BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)

[rikkie]

I understand and agree but why are they hiding the warrant with the patriot act? We can't even find out what they were really searching for! Even the family can't find out what they were looking for. Very odd.

That is one of the "features" (for a lack of a better term) of the patriot act. Everything is kept out of the public's view. I wouldn't be surprised if Burt and/or his attorney knows the contents of what they were looking for and possibly the basis for the warrant (this might not even be true - I am not that familiar with the law). I would say however if/when the case is resolved outside of court that a stipulation be that he agrees not to speak publicly about the case.

His wife said on the video on her website that they took over 700 BTC and $30,000 in cash from their home. I am somewhat surprised that he didn't have the BTC better protected.

Someone postulated, the reason Burt spent two 'extra' days in fed detention was to force him to handover his private keys.  When they snatched all of his electronic recording devices they likely found the wallet(s) and demanded the keys.  

This is possible. But I don't think it was a good idea for him to give them up. It only would have given the government evidence against him, and he could have filed a writ of habeas corpus to get released, or at least a fair bail hearing.

As for that stipulation, why would you ask Burt to stipulate to that?   Speaking about what he endured should be required learning for everyone in the btc world, especially those trading with localbitcoins.

I would not ask him to stipulate that. The government would. They probably would make that stipulate that so that heads would not roll (eg be held accountable) as a result of the case. The way that her wife painted the situation (which I would say it probably somewhat biased - I cannot say with any amount of certainty how accurate it is), a lot of people in various branches of the government did things they probably shouldn't have done, some may even argue that would warrant jail time.

If we as the CC universe don't take some measures to end this type of abuse it will spread to other countries.  I would not be surprised if Germany isn't telling Greece to consider the American law that confiscates bitcoins from anyone not properly licensed to sell them.  

What is "CC"?

[1714897428]

1714897428

[nachoig]

$30,000 in cash from their home

30k$ at their own home? Wife is a lawyer/paralegal? This is getting interesting.

Anyone care to speculate what would be the use of 30k$ to be kept at home? AFAIK nobody in the family was running a cash-based small business. I know people occasionally keeping much more than that at home, but they are in the cash-intensive business not involving Bitcoins.

Edit: E.g. I used to know a woman real estate agent who used to keep way over 100k$ in small bills very close to herself at all times. Her specialty was buying highly-appreciated (by value) but decrepit (by condition) real estate from alcoholics and other addicts.

What would be the business model requiring to keep 30k$ in cash at home? I don't care if legal or illegal. Please give your guesses.

Edit2: I also remember CFO of some rather large company keeping that amount of cash on hand at all times when his company was involved in lawsuits (not him personally) and the company used to employ many blue-collar workers living paycheck-to-paycheck (or paypacket-to-paypacket).

The amount of bitcoins is more impressive: equivalent to $ 200,000 at current price. So, this doesn't surprise me. Also, you should consider Bitcoin is cash too (this affirmation is in the whitepaper).

What drives my attention is because if you hold a lot of cash, they tell you're criminal, even without a proof. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165025/Its-just-peanuts-Why-South-African-billionaire-denies-criminal-activity-boarding-plane-700-000-cash.html

[2112]

There are a number of legit things that would have caused them to have that kind of cash in their home. Primarily it could be for bitcoin trading. They also apparently have a lot of money so it could be the equivalent of their "emergency" fund.

His wife said on her website that one of her client's (work) sites were searched which caused the client to fire her company which cost her company millions of dollars. If they have millions of dollars to lose then they probably have enormous amounts of money. If your company makes millions of dollars then $30k really doesn't sound like that much.

I do think that they probably do have the resources to make heads roll, assuming that Burt really was not involved in anything that was actually illegal (meaning he was not involved in SR2, or any other dark market site at all). It appears that a number of people make mistakes throughout the case, most interestingly the magistrate who apparently authorized search warrants without probable cause to seize attorney-client privileged information, and then the proper procedures were not followed when such information was taken

I kinda don't mind "legit" or "illegit". I'm interested in "sane". I can fully understand the grey market economy and life (all the way back to the plight of European Jews during WWII).

