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Author Topic: Bitcoinica MtGox account compromised  (Read 145820 times)
defxor
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July 18, 2012, 06:32:44 PM
 #601

- Tihan was fired, and no longer acting on behalf of Bitcoinica LP.

Who fired Tihan??

I'd assume the investment fund that he represented.

Correct.

According to posts by those two persons themselves, [at least] two persons knew the LastPass password and, more crucially, that the password was insecure (i.e, not randomly generated but a known string).

One of those persons was Tihan - who selected it, the other Zhou - who knew where it came from. It will be interesting to hear, whenever that might be, where all the USD went - something MtGox seem to have information on according to Mark's posts.

(And I'm sure lots of people here would be interested in seeing the IP address from the X-Originating-IP field in the hotmail-sent "Your LastPas pasword is" mail quoted earlier by Zhou)

As to the source code release itself, which is the reason why the known string became useable for both an inside as well as an outside intrusion - the latter much more implausible, I believe the question marks as to its origin still haven't been cleared.

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July 18, 2012, 07:03:00 PM
 #602

How would you seize Bitcoinica's assets, at least the BTC, without giving whoever controls the private keys the opportunity to transfer the funds to safety?

Really easy. Choose a registered professional. Hold him legally responsible. Win.

That's assuming the registered professional you choose holds the private keys, and is the only one with the keys.

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July 18, 2012, 07:19:37 PM
 #603

Zhou or Tihan? Hmm, one of them just got fired. Zhou is unlikely a suspect imo. If I was a Bitcoinica team member and I knew I was innocent, I would do my own investigation and take an extra careful look at Tihans involvement. I'd really hate it if I was screwed over and now held accountable for someone's heist.

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July 18, 2012, 07:25:23 PM
 #604

A lots of people asked that they continue refunds with what is left.  I am mostly against it, so far a lot of people have had 100% a lot have had more back that they had, some false claim were paid out, all of this was paid with some of my money.

It was found most all who has large account have not been paid their 50% even if their claim was marked accurate.
(we are a group of ~15 who had rather big account and got 0% back)

The large account that went paid 100% were a small select group with large account, I'd guess friend.

Having Patrick quit while he has done most of the refund work and may be the only one with access to the information about the process status is what sadden me the most.

The timing of the hack to the release of the code make it very likely that the hacker is well known.  It is most certainly someone who had prior knowledge of the vulnerability and after figuring out the code was out in public, decided to cash in.
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July 18, 2012, 09:51:57 PM
 #605


No. A judicial overseer would first secure all assets. That might mean immediately converting all BTC to $ and putting it into a safe bank. Since the appointed overseer can be held responsible for some losses accrued during his reign, you can bet he will play it safe.

He might incur losses due to the underlying BTC price rising, and people would cry foul even more than over open positions now, but at least there would be some assets to distribute (eventually). I am confident even lawyers can't take a bigger cut than criminals do now.

Pretty much this.  Although liquidation/administration/receivership (which is the most appropriate depends on whether there are any secured creditors and whether it's deemed possible for the company to trade out of trouble) is a legal process, it has nothing to do with law enforcement or with litigation against the principals.

A liquidator (usually an accountant unless a company is being wound up by court order) takes control of all assets and liquidates them for the benefit of creditors.  They are then distributed according to a process mandated by law (there's a specific order in which claims must be paid).  The liquidator (or receiver/administrator) is legally liable in the same way that the executor of a will is liable.  A simple liquidation takes about 6 months.  It takes much longer if any assets have been hidden or if any payments have been wrongly made during the look-back period as the liquidator is obliged by law to recover those assets/reverse those payments for the benefit of all creditors.

While we do know that there's a shortfall of funds, we do not know if users are the only creditors and we do not know whether user funds are the only assets.  If Bitcoinica LP owns the Bitcoinica.com domain and the IP (which is what Zhou says he sold), then a liquidator is obliged to attempt to sell those assets (which admittedly would not be worth much now).

I cannot stress how much you need advice from a NZ accountant or lawyer, Amir. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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July 18, 2012, 10:47:21 PM
 #606

Having Patrick quit while he has done most of the refund work and may be the only one with access to the information about the process status is what sadden me the most.

Real security professionals go about their work mostly unnoticed if they do everything right.

Be sceptical about anyone making a lot of noise about their level of expertise, it smells of immaturity,and more often than not boils down to not being what they want everyone to believe they are.

