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Author Topic: ChainProfit.com - 27+ BTC Paid | 140% Return | Running over four months now  (Read 28098 times)
rammy2k2
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January 16, 2015, 07:50:59 PM
 #61

Ponzi can be good with some strict rules and guarantees for last investors.

how old are u ? do u know what a ponzi is or you're another fake account of op ?
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January 16, 2015, 10:03:09 PM
 #62


tl;dr:
#1 A ponzi can only be fair if the operator does not play. This can not be proven. Great minds have tried for centuries. Go ahead and try it. I will applaud your success should you succeed.

#2 Whether or not dice sites and provably fair gambling can be cheated is not part of the discussion as it has nothing to do with ponzis

#3 Every time you give bitcoins to someone else, like the operator of any (!) site in order to do anything you are at risk of getting scammed. This is not an argument for ponzis. This is a general risk of the Internet.


1. Even if I assume that operators are playing, what is wrong with that ? The point is to cover the investment of the last investor and awaiting to be covered by another investor. I am not sure which ponzi game rule you are talking about. But, in my game, even operators have to wait for the next investor to be paid or they'll lose their investment. Unlike dice sites, there is no seed here that operators know. The only way a ponzi game operator can scam, that I can imagine, is running away with all the deposits, but same is true for dice site owners as well, especially those are accepting investments.

2. It is becoming part of the discussion, because no dice site owner is getting lebelled as scammer, but this is happening for ponzi game owners for being in the same business of gambling.

3. As u have said, this risk is part of all the dice sites as well...

► Wondering if I am trusted ? Read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1060467.0
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January 16, 2015, 10:10:26 PM
 #63

A Ponzi can never ever be provably fair. An owner can (and most likely will) put money into it, this to make it seem like it's active and attract new players. Nothing can or will prevent that. It's impossible.

I 100% agree with you. An owner can put money in his own ponzi game to attract investment. But, a dice site owner can also play in his own game to attract players. None of this are scam, because none of this are disturbing the probaility of win of any individual. There should be another investor in a ponzi game after one's investment. If the last investor is owner, he will lose, if the last investor is anyone else, he'll lose. Which part is scam here ? This is simple probability !!!

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January 16, 2015, 10:37:08 PM
 #64

A Ponzi can never ever be provably fair. An owner can (and most likely will) put money into it, this to make it seem like it's active and attract new players. Nothing can or will prevent that. It's impossible.

I 100% agree with you. An owner can put money in his own ponzi game to attract investment. But, a dice site owner can also play in his own game to attract players. None of this are scam, because none of this are disturbing the probaility of win of any individual. There should be another investor in a ponzi game after one's investment. If the last investor is owner, he will lose, if the last investor is anyone else, he'll lose. Which part is scam here ? This is simple probability !!!

Nonsense.

Yes, many businesses can use methods that make them look busier, without actually defrauding their customers.
BUT
The ponzi owner also can make sure he is at the front of his own queue. He takes the majority of the failed late bet money for himself.
Of course it's a scam!!
You are trying to convince yourself (and us) that it will be possible to trust a ponzi based game to be fair.
The answer is NO.

Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence
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January 16, 2015, 11:19:59 PM
 #65

A Ponzi can never ever be provably fair. An owner can (and most likely will) put money into it, this to make it seem like it's active and attract new players. Nothing can or will prevent that. It's impossible.

I 100% agree with you. An owner can put money in his own ponzi game to attract investment. But, a dice site owner can also play in his own game to attract players. None of this are scam, because none of this are disturbing the probaility of win of any individual. There should be another investor in a ponzi game after one's investment. If the last investor is owner, he will lose, if the last investor is anyone else, he'll lose. Which part is scam here ? This is simple probability !!!
Well, but there is huge difference in the way a dice site and a ponzi scheme works.
In Ponzi, by definition the game must end at some point, with the last people coming to the party eating all the loss. This is how a Ponzi scheme works.
Now, dice sites, in theory at least, have the guarantee of winning  in the long term by having the house edge. That is what makes them work. And yes, there some
scamers as well who run out with people's money, but at least in theory, dice site can be profitable without that. Ponzi can't.

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January 16, 2015, 11:58:29 PM
 #66

A Ponzi can never ever be provably fair. An owner can (and most likely will) put money into it, this to make it seem like it's active and attract new players. Nothing can or will prevent that. It's impossible.

