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Author Topic: ChainProfit.com - 27+ BTC Paid | 140% Return | Running over four months now  (Read 28096 times)
dyask
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January 16, 2015, 12:54:23 PM
 #41

The source is mostly very simple, e.g.:
Code:
function getLuckyNumber($serverSeed, $clientSeed, $incrementalNonce) {
    $seed = $serverSeed . '-' . $clientSeed . '-' . $incrementalNonce;
    do {
        $seed = sha1($seed);
        $lucky = hexdec(substr($seed,0,8));
    } while ($lucky > 4294960000);
    return ($lucky % 10000) / 100;
}

Sure assuming that is the code that is used for a given game.  The owner of the game really can do what the want.   They don't even have to provide source.   In any case I bet a great many people are clueless what sha1 is.  That is only one avenue of attack.   The point proof only prove what it was set up for.   If you aren't attacking dice rolls there are many other cheats that can be built in.   Or you don't even have to cheat, you just have to know what will happen from a given computer.  

My point is simple, I don't think a dice game is anymore trustworthy than a Ponzi game.   They all have the same basic problem, that is they have to be trustworthy in the first place.

With a dice game you have the site gaining off of a small edge.   Probably most of these sites are legit.   However if you play it, you will only lose value over time.   The house edge will slowly but surely take everything away from you.   I don't see why that is held up as a shinning example of something fair.  
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dyask
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January 16, 2015, 12:58:01 PM
 #42

Whenever you want to build provably game but as long as ponzi scheme exist, you will never build a provably fair ponzi.

As we know Ponzi scheme will scam people in the end.
Better gambling it rather invest into ponzi

This is exactly what I disagree with.   You call losing your deposit a scam.   Well if you gamble enough with a legit gambling site, you will also lose your stake.   In both cases you lose everything, yet one is ok and the other isn't.   In both cases you also have a risk of being scammed by an operator, but one is okay and the other isn't?   
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January 16, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
 #43

we cant create a fair ponzi game
because fair and ponzi is diffirent world
it cant be in same sentences...

Ponzi schemes are everywhere, mostly used by governments.   Most people are just seem blind to them.

Besides Ponzi schemes, there are pyramid schemes of a vast variety.   They are a primary reason I really dislike affiliate programs.  

There are addiction schemes with drugs (even tobacco).

Then there is just plain old gambling which is a 100% sure way of losing all your wealth.  

How are any of these things better?

EDIT: Sorry ... I just realized I was off topic. 
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January 16, 2015, 01:29:16 PM
 #44

.. The operator could easily invest their own money into the ponzi from various addresses, knowing that they would have the money returned to them even if they have to payout to other investors. If they do not receive enough money then they simply run away with their own money plus the money of their other investors.


The idea with ponzi games is that the operator does not play. Its PvP players gamble against each other and the operator gets a little bonus for providing the service. Youd have to prove this for a ponzi to be provably fair. So you have to prove that a certain person and their friends are not playing. Proving a negative is considered impossible.

tl;dr: A provably fair ponzi would have to prove either that the operators are not playing or make sure that everyone is a player.....


This ^^^^.
Until you can solve that conundrum, there is no way that any ponzi game can be considered legit or fair.

Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
febriyana
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January 16, 2015, 01:38:40 PM
 #45

Ponzi make a provably fair,
I think that is not ponzi,
but gambling  Grin
dyask
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January 16, 2015, 01:43:03 PM
 #46

.. The operator could easily invest their own money into the ponzi from various addresses, knowing that they would have the money returned to them even if they have to payout to other investors. If they do not receive enough money then they simply run away with their own money plus the money of their other investors.


The idea with ponzi games is that the operator does not play. Its PvP players gamble against each other and the operator gets a little bonus for providing the service. Youd have to prove this for a ponzi to be provably fair. So you have to prove that a certain person and their friends are not playing. Proving a negative is considered impossible.

tl;dr: A provably fair ponzi would have to prove either that the operators are not playing or make sure that everyone is a player.....


