Money is an imaginary concept, but humanity is enslaved by it

[BobK71]

Unfortunately bitcoin doesn't solve the problem of who controls the money. 

There's no central issuing authority so I'm not talking about the traditional form of currency control, but the control that comes from the fact that anyone adopting bitcoin today probably has to buy it from an existing bitcoin holder.  Creating your own is barely economical for people in China with access to some of the world's cheapest and most polluting energy sources.  It's no longer a currency that anyone with some knowledge and a little bit of cash can have a go at generating and not lose value overall in the process.

I believe the bitcoin price mania that occurred in mid/late 2013 was stifled by the simple fact that people began to look at one bitcoin and wonder why it should be worth more than the other traditional and ancient form of currency, one troy ounce of gold.  I know we can shift decimal places, use mBTC and declare the above statement doesn't matter, but it's impossible to hide from the maths.

It's only natural that gold or bitcoin becomes expensive to mine.  You wouldn't want to own something that people can easily create.

[1715152540]

1715152540

[BobK71]

I have often thought that electronically represented gold, where the 'coin' could not be issued unless the physical metal were stored, would be the most stable, but that goes to the problem of trust in the issuing authority, and its immunity from government seizure.

In a world run mostly with inflated financial assets (fiat money, debt, etc.) the scenario where gold or bitcoin really, really shines is the catastrophic (but highly unlikely, at least in the short term) collapse of confidence in *all* of the inflated assets.  But that is also the very scenario where various intermediaries between you and your savings have an especially great incentive to (at least partially) steal it from you, one way or another.

It's like playing poker where you hold a highly speculative hand, that will really rake it in if cards come out just right.  If, for some reason, you can't collect in that scenario, what would be the point?

So, avoid paper gold and storing much bitcoin with the exchange.

[johnyj]

I have often thought that electronically represented gold, where the 'coin' could not be issued unless the physical metal were stored, would be the most stable, but that goes to the problem of trust in the issuing authority, and its immunity from government seizure.

The same thoughts behind the concept of "smart contract", but the same problem as no one can approve the validity of those assets that backing them

The blockchain itself only validate the bitcoin, nothing else related to physical world, but this can be regarded as a merit instead of limitation. Since if some large gold business backing bitcoin disappeared, it will not hurt the integrity of bitcoin network, thus will not prevent others from backing bitcoin. The backing of bitcoin comes from accepting bitcoin payment, nothing else is needed to back bitcoin

[Sithara007]

In fact time has almost equal value to everyone. Each person owns about the same amount of time during his entire life. But unfortunately, time can not be transferred

Not really, some people die at 20 some people die at 90. Should we have a "time welfare" where we would take out the "life energy" of 50 year olds who could live till 90, and let them die at 50, and give it to the 20 year old that would die in 20 just to live till 50, is that moral?

Time socialism?

You get maximum 2 magnitudes of difference, while in fiat money, money creators can claim trillions of fiat money with a flip of a pen and many people barely make their ends meet

If you want to define something's value to be universally equal to everyone, thus can be used as a unit of value, then fiat money is definitely not a good candidate, since it worth so little for the money creator while worth so much for poor people. However, if you take 10 years time, it would worth similar to any one with normal health: 1/7 of his life

Its not about time but work output some are faster.

Is there any output more valuable than life itself? Of course when your life is threatened by not getting enough food and shelter, those things seems more important than time, but in today's society, those basic needs are never a problem in most of the countries

if you think like that then you have never been to countries like Malawi, Niger, South Sudan, India, China.
There are people who can't afford to drink clean water. Two times food will be counted as a luxury for them. Go out and see the world, dear.

[freeyourmind]

if you think like that then you have never been to countries like Malawi, Niger, South Sudan, India, China.
There are people who can't afford to drink clean water. Two times food will be counted as a luxury for them. Go out and see the world, dear.

There are many places in the world where basic physiological needs aren't met, but that isn't because of a shortage of resources or output.  It is just because our resources are allocated very selectively, where a large amount of resources are accessed by a small % of people based on financial wealth.

However I second the recommendation to travel as much as possible if you have the means to do so

[johnyj]

if you think like that then you have never been to countries like Malawi, Niger, South Sudan, India, China.
There are people who can't afford to drink clean water. Two times food will be counted as a luxury for them. Go out and see the world, dear.

Most of the poverty today are not caused by lacking of resource or production technology, but by lacking of money, and today's fiat money system is the major cause of it, since it continuously shift wealth to ruling class

If the time of each person is used as currency, then every people in those developing countries will become almost equally rich as the person in developed countries. Unfortunately, in today's system they must work like a slave, use their precious life to exchange for some food that people throwing away every day in developed countries. Without money, their freedom is very limited, but with fiat money, they would never gain freedom

Some people might say that has something to do with education, but that is not true. A higher degree might give you a better career 100 years ago, but now there are so many people with higher degrees can not find a job.