Taking over a business as Bitcoinica means that if you're a security professional and wants to become the new administrator and/or owner of said business, at minimum you do the following:

* Review the source code
* Check the hosting situation esp. in regards to security and redundancy.
* Make sure all funds are safe, use two factor identification and/or cold storage for bitcoins, with multiple encrypted backups.
* Check the backup routines, and that they're satisfactorily, a backups of the live system should be done very often, at least daily, but for a site like Bitcoinica, it should perhaps be constantly mirrored to a safe server at the very least, heck if you're a sysadmin, you can even hack a bash script using mysqldump,tar,gpg and mutt to mail encrypted backups to admins. It takes 30 minutes or less to fix for the experienced admin.
* Make sure that all passwords are handled properly (change all of them, just to be sure.)
* Make sure password management is handled with an iron grip. Better to have some incovenience than to lose funds.
* Dont' use mailing lists for resets of passwords..
* Use a dedicated secure computer to access all important information.
* Use encrypted email when communication with other team members, this can easily be achived with many e-mail programs using PGP today.
* Make a set of security policies that everybody has to follow. For instance, strong encryption and good passwords for residential wifi's, restrict login to secure services to certain ip's and so on and so forth.

If you don't have the time or the resources to secure everything properly, then fuckups will happen. And in this case a real clusterfuckup happened.

Some of the points above, while not being an exhaustive list, is some of the things that a security professional should think of. Obviously from following the Bitcoinica debacle, a lot of the points above which requires no more than common sense to follow (ie. backup routines) has been breached.

I won't attack Zouthong specifically, and while I can't rule out that he's done anything wrong (everybody involved is a suspect at this point), a 17 year old doing no backups wouldn't make the headlines, but a company priding themselves with being security experts, and yet not following many of the rules above, which doesn't even require you to be a security professional, that's laughable.

Sorry to say this, but it's a complete joke.

Now, that the clowns have been revealed, the Circus need not shut down, but if the clows takes of their gowns and masks, starts talking, thinking, and flips over backwards to fix this clusterfuck, then we may have a resolution. Not doing anything about the situation at all, and even walking away, shows what kind of material those individuals are made of.

Intersango, should at this point only receive the minimal amount of attention from the bitcoin consultancy, while the Bitcoinica case should get their full attention. A plan could even be to make promises to current customers that have lost funds that they will be paid back from the profit of the continued operation of Bitcoinica, that is if the Bitcoin Consultancy still have the stomachs and nerves to continue to run Bitcoinica.

We all remember the mtGox hack, where shortly after Bitcoin Consultancy offered their services to Mark, and called Mark's exchange a complety incompetent one man show. NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE BITCOIN CONSULTANCY DUDES TO STAND UP AND SHOW THAT THEY HAVE A SPINE, AND SORT OUT THIS CLUSTERFUCK!!!

It's easy to see the faults in others, but hard to see one's own faults, and especially hard to face them when the shit hits the fan. As for the personal well beings of individuals of the Intersango team, most community members are uninterested, this is the responsibility of the individual team members of BC to get enough sun, sleep enough, eat their vitamins and food. The community is suffering, and you have a part of it, unfair or not, this is reality and have to be dealt with.

I'm sure that most people's memory is shortlived, and if you can sort out this mess in a civil manner, I'm sure many community members will be mostly grateful. Now there's even been a price increase for bitcoins, so selling those slowly off could even make for more USD to be reimbursed, and I'm sure that a lot of former members would be happy to get back their funds, in any form, even if it was the USD equvivalent of the bitcoin value when Bitcoinica closed down.

So my advise now:

1. Secure all funds, cold storage for coins, and put two factor identification on all accounts where USD is stored. Change all passwords, and let a trusted lawyer set the master password for Keepass, LastPass or whatever password management you chose.

2. Take some days off, or even a week. Announce to the community when you will be back, then leave everything that has to do with bitcoin and computes for a few days, go into nature, relax, feel the sun on your skin.

3. After the short hiatus, get back, take a deep breath, work with the lawyer (I'm sure no Bitcoinica ex-member would object to using a few bucks on a lawyer, if it means they could even get 50% or more of their funds back), ask for help from trusted community members if you needed to.

4. Work intensly on paying back all funds, let all other unnecesary leisure activites and work activities (writing articles, coding etc.) rest, and focus on the task at hand.

5. When the remaining funds have been distributed, either call it a day and go on a vacation for a month on a tropical island, or your nearest woods (whatever fits your budget).

