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Warning: You are in the Gambling section. You are likely to eventually lose any money that you gamble/"invest". Additionally, moderators do not remove likely scams. You must use your own brain: caveat emptor. Do not gamble more than you can afford to lose.

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Author Topic: ChainProfit.com - 27+ BTC Paid | 140% Return | Running over four months now  (Read 28092 times)
CrazyJoker
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January 18, 2015, 12:10:31 AM
 #81

For those, who are confusing between Ponzi Games are different from Dice Games and same as Ponzi Schemes, this post might appear helpful. Please read it at least once...

What is the final purpose of a ponzi schemes ? I think all we know the history or not ?

Their purpose? To make money for the owners? like any other business

Ok , thanks for the information. So in this case all the ponzi schemes are legit , no problem.

Not all. Are all the dice sites legit?

Let me break it down for everyone:

Argument #1: Ponzi sites are illegal
So are gambling websites that don't have the proper gambling licenses.
So are Bitcoin exchanges that do not have the proper money transmitter licenses or AML procedures.
So are lenders that don't abide by payday loan laws.
So are public performances of the song "Happy birthday to you" which is copyrighted by Warner/Chappell Music.

Argument #2: All ponzi sites are a scam

If the ponzi site fulfills their side of the deal and does exactly what they promise and both parties are willingly trading, where did the scam occur?

Argument #3: Ponzi's should be banned because they make Bitcoin look "bad"
Instead of banning ponzi's, why don't we make things a bit better and form a mining cartel, make a blacklist of bitcoin addresses known to be used by ponzi sites and never confirm any ponzi site payments?

 Wink

The general ethos of Bitcoin is for free market trade and against regulation. How can you actually believe that and at the same time be trying to ban people from using Bitcoin because it makes Bitcoin look bad?

Argument #4: Most ponzi sites aren't provably fair so they are scams
There is probably a way to make ponzi sites provably fair using tx scripts. But if ponzi sites are a scam due to the lack of provably fair, then so are all gambling sites that don't have provably fair, such as poker sites and sportsbook websites.

Argument #5: Ponzi's arent entertainment
People have different opinions on what entertainment is. It may not be entertaining for you, but I'm sure its entertaining for others.

Argument #6: Ponzi's are scams because people will lose money
There will always be people who lose money on any gambling website. Otherwise the website would be losing money.

Thats all the arguments I can think of right now.

► Wondering if I am trusted ? Read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1060467.0
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I HATE TABLES I HATE TABLES I HA(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ TABLES I HATE TABLES I HATE TABLES
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January 18, 2015, 12:30:06 AM
 #82

Is not a game, you can't do that. Other person needs to send money on top of the latest one.

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CrazyJoker
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January 18, 2015, 12:47:46 AM
 #83

Is not a game, you can't do that. Other person needs to send money on top of the latest one.

This is a Ponzi Game. Not a Ponzi Scheme. Ponzi schemes don't tell you they are ponzis. These games do, because they are telling people that giving their money is a gamble, you may or may not get it back. People should know that because they freaking tell you...

It is like boxing. If you start boxing with a random person on street, it is a crime. But, if u do it in the boxing ring, it is a game.

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January 18, 2015, 01:35:38 AM
 #84

A ponzi game will be fair only when :
1-the runner of the game, ponzi site, is honest
Well at the startup there is nothing that may proove whether a ponzi site owner is honest or not, however a surviving site will get positive feedbacks in the forums, that may be an indication of his honesty. Unfortunately there is nothing to guarantee it.

2- rules are described clearly and explained in details to make sure even the btc novice makes no mistakes
And assuming this is an honest site, it follows the rules set. And explaining the rules in detail is crucial because, for example, some novices are unaware what an exchange is and that if they use an exchange to send coins the ponzi site will return their earning to the exchange site which is not their own bitcoin address and that they will not receive those coins

3-site is never down during the game
Because this will stop or slow the pace significantly and the chance of latest senders will be lost

4-there are no bugs, and no errors
Such as wrong payment orders

5-show the list of players with all details, including time stamp, payment status etc.
Because a player has right to see them to decide on his chance to win and take the risk or not

6-the owner should not play himself
I don't know how we can be sure of that

Only in this case it can be a trusted one, however since this is gambling, without a license the most honest ponzi will be the most honest illegal ponzi at most.

