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Yay, waste more coins on PMBs that will have zero value soon :)

Take a look at this: http://bitcoindifficulty.com/

Print it out, hang it on your wall - upside down - and this is your PMB's value.

There is no denying that there is a market of people that want to buy their hashes through mining assets on the exchanges, rather than buy mining equipment themselves.

My goal was to lower that cost with this asset. It is priced to be less expensive than any other mining bond, per hash. Hopefully people will see that they are overpaying elsewhere, and take the opportunity to lessen their overhead.

The ASICMINER shares backing this are unencumbered ones, correct?  i.e. this isn't being backed by the same shares that are backing your pass-throughs?

That is correct, there will be no double-representation. All of my ASICMINER/G.ASIC/AM-PT/ASICM/TAT.AM holdings are verifiable, including my public BTCTC portfolio, my Friedcat address, and my BitFunder address (which is the same as mine with Friedcat).

Where do the dividends come from? If ASICMINER pays less than current mining reward per MH (due to various reasons, such as necessary reinvestment), will TAT fill up the dividend from own resources?

I assumed that would be the case - just wanted it made explicit.

If ASICMINER dividends are insufficient, I have a reserved pool of bitcoins to cover any differences. As part of my personal plan to protect myself in this endeavor, I must reserve a fair amount of personal coins to remain agile and prepared for any market/mining shifts.

The asset is open for early bidding: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE (https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE)

The IPO will go live at 12 PM EST.

Sweet, I could use some TAT.VM for my TAT.AM 8)

tat.Virtualmine countdown (http://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20130602T12&p0=2416&msg=+https%3A%2F%2Fbitfunder.com%2Fasset%2FTAT.VIRTUALMINE)

Do you own any hardware to back up this asset?

Or is this a totally virtual asset?
Yes backed by shares, still virtual!

Since difficulty can change during a day, which of the 2 difficulties (higher/lower) will be used for calculation or do you calculate the actual proper amount based on the time stamp of the block where difficulty changes?

Also I'm not too happy with the "buyback at 200 times current dividend" clause... Maybe change it to "the mining income of 200 days at 1 MH/s at the current difficulty". All you need to do otherwise is to pay a 1 Satoshi dividend and then do a buyback.

In the end you're betting on hash rates going up while we are expected to bet on them going down. ::)
If they go up fast enough, you can buyback and reap the profits, otherwise you at least have some cash at hands early while loosing some of your ASICMINER dividends.

I guess you have no idea what the difference between a bond (debt) and a share (equity) are :)   

It sound like you are borrowing money forever to buy up some other stuff and are willing to pay a dividend from what ever this other stuff earns.

Lets fix this for you:


If this is a perpetual mining bond with a fixed Mh/s , this is superb opportunity for investment if you truly believe that difficulty will drop or stand still after all those ASICS finally hit the market.
In really simple terms: Every time diff crawls up, your Mh/s earns you less than before.
Good luck!

...and for fuck sake people, bonds do not pay dividends!
Bonds pay interest to the bondholders. Why? Because bond is a DEBT aka loan.

Get this shit right and you start making sense. This is not that hard to master

The dividend section above specifies exactly what difficulty will be used. It will use the difficulty at 12PM EST they day before the dividend is issued. The only way this could ever be an issue is if difficulty changed at exactly 12PM EST one day. Which is extremely unlikely.


You misunderstand how it works, the dividend is determined by the mining difficulty and the formula described. I can't issue a dividend at an arbitrary amount in order to buy back shares unfairly. Dividends are issued daily as described by the fixed method.


My goal is not to pull a "fast one". It is to provide the lowest cost mining asset on the market. There is indeed a risk that I face if mining difficulty stagnates. This offering simply provides people with the opportunity described at the beginning of its description:
1. To provide the most affordable and competitive alternative to other mining assets currently available.
2. To provide an easy choice for investors to earn mining rewards without the responsibility and hassle of running personal mining rigs and farms.

I understand your points about wording things specifically as bonds and debt. The only reason I use both "share" and "bond" is because each one does represent a dynamic total of the hashing I am responsible for, which must ultimately be backed by its share another asset. Each bond represents a share of that total. The reason for calling them dividends is also a semantic issue because the payouts are strictly related to mining rewards from the 1mh/s being offered.

I know this is semantically frustrating, but I do believe the general understanding of the way this works is quite clear nonetheless. Everyone is getting what they are paying for, and functionally this asset works no worse than any other mining asset that distributes its hashing rewards.

Regarding the IPO, can we pre-purchase x shares @ the IPO price? Or will this open and then we will get filled at whatever price it opens at?

IPO will go live in about an hour, early bidding is open: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE (https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE)

Below is a chart showing a comparison of the cost per 1MH/s for each mining asset currently on the market. I apologize if some details are a pinch out of date, it's hard to keep up with changing prices, etc! Feel free to check my math and let me know if I missed anything.

https://i.imgur.com/lzpvjDQ.gif

What? Not at 12pm EST?

No prepurchase. You can already place a bid and it will get matched normally against the 100K@0.007 IPO order.

12pm EST is still the plan :) about 50m from now.

So a BFL 5Gh will cost about 54.80 per Gh but your's will cost 7? How is that even possible, what is your hashing power backed by?

mentioned on the 1st page:


Also:

Your math is incorrect. I am selling 1 MH/s increments.

I'm thinking of buying more mining hardware, I'll probably invest in here.

I hope you won't make the same mistake as picostocks issuer, who put into market more shares at half the market price without advice because the price was going too high. Let people know about your plans if possible. Thanks.

They also have TAT.ASICMINER shares as well fyi

After about 4 hours, we're at about 45% of the IPO shares sold. Thanks to everyone for your support so far!

I would buy some if there wasn't WeExchange.. Why did you put this only on BitFunder and not on btct.co?

It would be nice if this were on BTCT.

I may apply to list this on BTCTC soon. I had limited time this week to prepare for a larger IPO across exchanges and decided to focus on one.

If BTCTC is interested, I am too!

+1

I'm pretty new to the mining side of bitcoin, but using this calculator online http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/ it appears that 200 shares will earn a profit of $1.01 USD/day.  Am I reading this/entering the info correctly?

An application has been submitted. ;)

Yep you are right, but the catch is the increasing difficulty.. For example when the dificulty raises in the next few days to aproximetly 14495071 (just an estimation) you will get more like 0.862 USD/day

:D

If the application goes through will you sell shares at IPO price at BTCT?

Yes, assuming it gets approved somewhat quickly.

If it does get approved what are your recomendations for transfer?

Transfer what? Shares from BF? I see no need to do that really. The BTCTC version will act separately on its own.

Nice to know that hopefully this will be on BTCT soon, I will definitely consider buying a few hundred shares.

However this is my main concern that might hold me back:

Buying a share is the equivalent of buying 1 MH/s in hashing ability. This amount of hashing power will remain static while difficulty will increase at around 10-20% every other week, so won't the value of the stock share go down significantly over time?

That, and, at current difficulty it seems that it will take ~250 days to break-even.