Keeping 30k$ at home with no obvious use or as an "emergency fund"? This just doesn't seem sane. Or it is a symptom of being disconnected and alienated from the extended family, neighbors, friends, etc.

Is there any more information about "wife's client's (work) sites that were searched"? I don't care about specifics, just the general business sector and the purpose of keeping funds in cash there.

Again, I'm not interested about legality or illegality. I'm more about the sanity and purpose of the lifestyle.
 

[2112]

The amount of bitcoins is more impressive: equivalent to $ 200,000 at current price. So, this doesn't surprise me. Also, you should consider Bitcoin is cash too (this affirmation is in the whitepaper).

I'm not about the current market value. I know families who have way more than that hanging on the walls in the open as painting which appreciated in value.

I'm trying to find a sane reason to keep this amount of cash at home in their circumstances. If  I can't find sane reasons I'll have to look for insane ones.

[rikkie]

There are a number of legit things that would have caused them to have that kind of cash in their home. Primarily it could be for bitcoin trading. They also apparently have a lot of money so it could be the equivalent of their "emergency" fund.

His wife said on her website that one of her client's (work) sites were searched which caused the client to fire her company which cost her company millions of dollars. If they have millions of dollars to lose then they probably have enormous amounts of money. If your company makes millions of dollars then $30k really doesn't sound like that much.

I do think that they probably do have the resources to make heads roll, assuming that Burt really was not involved in anything that was actually illegal (meaning he was not involved in SR2, or any other dark market site at all). It appears that a number of people make mistakes throughout the case, most interestingly the magistrate who apparently authorized search warrants without probable cause to seize attorney-client privileged information, and then the proper procedures were not followed when such information was taken

I kinda don't mind "legit" or "illegit". I'm interested in "sane". I can fully understand the grey market economy and life (all the way back to plight of Jews during WWII).

Keeping 30k$ at home with no obvious use or as an "emergency fund"? This just doesn't seem sane. Or it is a symptom of being disconnected and alienated from the extended family, neighbors, friends, etc.

Is there any more information about "wife's client's (work) sites that were searched"? I don't care about specifics, just the general business sector and the purpose of keeping funds in cash there.

Again, I'm not interested about legality or illegality. I'm more about the sanity and purpose of the lifestyle.
 

Well I would say that would not be all that uncommon for people with a lot of money, as much as they apparently have, to keep such a large amount of cash at home.

A 'sane' reason to keep that much money at home would be for bitcoin trading purposes, as it would probably be a bit of a hassle to have to go to the bank every time burt wanted to buy or sell large amounts of bitcoin, plus the fact that making a lot of cash deposits and withdrawals out of a personal account (he wouldn't have a business account because he was only doing it as a 'hobby') is a good way to get your bank account closed.

I am not sure what exactly Burt's wife's company does, not what the client does. Both the businesses names were redacted (and the locations ) in a letter that she wrote and published in a different section on her site. I would say there is a good chance that it would be difficult/impossible to determine exactly what they do.

[QuestionAuthority]

There are a number of legit things that would have caused them to have that kind of cash in their home. Primarily it could be for bitcoin trading. They also apparently have a lot of money so it could be the equivalent of their "emergency" fund.

His wife said on her website that one of her client's (work) sites were searched which caused the client to fire her company which cost her company millions of dollars. If they have millions of dollars to lose then they probably have enormous amounts of money. If your company makes millions of dollars then $30k really doesn't sound like that much.

I do think that they probably do have the resources to make heads roll, assuming that Burt really was not involved in anything that was actually illegal (meaning he was not involved in SR2, or any other dark market site at all). It appears that a number of people make mistakes throughout the case, most interestingly the magistrate who apparently authorized search warrants without probable cause to seize attorney-client privileged information, and then the proper procedures were not followed when such information was taken

I kinda don't mind "legit" or "illegit". I'm interested in "sane". I can fully understand the grey market economy and life (all the way back to plight of Jews during WWII).

Keeping 30k$ at home with no obvious use or as an "emergency fund"? This just doesn't seem sane. Or it is a symptom of being disconnected and alienated from the extended family, neighbors, friends, etc.

