tech? it's like you said "that HYIPs is using PHP for its website". So what? PHP is used for many application.

Bitcoin system is a bubble as it is now. Yes, there are a lot of interests around it because some people make a lot of money from new comers but it's a bubble in the end.

That's why "you" need to appear in the news, conferences and so on.

What would this "blockchain " without the new so called "investors", without money? why do you need the Bitcoin to be "traded"?
make  1 BTC = 1 USD and done. no price fluctuation

No, you need the price fluctuation in order to get new fouls otherwise will be like any other e-currency.

php is a relatively old technology and people who participate in HYIP's run from php script scam websites do not participate in php technology in the same way bitcoin users do with the blockchain. The blockchain has many uses and is still in its infancy. A php script scam website is not participating in changing technology in any way whatsoever. Bitcoin services, major investments in many bitcoin projects, and the blockchain itself is an unprecedented technology.

Charles Hoskinson says Bitcoin-related technology is about to revolutionise property rights, banking, remote education, private law and crowd-funding for the developing world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnvillasenor/2014/05/12/the-future-of-innovation-five-things-we-can-learn-from-bitcoin/

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

There are much more articles out there but I am not going to waste any more time on this joke of a thread.

There are many uses for bitcoin blockchain.

I don't need to appear in the news at all. Bitcoin is a decentralized technology and no one individual owns it. If you are thinking of bitcoin as a company shows how little you understand it. It is nothing "like any other e-currency" at all.

The technology has everything to do with it. Bitcoin is at its core an unprecedented technology and even the World Bank agrees it is not a Ponzi but of course you must be right  

For every arbitrary youtube vid/article you quote in your one-sided shill argument, I could quote another 10 negative articles outlining why this is no more than a speculative bubble that will soon collapse.

Look.  I'm not doubting that the bitcoin fundamentals were quite impressive.  In an 'idealistic' society, it would have flourished 10-100 fold by now, and perhaps been the next 'tablet computer' of payment processing.

However, majority of the technology fell into the wrong hands, casting a negative cloud over it that could not and cannot be remedied.

Every single one of the biggest and supposedly most trusted exchanges all go down due to hacks/scams...new coin ipo scams galore, and basically every other perspective new start up involving some form of scamming in one way or another.

Then there's Silkroad 1 and 2.  

I'm not even going to include the amount of p2p scamming that goes on on an individual basis on forums either.  

With all this negative press, do you think any new large scale corporations are going to actually spend time and money to implement it? Come on dude, this is common sense.  Take off your rose colored blinders.  Without new adoption...it's going nowhere...unless you're happy with just trading worthless coins to joe bloe in India like hoarding Farmville money...maybe that's your thing.

You're in denial man.  It's a burning/sinking ship..and it will take you down with it.  So be it though.  So long as you're 'happy' with the fundamentals, it shouldn't matter if you lose every penny you spent, amirite? That's a great way of looking at things though  

There's been a surge of legitimate bitcoin adoption in the last year according to the figures.

I love the technology and I know it will survive so I don't even think there is a sinking ship to worry about

Someone did a study and the overwhelming majority of transactions were for legitimate purposes.

People are investing millions in bitcoin startups and infrastructure now precisely because it has shrug off the "dark net" associations you refer to. That was a big issue maybe 2 years ago but not anymore.

The negative press doesn't mention that over a 2 year period bitcoin has probably been the best investment on the planet. Sure it's hard a hard year. Nothing's perfect I don't have rose colored glasses I've just seen it all before, and I know that right now bitcoin is still maturing at a phenomenal rate considering the newness of the tech. People were saying bitcoin won't go anywhere when it was worth $1 and people are still saying it now. Nothing's changed in that department

There are also decentralized exchange solutions like XCP that don't rely on a centralized exchange. Ripple also has an interesting solution to this problem. Sure it's still new technology whoever doesn't think that is blind. But that also means it has a long way to go and considering it's age it's nothing short of phenomenal as far as new technologies go.