Mining difficulty is likely to generally go up over time, but share price for most mining assets is usually much more delayed in being affected. I can't control the market, but I would not be surprised at all if share value actually goes up in the short term. I am offering something at nearly half the rate of other issuers, so it's possible the prices will meet somewhere in the middle.

It's also possible that something could happen to stagnate difficulty, and even though it's unlikely, there is always a chance that difficulty could rise very slowly for a period, allowing healthy dividends to be prolonged.

There may also be strategies for reinvesting dividends into more bonds in the short term, that might allow you to float over the diff changes, combined with a healthy share price. There is a lot to consider, and many dynamics to factor in this market. Overall, ALL mining assets have their risks, as well as their relationship to difficulty changes.

I bolded a statement that I find to be fairly accurate and is a major motivator in buying shares, however in the original post you also have claimed the right to issue new shares at "fair market price" :

This right, in addition to the fact that there is no ceiling to the number of shares that may be in circulation at any one time, leads to the following risk:

- The "fair market value" of 1 MH/s decreases significantly over time
- You, as per your right, begin to issue more shares (You can do this infinitely as per current rules) at the new fair market value, which will be below IPO price.
- The overall value of the stock declines much faster than it would have otherwise

Rinse and repeat.

So given what I have stated above, I would like to ask
1.) How often do you plan on issuing new shares?
2.) Will warning be given before issuing new shares?

So.. i did some number crunching...
a Block Erupter Blade ASICMINER   10   costs ฿ 50 and delivers 10,000 Mh/s
now lets say you use those 50 btc and buy bonds you get 50/0.007 = 7142 shares or 7,142 Mh/s (the 7,4142 was a typo :P)

hmm interesting...

Check your math, you've got an extra 4 in there ;)

This asset was intentionally priced to be more expensive than a Block Erupter.

It is not my goal to devalue the bonds prematurely, but I did need a way to allow myself to issue more shares in the future because my analysis leads me to believe demand will be high. It is in everyone's best interest (including my own) for the value to be set by the market.

I do not have a set plan for frequency of sales, but I will consider coming up with a way to make the issuance of new bonds more structured and/or formulaic.

At the moment, I plan to play it by ear. I do not want to sell an infinite amount of shares, even if I could. There are real liabilities at stake here.

Investing in this bond is essentially a bet against ASICMiner growth.

Otherwise if you think ASICminer is going to have strong growth - buy shares.
If you think another company is going to grow faster or release a hot ASIC - then buy that.
The reason to buy this bond is that you think ASICMiner won't grow as fast as expected AND other ASIC projects won't succeed as fast as expected.  Then having a guaranteed hash rate is good.

By betting against ASICMiner growth the bond owners are also betting against the bond issuer.

hi tat, your handy chart should include picostock's 100th bitfury project.  200mh/share for btc0.289 at present is 0.001445 per mh.

https://picostocks.com/stocks/view/19

Yeah it should. 100TH is about 5x cheaper than TAT.VM, but not mining for a few more months at least, and the issuer screwed some people by distributing more shares at a lower price after IPO. ASIC.COOP's numbers are about the same.

Not quite. People getting into TAT.VM are either looking for somewhere to put their coins as an intermediate between ups and downs in other stocks, or they're looking for passive consistent dividends yielding 5-30% APY (interest a year), like a normal solid stock. It's the *safe* choice. Currently people use YABMC for this, but YABMC doesn't have many shares on Bitfunder (500), and on BTCT it doesn't have much activity, isn't clear to people on the MH per share, and does weekly dividends (the difficulty for the last 6 days will be whatever is on the 7th day, which isn't fair). YABMC has been fairly consistent in price. Actually, it's been increasing, as more people want to use it as an intermediate. TAT.VM is very clear, and daily, and on Bitfunder. It's a great intermediary if you're interested in it. It's at like 30% APY, which is nothing to sneeze at, so even as it decreases to 5% it's still a good holding, thus the price should not drop below the IPO very much.

The IPO price seems to be chosen to be just a bit more expensive than the cost/hash of an Asicminer USB stick (142 MH/BTC for TAT.VM vs ~150-170 MH/BTC for Asicminer USB). Given that people are buying those, and those are physical hardware that has a finite lifespan, draws electricity, has to be shipped so it can't start hashing right away, needs to be plugged into a USB port that also costs a certain amount of money, etc, it would seem that TAT.VM is priced pretty well. Remember that the inherent problem of your investment's hash power staying still while network hashrate grows applies just as much to the purchase of any physical mining hardware. If you discount the risk of having to trust a third party rather than owning a physical piece of hardware, I'd say this asset would probably be worth somewhere around 0.01-0.015 BTC / share until ASICs cheaper than Asicminer ones are freely available. I think it will rise considerably above the IPO price in the short term, before falling sometime around when people can freely buy (and have shipped right away) ASIC hardware such as from BFL or Avalon, or if Asicminer sells future blades/USBs at a lower price.

Something to invest in on Bitfunder other than AMC, although riding their ups and downs helped me grow my initial .1 investment into over .122 in a couple week's time.  This investment seems more trustworthy to me, as my TAT.ASICMINER on BTCT has been decent.

Can you explain what you mean by "backed by ... ASICMINER shares"? Does this mean that TAT.VM holds shares of ASICMINER, and these shares belong to bond holders? Or, does it just mean that TAT.VM promises to hold a certain number of shares of ASICMINER as assurance that TAT.VM dividends will be paid?

Also, does "ASICMINER shares that represent an amount of hashing power" mean average hashing power per ASICMINER share? For example, the current ASICMINER hashing power is about 20 Th/s, or about 50 Mh/s/share, so each TAT.VM share would be backed by 1/50th of an ASICMINER share, right?

Finally, in addition to mining, a portion of ASICMINER dividends is based on the profits from sales of hardware. What happens to this portion of the dividends?

Nice analysis, however you could also conclude that the hardware is over-priced.

I pity the person who sold 1000 TAT.VM shares at 0.0007 instead of 0.007 by mistake on bf .That's what created an interesting V in the chart.

yep indeed its 7142 mh/s :P

Ouch.  Pretty good deal for whoever ended up snatching that up though.

hehe yeah i shaw and was like whaaaat?

Wouldn't the fundamental value of these shares be inversely proportional to difficulty?

That means that they are designed to slowly dwindle in value until they are worthless. doesn't it?

i don't see how you could possibly get an ROI in the long term. could be good for a short stint though if you get out at the right time.

TAT.VM promises to hold a certain number of ASICMINER shares as extra assurance that the daily payouts will be made. This is in addition to the confidence that I have enough personal bitcoin to make payouts, even if I didn't hold backing assets.

Your understanding of the hashing aspect and how it works to back this asset is correct. Essentially, I am promising to hold an amount of AM shares that provably represents and equal or greater amount of hashing power to the amount of TAT.VM I have sold.

The only relationship my AM holdings have to this asset is as a form of assurance that the daily payout, as determined by the 24-hour hashing reward formula, will be paid with total confidence. TAT.VM is strictly meant to represent a virtual 1MH/s of hashing power, and the average mining rewards that might reap in a real-world setting, as determined by the formula.