There are many ways to design such a game to keep it going, such as paying an even greater prize to the last sender of coins, or even greater sum to one of the last 5 senders at random, or to 3 of last 15 senders etc.
Of course there is again a question of impossibility of being sure the prize draw is really random.

If such criteria is established by a non-greedy and honest runner, he can build others confidence  in him, and he can earn little but he can earn continually. However I think it is impossible to be sure of the honesty, I dont know. And it will always be illegal anyway.

I played and I lost and I think playing is being at the mercy of another who has the peace of mind that he wont loose anything and I do not like it, and therefore I do not think I will play again. Nearly all of them are scams anyway.
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January 18, 2015, 08:07:30 AM
 #85

A ponzi game will be fair only when :
1-the runner of the game, ponzi site, is honest
Well at the startup there is nothing that may proove whether a ponzi site owner is honest or not, however a surviving site will get positive feedbacks in the forums, that may be an indication of his honesty. Unfortunately there is nothing to guarantee it.

2- rules are described clearly and explained in details to make sure even the btc novice makes no mistakes
And assuming this is an honest site, it follows the rules set. And explaining the rules in detail is crucial because, for example, some novices are unaware what an exchange is and that if they use an exchange to send coins the ponzi site will return their earning to the exchange site which is not their own bitcoin address and that they will not receive those coins

3-site is never down during the game
Because this will stop or slow the pace significantly and the chance of latest senders will be lost

4-there are no bugs, and no errors
Such as wrong payment orders

5-show the list of players with all details, including time stamp, payment status etc.
Because a player has right to see them to decide on his chance to win and take the risk or not

6-the owner should not play himself
I don't know how we can be sure of that

Your list applies equally to all crypto gambling.    Wink
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January 18, 2015, 08:57:52 AM
 #86

A ponzi game will be fair only when :
1-the runner of the game, ponzi site, is honest
Well at the startup there is nothing that may proove whether a ponzi site owner is honest or not, however a surviving site will get positive feedbacks in the forums, that may be an indication of his honesty. Unfortunately there is nothing to guarantee it.

2- rules are described clearly and explained in details to make sure even the btc novice makes no mistakes
And assuming this is an honest site, it follows the rules set. And explaining the rules in detail is crucial because, for example, some novices are unaware what an exchange is and that if they use an exchange to send coins the ponzi site will return their earning to the exchange site which is not their own bitcoin address and that they will not receive those coins

3-site is never down during the game
Because this will stop or slow the pace significantly and the chance of latest senders will be lost

4-there are no bugs, and no errors
Such as wrong payment orders

5-show the list of players with all details, including time stamp, payment status etc.
Because a player has right to see them to decide on his chance to win and take the risk or not

6-the owner should not play himself
I don't know how we can be sure of that

Your list applies equally to all crypto gambling.    Wink

No, 6 is a unique problem for ponzi games. A dice site operator playing against their own money does not affect the players.

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January 18, 2015, 11:24:01 AM
 #87

We are on it
-shameless advertising-

How do you solve issue 6 from the list above?

IMHO you are clearly lacking in terms of issue 2. From your description it sounds as if only one person could lose.

Your approach to issue 1 is basically: "we are honest", which is not helping. There is nothing about prior runs or similar things that might make you stand out from the other fresh faces. Even your youtube account is brand new. The video has a spelling error "best choise" instead of choice twice and does not inform about the risks at all.

The get in touch section on your homepage is not filled, its missing a phone number and location.

The overall impression is that you are incompetent at best. It all smells like a quick and careless setup. I am certain there will be a site that looks very similar next week.

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January 18, 2015, 12:48:33 PM
 #88

A ponzi game will be fair only when :
1-the runner of the game, ponzi site, is honest
Well at the startup there is nothing that may proove whether a ponzi site owner is honest or not, however a surviving site will get positive feedbacks in the forums, that may be an indication of his honesty. Unfortunately there is nothing to guarantee it.