I also think the fact more and more people keep using and developing with bitcoin even with the hacks and scandals shows the real staying power of the idea of bitcoin. I see the glass half full you see it half empty that's all

If bitcoin ever did have the crash you refer to I would buy as many as possible that's for sure.

EDIT: I think I read somewhere that with current mining tech / costs it is not worth selling bitcoins for less than $200 so I would be very suprised if it did go sub 200. If there was a big shrug off of mining infrastructure as a result of sub $200 coins I would be buying a lot. Bitcoin would be back if that ever happened. But people will refuse to sell for less than $200 and I find it extremely unlikely. It is a black swan event (highly unlikely catastrophic scenario).

[rax]

I only have other opinion than you, libertarian. chill !

You said "wallets started with some coins in it then bitcoins would not be sound money" then it was created to bring profit right? Good. that means this "legendary" person, SN(who can be a kind from Ukraine or Abu Abas from Libya) pocked some millions of Bitcoin, waiting to raise its value and then he sold. it seems fair

you, as a little bunny that you are, are thinking that someone wants you to get rich overnight and he created a monetary system where everybody will be a Trump with many patootles  ) pffff.
Please do not smoke so much...

You are part of the craptocoins hoarders wait for the dust to settle and noobs to be encouraged once more into buying as the price is stable and then repeat the dump and crash several times more.

K, whatever. I made my point. Have you already corrected your poll vote? Now, repeat after me: "Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme"...

[mayax]

"the negative press doesn't mention that over a 2 year period bitcoin has probably been the best investment on the planet"

Please tell that to Bitinstant, MTgox's clients who lost their funds.
I didn't mention P2P scams or the small exchangers who scammed.

Bitcoin is mainly use for fishy things even you don't see that.
You are all together around of 1 MIL persons even you had a big propaganda. A such a small "world" but with 2 BIG incindent Silk road 1, 2

50% fake transactions last year.
the exchangers are making fake transactions too(a lot) and they manipulate the Bitcoin price.

add the fear of hacking and you will have the whole picture of what you call, Bitcoin

these are facts. Bitcoin is only a speculative bubble and it will sink soon.

[HYPERfuture]

"the negative press doesn't mention that over a 2 year period bitcoin has probably been the best investment on the planet"

Please tell that to Bitinstant, MTgox's clients who lost their funds.
I didn't mention P2P scams or the small exchangers who scammed.

Bitcoin is mainly use for fishy things even you don't see that.
You are all together around of 1 MIL persons even you had a big propaganda. A such a small "world" but with 2 BIG incindent Silk road 1, 2

50% fake transactions last year.
the exchangers are making fake transactions too(a lot) and they manipulate the Bitcoin price.

add the fear of hacking and you will have the whole picture of what you call, Bitcoin

these are facts. Bitcoin is only a speculative bubble and it will sink soon.

Sure I feel sorry for those people. I'm a decent human being. But I also believe in the staying power of bitcoin.

As for the rest of your post it it unsubstantiated and false facts

[rax]

Do you pester any other forums devoted to talk about other speculative bubbles such as real estate, stock market, forex or commodities or is this the only one?

[jbreher]

Haha... hahah... hahahahahhaah - Such misconception. I don't even know where to start. Let's try, shall we?

are you happy if I use "speculative bubble or collective delusion"  instead of ponzi?

Well, at least it's defensible. As opposed to your earlier characterization, which was an all-out impossibility. I don't for a moment agree with it, but you might be able to defend it. Let's see how you make out...

Bitcoin foundation is the key and its founder, Satoshi Nakamoto,

#1 - the Bitcoin Foundation and Satoshi Nakamoto have exactly zero relationship. None. nada. zilchomundo.

#2 - Are you aware that the Bitcoin Foundation has no official power over Bitcoin? It is merely a trade association that was instituted by a cabal long after Bitcoin was spat out into the wild.

who is estimated to have mined 1 million bitcoins in the currency’s early days. His stash is spread across many wallets. He pocketed the early bitcoins and laughed.. ha ha ha

#3 - I think the best estimates indicate Satoshi likely has somewhere around 960,000 BTC - I'll grant you a 96% for effort on this bit.