Is there any more information about "wife's client's (work) sites that were searched"? I don't care about specifics, just the general business sector and the purpose of keeping funds in cash there.

Again, I'm not interested about legality or illegality. I'm more about the sanity and purpose of the lifestyle.
 

I don't think there ever will be enough information available to determine the sanity of their actions. The best we can hope for is to determine legality.

[2112]

Well I would say that would not be all that uncommon for people with a lot of money, as much as they apparently have, to keep such a large amount of cash at home.

A 'sane' reason to keep that much money at home would be for bitcoin trading purposes, as it would probably be a bit of a hassle to have to go to the bank every time burt wanted to buy or sell large amounts of bitcoin, plus the fact that making a lot of cash deposits and withdrawals out of a personal account (he wouldn't have a business account because he was only doing it as a 'hobby') is a good way to get your bank account closed.

I am not sure what exactly Burt's wife's company does, not what the client does. Both the businesses names were redacted (and the locations ) in a letter that she wrote and published in a different section on her site. I would say there is a good chance that it would be difficult/impossible to determine exactly what they do.

I understand not using banks. I grew up next to the wholesale fresh-cut flower market that was open 4am-7am, for the delivery at 8am-9am, which was also before the bank hours. I think I mostly understand people dealing "cash only" and having suitcases full of them. But never at home! This is dangerous, you paint a target sign for yourself and the family. And I'm not taking about "jackbooted government flunkeys", just a regular old-fashioned violent crime. Neither BurtW nor his wife seem like random naives or Bitcoin cultists/evangelists.

I don't think there ever will be enough information available to determine the sanity of their actions. The best we can hope for is to determine legality.

Well, legality is rather boring (to me) subject. The legal details could change in an instant. I'm interested in "what they were thinking", what kind of operation they were running.

[rikkie]

Well I would say that would not be all that uncommon for people with a lot of money, as much as they apparently have, to keep such a large amount of cash at home.

A 'sane' reason to keep that much money at home would be for bitcoin trading purposes, as it would probably be a bit of a hassle to have to go to the bank every time burt wanted to buy or sell large amounts of bitcoin, plus the fact that making a lot of cash deposits and withdrawals out of a personal account (he wouldn't have a business account because he was only doing it as a 'hobby') is a good way to get your bank account closed.

I am not sure what exactly Burt's wife's company does, not what the client does. Both the businesses names were redacted (and the locations ) in a letter that she wrote and published in a different section on her site. I would say there is a good chance that it would be difficult/impossible to determine exactly what they do.

I understand not using banks. I grew up next to the wholesale fresh-cut flower market that was open 4am-7am, for the delivery at 8am-9am, which was also before the bank hours. I think I mostly understand people dealing "cash only" and having suitcases full of them. But never at home! This is dangerous, you paint a target sign for yourself and the family. And I'm not taking about "jackbooted government flunkeys", just a regular old-fashioned violent crime. Neither BurtW nor his wife seem like random naives or Bitcoin cultists/evangelists.

Well you obviously want to be discrete about having that kind of cash in your home. I am sure they were not advertising the fact that they had cash.

His wife also mentioned her testimony against civil forfeiture laws that the money was taken from various parts of their house and from their safe, which implies that they had money hidden in multiple places, so if they were to get robbed then the criminal might find some small amount of money, take it and then leave.

[2112]

Well you obviously want to be discrete about having that kind of cash in your home. I am sure they were not advertising the fact that they had cash.

His wife also mentioned her testimony against civil forfeiture laws that the money was taken from various parts of their house and from their safe, which implies that they had money hidden in multiple places, so if they were to get robbed then the criminal might find some small amount of money, take it and then leave.

Without additional information my suspicion is on some marital problems or addiction or something other cause that I can't think right now. Money hidden in multiple places at home? With young/early school-age kids living in that home? It just doesn't compute. Kids at that age are so nosey that you cannot hide anything from them, if you raise them normally.

The fresh-flower market that I've mentioned before had one/two nearby jewelry/watch/buy-sell-gold kiosks. One day one of my elementary school classmates came to school with gold bars and started giving them away (I'll say 1/4M$ at the current prices). Some observant janitorial/custodian lady collected them back and alerted the administration. The real reason was alcoholism of the parents of that kid.