2- rules are described clearly and explained in details to make sure even the btc novice makes no mistakes
And assuming this is an honest site, it follows the rules set. And explaining the rules in detail is crucial because, for example, some novices are unaware what an exchange is and that if they use an exchange to send coins the ponzi site will return their earning to the exchange site which is not their own bitcoin address and that they will not receive those coins

3-site is never down during the game
Because this will stop or slow the pace significantly and the chance of latest senders will be lost

4-there are no bugs, and no errors
Such as wrong payment orders

5-show the list of players with all details, including time stamp, payment status etc.
Because a player has right to see them to decide on his chance to win and take the risk or not

6-the owner should not play himself
I don't know how we can be sure of that

Your list applies equally to all crypto gambling.    Wink

No, 6 is a unique problem for ponzi games. A dice site operator playing against their own money does not affect the players.

I tried to explain this before.   The author of the code can leave a back door that allows them to game the system.  You have no idea what real code is running.   Just because you can prove the random number is the same for your given inputs, doesn't mean a back door can't be rigged into the code that allows the inputs to be know and tested ahead of time.  While it may not seem like a direct impact on the other players, it wouldn't be a fair system.  The impact could be the house wouldn't be able to allow as big of bets.   (Indirectly that would probably save people coins.)

I actually checked a few dice sites and the proof is mostly just a bunch have hand waving on some sites.   Others that showed the process and back and fourth between the client and sever only allowed one to verify the final result.   If you don't have a wire capture of someone using a backdoor, the end result could look identical.   

People using their own gaming systems is a problem.   That is why you have to have trust with the person.    Just because you naively believe it is safe doesn't mean it is.    There are also many, simpler ways to game the system.  I just don't seen any difference, in both cases it is wrong to allow insiders to play.
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January 18, 2015, 09:27:25 PM
 #89

I think this site already follow all the rules!!!

[link removed]

Even it have 3 different kins of ponzi: list, pyramid, futures

Without explaining how it accomplishes all the rules (especially #6: the owner should not play himself), then this is advertising.

An economy based on endless growth is unsustainable.
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January 18, 2015, 09:35:32 PM
 #90

I don't think you can.  Just like dice sites can't guarantee they wont steal investors money, e.g. Just-Dice, the same issue applies to ponzi's.

I'd normally say too bad, but I think many users are sick of all the ponzi threads.
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January 18, 2015, 10:08:46 PM
 #91

if you can make sure that the operator doesnt run w. your bitcoins and some how use a legit third party to hold all the funds, then i guess.
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January 18, 2015, 10:36:01 PM
 #92

I don't think you can.  Just like dice sites can't guarantee they wont steal investors money, e.g. Just-Dice, the same issue applies to ponzi's.

I'd normally say too bad, but I think many users are sick of all the ponzi threads.

There have been valid reasons against Ponzi schemes presented here, yours isn't one of them.   You don't have to read the threads.   There are tons of threads most people don't read or care about.  That is a forum.   

If people want to have a separate category for Ponzi type games I don't see how that would be an issue.   However it doesn't solve the problems of making the games provably fair.   
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January 18, 2015, 10:55:16 PM
 #93

i dont think there is no way making a provably fair ponzi..
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January 18, 2015, 11:33:20 PM
 #94

you might as well call it provably fair scam game. it just doesnt make any sense.
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January 18, 2015, 11:57:37 PM
 #95

Even if a new ponzi pops up with a name ScamPonzi with a motto "you have been warned" and a single rule such as "send coin, I will double it or steal it, you never know" there will be people sending coins.

That is why most of them are obvious scams, not even pretending to be honest, or giving a shit, after all what would they loose? Those are like people who feel OK to keep the dollar bill fallen from the back pocket of a person walking three steps in front and don't feel their conscience compromised a bit.

Lesson learned after I lost 0.142 btc on ponzi, site down 5 minutes after my btc is received there, for 2 days long, then site started to work again and a few hours later round stopped, while in 3rd day, including 2 days site down, on a round supposed to last 14 days, stopped by the owner on the grounds of no more activity...Smiley
Basicly he called me and others stupid and yes it was a stupidity, played for fun and not only there was no win but also no fun at all.