This ^^^^.
Until you can solve that conundrum, there is no way that any ponzi game can be considered legit or fair.

Agreed, but a dice site could be designed so that the operator can always place winning bets and he is the only one that can do that.    That could even be done with the standard provable code provided you don't share all the code of the system.   How is that any different than the Ponzi game problem?  

It gets back to one thing.   You have to have trust in the operator.   If the operator is dishonest, it doesn't matter what the game is.   I'm baffled by how naïve people are.    

EDIT:  I have no idea why the operator would want to do that, unless is was a backdoor to scam the site. 
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January 16, 2015, 04:12:50 PM
 #47

The source is mostly very simple, e.g.:
Code:
function getLuckyNumber($serverSeed, $clientSeed, $incrementalNonce) {
    $seed = $serverSeed . '-' . $clientSeed . '-' . $incrementalNonce;
    do {
        $seed = sha1($seed);
        $lucky = hexdec(substr($seed,0,8));
    } while ($lucky > 4294960000);
    return ($lucky % 10000) / 100;
}

Sure assuming that is the code that is used for a given game.  

If its not the rolls with be different.

The owner of the game really can do what the want.   They don't even have to provide source.  

If they dont they will be considered untrustworthy.

In any case I bet a great many people are clueless what sha1 is.  

Its not important to understand the details as long as you can verify the rolls with someone neutral or someone you trust.

-snip-
My point is simple, I don't think a dice game is anymore trustworthy than a Ponzi game.   They all have the same basic problem, that is they have to be trustworthy in the first place.

Thats your opinion. I am not convinced, but lets assume for a second this is true. How does it help you? You are trying over and over again to argue that something different (state, dice sites) is not trustworthy which does nothing to support your cause.

With a dice game you have the site gaining off of a small edge.   Probably most of these sites are legit.   However if you play it, you will only lose value over time.   The house edge will slowly but surely take everything away from you.   I don't see why that is held up as a shinning example of something fair.  

Because the odds are known and the rolls can be verified. Of course the casino is profitable long term otherwise no one would run one.

-snip-
This is exactly what I disagree with.   You call losing your deposit a scam.   Well if you gamble enough with a legit gambling site, you will also lose your stake.   In both cases you lose everything, yet one is ok and the other isn't.   

One is fair the other is arbitrary thats the difference.

In both cases you also have a risk of being scammed by an operator, but one is okay and the other isn't?   

The same risk as everywhere exchanges, online gambling, even the trustworthy escrowers here. If the operator for some unknown reason decides to stop beeing honest there is nothing you can do about it. But at least it is immediatly known. A ponzi can be dishonest, but it can not be detected.

-snip-
Agreed, but a dice site could be designed so that the operator can always place winning bets and he is the only one that can do that.    That could even be done with the standard provable code provided you don't share all the code of the system.   How is that any different than the Ponzi game problem?   

Thanks for confirming my hunch. You dont actually do not understand how this works, do you? If the operator of a dice site wants to cheat themselves out of their own money, I am perfectly fine with it. If the operator of a dice site uses the knowledge of the server seed to win at their own site, they win their own money.

It gets back to one thing.   You have to have trust in the operator.   If the operator is dishonest, it doesn't matter what the game is.   I'm baffled by how naïve people are.     

This is common knowledge, you brought this up to try and defend the ponzis while it is not even defending the ponzi. You try to attack provably fair - well known and established concept you apparently do not understand - in order to gain nothing.


tl;dr:
#1 A ponzi can only be fair if the operator does not play. This can not be proven. Great minds have tried for centuries. Go ahead and try it. I will applaud your success should you succeed.

#2 Whether or not dice sites and provably fair gambling can be cheated is not part of the discussion as it has nothing to do with ponzis

#3 Every time you give bitcoins to someone else, like the operator of any (!) site in order to do anything you are at risk of getting scammed. This is not an argument for ponzis. This is a general risk of the Internet.