-----

If I may, I'm hoping to address your dissenting vote for TAT.VM to list on BTCTC

TAT.VM is more than a simple bond, as it provides a speculative instrument that is very relevant within the current market environment. Due to the overpriced and obfuscated value of the majority of mining assets on the market, there will be creative ways to "play" this asset that will also lead to making a profit, due to its daily payout frequency and that the market likely considers TAT.VM to be underpriced.

What I am offering, despite its obvious exposure to mining difficulty increases, is one of the best value hashing representations out there.

Additionally, no matter how unlikely it may seem, it is not a guarantee the mining difficulty will go up forever, and this asset does provide a method for someone to hedge against that. In this sense I do have real risks on the table, risks that I had to consider heavily in pricing this asset.

Thank you for your questions, I do hope my answers help you to reconsider your vote for TAT.VM on BTCTC!

I considered them, but most people have never used picostocks.com, and I'm uncertain of its trustworthiness and notoriety within the community.

The chart was merely meant to paint a picture of a generally overpriced marketplace. If/when I update it in the future, I'll reconsider the 100TH project, particularly if it has materialized by then. ;)

Same with me. Do a PTs on BF or BTCT with TAT. !

when are the dividends payed?

will they be payed after all the 100k shares from IPO have been sold?

Dividends are paid daily at roughly 12PM EST. BitFunder does not have a feature to allow me to schedule payouts ahead of time, so they must be done manually.

Payouts will be made on this schedule regardless of the amount of shares sold.

The first payout will be in about 5 hours!

Manual? Wow, that sucks.

The IPO is 80% sold so far.

The first daily payout is in about an hour, at 0.00004138 per share.

The first daily payout is complete; 94% of the IPO sold in 24 hours!

Thanks to everyone for a successful day.

This is a good start to a project, thank you

TAT any news on a havelock release

Havelock talks are in the works, nothing guaranteed yet though.

in theory they will get worthless when mining doesnt produce more bitcoins sometimes in the future (2040?)
so id say it is possible you will get your money back and profit just by dividents but if that is a profitable idea is another matter...

Right now, the dividends are near 3.5% per week, which are significantly higher than what ASICminer can produce, I would say this would be a very profitable investment for about a month or so.

Them some sweet sweet divs. This first month will be the best, but it'll still be worth keeping it in here for ~8 months. After 8 months it'll prob be at 5% APY which is OK if stable.

Theres a near 10% disparity between the bids and asks over at bitfunder right now, someone could easily make a quick buck.

Congrats! should be able to make profit from this in the short term. Unless you get hasty with the releases any drive the market down....  :)

Will there be a notification process on the releases? or will they be kind of just sprung on the market?

You have not done research on the network difficulty.

Perhaps not enough, but anything is a guess without knowing how ASIC shipments will play out.

I guestimated based on coinish.com's calculator (http://o7.no/17VCnix) (rather than $2.66, it was at $62.6 with 0 months as time to delivery) with an increase in difficulty of 1.3% per day that it will be 23x now in 8 months (so around 300 mil). If the APY is around 120% now, it could be 5% in 8 months.

Whatever, if it's 5 months or it's 2%, the point is it'll be good holding onto it up to 5% APY anyway. Before we hit even 15% I don't expect people to be dropping out, YABMC is still going good.

But that's all moot if the value of your share drops. In addition, increasing per day is compound, and the network difficulty has being growing by more than 3% a day recently. The difference is huge:

1.03^365 = 48482x
1.013^365 = 111x

PMBs CAN only give a certain amount of output. The higher the difficulty is, the more the output is permanently reduced. The difficulty is not going to go back to pre-ASIC eras, unless Bitcoins become worthless, then well.

20% APR is horrible if after a year the shares are worth 75% of what they are before.

I think I am misunderstanding something. Each share is worth 1 Mhash/s but costs 0.007 BTC, which is about 84 cents, giving 0.84$/1Mhash.s
A 7950 costs around $300 but gives 500Mhash/s, giving 0.60$/1Mhash.s

Why would anyone purchase this share over just getting a GPU, ignoring the need for maintenance and whatnot.

Electricity, space, and yes maintenance has a value.

You won't have the option of holding onto it at 5% APY.

What you and lots of others have missed is the detail of the buyback clause.

"The issuer reserves the right to buy back bonds at a price equal to 110% of the highest price the asset was traded for over the prior 7 days or 200 times the value of the most recent dividend."

200 times last dividend means under 29 weeks dividend.  If APY falls to 5% of sales price then that means he can buy back for ~3% of sales price.  I'd expect forced buy back to be WELL before that point.

Right now the buy-back price is about 20% over trading price.  In about 3 difficulty changes' time it'll become profitable for him to buy back (even counting the dividends paid in the interim).  I'd expect him to wait longer than that - as there's more profit to be made letting difficulty rise a bit more first.

I've nothing at all against this sort of offering - I'm working on one myself.  But the buyback at under 30 weeks payout makes this a losing proposition for anyone other than TAT or people who flip shares fast - until their price falls a lot when some opportunities for profit WILL arise.

I've flipped all mine (for my fund) for a profit now - which is why I'm only explaining this now rather than earlier.  As an approximation, to stand a reasonable chance of making a profit on this you need to be buying at around half the current buy-back price (at 200 days' dividend).  I'm not going to explain all the math behind that - but try modelling with any reasonable prediction of network difficulty and you'll end up around that ball-park.

The devil is ALWAYS in the detail - in this case the detail of buy-back rights.

TAT.hot_potato

One question I have:  Is the issuer restricted in their ability to restructure the contract?  (I have seen in the past where a bond very much like this one recalculated the 'share' value from 1mh/s to something like 7mh/s)?  ....options trading

For that matter why not just get right down to the heart of it and setup a futures market trading in projected network hashrate, just sayin...


and as 'Deprived'  pointed out above me.. how does buyback fit into options trading? how is this normally calculated?

Buy-back for a bond would normally be at face value.  This (and just about ALL 'fixed-rate mining bonds') aren't actually bonds.  This is just a way for people who don't understand the math of mining to donate BTC to TAT - which isn't as bad as it sounds as you may donate less than on many other mining offerings based on actual hardware.

Mining securities, in general, make a profit for the issuers NOT for investors.  That's why they don't buy back at face value - as that would keep the risk with the issuer.

On options there is no buy-back : the transfer of value there occurs either at purchase or at execution of the option (depending on how you value it).  Here it'll primarily occur at buy-back as - until then - people will be exchanging them via the market at prices which ignore the reality of an impending buyback at below the traded price.

Thanks for clearing that up with me on the options.  Basically if I understand correctly: in summary if the option is never covered before the buyback the shares are gone so option can never be covered?

Some interesting math for the issuer to determine how soon he does the buy back.
current they can buy back@0.008276

40 hours from now they can buy back@0.006656

+2 weeks they can buy back at under 0.005? 0.004?

Assuming my math is correct this is an explosively hot potato..  The math for the issuer is how long will he wait to buy it back vs. paying the divs....