If you look at the ruling class of those developing country, they live almost the same life as western elites. Now most of the European luxury products are bought by Chinese

[GreenStox]

if you think like that then you have never been to countries like Malawi, Niger, South Sudan, India, China.
There are people who can't afford to drink clean water. Two times food will be counted as a luxury for them. Go out and see the world, dear.

Most of the poverty today are not caused by lacking of resource or production technology, but by lacking of money, and today's fiat money system is the major cause of it, since it continuously shift wealth to ruling class

If the time of each person is used as currency, then every people in those developing countries will become almost equally rich as the person in developed countries. Unfortunately, in today's system they must work like a slave, use their precious life to exchange for some food that people throwing away every day in developed countries. Without money, their freedom is very limited, but with fiat money, they would never gain freedom

Some people might say that has something to do with education, but that is not true. A higher degree might give you a better career 100 years ago, but now there are so many people with higher degrees can not find a job.

If you look at the ruling class of those developing country, they live almost the same life as western elites. Now most of the European luxury products are bought by Chinese

Tyrants, political parasites, puppets, banksters, thiefs, fraudsters. The same trash subhumans that are infecting humanity with their filthy virus since it's inception.

We really need to stop this once and for all.

[Sithara007]

Money or types of currency have been used since 700 BC.  Since then it has been a way for people to fall into a certain social class and also so that everyone would not own a $500,000 house. If everything was free would you want to work? Almost everyone would say no. Money used to be backed up by gold (at least in the US). Since then the dollar is based on the governments supply of money instead of it's actual backing in gold. If you look at Germany after WW1 they printed tons of money to pay back the countries that they owed and the citizens money was almost worthless because of the extreme inflation rate.

No. not only US, every country has to back up the printing of money by equivalent amount of Gold, GDP and export or any other income the country is having. They can not just print the money like that.

[Enzyme]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

[BobK71]

if you think like that then you have never been to countries like Malawi, Niger, South Sudan, India, China.
There are people who can't afford to drink clean water. Two times food will be counted as a luxury for them. Go out and see the world, dear.

Most of the poverty today are not caused by lacking of resource or production technology, but by lacking of money, and today's fiat money system is the major cause of it, since it continuously shift wealth to ruling class

If the time of each person is used as currency, then every people in those developing countries will become almost equally rich as the person in developed countries. Unfortunately, in today's system they must work like a slave, use their precious life to exchange for some food that people throwing away every day in developed countries. Without money, their freedom is very limited, but with fiat money, they would never gain freedom

Some people might say that has something to do with education, but that is not true. A higher degree might give you a better career 100 years ago, but now there are so many people with higher degrees can not find a job.

If you look at the ruling class of those developing country, they live almost the same life as western elites. Now most of the European luxury products are bought by Chinese

Good post, thank you.  What I suspect is driving inequality in general (not the abject poverty necessarily) is that there is a mutually reinforcing vicious cycle between inequality and financial instability.

Financial instability periodically robs people of savings and jobs.  That makes them desire to provide good work for money at low prices.  But with inequality, most of the available work serves, more and more, the needs and whims of the rich countries and individuals.  But too many people doing "useless" work doesn't make for stable demand.  As financial fragility builds and eventually becomes a financial bust (mild or severe), the rich (and relatively rich) cut back spending and throw the rest out of work.  Thus the cycle continues.

Throughout this process, the cornerstone is the trust in paper money.  That is the glue that holds this whole process together.

[johnyj]

Money or types of currency have been used since 700 BC.  Since then it has been a way for people to fall into a certain social class and also so that everyone would not own a $500,000 house. If everything was free would you want to work? Almost everyone would say no. Money used to be backed up by gold (at least in the US). Since then the dollar is based on the governments supply of money instead of it's actual backing in gold. If you look at Germany after WW1 they printed tons of money to pay back the countries that they owed and the citizens money was almost worthless because of the extreme inflation rate.

No. not only US, every country has to back up the printing of money by equivalent amount of Gold, GDP and export or any other income the country is having. They can not just print the money like that.

Previously, money are backed by gold, which is already done work with equal value. But now money are backed by debt, just a promise from future, and the future debt repayment is backed by the future ability of borrowing more money, similar to a Ponzi scheme

[johnyj]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

The money is the key for the cooperated production in the society, so that each person can focus on his own work. However, when money creation can be done for free, then everyone become the slave of money creator

[SOAD]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

Well what did people do before money? They either used good old fashioned bartering or provided services in exchange for items or other services. I think money is the best option we have currently and probably always will be but not with the way fiat money is printed willy-nilly by the corrupt minority that control it and that's why I think bitcoin has the potential to be better than fiat.