6. Decide if you want to relaunch Bitcoinica, or forever call it a day.

THEN YOU WOULD GO OUT OF THIS MESS WITH HEADS HELD HIGH!!! Right now, it's more like a ship were all rats are jumping off, and a drunk captain is left manouvering it.

Yes, you fucked up majorly, but there's always another day. People talk as everything is lost, it is not. What really matters now is the attitude, honesty and integrity of the ones left on the ship, or which have already jumped ship, you could always climb back.

Try to put your personal EGOS, embarrassment, anger, hostility etc. to rest. Make sure everything related to payouts goes through a certified and trustworthy lawyer, as at this point, you're all suspects, even though there's no exact evidence as to who's to blame.

Failure to do this will only hurt your reputation, and continued careers, in and out of bitcoin. You may even face criminal charges down the line and serve jail time for it.

I'm sure most people in the community don't wish anything bad on your persons, but they have a right to their funds, and that's something you should honour, and that's why they're angry. If people know this is being worked on, and that something happens, then they will be much less hostile.

Updating the bitcoinica.com site with some information about the recent incident and with a plan from here would be a good way to go. You could post daily, or at least weekly reports about the work done with repayments, and ex-customers could report on this forum what they have received.

On the opposite case, there's always the possibility that you are in fact criminals, and that the remaining funds + Intersango will be emptied very soon, and you're off to a remote island with fake passports and golddigger whores. If this is the case, I hope it feels good, that you sleep well at night, and that you have a good time. A lot of people do not have a good time at this point.

Disclaimer: I had 0 funds in Bitcoinica and I have 0 funds on Intersango, but it's uneasing to see the community being hit by this, and I hope it will be sorted out. Even having 50% back is better than a 100% loss!!!

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July 18, 2012, 11:05:07 PM
 #607

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A plan could even be to make promises to current customers that have lost funds that they will be paid back from the profit of the continued operation of Bitcoinica, that is if the Bitcoin Consultancy still have the stomachs and nerves to continue to run Bitcoinica.

They cannot legally do this unless it's under the oversight of an administrator.  It is a serious offence to continue trading while insolvent unless it has been determined by a liquidator that this is the best option, an administrator is appointed, and it is agreed to by creditors. When an administrator is appointed, they pretty much oversee the running of the company and financial transactions must be approved by them - it's hard to see how that would even be workable given the amount of transactions a service like Bitcoinica has daily.  Bitcoinica LP also has a limited partner which may wish to dissolve the partnership, complicating things even more.

It is also not known who actually owns the Bitcoinica domain and IP.  If it is not Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd, then they cannot use the domain or the IP without the permission of the owner.  

The LP makes this a bit more complicated.  If there was only Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd involved then you'd look at trying to put together a rescue package in exchange for equity and trade out (a 30% shortfall isn't all that much) - there are investors who look for exactly these kinds of situations.  The problem is that Bitcoinica has already been "rescued" and we don't know what the terms of that rescue were or how much it would cost a new investor to buy out the limited partners and cover the shortfall.  An administrator or liquidator is bound to consider any such offers, so I guess one thing which users could do for their own benefit is use their networks to seek out investors who might be willing to rescue the company.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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July 18, 2012, 11:13:54 PM
 #608

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A plan could even be to make promises to current customers that have lost funds that they will be paid back from the profit of the continued operation of Bitcoinica, that is if the Bitcoin Consultancy still have the stomachs and nerves to continue to run Bitcoinica.

They cannot legally do this unless it's under the oversight of an administrator.  It is a serious offence to continue trading while insolvent unless it has been determined by a liquidator that this is the best option, an administrator is appointed, and it is agreed to by creditors. When an administrator is appointed, they pretty much oversee the running of the company and financial transactions must be approved by them - it's hard to see how that would even be workable given the amount of transactions a service like Bitcoinica has daily.  Bitcoinica LP also has a limited partner which may wish to dissolve the partnership, complicating things even more.

It is also not known who actually owns the Bitcoinica domain and IP.  If it is not Bitcoinica Consultancy Ltd, then they cannot use the domain or the IP without the permission of the owner. 

You have some good points, but then I have a question:

Was Bitcoinica run legally from the very start? I highly doubt so, and have anyone been charged with it ? Not that I know, so even though you're probably 100% correct from a legal standpoint about what you're saying, and it probably makes sense as well, it doesn't mean that if BC did relaunch Bitcoinica, even under another domain name that anything would happen to them. I highly doubt they would, but given the turn of events lately, nothing would surprise me at this point. Who would've tought that the master password for all passwords was the mtGox API key ?