I hope my numbers are wrong....

The first few numbers are correct.  Predicting difficulty after the next change is guess-work.  But yes - you don't want to be holding them (if bought at initial price) after the next 3 difficulty changes for sure, possibly after next 2.  I would NOT expect him to buy back that quickly - the longer he waits the more profit he makes.  But at some point that crosses over with the opportunity cost of not using the ASIC-MINER shares to secure some other revenue stream (or ASIC-MINER share price starts to fall and he wants to sell so has to recall these to free up the shares).

buying them for 0.004 btc each

Why are BTCT mods so lazy? So far only 4 votes.

I agree, but as I said, I don't expect people to drop out before 15% APR, thus the shares would be worth 100% of what they were before until that breaking point. B.YABMC is doing just fine at 55% APR - it's actually going up.

I don't expect the difficulty to go down. I didn't expect it to go up that much though. If you're right, this bond won't last my proposed 8 months, but it's still fine for 2-3 months at least. We'll see.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just a bit more optimistic.

Yah, Deprived is right, and I don't expect TAT wants to give his new capital back so soon. Maybe at 0.004 or less. That'll be a while.

But this 200x buyback is kind of bull. You should have to buy back at the IPO value IMO.

It doesn't matter if people drop out before "15% APR", the price will go down because mining itself only produces a fixed amount of BTC. Every single BTC paid out is one less BTC that could be mined.

It is not like a company that can grow in the future. It's like a company making products for a market that always shrinks in numbers. In addition, as the difficulty increases the price will drop.

Your theory doesn't really hold up in the real world. Yes, obviously, it's perpetual mining, *the BTC mined* is going to go down. Yet people still buy and hold onto it.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58484258/Screenshots/2l8_.png

Initially rocky, but look since March, it's become more stable and gone up on average. Yet look at the dividends slowly dwindling.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/58484258/Screenshots/d58y.png

Are you aware of the price that YAMBC initially was traded at?

It also has tiny volume, and yes sometimes markets are illogical.

The difference is that this one has a buy-back allowed at a low multiple of daily dividend.

If the price stays high then not only can he buy back the shares for far less - but immediately before doing so he can fill the markt bids so as to make an immediate profit on purchases that never receive a single dividend.

It's already hard for people who haven't managed to flip yet - as when they sell they're competing against the issuer who's steadily selling more into Bids.

Irrelevant.


I agree that buyback clause sucks. I still don't think it applies for the next few difficulties. I'm also not sure TAT is in the business of screwing people over. Would be good to amend it that he won't fill bids after he does a buyback, or it must be a complete buyback, or buy back at the IPO price. Shouldn't be allowed to IPO and buyback immediately either, because next difficulty if he IPO's at 0.007 he could immediate buyback at 0.0066, technically, even though I doubt he will, the agreement allows for it.

Paint it as sketchy as you want, but it's all about trust in the end. I have enough trust that TAT is aiming for a win/win situation. Which results in a few good months of divs if ya'll don't freak out with insecurity and theorycrafting.

FYI, the asset issuer will be able to buyback bonds for around 0.006 BTC when the next difficulty hits. It's going to be around 16 million.

So, yes it applies to the next difficulty in fact. I highly doubt the asset issuer will buy back through, this is simply pure profit for TAT.

Just as an FYI, my intent is for this asset to last as long as possible. The buyback terms are there as a way to exit the asset if necessary (something I hope to avoid as long as possible) not as a design to "pull a fast one" the moment it appears profitable to do so. I can't predict the future, and I definitely needed a way to stop the train if that's what's called for.

Keep in mind that if/when this asset depreciates, new bonds could still be issued at market prices, which could keep this asset afloat longer than most. The inspiration for this offering was indeed to find the bottom price for mining hashes, and provide that price, thus correcting the entire PMB (and some regular hardware mining) asset market.

I'm not saying this asset will last forever, or be perpetually profitable, or will never depreciate, or will never close down. I'm simply saying it was built to be used an instrument to anyone that understands how to use it, as well as any that don't.

Also, here is exactly why you cannot use YAMBC as an example:

https://i.imgur.com/ElQb1TA.png

ASICs changes the game, just like the effect GPUs and FPGAs had on the mining difficulty.

Sorry, I should be more clear. Yes, it technically applies to the next difficulty. I said that earlier, when I agreed with Deprived. What I mean is TAT did this for additional capital. I don't expect TAT wants to give his new capital back so soon. I don't see the point. AM keeps maintains or increases their hashrate, the difficulty goes up, he pays less dividends. It's a loan that he isn't making enough to pay initially but slowly is able to cover it, then it's just free money. He did the math, I don't know what it is, but I'm sure it ends up with free several thousand dollars at some point in the future. At least a few months, depending on AM.

Read my previous comment on faster difficulty means TAT has less reason to "pull a fast one". It's like you guys are throwing 2 different competing arguments at eachother for why this is a bad bond, but they both conflict logically.

Try taking it for what it is, and read the mans words.

We'll see if that makes any difference soon enough. Its share price still hasn't felt an impact. It's also still going to be sitting at nice interest per week. Higher than AM, and people buy into AM right before dividends. There's no reason to bail yet.

Since you seem to be really committed to it, let's have a 100 BTC wager - this vs Coinlenders over 3 months. Escrowed with John. Let me know and we can make a new thread.

"as well as any that don't."

Is this where the incentive comes from?

It's not about this vs Coinlenders. (Where did that come from?) It's just about this bond being just fine. You're the one coming into a thread with theories as to why it's bad in a hypothetical future, when it's doing just fine in the present reality.

In any case, I don't have 100 BTC, and I'm going to agree to disagree. If you're doing well with Coinlenders, that's great. Cheers sir.

How would you get on the other side of this currently?

This issue is logically a bet against network difficulty increase.

Are there any securities or derivatives that would place you on the other side?

https://bitfunder.com/asset/CoinBr.iDiff-O (https://bitfunder.com/asset/CoinBr.iDiff-O)

An argument against this bond and all other like it is basicly an argument against mining it self.
a GPU for example pays decreasing "dividents" over time and has diminising resale value
as the idea with mining is to sell your hardware at a price at a point that will allow you to make a profit
it is exactly the same here

..will the dividents be enough or the price decrease little enough to make a profit in the end?
Thats up for everyone to deside by himself
I dont see this as a sure win or a sure loss and propably will be both win and loss for some ppl...

You are coinlenders arent you?

It's not as black and white as being a bet against network difficulty increase.

Investing is a bet that difficulty won't rise at a fast enough rate to make investing in this unprofitable.  It's not quite the same thing.

TAT's bet (in launching the security at all) is that there's enough people willing to buy at an unprofitable price (or a break-even/marginally proftable one that gives him cheap capital) to justify the listing cost and effort of maintaining it.  He's on a safe bet there.

There'll be a security allowing you to bet on the other side, hopefully within a few days.

I ques this is where the hook is hidden. Bite and swallow hard.