#4 - laughing? reason for this claim? So far, nobody has detected any move on Satoshi's part to cash out any of this vast wealth. While you can draw your own conclusions in regards to this, you should at least agree it demonstrates a lack of hilarity -- nay, it demonstrates an attitude of seriousness -- on his/her/their part.

47 individuals own 28.9% of the approximately 12 million Bitcoins in existence so far. Another 880 own 21.5%, meaning 927 people control half of the entire market cap of the digital currency. Another 10,000 individuals control about a quarter.

#5 - And you draw these conclusions from -- what -- exactly? Surely someone so self-assured knows that there is not a 1:1 correlation between addresses and individuals?

...
Question: why didn't the Bitcoin foundation gave to any Bitcoin wallet a fix amount of bitcoins at the time they started this ....project?

#6 - because the Bitcoin Foundation did not exist at the time this ... project ... was started.

#7 - because all the bitcoins that the Bitcoin Foundation owns are those donated to them.

#8 - because the actual number and existence of bitcoin wallets is unknowable.

#9 - because exactly zero bitcoin wallets existed at the time this ... project ... was started.

#10 - because there is no fixed number of bitcoin wallets to number of individuals.

#... oh screw it.

Ball's in your court....

[HYPERfuture]

Do you pester any other forums devoted to talk about other speculative bubbles such as real estate, stock market, forex or commodities or is this the only one?

Probably not. The same kind of people who said the Internet was Evil and will never go anywhere 

[Bitcoin Foundation]

NO (But I assume newbies are not allowed to vote)

[mayax]

no HYIP(ponzi) admits what it is until it is down

[BitCoinNutJob]

I want to know if anybody in the Bitcoin community think that Bitcoin is a big ponzi scheme like Bernie Madoff. If so please vote Yes or No. Also, please explain why you think that.

Clearly isnt this has been discussed many times, if bitcoin is a ponzi that would mean gold/housing most things in life are a ponzi.  Words lose all meaning.

[Flashman]

Yes, in order to describe fully the way in which bitcoin is a ponzi, you have to stretch definitions such that basically any government fiat would fit much more aptly to the description. If the common herd had the first clue about money in the first place, bitcoin would be a no-brainer sell as "less ponzi-like than the USD"

[altcoinUK]

However, majority of the technology fell into the wrong hands, casting a negative cloud over it that could not and cannot be remedied.

...

With all this negative press, do you think any new large scale corporations are going to actually spend time and money to implement it? Come on dude, this is common sense.  Take off your rose colored blinders.  Without new adoption...it's going nowhere...unless you're happy with just trading worthless coins to joe bloe in India like hoarding Farmville money...maybe that's your thing.

I hate to admit, but you are completely right. Still, hopefully the tech fundamentals of Bitcoin are strong enough to overcome in these early years issues and difficulties.

[Flashman]

So, here's an entry in the "spot the bigger ponzi" contest, article over a year old, but holding many uncomfortable truths....

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article39311.html

[Aemon]

Can someone please explain how Bitcoin would be a ponzi?  The whole idea of a ponzi is you get money as a guarantee and its sold as an investment, has Bitcoin ever done anything like that?  I am just confused?

[ChuckBuck]

Can someone please explain how Bitcoin would be a ponzi?  The whole idea of a ponzi is you get money as a guarantee and its sold as an investment, has Bitcoin ever done anything like that?  I am just confused?

It's been discussed time and time again in this forum, Bitcoin by definition cannot be a Ponzi scheme.

There's no central operator at the top that up and vanished, unless you consider Satoshi that guy with his unspent stash.

Bitcoin by it's nature is decentralized, meaning no one central authority or organization or operator runs it or owns it.

There's no Madoff or no crooks involved laughing in Tahitit having Mai tai's.

There's alot of other things that tick the checkboxes debunking Bitcoin being a ponzi scheme, but the decentralized aspect is really all you need to know.