I 100% agree with you. An owner can put money in his own ponzi game to attract investment. But, a dice site owner can also play in his own game to attract players. None of this are scam, because none of this are disturbing the probaility of win of any individual. There should be another investor in a ponzi game after one's investment. If the last investor is owner, he will lose, if the last investor is anyone else, he'll lose. Which part is scam here ? This is simple probability !!!
Well, but there is huge difference in the way a dice site and a ponzi scheme works.
In Ponzi, by definition the game must end at some point, with the last people coming to the party eating all the loss. This is how a Ponzi scheme works.
Now, dice sites, in theory at least, have the guarantee of winning  in the long term by having the house edge. That is what makes them work. And yes, there some
scamers as well who run out with people's money, but at least in theory, dice site can be profitable without that. Ponzi can't.

Well dice games have been ending with "hackers" stealing the coins.   But it is an undefined ending.   

However, right now I'm not very supportive of the current Ponzi games.
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January 17, 2015, 12:07:34 AM
 #67

[Now, dice sites, in theory at least, have the guarantee of winning  in the long term by having the house edge. That is what makes them work. And yes, there some
scamers as well who run out with people's money, but at least in theory, dice site can be profitable without that. Ponzi can't.

Ponzi's have a "house edge" too. It's the % operator fee they take. It's completely possible to run profitable honest Ponzi games without stealing anything, just being upfront with everyone about how the game works, just like Dice sites!
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January 17, 2015, 12:08:58 AM
 #68

Ponzi Games are getting interesting, but as well as it is getting risky. Operators are keeping things hazy to the investors. As a coder I am preparing to launch a provably fair ponzi game. Would like to know what are the points people are suggesting to cover so that we can minimize the risk as well as make it provably fair and interesting.

I think this topic is fascinating.  Ponzi schemes are, as previously discussed on this thread, fraudulent investment schemes, where new investors bring in the capital that is used to pay earlier investors.  That continues only until new investors become scarce.  Bernie Madoff may have set records in this area.

Ponzi games, the subject header says, and the posts in this thread seem to suggest, are different, in that the intention of the activity is not to pretend that you are investing, but to indicate that you are playing a game.  So, then, what is the game?

For a game to be "provably fair" people would have to know the rules of the game.  For example, there is the game "21" or "blackjack" which is a card game played at casinos, online, and in private settings.  The rules are detailed, and whether the dealer has to "hit" on sixteen or seventeen makes a difference.  Whether there are 52 cards in the show, or six times as many, makes a difference.  Whether card counting is permitted (in a meat-space casino, typically not) makes a difference.

I've seen high yield income programmes (HYIPs) come and go.  Mostly, they go before the latest players get much fun out of them.  So, if one is to evaluate a game and try to say whether it is fair, someone needs to go over the rules.
DoubleMyCoins!
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January 17, 2015, 12:18:35 AM
 #69

Ponzi games, the subject header says, and the posts in this thread seem to suggest, are different, in that the intention of the activity is not to pretend that you are investing, but to indicate that you are playing a game.  So, then, what is the game?

I agree!

That's why PonziWOW clearly refers to everything as a "game" with players, and how it works. It also reminds people the last investors before the round ends have the highest chance of not being paid. In our case, though, we also have an alternating lottery system allowing random players to be paid as well.
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January 17, 2015, 12:54:46 AM
 #70

[Now, dice sites, in theory at least, have the guarantee of winning  in the long term by having the house edge. That is what makes them work. And yes, there some
scamers as well who run out with people's money, but at least in theory, dice site can be profitable without that. Ponzi can't.

Ponzi's have a "house edge" too. It's the % operator fee they take. It's completely possible to run profitable honest Ponzi games without stealing anything, just being upfront with everyone about how the game works, just like Dice sites!

That is what I was thinking.   So far I haven't seen much proof of it.  The problem is the same with all of they games.   The are set up by people because of greed and it seems that greed is often stronger than honor.  

EDIT: So many of these Ponzi games now.   Clearly greed is the primary motivation.   That is the primary problem.
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January 17, 2015, 01:05:11 AM
 #71

[Now, dice sites, in theory at least, have the guarantee of winning  in the long term by having the house edge. That is what makes them work. And yes, there some
scamers as well who run out with people's money, but at least in theory, dice site can be profitable without that. Ponzi can't.

Ponzi's have a "house edge" too. It's the % operator fee they take. It's completely possible to run profitable honest Ponzi games without stealing anything, just being upfront with everyone about how the game works, just like Dice sites!

That is what I was thinking.   So far I haven't seen much proof of it.  The problem is the same with all of they games.   The are set up by people because of greed and it seems that greed is often stronger than honor.   

Yes, I hear what you're saying. I think it's a shame and it's true many people on this board have no sense of value or care, no respect for themselves or others. It's hard to find somebody that is trying to do the right thing, like Dooglus for example, so people have to be vigilant. I think it's possible with Ponzi systems so long as the payouts happen transparently, accurately and timely.  I screwed up big time with a small technical issue which delayed payments that were waiting to go out. It was an honest mistake, but it makes it look like I'm trying to pull something.
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January 17, 2015, 02:11:27 AM
 #72

Ponzi Games are getting interesting, but as well as it is getting risky. Operators are keeping things hazy to the investors. As a coder I am preparing to launch a provably fair ponzi game. Would like to know what are the points people are suggesting to cover so that we can minimize the risk as well as make it provably fair and interesting.