If I recall correctly, ASICMINER has 2 sources of income:
1) mining with the ASIC's they build
2) Selling chips / rigs

Do I understand it correctly that:
3) the idea of this perpetual loan is to finance a purchase of X ASIC shares.
4) And pay pass the ASICMINER dividends to bond holders who's "coupon" is based not on what ASICMINER pays out but what 1 Mh/s can mine at current difficulty.

ASICMINER guys and their friends are the only ones who arrived on this party on time. Everyone else is getting slowly but surely screwed.
Why? Take a look a the dif. :) If dif. keep running up that hill at same or faster rate, earning back the money invested becomes really hard or even close to impossible. Except for those few, who have already have the ASIC's running.

Now, let's get back to this fabulous opportunity here :)

Lets say that 700 BTC - fees will buy about 290 ASICMINER shares.
EDIT: 290 ASICMINER will pay you about what, 72 7.54 BTC in divs per week?
100 000 Mh/s = will earn a lucky bond holders what? 28.9 BTC per week at diff. 12153411.7098? (and this will keep falling as fast as diff keeps climbing)

EDIT: 43 BTC per week for start at 0 risk?  Or did I make a mistake somewhere? (Yes I did) 

Isn't there is risk in assuming:

1. ASICMINER share value will not fall
2. The price of said PMB will not fall
3. ASICMINER won't blow up
4. ASICMINER won't choose to pay a lower div (which they have done)

?

I dont follow.. for 1 BTC ATM i can buy 140 virtual mine shares or 41 Tat. asicminer shares..  now

For VM 140 * 0.000041 * 7 = 0.040 BTC/week

For Tat 41 * 0.0002 = 0.009 BTC/week

Correct me if i am wrong in my understanding that VM is paying more dividends per week as compared to Tat
(Sorry i dont have enough BTC to buy an ASICminer share whole.. so Tat.asicminer for me.. )

errm didnt ASICMINER PT pay 0.02653753 per share this week so lets say 290 * 0.02653753 = 7.7 BTC per week?
or am i missing something?

I think the post was about the 1/100 passthrough, not a full AM share

No its for a full share.. hes buying 290 shares for 700 BTC you see..

Correct, I did make a mistake.

and here is why "quantity of ASICMINER shares that represent an amount of hashing power that is equivalent to TAT.VIRTUALMINE’s total simulated hashing power"

How much did you buy?  :)

Oh pa gambling style.......hei~~~sexy lady~~~~~~~

if the difficulties triple in one months, this will be a reasonable way to get money from issues a PMB...I think this could be happen we know ASICMINER going to deploy their 200TH.....and  100TH....AMC......even BTCGarden are on the way to jumping !!!......avalon chips shipping worldwide already.....BFL may start their shipments....
This just are gambling based on does he made right prediction of the market...just it!!!

for everyone holding PMB contracts...once there are better PMB in the market...then it will largely affecting the demand of TAT.VB !!! Holders will suffering in low liquidity!!!! and this situation will forced them to selling their contracts below IPO!!!!!!!! All PMB does not have maturity time, pretty nice in short-run, in long run is just worthless....

Yeah, if you go to Bitfunder you can see there's almost always some asshole who's got an offer of 1000 or 10,000 or something for the same price as the IPO with the a zero or two extra after the decimal, trying to catch people slipping.  I guess it worked this time...

Still, I think it's an asshole thing to do.  Everyone on Bitfunder could be doing that, this guy isn't clever, just a dick.

The free market is so free that it sometimes goes commando.

Lol seen that happen before too on other stocks makes interesting trendlines XD

Since were talking about Difficulty may as well also point out OrganofCorti's chart data
Investors will need to do all that math he-he those charts are sexy
http://organofcorti.blogspot.ca/

Difficulty will change in around 12 hours to 15M
I'll still keep my TAT.VM shares, dividend is 3x compare to AM

TAT, if I send you one bread, can you also make three out of it? ;D

TAT.VIRTUALBREAD, More Bread for Your Bread.

If your dividends are 100% of the amount mined by 1 Mh/s, then how do you make a profit? It seems to me that you are losing money on the deal unless you are somehow able to obtain the 1 Mh/s for less than 0.007 BTC.

Can you explain how you profit from this deal? I assume that it is not sustainable unless you are making a profit.

Jeebus would like a word, several in fact...

More like 2x.

at 15M difficulty

Let say 2.5btc AM per share with 0.027 dividend a week.
2.5 btc @ 0.007 = 357 VM shares with 0.000032212  dividend a day 

AM @ 1 share = 0.027 week div per share or 0.0038 div a day
VM @ 357 shares with 0.000032212/div per share = 0.0115 div a day

For 2.5 btc
AM Daily div 0.0038
VM Daily div 0.0115

I believe that is 3x for 15M diff

You're right. :D

ok so lets say i have like 10-12 btc to invest,
if i buy shares, when do i get dividends? and in a week or two can i sell the shares back and keep dividend?

at what price is shares selling for and buying for?
will i be able to sell them back?

whats a good price to buy them?

im looking to invest,

thanks
ELAZAR

Dividends are payed on a daily basis.
IPO was at 0.007, it's still a good time to buy. You can resell shares on the market.

how can i buy 1k for 7btc, im thinking of doing this, and maybe selling in a few days or week or something, can i put that 1gh into any mining calculator with the current dificulty and expect the same dividend?

Here: https://bitfunder.com/asset/TAT.VIRTUALMINE There's a link in the first post.
If you buy 7btc you should receive about 0.03btc per day at next difficulty. Maybe a bit more.
Here you can calculate your income if you'd mine alone: http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/

is that the only place i can buy them? and is there a limited amount of them, will they drop in value in the near future? 1month-2month ect

You can buy them only there, for now.
Investing is never a safe thing to do, you cannot know how the market will behave in the future or what could happen. You can just guess.

what controls how many will get put onto the market?, is there a limited amount of them, also when difficulty increases in 2 weeks or a month, wouldnt the price of these drop? because dividends are dropping,

so buying them would be betting on the difficulty not going up so fast? or betting on that i would be able to atleast sell them for same price i bought them for,

right?
seems a bit risky for my taste i guess

There is no bitcoin investment with no risk.
or you may keep your btc in cold wallet for 10 years, they said if bitcoin still available that time it may value $10k+/btc, but it has risk as well because it can be $0

http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/02/calculating-the-long-term-value-of-a-bitcoin/

Since you are a speculator, please stop saying investing.  Nobody invests with a 2-4 week horizon, they speculate.  If you think there will be less mining, this will increase in value, if the mining activity increases, these will decrease in value, it is simple math.

When can we expect TAT.VIRTUALMINE shares on BTCT.CO ???

When BTCTC fixes its application system.

TAT, difficulty will be 15M 1-2 hours before the dividend.
What will be the dividend difficulty computed then, the 12M or 15M? or 90% 12M and 10% 15M? 

This is in the contract, the dividend used the difficulty from 12PM EST the day before.

TAT.VM dividends have been paid, ฿0.00004138 per share.