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January 16, 2015, 04:44:22 PM
 #48

Ponzi Games are getting interesting, but as well as it is getting risky. Operators are keeping things hazy to the investors. As a coder I am preparing to launch a provably fair ponzi game. Would like to know what are the points people are suggesting to cover so that we can minimize the risk as well as make it provably fair and interesting.

Ideas are welcome. Please make this discussion constructive...

Ponzi schemes by definition end up in the moment the author of the scheme decides to run away with the money that was collected. What would you like to have provably fair? The probability that the scammer runs away after, say two days? Please clarify what you really mean.
Minimizing the risks? Well, I bet none of the Ponzi authors would agree for an honest and renowned escrow (with positive trust) for some fixed amount of time.

this space is intentionally left blank
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January 16, 2015, 04:59:58 PM
 #49

Ponzi schemes for definition can't be fair... At the very most you may think to create some pyramidal or multilevel scheme which isn't a complete scam.

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January 16, 2015, 05:33:01 PM
 #50

I don't see how does the operator can take the big advantages of a ponzi scheme, if it isn't a big deposit ponzi. For amounts upto 1-2 BTC they could hardly get anything by depositing. And if they deposit something big at the first deposit, then people tend to stay away and not deposit.

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January 16, 2015, 05:40:39 PM
 #51

I don't see how does the operator can take the big advantages of a ponzi scheme, if it isn't a big deposit ponzi. For amounts upto 1-2 BTC they could hardly get anything by depositing. And if they deposit something big at the first deposit, then people tend to stay away and not deposit.

Instead of making a big "fake" deposit in the beginning, the operator can make many small and a few big "fake" deposits. The outsiders will have an impression that the ponzi is popular and lots of people are willing to put their money in it (when it is not).

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January 16, 2015, 05:46:14 PM
 #52

you can have a legit escrow person to hold the funds, so the operator doesnt get to touch the final balance.
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January 16, 2015, 05:48:11 PM
 #53

you can have a legit escrow person to hold the funds, so the operator doesnt get to touch the final balance.

How does that prove that the operator is not playing?

┏(-_-)┛┗(-_- )┓┗(-_-)┛┏(-_-)┓
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January 16, 2015, 06:00:18 PM
 #54

Ponzi can be good with some strict rules and guarantees for last investors.
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January 16, 2015, 06:12:03 PM
 #55

Ponzi can be good with some strict rules and guarantees for last investors.

How does that work?

You have a 150% ponzi game payout with 5% fees. To pay out the first 100BTC of bets means that the last 55BTC in bets is lost.

That's definitely guaranteed.

Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
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January 16, 2015, 06:24:00 PM
 #56

you can have a legit escrow person to hold the funds, so the operator doesnt get to touch the final balance.

How does that prove that the operator is not playing?

Every user should sign his own wallet to prove that its his.
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January 16, 2015, 06:30:06 PM
 #57

Ponzi Games are getting interesting, but as well as it is getting risky. Operators are keeping things hazy to the investors. As a coder I am preparing to launch a provably fair ponzi game. Would like to know what are the points people are suggesting to cover so that we can minimize the risk as well as make it provably fair and interesting.

Ideas are welcome. Please make this discussion constructive...



Ponzi Games ? ... your IQ must be well below zero ...
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January 16, 2015, 06:34:58 PM
 #58

regardless of escrow you need to look up the definition of what a ponzi means lol.
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January 16, 2015, 07:01:38 PM
 #59

you can have a legit escrow person to hold the funds, so the operator doesnt get to touch the final balance.

How does that prove that the operator is not playing?

Every user should sign his own wallet to prove that its his.


Ok, operator creates 5 alts. How do you stop this?

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January 16, 2015, 07:40:10 PM
 #60

Ponzi can be good with some strict rules and guarantees for last investors.

I dont think any ponzi is any good at all. Regardless of the rules and everything you just said.

Operator leaves end of story.
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