But, in essence, my final point is that we should not be so problem minded. There's a shitload of problems to handle, but we need to see it as challenges, and not as problems. If we get overwhelmed by problems, then we never get to do any real work.

In that light, I think my proposal is a good one, at least some elements of it. Right now we don't know what happens at all.

If everyone in the bitcoin community were to adhere to all laws and regulations when starting a service, not much would've been started I would think. At the mo, BC seems shocked and unable to move.
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July 18, 2012, 11:44:38 PM
 #609


Was Bitcoinica run legally from the very start? I highly doubt so, and have anyone been charged with it ? Not that I know, so even though you're probably 100% correct from a legal standpoint about what you're saying, and it probably makes sense as well, it doesn't mean that if BC did relaunch Bitcoinica, even under another domain name that anything would happen to them. I highly doubt they would, but given the turn of events lately, nothing would surprise me at this point. Who would've tought that the master password for all passwords was the mtGox API key ?

But, in essence, my final point is that we should not be so problem minded. There's a shitload of problems to handle, but we need to see it as challenges, and not as problems. If we get overwhelmed by problems, then we never get to do any real work.

In that light, I think my proposal is a good one, at least some elements of it. Right now we don't know what happens at all.

If everyone in the bitcoin community were to adhere to all laws and regulations when starting a service, not much would've been started I would think. At the mo, BC seems shocked and unable to move.

Like so many other things, everything's fine until someone gets hurt.  Whatever legal inadequacies there may have been regarding the operation of Bitcoinica at various points could likely have been easily remedied up until this shitstorm happened.  Technical breaches are rarely punished to any meaningful extent until they cause harm to shareholders, creditors, users etc.  Even at that point, the penalties tend to be administrative rather than criminal in the majority of cases because most businesses do not fail because of criminal activity (the reason for the failure of the business is one of the things examined in insolvency proceedings).  Directors may be deemed personally liable under certain circumstances and their personal assets attached.  The primary concern is making whole (or as near to whole as possible) those who have been damaged by incompetence or reckless conduct. Directors can also be banned from participating in the management of other companies (this rarely happens unless outright fraud has been involved).

All of us - and I suspect Amir himself - have incomplete information.  It's simply not possible to determine the best course of action with incomplete information.  As I said elsewhere, a 30% shortfall is not that much.  In many cases it would be possible for an otherwise viable business to solve the problem with outside investment.  In this instance, there are factors which make the business less attractive to outside investors, though - not the least of which is the possibility of the limited partner/s taking legal action against the general partner.

The reason I keep urging Amir to get sound legal advice from a NZ practitioner is that this situation really can get worse if Bitcoinica Consultancy makes a wrong move at this point and that could harm the interests of users as well as the principals.  There is rarely only one option available, but Amir needs to know which options are realistic, legal and which ones are just optimistic suggestions from strangers on the internet.  that way, he can come back and say "these are our options guys and we've decided to do X".

Although I do think that the claims process should have been handled by an accountant following the Rackspace intrusion, an attempt was made to find out who was owed money and to make provision for paying them.  That's certainly something which will be taken into account if the company ends up in liquidation or under administration.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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July 19, 2012, 08:58:43 AM
 #610

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On the opposite case, there's always the possibility that you are in fact criminals, and that the remaining funds + Intersango will be emptied very soon, and you're off to a remote island with fake passports and golddigger whores. If this is the case, I hope it feels good, that you sleep well at night, and that you have a good time. A lot of people do not have a good time at this point.

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Now let's sing the Bitcoinica Anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPL7nN99jno
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July 19, 2012, 09:34:35 AM
 #611

why didnt you just move it to another account?
why didnt you revoked all api access? - i see no need for it as bitcoinica is OFFLINE
This right here.

Basically bitcoinica was a ponzi of sorts, now they have just plain run off with your money.

The lack of security is so vast the only explanation is that one, more or all of the operators just stole everything while using "hacks" as an excuse.


I would suggest filing police reports against everyone involved whose name is known. Bank fraud is bank fraud and with USD involved the police should AT LEAST inconvenience them with a few questions.

Even if it was a hack there might be such a thing as criminal negligence which could also give them trouble.