As far as I can tell, TAT is free under the contract on Bitfunder to release more shares at any time, without advance notice, and to set any "fair market price" when doing so.  In fact it looks like he has done so once already -- there were originally 100k shares released, but now it looks like there are 115k total shares released.  I don't know if the additional 15k shares released at a later time were also sold at .007 or not, but TAT was probably not contractually obligated to set the price precisely at that level even if he happened to do so.

It is also my understanding that TAT is currently looking into the process of launching the same investment on at least one if not two other exchanges (btct and Havelock).   If successful, this would obviously result in the creation of more shares as well, albeit in a sister market.

So scarcity of shares, in the sense of a stable and known number of shares where the share issuer does not arbitrarily create more, does not appear to be a feature of this asset.

The asset will not be released on Havelock, this I can confirm. It's release on BTCTC is in question, but uncertain at the moment.

Some new "units" (I have to be careful with these terms...) were sold within the first 36 hours of the IPO release at roughly .0075 and higher. I have not participated in the market since then.

Oddly, other speculators seem to be holding down the price for now.

Regardless, the intent of this asset is to be denominated as 1MH/s. While I can affect the market value by releasing more, I cannot totally control the market from speculators or increased demand over time. I want to see a healthy price, just as much as the other unit holders. Generally, this asset is still undervalued when compared to other mining assets, or, you can say the others are overvalued...

I plan to take some time to see if I can think of a regulated way to issue new shares in the future, but I cannot promise a magical solution. At the moment, I have sold as much as I'd like to, and will probably not reassess until this weekend.

I can tell you that if the asset does get approved for release on BTCTC, I won't be releasing as many shares there (in the short term at least), and it will make it much less likely that I will release new shares on Bitfunder (in the short term).

why is anyone buying this? difficulty is going to increase. . .ASICs are coming on the market, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that much out.

I want to know ,when will you stop this IPO process??? if you always issuing new contracts...it make very difficult for us to selling our contract without loss....seems we are obligate to fee the 0.8% trading administration fee.... I do think if you would slightly issue less new contract it will be a good news for those earlier adopter...what you think here??

It seems you did not read the comment you quoted.

IPO is done so you can probably publish a simple reports, showing us how much TAT has as "shareholders equity" and how much you have as "investments" under assets in BTC. (ASICMINER and something else?) and all the other usual stuff (expences etc)

Conceptually, don't misunderstand the asset by thinking of the asset as a share in a business that will have some kind of protection against "dilution" farther down the road.  That is probably one reason TAT is trying to hew to the word "unit" and rejected my casual use of the word "share" to describe the asset.  It's much more like a bond.  Well...it IS a bond.

I can even see how calling its initial release an "IPO", although true in the technical sense, has a little potential to confuse people about what this is all about.  This is not an IPO that lets "early adopters" fund a risk-taking venture and expect greater reward for doing so.  It's just a bond with a structured payout.  The reward for early adopters compared to later adopters, if there is one at all, is collecting dividends while difficulty is still (relatively) lower.  I see little basis for the hope that unit prices will rise significantly in the open market, however, even if TAT chooses to limit further issurance of units from this point forward.

While I have not promised any sort of reports, and as a bond holder, one can't expect "shareholder equity" reports, I do appreciate that tracking my backing between my two assets could be time-consuming or complex for people, so I will consider including updates in my next transparency report that confirm my AM holdings readily.

The fact is that my holding addresses, and portfolios are already public and auditable weekly.

+1

I used the "shareholder equity" here kinda loosely (because you keep talking about dividends :) . Yes, TAT supposed to  be a bond (debt) so it sits on the other side of your balance sheet. Proceeds from sale of this bond are used to acquire equity, that will earn income to cover your (expenses) liabilities like coupon payments (that 1 Mh/s thingy)

Fuck, now I really like to see that balance sheet of yours :)

Damn was hoping this will get on Havelock..  :-[

Well at least we have normal ASIC div's first :)

Daily Payout: 115,000 shares were paid ฿0.00003223 each for TAT.VIRTUALMINER.

Why did the dividend amount drop? Is this share price related or difficulty change related?

 ???

All forms of mining are affected by difficulty.

As fully detailed, and discussed at length in this thread, these bonds are equivalent to 1 MH/s and paid daily according to the simulated hashing power according to the listed formula.

Basically the share prices will loosely reflect how much it cost per 1Mh/s. You can treat this bond as a mining rig that gets 100% instead of 95% from pools.

the Dividend was really low.. strange is that the difficulty  raised by 28%  but the Dividend was gone down by almost 50%     a bit strange or not?    Maybe TAT could offer a kind of Bonus because the dividend of th AM shares  was so high ;-)

Check your math please.  ;)

Its the same. ฿0.00003223*1.284=฿0.00004138. At this difficulty its ฿0.00003223 per 1 Mh/s. You can check it on a mining calculator.

It actually went down 22.1% from ฿0.00004138.

okay sorry  guys :-D    anyway  a nice bonus for every Virtualmine share  would be fine :-)

TAT  you just got a high dividend from your AM Shares

Just wondering, why should he give us a bonus?  The description of this asset clearly stated what we would be getting, and that we would be paid, per share/unit, based on 1Mhash of mining power.

what is the bonus????

^This. Yes. Coupons, not dividends.

There is no bonus.  Alexius89 suggested that he pay one because dividends were not what he expected and that ASICMiner paid so well this week.

TaT has a Midas touch.

Despite the expected drop in dividend the price is as strong as ever for these shares:

Quantity	|	Price
________	|	_____
2,053	|	฿0.007250

Congrats on meeting the bitcoin communities desire for easy to understand products.

Difficulty jump reaaallly saddened me though, one day after I buy the shares and get a nice dividend it drops 22%, that's why i asked earlier, I was hoping it was not the monstrous difficulty increase >:( .
Either way I love these assets  ;D

Another div payed, as you say, shame its not as high as before but the beauty is that these are still great returns and we know it'll be the same tomorrow (for now... the question is when to jump ship!  ;) ).

The divs are so high in fact I'm considering dropping at LOT more into this at least for the short term. Thanks TAT. :)

Anyone jumping ship is misinformed. TAT.VIRTUALMINE is worth way more then BTC0.072 with the divs so high. Thanks for another timely div, it seems to be getting earlier lol.

 :)

From the contract one agrees to when purchasing these bonds:
"Reserved Rights
Issuer reserves the following rights:
1. To issue additional shares as the market demands
2. To buy back shares at any time within the listed parameters
[...]

Buyback Rights
The issuer reserves the right to buy back bonds at a price equal to 110% of the highest price the asset was traded for over the prior 7 days or 200 times the value of the most recent dividend.
"

TAT will keep it going as long as possible. We'll see what happens to the difficulty. At a certain point price/MH will meet with asicminer. Until then I'm pretty happy collecting 3x more divs a week.

This security was just approved on BTCT, how many shares will be released initially?

And at what initial price? Thanks for your reply.

This is news to me! I'm actually travelling for a few days so I might need to hold off til I get back. We'll see though!