[FandangledGizmo]

Bitcoin is like a ponzi scheme.
No new comers, the price is falling ,right?

More new comers, the price is raising  same for HYIPs. they last as long there are new comers.
yes, the Bitcoin system itself can last but useless if nobody is using it.

Now, Bitcoin is used for cyber crimes and speculative investment(short period of time).

Seriously are you guys getting paid for this or something? I don't see why people would waste their life on a forum just to trash talk something all day.

There more people using bitcoin than ever before and the price of a bitcoin is irrelevant when it comes to the technology.

You seem vexed.

I'm not vexed just annoyed by all the sockpuppets here saying things that ARE NOT TRUE. If anyone represents something false as true it annoys me no matter what the subject matter is.

World Bank says bitcoin is not a ponzi scheme https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-bank-bitcoin-not-ponzi-scheme/

...
When there will not be any new fouls to "invest" in Bitcoin, the system will collapse.
...

Bitcoin will not collapse if nobody "invests". It does not need investors. It works well regardless of the value of a bitcoin.

This is also true bitcoin is first and foremost a technology. People buying bitcoin has zero effect on the technology of the blockchain functioning as it should. The idea of blockchain is a primary technological innovation.

who said something about the Bitcoin tech? it's like you said "that HYIPs is using PHP for its website". So what? PHP is used for many application.

Bitcoin system is a bubble as it is now. Yes, there are a lot of interests around it because some people make a lot of money from new comers but it's a bubble in the end.

That's why "you" need to appear in the news, conferences and so on.

What would this "blockchain " without the new so called "investors", without money? why do you need the Bitcoin to be "traded"?
make  1 BTC = 1 USD and done. no price fluctuation

No, you need the price fluctuation in order to get new fouls otherwise will be like any other e-currency.

php is a relatively old technology and people who participate in HYIP's run from php script scam websites do not participate in php technology in the same way bitcoin users do with the blockchain. The blockchain has many uses and is still in its infancy. A php script scam website is not participating in changing technology in any way whatsoever. Bitcoin services, major investments in many bitcoin projects, and the blockchain itself is an unprecedented technology.

Charles Hoskinson says Bitcoin-related technology is about to revolutionise property rights, banking, remote education, private law and crowd-funding for the developing world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97ufCT6lQcY

http://www.forbes.com/sites/johnvillasenor/2014/05/12/the-future-of-innovation-five-things-we-can-learn-from-bitcoin/

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

There are much more articles out there but I am not going to waste any more time on this joke of a thread.

There are many uses for bitcoin blockchain.

I don't need to appear in the news at all. Bitcoin is a decentralized technology and no one individual owns it. If you are thinking of bitcoin as a company shows how little you understand it. It is nothing "like any other e-currency" at all.

The technology has everything to do with it. Bitcoin is at its core an unprecedented technology and even the World Bank agrees it is not a Ponzi but of course you must be right  

For every arbitrary youtube vid/article you quote in your one-sided shill argument, I could quote another 10 negative articles outlining why this is no more than a speculative bubble that will soon collapse.

Look.  I'm not doubting that the bitcoin fundamentals were quite impressive.  In an 'idealistic' society, it would have flourished 10-100 fold by now, and perhaps been the next 'tablet computer' of payment processing.

However, majority of the technology fell into the wrong hands, casting a negative cloud over it that could not and cannot be remedied.

Every single one of the biggest and supposedly most trusted exchanges all go down due to hacks/scams...new coin ipo scams galore, and basically every other perspective new start up involving some form of scamming in one way or another.

Then there's Silkroad 1 and 2.  

I'm not even going to include the amount of p2p scamming that goes on on an individual basis on forums either.  

With all this negative press, do you think any new large scale corporations are going to actually spend time and money to implement it? Come on dude, this is common sense.  Take off your rose colored blinders.  Without new adoption...it's going nowhere...unless you're happy with just trading worthless coins to joe bloe in India like hoarding Farmville money...maybe that's your thing.