People and families handling cash/cash-equivalent-valuables have everyday rituals that assure their safety, mostly from common crime. I just can't seem to find such "safe-normalcy" I would expect in the BurtW's family or any other family that lives with and runs cash-intensive occupation.

[rikkie]

Well you obviously want to be discrete about having that kind of cash in your home. I am sure they were not advertising the fact that they had cash.

His wife also mentioned her testimony against civil forfeiture laws that the money was taken from various parts of their house and from their safe, which implies that they had money hidden in multiple places, so if they were to get robbed then the criminal might find some small amount of money, take it and then leave.

Without additional information my suspicion is on some marital problems or addiction or something other cause that I can't think right now. Money hidden in multiple places at home? With young/early school-age kids living in that home? It just doesn't compute. Kids at that age are so nosey that you cannot hide anything from them, if you raise them normally.

The fresh-flower market that I've mentioned before had one/two nearby jewelry/watch/buy-sell-gold kiosks. One day one of my elementary school classmates came to school with gold bars and started giving them away (I'll say 1/4M$ at the current prices). Some observant janitorial/custodian lady collected them back and alerted the administration. The real reason was alcoholism of the parents of that kid.

People and families handling cash/cash-equivalent-valuables have everyday rituals that assure their safety, mostly from common crime. I just can't seem to find such "safe-normalcy" I would expect in the BurtW's family or any other family that lives with and runs cash-intensive occupation.

It is possible that they have some problems. I really don't see the connection between having a lot of cash in their home and being addicted to alcohol/alcohol abuse. There isn't any real reason why someone couldn't just use their credit/debit card to buy alcohol in large quantities ect.

It would make more sense if they were addicted to some illegal drug(s), although it is not against the law to be addicted to illegal drugs (it is illegal to use/possess them though).

I still don't think it would be all that out of the ordinary for a family with millions of dollars to have $30k stashed in their house. I would assume that the hiding places were out of reach of children and possibly under lock and key

[H1N1]

Keeping money around is not at all odd, especially if you are of the political leaning that BurtW is, though I would have expected PM's instead. Though that seems to have fallen out of favor recently.

[edd]

Well you obviously want to be discrete about having that kind of cash in your home. I am sure they were not advertising the fact that they had cash.

His wife also mentioned her testimony against civil forfeiture laws that the money was taken from various parts of their house and from their safe, which implies that they had money hidden in multiple places, so if they were to get robbed then the criminal might find some small amount of money, take it and then leave.

Without additional information my suspicion is on some marital problems or addiction or something other cause that I can't think right now. Money hidden in multiple places at home? With young/early school-age kids living in that home? It just doesn't compute. Kids at that age are so nosey that you cannot hide anything from them, if you raise them normally.

The fresh-flower market that I've mentioned before had one/two nearby jewelry/watch/buy-sell-gold kiosks. One day one of my elementary school classmates came to school with gold bars and started giving them away (I'll say 1/4M$ at the current prices). Some observant janitorial/custodian lady collected them back and alerted the administration. The real reason was alcoholism of the parents of that kid.

People and families handling cash/cash-equivalent-valuables have everyday rituals that assure their safety, mostly from common crime. I just can't seem to find such "safe-normalcy" I would expect in the BurtW's family or any other family that lives with and runs cash-intensive occupation.

It is possible that they have some problems. I really don't see the connection between having a lot of cash in their home and being addicted to alcohol/alcohol abuse. There isn't any real reason why someone couldn't just use their credit/debit card to buy alcohol in large quantities ect.

It would make more sense if they were addicted to some illegal drug(s), although it is not against the law to be addicted to illegal drugs (it is illegal to use/possess them though).

I still don't think it would be all that out of the ordinary for a family with millions of dollars to have $30k stashed in their house. I would assume that the hiding places were out of reach of children and possibly under lock and key

Keeping $30,000+ in cash on hand when you're trading bitcoins makes sense to me. I only trade infrequently and even then almost always in amounts under $1000, but I've had plenty of traders tell me "If you know anyone looking to buy/sell $X,XXX or $XX,XXX worth of BTC, let me know." Someone who trades regularly and in large enough amounts to make it fairly profitable probably comes across such traders quite often. Withdrawing that much cash or travelling to a location outside the home seems much more likely to draw unwanted attention to me.