Ideas are welcome. Please make this discussion constructive...



Ponzi Games ? ... your IQ must be well below zero ...

You just throw out these simple statements all the time.   How do you support gambling and making statements like that?  Do you hold an interest in a gambling site?  

Anyway these games are not proper Ponzi schemes.  There are risks but there are risk of any kind of BTC game.   From http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/ponzi_scheme

Ponzi scheme
 
Definition

A type of investment fraud in which investors are promised artificially high rates of return with little or no risk; original investors and the perpetrators of the fraud are paid off by funds from later investors, but there is little or no actual business activity that produces revenue. The scheme generates funds for previous investors so long as there is a consistent flow of funds from new investors. This gives the impression that the earlier investments drastically increased in value in a short period of time. The scheme inevitably collapses when too many investors demand redemption or the scheme fails to attract a sufficient number of new investments. The Ponzi scheme is named after Charles Ponzi, who in the 1920s defrauded thousands of investors in Boston.

==================================================================

So far I don't see people promising high rates of return with little or no risk.   These games are clearly labelled how they work.

The only valid issues that I've heard are:
1) There isn't a good way to know the operator doesn't put in his deposits early.   However these sites do charge high fees so it is unlikely they want to make money that way as that would discourage the deposits they need.
2) The operator could just run away with the funds.   That is a common risk to many games, not just these Ponzi style games.

Anyway, in many places it is illegal to gamble unless the government is running the game, so in that context these would be illegal.   However it is unclear if these games would be illegal where gambling is legal.   I don't know of any court cases.    So claiming they are illegal is just blowing smoke.  

However, I do agree these games are very high risk.   It isn't clear that the risk is really worth the award.  
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January 17, 2015, 02:56:38 PM
 #73


tl;dr:
#1 A ponzi can only be fair if the operator does not play. This can not be proven. Great minds have tried for centuries. Go ahead and try it. I will applaud your success should you succeed.

#2 Whether or not dice sites and provably fair gambling can be cheated is not part of the discussion as it has nothing to do with ponzis

#3 Every time you give bitcoins to someone else, like the operator of any (!) site in order to do anything you are at risk of getting scammed. This is not an argument for ponzis. This is a general risk of the Internet.


1. Even if I assume that operators are playing, what is wrong with that ? The point is to cover the investment of the last investor and awaiting to be covered by another investor. I am not sure which ponzi game rule you are talking about. But, in my game, even operators have to wait for the next investor to be paid or they'll lose their investment. Unlike dice sites, there is no seed here that operators know. The only way a ponzi game operator can scam, that I can imagine, is running away with all the deposits, but same is true for dice site owners as well, especially those are accepting investments.

2. It is becoming part of the discussion, because no dice site owner is getting lebelled as scammer, but this is happening for ponzi game owners for being in the same business of gambling.

The operator play their own ponzi has no risk. Dice sites are not the same, they are proably fair. Stop repeating the same arguments over and over you allready know my answers. You just ignore the answers because you have no more arguments.

A ponzi is PvP, dice sites are Player vs House.

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January 17, 2015, 05:52:44 PM
 #74

just like someone mentioned, I dont think a scam can be provably fair lol.
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January 17, 2015, 06:39:17 PM
 #75

you would have to do it like a bit coin  casino with the code after every roll.
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January 17, 2015, 06:47:13 PM
 #76

you would have to do it like a bit coin  casino with the code after every roll.

so youre saying every roll, you gain 30% profit? ponzis only work based on deposits. so they means the principal has to keep growing to pay per roll.
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January 17, 2015, 08:36:53 PM
 #77

You can't make a provable one, all you can make is a trusted one, which is gained over time. Weeklyponzi is trusted because it has been around for a year. Other ones are not so trust worthy.
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January 17, 2015, 08:56:23 PM
 #78

provably fair and ponzi is contradictory, ponzis are a scam that steals money from "investors" to drive the "game" and provably fair games are games of chance. the two can never go together.
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January 17, 2015, 09:15:33 PM
 #79

Ponzi by definition always pays until it dies, does not need to be provably fair. Provably fair are for gambling games, not scams.
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January 17, 2015, 09:19:25 PM
 #80

Ponzi by definition always pays until it dies, does not need to be provably fair. Provably fair are for gambling games, not scams.
i really agree with u.. only check blockchain to see hot wallet, our transaction.. when people do not join it.. we have lost our money

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