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July 19, 2012, 09:49:17 AM
 #612

If you look at the transaction history you'll see that there's one incoming tx for each outgoing payout. The address never held more at once than what was being processed. It looks like some kind of public ledger for their BTC payouts. It also shows that the last payout was performed today. The question is if these are real payouts, or if they're just trying to make the impression that they're still processing claims. Anyhow, I beg you to please, please turn off your random post generator, Phinnaeus. It's all just white noise.
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July 19, 2012, 04:14:17 PM
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On the opposite case, there's always the possibility that you are in fact criminals, and that the remaining funds + Intersango will be emptied very soon, and you're off to a remote island with fake passports and golddigger whores. If this is the case, I hope it feels good, that you sleep well at night, and that you have a good time. A lot of people do not have a good time at this point.

Indeed, there is still the possibility of this being a fraud.

But now, after the disclosure of a lot of the internal email traffic between end of April and start of June, this hypothesis looks even more unlikely. The visible actors just aren't acting as someone pulling off a heist. Rather, they act like people (first) trying to run a business, which was formerly highly profitable and just recently runs slightly into a loss.

Later, after the first hack, from all evidence available, those people tried to repair the situation, but run into a lot of internal differences and arguments finding out how to do it properly. Moreover, judging from the documents, there was an increasing internal tension between the two (obvious) groups
  • Tihan (and Zhou Tong) wanted to proceed with the deal and wanted the 3 Bitcoin Consultancy people to take over as planned, and to have them handle the cleanup and payout and take on all responsibility.
  • The Bitcoin Consultancy people wanted to back out from this deal, which, after the first hack, wasn't beneficial to their business in any way. Especially Donald and Patrick insisted on the deal not being finished completely, leaving a chance to reverse it an get out.

These are people doing business and trying to protect their own stakes, not a group of people robbing a bank.
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July 19, 2012, 04:35:40 PM
 #614


Later, after the first hack, from all evidence available, those people tried to repair the situation, but run into a lot of internal differences and arguments finding out how to do it properly. Moreover, judging from the documents, there was an increasing internal tension between the two (obvious) groups
  • Tihan (and Zhou Tong) wanted to proceed with the deal and wanted the 3 Bitcoin Consultancy people to take over as planned, and to have them handle the cleanup and payout and take on all responsibility.
  • The Bitcoin Consultancy people wanted to back out from this deal, which, after the first hack, wasn't beneficial to their business in any way. Especially Donald and Patrick insisted on the deal not being finished completely, leaving a chance to reverse it an get out.

These are people doing business and trying to protect their own stakes, not a group of people robbing a bank.

I just want to clarify this a bit.  The discussion where between Tihan and Zhou about the $40,000 shortfall having blown out to almost $90,000 refers to the shortfall created by the Linode hack.  The tension arises after the Rackspace hack (Bitcoinica Consultancy wrongly assuming that because some of the paperwork was incomplete they might not be regarded as general partners at the date the hack occurred and therefore might not have liability).  It's true that the Rackspace clusterfuck made Bitcoinica a less attractive proposition for them but, just as importantly, if they'd been able to back out of the deal they then Wendon/Wengon would not have shares in Intersango.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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July 19, 2012, 04:36:07 PM
 #615

Judging from the disclosed internal documents, its worth to note some details about the payout process.

Seemingly, Patrick was in favour of handling all claims evenly, after sorting out the obviously fraudulent ones. To the contrary, Tihan insisted to handle some known and personally trusted customers immediately. He was even ready to do so from his own personal money, assumed that the Bitcoin Consultancy guys where reluctant towards any preferred treatment of any customer.

This resulted in a compromise, which they labled the "hybid approach". The claims would be partitioned into 3 groups. The "preferred and trusted customers" group (about 5%) would get a guaranted 100% payout. The majority of claims would be processed by good faith and evenly, forcing them to take a (small and evenly distributed) loss, while the 3rd groop, the fraudulent and unprovable ones, would get nothing.

Judging from the documents, Tihan then insisted on not making this approach public, and especially not disclosing the existance of that preferred group. He did this drawing from good business practice. His argument was (assumed I judge the quoted responses correct): if we do it this way, everyone will be happy. If we disclose it, no one will win. Also judging from a response of Tihan, Donald or Patrick seemed to oppose, so there was the other proposal to do that trusted payout quickly and than allow the Bitcoin Consultancy guys to conduct the rest of the process in a fully transparent manner.

Durnig all these arguments, basically Amir din't care much for the fine points of that controversy and focussed on the doing. Also, he was in favour of just starting to pay out. Seemingly Tihan noticed that and supported that attitude, thus putting the direct opponents (Patrick and Donald) under pressure. At some pont, Donald then send a rather harsh message to Amir, telling him to stop just acting this way and thus to weaken their own position. Asside from that, the 3 Bitcoin Consultancy guys seem to have acted in accordance.