[rikkie]

Well you obviously want to be discrete about having that kind of cash in your home. I am sure they were not advertising the fact that they had cash.

His wife also mentioned her testimony against civil forfeiture laws that the money was taken from various parts of their house and from their safe, which implies that they had money hidden in multiple places, so if they were to get robbed then the criminal might find some small amount of money, take it and then leave.

Without additional information my suspicion is on some marital problems or addiction or something other cause that I can't think right now. Money hidden in multiple places at home? With young/early school-age kids living in that home? It just doesn't compute. Kids at that age are so nosey that you cannot hide anything from them, if you raise them normally.

The fresh-flower market that I've mentioned before had one/two nearby jewelry/watch/buy-sell-gold kiosks. One day one of my elementary school classmates came to school with gold bars and started giving them away (I'll say 1/4M$ at the current prices). Some observant janitorial/custodian lady collected them back and alerted the administration. The real reason was alcoholism of the parents of that kid.

People and families handling cash/cash-equivalent-valuables have everyday rituals that assure their safety, mostly from common crime. I just can't seem to find such "safe-normalcy" I would expect in the BurtW's family or any other family that lives with and runs cash-intensive occupation.

It is possible that they have some problems. I really don't see the connection between having a lot of cash in their home and being addicted to alcohol/alcohol abuse. There isn't any real reason why someone couldn't just use their credit/debit card to buy alcohol in large quantities ect.

It would make more sense if they were addicted to some illegal drug(s), although it is not against the law to be addicted to illegal drugs (it is illegal to use/possess them though).

I still don't think it would be all that out of the ordinary for a family with millions of dollars to have $30k stashed in their house. I would assume that the hiding places were out of reach of children and possibly under lock and key

Keeping $30,000+ in cash on hand when you're trading bitcoins makes sense to me. I only trade infrequently and even then almost always in amounts under $1000, but I've had plenty of traders tell me "If you know anyone looking to buy/sell $X,XXX or $XX,XXX worth of BTC, let me know." Someone who trades regularly and in large enough amounts to make it fairly profitable probably comes across such traders quite often. Withdrawing that much cash or travelling to a location outside the home seems much more likely to draw unwanted attention to me.

Right. There is really no reason for him to continue to deposit and withdraw money from the bank every time he trades if his intention is to trade with someone else at a better price in the near future.

[edd]

What is "CC"?

CryptoCurrency

Money hidden in multiple places at home?

When did she say it was "hidden?" I heard "from around the house."

In my house, at this moment, there's cash in my wallet, in my wife's purse, in the safe, in a drawer and probably a couple of other places I've forgotten about. The amounts are all under $1000 but I'm sure if I was targeted as Burt was it would all be confiscated and I'd describe it in the same way.

[jbreher]

How did the feds get the BTC? Do you have a separate secure password for each purpose? How do you ensure you don't forget one of them? We are told that the jackboots completely tore through their house. I might suspect a paper backup might have been found somewhere - just a hypothesis.

Yeah, $30K around the house sounds like a lot. However, in a world where even a former Treasury Secretary is seriously discussing the idea of Cyprus-like bailins, maybe it's a not such a crackpot idea.

[2112]

When did she say it was "hidden?" I heard "from around the house."

In my house, at this moment, there's cash in my wallet, in my wife's purse, in the safe, in a drawer and probably a couple of other places I've forgotten about. The amounts are all under $1000 but I'm sure if I was targeted as Burt was it would all be confiscated and I'd describe it in the same way.

There is a miscommunication going on in this thread.

I'm going to guess that most of the posters here don't remember the days when the delivery vans used to have "Driver doesn't cary cash" painted on them.

Again the interesting and unusual part isn't whether it is "legal" or "illegal" to keep that much cash at family residence with small kids. The question is: is it safe and sane? The people who really handle that cash on the daily basis treat it in a way similar to dangerous explosives. Because cash first of all attracts crime.