TAT, you found a big fan in me ;D


you just got 700BTC from the shareholders of the VIRTUALMINE. given, diffuculty won't raise, you have thereby enough money to pay them 180 days. what a pitty, that afterwards, you will have to throw in money each day (4btc each day, am i right?)

but hey ... what if difficulty might skyrocket and break through the magic petahash frontline? that might mean, that you will have to pay them 0.36 each day (alltogether, not each), or even less.

we are going to converge the daily income for 1MHs asymtotically to satoshis. You will pay them hundreds of years and still have >> 100 BTC profit.

That's such a good idea, that makes me jealous not having it on my own first  8)

If you have left over some coins after buying more AM shares, go to your holidays--they're well-deserved


_{EDIT: I see, todays total divident payout was around 3.25, making it work for 233 days, if it stayed constant.}
 

I am out at 0.0072499, made some profit....still nice investment right now...but for long time...we should see panic selling of those assets...so far the only thing can be bought for is AM....nothing else...

All true, buy back otherwise paying daily satoshis for hundreds of years. :D

So what happens if the difficulty skyrockets?  TAT is required by the contract to provide the equivalent of 1 Mh/s per bond of output in coupons.  If the network hashrate increases to the point where 1 Mh/s produces only around 100 satoshis per day, TAT is perfectly able to buy back the contracts at 200x that value per the terms of his contract.  While I do trust TAT and think he's a good manager, this risk is way, way too big to take on this one, sorry.  Especially if BFP does ship, the network hashing power will go through the roof.  TAT could actually make a profit in this case, assuming he buys back all the bonds at a fraction of the principal.

No, TAT will keep it going as long as it is profitable.  This is a bond, not a charity.  The second difficulty rises to the point where his AM shares don't pay out enough to cover the coupon payments, he'll buy back the bonds, most certainly at 200x the dividend, which will be quite small by that point, leaving investors with a loss (lets be honest, if AM shares aren't putting out, this 1 Mh/s bond isn't going to be putting out squat).

The 200x buyback clause is the reason this bond is extremely risky, and in a rational, informed market, the price differential between this bond and others such as JAH on BitFunder or PAJKA on BTC-TC should reflect that.

https://i.imgur.com/T4lM4dJ.png

hmm, not bad... looks like ASICMINER ;)

You mean PMB value will increase???????? I think right side to left....this correct.....

it's a joke - by rotating it instead of flipping on the Y axis, he's pointing out that the original complaining poster is just bloviating :)

The Bitcoin market keeps getting more interesting will watch too :)

Never mind, I just think long-time the PMB is worthless to buying..... What's your thoughts here? ?
I just selling out all my PMB assets.......

Long time is worthless but not yet this month.

this is funny.

1000 shares = 7.39 BTC
1000 shares daily div = .0322 BTC

Your buy back is 200 x div = 200 x .0322 = 6.44.

You could buy them back right now at a lower price than market!!!!

No thanks, but goodluck.

As I mentioned at least once before, it is not my goal to pull a fast one here. It would be silly for me to close the asset a few weeks after opening it.

Also that would still cost me 600+ btc to do, and there are much better ways for me to use that much coin.

TAT has better things to do with his reputation than to get 50 BTC by pulling a fast one.

It's true but I'm sceptical investing again because this seems to be the common thought. Is there no solution for this sell at 0.007, buyback at 0.00644 problem?

Afraid not. I consider this a high risk, high reward thing.

+1
be careful, you may catch fire ......super high risk, with super reward !

At 35M difficulty it will match the AM highest dividend, so as long as diff is less 35M this bond is the highest paying dividend, short term but still highly profitable if you know how.

What just happened.  Did someone just buy up every share that was on offer?  I was hoping to do a little more reading before I decided to buy or not, but there was never a buy opportunity.  Or am I missing something?

Yes sold out, only 20k were issued

I'm on my way back from a trip, so i'll have more details and an official thread for the btctc version of tat.vm later, but yes 20,000 shares have been released to start, more will be released later.

Great! and take care.

:) cant wait

It will be interesting to see what effect the newly-launched DMS.MINING asset has on the price of TAT.VIRTUALMINE, and vice-versa, as they are similar (not identical!) assets and both offered in the BTCT.co ecosystem.

TAT.VIRTUALMINE is the equivalent of 1 MH/s
DMS.MINING is the equivalent of 5 MH/s

with TAT at .0075, DMS.MINING should be at 5*(.0075) = .0375.

So either Mining is undervalued or TAT is overvalued if one were to take a simplistic view at the situation.

Or both are overvalued - but TAT more so.
Or both are undervalued - but DMS.MINING more so.

All other things being equal (which isn't necessarily the case - there's valid scenarios in which each is worth more than the other) DMS.MINING will trade lower anyway - as it has multiple sources of supply (anyone who buys DMS.PURCHASE can sell them) so doesn't have the enforced shortage of supply that all other similar(ish) securities have.

the thing is, you can't convert either to the other in the equivalent hashrate since they're both virtual assets... (you can't take 5 of TAT.VIRTUALMINE and convert to hashrate, then sell that hashrate for 1 DMS.MINING. You have to do it in BTC, which is not tied to the hashrate at all.) At least, not like how you could take a BFL device and trade it for an equivalent hashrate in Avalon chips, anyway. They're both really nothing more than 2nd-tier bonds* backed by the issuers' reputations and promises to repay. So value against each other can't be made against hashrate, it has to be compared using dividends.

I know, I know, it's splitting hairs since the dividends for both are exactly 5:1 to each other, identical to the hashrate ratio between them. But a better comparison would be "TAT.VIRTUALMINE pays x dividends per day, and DMS.MINING pays 5x dividends per day (ignoring the DMS.SELLING dividend for the sake of simplicity here, since the conversation is focusing on the mining divs anyway.)" Then you're left with rate of return on the original purchase price, along with a confidence multiplier based on the reputation and promise to repay of the issuer in regards to the actual dividends. When you boil it down, THAT'S the real comparison between the two issues - ability to repay and track record of repayment. (This appears to me to be flat between the two, by the way.) The wrench in the clockworks is the way the purchase price is worked out with DMS, since you can buy more at the lower static value the issuer sets if the market price of the derivatives start to approach TAT's value per hash. DMS.MINING is effectively building in a permanent undervalue situation compared to TAT's free market rate, effectively capping the rate of return for DMS "buy and hold" investors (UNLESS the "SELLING" derivative works a different way than I understand, but I'm pretty sure I understand it.) Kinda weird way to do it if you ask me, but it's an extremely interesting experiment at the very least.

^{*I don't mean "2nd-tier" as a slight by ANY means - I mean they are both backed by other company's assets, and not on their own assets. I own a very little of both primarily for the educational value.}

TAT,
Outstanding 20971 / 100000 Issued
971, is that the more will be released later shares?