Ponzi games are pointless, even in the best case that you win, it will be at the expense of another. And most of the time you out yourself at the mercy of a pathetic ponzi owner.

Dice games may be better for fairness, but only for a few rolls and not fun at all, it feeds the greed more than the fun and we all know where greed leads.

I would rather bet on a sports game on a legit betting site than throw money in a ponzi even when it is set up by a friend of mine that I know I can trust. I made a mistake once but I realized I would rather not endorse stealing from Peter to pay Paul any more.

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January 19, 2015, 12:02:07 AM
 #96

Even if a new ponzi pops up with a name ScamPonzi with a motto "you have been warned" and a single rule such as "send coin, I will double it or steal it, you never know" there will be people sending coins.

That is why most of them are obvious scams, not even pretending to be honest, or giving a shit, after all what would they loose? Those are like people who feel OK to keep the dollar bill fallen from the back pocket of a person walking three steps in front and don't feel their conscience compromised a bit.

Lesson learned after I lost 0.142 btc on ponzi, site down 5 minutes after my btc is received there, for 2 days long, then site started to work again and a few hours later round stopped, while in 3rd day, including 2 days site down, on a round supposed to last 14 days, stopped by the owner on the grounds of no more activity...Smiley
Basicly he called me and others stupid and yes it was a stupidity, played for fun and not only there was no win but also no fun at all.

Ponzi games are pointless, even in the best case that you win, it will be at the expense of another. And most of the time you out yourself at the mercy of a pathetic ponzi owner.

Dice games may be better for fairness, but only for a few rolls and not fun at all, it feeds the greed more than the fun and we all know where greed leads.

I would rather bet on a sports game on a legit betting site than throw money in a ponzi even when it is set up by a friend of mine that I know I can trust. I made a mistake once but I realized I would rather not endorse stealing from Peter to pay Paul any more.



good for not investing again in ponzis and yes its better to gamble the money somewhere else rather than investing it to ponzis.
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January 19, 2015, 06:26:40 AM
 #97

...
Ponzi games are pointless, even in the best case that you win, it will be at the expense of another. And most of the time you out yourself at the mercy of a pathetic ponzi owner.
...


All gambling gains come at the expense of another.  Where do you think the gains come form?   They come for other's losses.   
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January 19, 2015, 06:49:55 AM
 #98

...
Ponzi games are pointless, even in the best case that you win, it will be at the expense of another. And most of the time you out yourself at the mercy of a pathetic ponzi owner.
...


All gambling gains come at the expense of another.  Where do you think the gains come form?   They come for other's losses.   

You are correct. This is the reason I do not like all other gambling games either, when the amounts are at serious levels. If played moderately there is fun, otherwise there is serious win or loss. Serious win will be at the expense of another and some people may be OK with that but I am not. Gambling is a big lure taking advantage of human weaknesses, bad traits and emotional gaps and such a player' free will is not quite there for me.

Anyway, I am not perfect of course but gambling is not a decent act anyway.
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January 19, 2015, 07:00:39 AM
 #99

...
Ponzi games are pointless, even in the best case that you win, it will be at the expense of another. And most of the time you out yourself at the mercy of a pathetic ponzi owner.
...


All gambling gains come at the expense of another.  Where do you think the gains come form?   They come for other's losses.  

You are correct. This is the reason I do not like all other gambling games either, when the amounts are at serious levels. If played moderately there is fun, otherwise there is serious win or loss. Serious win will be at the expense of another and some people may be OK with that but I am not. Gambling is a big lure taking advantage of human weaknesses, bad traits and emotional gaps and such a player' free will is not quite there for me.

Anyway, I am not perfect of course but gambling is not a decent act anyway.

That is exactly why I don't see any difference between a "Ponzi" style game and a dice game.   Clearly many don't feel the same way.  

I've actually become a little fearful the more I've thought about provably fair.   At this point I think provably fair is a false security blanket.   Doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted but it isn't enough.   The weakest link is always the humans involved with the gaming site.  
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January 19, 2015, 08:03:51 AM
 #100

NO, it is not gamble or investment, you can't create. Ponzi's are not provably fair.
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