I'm thinking that maybe BurtW wasn't telling his wife everything, maybe he kept additional job for cover, maybe he tried to keep double and/or cooked books and gotten over his head in it?

Keeping $30,000+ in cash on hand when you're trading bitcoins makes sense to me.

At a family residence with wife and small kid? I think you are either unmarried/childless or homicidal/suicidal/infanticidal.

Edit: OK, one possible thing came to my mind. Maybe BurtW was sane, wore body armor when going Bitcoin trading, had a armored car with run-flat tires, and other accessories of the cash operator. But maybe he hired/cooperated with non-licensed body guards or two-timing body guards. And those guards were involved in something obviously illegal and BurtW looked to the investigators like he's working for them as a bagman and not vice-versa?

[CoinCidental]

When did she say it was "hidden?" I heard "from around the house."

In my house, at this moment, there's cash in my wallet, in my wife's purse, in the safe, in a drawer and probably a couple of other places I've forgotten about. The amounts are all under $1000 but I'm sure if I was targeted as Burt was it would all be confiscated and I'd describe it in the same way.

There is a miscommunication going on in this thread.

I'm going to guess that most of the posters here don't remember the days when the delivery vans used to have "Driver doesn't cary cash" painted on them.

Again the interesting and unusual part isn't whether it is "legal" or "illegal" to keep that much cash at family residence with small kids. The question is: is it safe and sane? The people who really handle that cash on the daily basis treat it in a way similar to dangerous explosives. Because cash first of all attracts crime.

I'm thinking that maybe BurtW wasn't telling his wife everything, maybe he kept additional job for cover, maybe he tried to keep double and/or cooked books and gotten over his head in it?

Keeping $30,000+ in cash on hand when you're trading bitcoins makes sense to me.

At a family residence with wife and small kid? I think you are either unmarried/childless or homicidal/suicidal/infanticidal.

30K IS NOT A LOT OF MONEY THESEDAYS

if you live in a good area and are wealthy its not unreasable to think some people have cash or even gold well in excess of 30k

maybe  he took precautions ,had it stashed in a safe or split up in various locations around the house

someone who is practically famous for doing big deals face to face for the last few years would need to have operational cash on hand in case the phone rings and someone wants to dump some cheap btc ASAP to take advantage of the situation and make a profit etc

[2112]

30K IS NOT A LOT OF MONEY THESEDAYS

if you live in a good area and are wealthy its not unreasable to think some people have cash or even gold well in excess of 30k

maybe  he took precautions ,had it stashed in a safe or split up in various locations around the house

someone who is practically famous for doing big deals face to face for the last few years would need to have operational cash on hand in case the phone rings and someone wants to dump some cheap btc ASAP to take advantage of the situation and make a profit etc

Yeah right. Personal face-to-face trades with anonymous people, done nearly daily for couple of years. With no single instance of violent crime.

Maybe someone will dump some bricks on your head to make you understand what's wrong in your picture.

[CoinCidental]

30K IS NOT A LOT OF MONEY THESEDAYS

if you live in a good area and are wealthy its not unreasable to think some people have cash or even gold well in excess of 30k

maybe  he took precautions ,had it stashed in a safe or split up in various locations around the house

someone who is practically famous for doing big deals face to face for the last few years would need to have operational cash on hand in case the phone rings and someone wants to dump some cheap btc ASAP to take advantage of the situation and make a profit etc

Yeah right. Personal face-to-face trades with anonymous people, done nearly daily for couple of years. With no single instance of violent crime.

Maybe someone will dump some bricks on your head to make you understand what's wrong in your picture.

i guess youre some kid who doesnt know what real money looks like yet (and probably never will ) so il give you a pass lol

kisses

[2112]

Yeah, $30K around the house sounds like a lot.

It not just "$30K around the house". He was widely known for doing cash deals nearly daily for a long time. Keeping cash at home in a safe or under the proverbial mattress, when nobody knows about it is safe and sane. It is a completely different story when everyone and his dog knows that he was a cash operator.

What kind of miraculous force protected him from robbery for all those years?