While filling in some additional details, the disclosed documents aren't complete, and especially don't cover the time since mid of June.
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July 19, 2012, 04:47:52 PM
 #616

All makes total sense to me; the sister did for the butler because he knew about the secret illegitimate child, and she made sure the station master knew exactly what time he saw her at.

One thing puzzles me: if BC were brought in to deal with a known level of lax security, was the site running purely on hope before that? And if security was generally poor, what are the chances of a keylogger or similar trojan being out there from the start?

Man. And I thought Eastenders was stressful to watch.

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July 19, 2012, 04:56:49 PM
 #617

The tension arises after the Rackspace hack (Bitcoinica Consultancy wrongly assuming that because some of the paperwork was incomplete they might not be regarded as general partners at the date the hack occurred and therefore might not have liability).
Thats an interesting and challenging question, at least for us as bystanders and/or customers of Bitcoinica, possibly bearing the losses :-/

Business is often comprised of "acting to the rules" while at the same time a lot is going on "in between the lines".
Often, some view, which, legally and by the rules is not 100% correc, is announced and repreated with great vehemence, thus putting the oposing side under pressure. It is difficult to judge the actual balance of powers from the outside. Also the personalities of the people involved do play some role (and we, as bystanders, don't know anyone of those actors in person).

Who is in the stronger position? Who was at the end of May, which seems to be the period where the further route of events basically was determined? Personally, from his insiting on the legal situation and also his urging to proceed with the payouts, it looks that Tihan was in the slightly weaker position (but not much weaker).

Btw, we don't have the slightest idea about what the situation is currently. Tihan seems to have been put out of control and doesn't represent the fund anymore (correct?). But what's with Donald, Patrick and Amir? do they still cooperate and work together? Or is everyone acting alone and talking to his lawyer??


It's true that the Rackspace clusterfuck made Bitcoinica a less attractive proposition for them but, just as importantly, if they'd been able to back out of the deal they then Wendon/Wengon would not have shares in Intersango.

Good point.
Worth to note that the deal was to exchange Intersango shares for Bitconica holdings plus becoming Bitcoinica G.P. and thus operating the site.
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July 19, 2012, 05:02:30 PM
 #618

Update 19th July: payments are still stuck at 38%. Considering that those are 50% payouts, that means a good 76% of the claims. That's not 76% of claimants, but 76% of the total funds.

However given that nobody is doing anything, I've been talking with some of the people with large claims. They've proposed helping take over the process with me. I suppose we need to get written consent that Bitcoinica Consultancy doesn't exist or that if it does that the members resign. This allows Bitcoinica LP to take over and hand the payouts process to us. Technically Bitcoinica LP owns the assets.

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repentance: what do you mean get a lawyer? I don't have the ability to do that. I have no savings you know. I don't really take a wage (so there's more money for projects). Many of the Bitcoin developers are not in this for money... Bitcoin is something really special, interesting and quite new.
Ichthyo
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July 19, 2012, 05:04:35 PM
 #619

All makes total sense to me; the sister did for the butler because he knew about the secret illegitimate child, and she made sure the station master knew exactly what time he saw her at.

This is a Movie or Novel plot.

I'd be reluctant to judge real world proceedings as if it was a Hollywood movie.
Because, in those fiction stuff, there allways good and bad persons, and the happenings are thrilling and interesting. Yet all the subleties and gray shades of human nature are missing.

Here we've got 5 real world people engaged into a difficult situation and partially putting their monetary foundation at stake.

In good movies, you happen to know and feel whats going on right from the start. Thats part of the joy of watching.
In real live, you rarely know what's going on and each judgment is fuzzy.
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July 19, 2012, 05:14:23 PM
 #620

However given that nobody is doing anything, I've been talking with some of the people with large claims. They've proposed helping take over the process with me. I suppose we need to get written consent that Bitcoinica Consultancy doesn't exist or that if it does that the members resign. This allows Bitcoinica LP to take over and hand the payouts process to us. Technically Bitcoinica LP owns the assets.

Whold that mean that the legal and business questions, i.e. the question who was responsible for what, would be separated from the payout process? Thus, that "payout team" would get a clearly defined mission, while the rest will be left to the lawyers to find out? If that was the case, this sounds like a good plan.
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