You're in denial man.  It's a burning/sinking ship..and it will take you down with it.  So be it though.  So long as you're 'happy' with the fundamentals, it shouldn't matter if you lose every penny you spent, amirite? That's a great way of looking at things though  

There's been a surge of legitimate bitcoin adoption in the last year according to the figures.

I love the technology and I know it will survive so I don't even think there is a sinking ship to worry about

Someone did a study and the overwhelming majority of transactions were for legitimate purposes.

People are investing millions in bitcoin startups and infrastructure now precisely because it has shrug off the "dark net" associations you refer to. That was a big issue maybe 2 years ago but not anymore.

The negative press doesn't mention that over a 2 year period bitcoin has probably been the best investment on the planet. Sure it's hard a hard year. Nothing's perfect I don't have rose colored glasses I've just seen it all before, and I know that right now bitcoin is still maturing at a phenomenal rate considering the newness of the tech. People were saying bitcoin won't go anywhere when it was worth $1 and people are still saying it now. Nothing's changed in that department

There are also decentralized exchange solutions like XCP that don't rely on a centralized exchange. Ripple also has an interesting solution to this problem. Sure it's still new technology whoever doesn't think that is blind. But that also means it has a long way to go and considering it's age it's nothing short of phenomenal as far as new technologies go.

I also think the fact more and more people keep using and developing with bitcoin even with the hacks and scandals shows the real staying power of the idea of bitcoin. I see the glass half full you see it half empty that's all

If bitcoin ever did have the crash you refer to I would buy as many as possible that's for sure.

EDIT: I think I read somewhere that with current mining tech / costs it is not worth selling bitcoins for less than $200 so I would be very suprised if it did go sub 200. If there was a big shrug off of mining infrastructure as a result of sub $200 coins I would be buying a lot. Bitcoin would be back if that ever happened. But people will refuse to sell for less than $200 and I find it extremely unlikely. It is a black swan event (highly unlikely catastrophic scenario).

This is the problem. 2014 was actually a great year for Bitcoin. It is accepted all over the world, millions of dollars went into Bitcoin VC's and loads of new and useful apps that help Bitcoin were developed. Yet the price seemed to consistently trend generally downwards, why?  

My opinion atm is the following.

1. 10% inflation is quite a lot in a bear market. Most of the new coins that are mined need to be quickly sold to recoup costs that means it eats away $1 million of the BTC buy wall a day at the current CAP. Easy to overcome in high demand times but not so in a bear market. (LiteCoin with 3X more inflation (30%) fell perhaps uncoincidentally 3X more than Bitcoin last year.)

2. VOLATILITY - This is the big one and unfortunately what makes Bitcoin non viable imo. Businesses work on tight margins and they can't hold Bitcoin due to it's volatility, therefore a sale in crypto becomes a sale of crypto.
When we were all hoarding Bitcoin with little to spend it on, there was not a lot coming up for sale. New demand had to chase new coins.  However now people use it to buy millions of dollars of goods a month. As stated though most businesses sell it immediately for fiat. Imagine if every time you went into a shop, the shop instead of circulating your dollars had to sell them for Yen.
As a sale in crypto is a sale of crypto, I just don't think it's viable. This is what we're seeing at the moment imo - the more utility crypto gains the more sell pressure is created.

This is the main reason I've taken an interest in decentralized stable asset alternatives & I'm essentially a BitShares evangelist. Besides having a decentralized exchange which solves a lot of the BitStamp/Gox type problems, I really think stable assets will transform crypto in 2015.

[newIndia]

I want to know if anybody in the Bitcoin community think that Bitcoin is a big ponzi scheme like Bernie Madoff. If so please vote Yes or No. Also, please explain why you think that.

Ponzi is possible for things where market value is fixed. When bitcoin used to spread, it had zero value. And its value appreciates with more adoption. So, it is against the basic concept of ponzi where the root gains value from its branches.

[Flashman]

the basic concept of ponzi where the root gains value from its branches.

OMFG, trees are natures ponzi schemes.... burn them all!!!!!