[BTCevo]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

Well what did people do before money? They either used good old fashioned bartering or provided services in exchange for items or other services. I think money is the best option we have currently and probably always will be but not with the way fiat money is printed willy-nilly by the corrupt minority that control it and that's why I think bitcoin has the potential to be better than fiat.

And why do people want to go back to be old fashioned again when they already got something that can be used easily to get everything they need? Of course money is actually more comfortable to use rather than do bartering. And I dont think bitcoin have a great potential to change our money now because we are not going pay things in a huge ammount using bags of coins. Its just like ask people to rob us carry bags of coins like that

[Lauda]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.
Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

Well what did people do before money? They either used good old fashioned bartering or provided services in exchange for items or other services. I think money is the best option we have currently and probably always will be but not with the way fiat money is printed willy-nilly by the corrupt minority that control it and that's why I think bitcoin has the potential to be better than fiat.

And why do people want to go back to be old fashioned again when they already got something that can be used easily to get everything they need? Of course money is actually more comfortable to use rather than do bartering. And I dont think bitcoin have a great potential to change our money now because we are not going pay things in a huge ammount using bags of coins. Its just like ask people to rob us carry bags of coins like that

Indeed. Even though the system is flawed we can't really go back to the old ways. Either we need something new that will work or we stay the way it is.


I guess the rich people are okay with the system. It makes the rich richer and the poor more poor. Why would they complain?
Although the image is not accurate obviously it does send a message.

[johnyj]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.
Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

Well what did people do before money? They either used good old fashioned bartering or provided services in exchange for items or other services. I think money is the best option we have currently and probably always will be but not with the way fiat money is printed willy-nilly by the corrupt minority that control it and that's why I think bitcoin has the potential to be better than fiat.

And why do people want to go back to be old fashioned again when they already got something that can be used easily to get everything they need? Of course money is actually more comfortable to use rather than do bartering. And I dont think bitcoin have a great potential to change our money now because we are not going pay things in a huge ammount using bags of coins. Its just like ask people to rob us carry bags of coins like that

Indeed. Even though the system is flawed we can't really go back to the old ways. Either we need something new that will work or we stay the way it is.

I guess the rich people are okay with the system. It makes the rich richer and the poor more poor. Why would they complain?
Although the image is not accurate obviously it does send a message.

In fiat money's case, even the purchasing power stay the same, e.g. the production increase at the same speed as money supply increases, that still does not justify the fact that money printer get rich by just printing money without putting any real work. The key point is that money as a universally accepted form of commodity, must be produced at a cost close to its face value, just like any other commodities

The sad thing is, most of the people do not care about bank's theft as long as there is no inflation. And after one or two generations they will discover that everything valuable in this country now belongs to banks or their subsidiary, and even so they will feel it is normal, because banks are supposed to be rich in their imagination

[freeyourmind]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

Well what did people do before money? They either used good old fashioned bartering or provided services in exchange for items or other services. I think money is the best option we have currently and probably always will be but not with the way fiat money is printed willy-nilly by the corrupt minority that control it and that's why I think bitcoin has the potential to be better than fiat.

Depends on the type of civilization.  Commerce requires trade or exchange of money.  There are also hunter/gatherer or tribal communities where people contribute what they can and work as a unit, and money wouldn't be required for that type of community.

There's nothing wrong with fiat money; it's just the method for creating money that can be a problem, and is currently a problem.  If FIAT had no monetary expansion as part of the policy, then it would be fine and would favour no one.

[Natalia_AnatolioPAMM]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

that's pity no one realizes it

[johnyj]

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

that's pity no one realizes it

Without fiat money, people will quickly find other substitutes, be it gold, silver, or bitcoin, but will never use some thing that is produced out of thin air

[Lauda]

In fiat money's case, even the purchasing power stay the same, e.g. the production increase at the same speed as money supply increases, that still does not justify the fact that money printer get rich by just printing money without putting any real work. The key point is that money as a universally accepted form of commodity, must be produced at a cost close to its face value, just like any other commodities

The sad thing is, most of the people do not care about bank's theft as long as there is no inflation. And after one or two generations they will discover that everything valuable in this country now belongs to banks or their subsidiary, and even so they will feel it is normal, because banks are supposed to be rich in their imagination

That's what I'm talking about. The system is flawed in addition to people being ignorant. Why should they care about potential problems when it is more important for them to have Facebook and such.
The printer shouldn't be getting rich. The people doing the hard work should be getting paid, but it is all backwards.

Without money everything would be chaos, with money everything is chaos.

Who would make the clothes you're wearing right now for free, nobody, unless they're slaves.

that's pity no one realizes it

Well there could be a system that could force this but I don't see how complexity would help anyone.