Hope I'm not distracting the thread from all the BTC-TE/DMS.MINING talk, it really is quite interesting to see these things get discussed  :)
Had to interrupt and bring this up though. I'm not sure how long this has been up (it is the first time I have ever looked at the page) but if you click the link on TAT.VIRTUALMINE's Bitfunder profile page, where he mentions Asicminer's Hashrate charts- http://www.asicminercharts.com/live/ (http://www.asicminercharts.com/live/)
Right up at the tip top of the page, "Sponsored by TAT Investments"!!!!!!!!!!
If this is old news, ignore me. I'm just a poor newb  :-[ . But if this is new, Congratulations TAT!!!
Do you prefer to go by TAT? lol
Anyways, the point of my post is to say that it is good to see that you are building your name and reputation up even higher. I have seen (so far :P) from looking around on the forums that you seem to have a fair amount of respect for and among the community and often put in a honest, rational opinion. I hope you have a lot of success, and not only because I would be benefiting from it as well lol but because it seems like you deserve it.

Hey, thank you!!!

I've actually been helping out SMiGuel by sponsoring his chart website for about a month now. I also have a few other sites I have helped with coin, including www.coinflow.co, a great stock chart website that is in development, check it out!

Looks like that's going to be a useful site - thanks for the link.

I'm confused.. how do these dividends pay more than ASICMINER dividends if they are BACKED by AM shares?  Shouldn't they be the same?

Show your math plz.

They should be (and are) less - you need to be looking at ASICMINER in terms of their hashing power when comparing.  1 MH/S of ASICMINER shares pays a LOT more than 1 TAT.VM share (as it also gets incoem from sales of hardware).  It also COSTS a lot more - so no point directly comparing them as it's apples and oranges.

If ASICMINER sells a bunch of hardware and pays a massive dividend, TAT.VM won't get a bigger dividend.  If ASICMINER holds back most (or all) of a week's dividend to pay for development costs TAT.VM won't get a reduced dividend.  TAT.VM will get paid what its contract defines - and the ASICMINER shares are the visible proof that those commitments can be met.

For the cost of 1 asicminer you get ~385 virtualmine. 1 share Asicminer div is ~0.036 a week. 1 share Virtualmine is 0.00003223 a day. I'm sure I don't have to spell it out for you. Virtualmine is ~2.4x more a week. If you're look solely on dividends virtualmine is undervalue compare to asicminer.

Can we look at % annual return, rather than direct share comparison?  (sorry I thought this was obvious)
  This would be like me saying asicminer-PT pay more divdends than asicminer-TAT -- obviously not true, as their dividend return % should be the same.   

Lets talk strictly % return please..

% annual return is hard to predict for both of them, because they are different things. AM is mining + re-investment + sales. TAT.VM is income per hash. So over the long term, AM dividends will not drop as fast as the TAT.VM dividends. TAT.VM dividends will fall when difficulty rises. AM dividends will fall when they can't deploy enough new hash power to make up for difficulty increases or when their sales drop.

I have 1250 shares of VIRTUALMINER.
That is 8.75 btc investment for .04BTC/day, or .28BTC/week, or 14.56BTC/year.

This looks like a much larger dividend return annually than AM.

where did i mess up

oh okay..

Here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=223442.msg2405717#msg2405717) is where.

You can't compare the VM bonds to AM shares in the same way because TAT's VM is functionally a loan with repayment terms dictated by the contract, while AM's output is measured against the company hashrate.  In short - TAT chose what coupon rate to pay his bondholders ahead of time in a forward contract while AM's running dividend is determined by the week's block output.

This is why you can't make an apples-to-apples comparison of bonds and stocks.  One is an equity whose returns are determined by market production/mining conditions and the other is simply a non-expiring forward contract.  The VM bonds aren't 'backed' by TAT's AM shares; the AM shares are just the course of revenue he's using to pay the bondholders.  The bondholders only have a claim to the equity in the AM shares if TAT's cash flows hit zero and he's forced to sell AM shares to pay his contract-mandated coupons.

Just bought a few bonds - lost a little bitcoin as I didnt know how to use a share option correctly lol

I think this is the best analysis I've seen of this security. There's always the risk of TAT 'running with the money' so to say, but the Div/BTC beats ASICMiner's best Div so far (with ASICM valued at 2.9 currently) up to 50M difficulty

why are people trying to ditch shares sub ipo righ now ? i dont know why people would do that unless its the dot com crash in the 90s

No clue. Cheaper shares for the rest of us.

This is normal. In general, if the difficulty goes up, the dividends will be lower and the shares will be worth less. The price is falling because the difficulty is rising.

If thats the case then these shares are going to pay even more dividend/cost compare to asicminer.

Are there no divs today?

Thank you for reminding me, I got distracted by other exciting things. I need to keep bugging Ukto to get dividend scheduling added as a feature...

can you set a reminder on your phone?   :-\

I don't have a phone.

Damn.. do you have a computer?

sadly no computer either :(

Please stop interrupting TAT so he can finish his slide rule calculations and get the dividends out.   ;D

Actually, I just use all my cats to count.

In all seriousness, I obviously do my best to make you guys happy, and payouts are usually pretty consistent.

But in order to manage expectations, I will remind you that I am indeed human and that things happen on some days that don't happen on others. One day, it might even take me 24 hours to pay out. The good news is that we would all survive, even if such a horrible thing were to occur.

BitFunder has plans to allow scheduling of payouts, which should mostly solve this issue, but I reserve the right to forget to schedule a dividend in the event I exhibit human behaviors again in the future.

He's a fallible human, get him!

I've been saving my pitchfork for this very moment!

That sounds fun and I'm not even in the Virtual Mine Launch the pickaxes XD

TAT's smart.  Won't get tracked 24/7 by the US government this way.  Or some other government.

it is true the shares will be worth less as dividends are reduced over time. but dividends have been the same all week, so i dont think it applies to the recent dip.

As I understand it - divs will be constant until the next difficulty change (mid-next week I believe).  Then, they should be constant until the next difficulty change (2 weeks later)

Yes and even with the difficulty increase virtualmine will pay more dividends/btc then asicminer

I highly doubt this, since each share is 'equivalent to 1MH/s'.

3BTC AM
0.007 virtualmine
1 asicminer share=428 virtualmine
1 AM=0.036/week
428 Virtualmine=0.09656108/7days

Even with a difficulty increase it will still outperform AM in dividends.

3 BTC will buy 420 shares of VM and 1 share of ASICMINER. ASICMINER is giving about .035btc/week, and the VM would give you 420 * .00003223 * .8 (20% difficulty increase) * 7 days = 0.0758 BTC/week.

Hmm, based on the current dividend rate, it's a 230 or so day ROI (assuming no difficulty increases -- which we already know is false). I'm wondering why people are still buying into this.

Is there something I'm missing? If the dividends are already at 230 day ROI, and are going down every week or two... I don't see it breaking even for a couple years if it does at all.

Keep in mind the difficulty change is defined in the code as every 2016 blocks, which means that in a time of rapidly rising difficulty, the next difficulty shift can happen quicker than 14 days, because the blocks are being solved faster than every 10 minutes.  For example, I believe the most recent difficulty jump of 28% happened in a time period a few hours shy of 12 days.

The thing you're missing is, try to find anything else that gives you a better deal. If you try mining yourself you'll have to deal with preorders that may or may not come. You can buy AM USB or Blades which is cheaper than these shares but you'll have to keep it running for a while at your own expense. How about investing in AM shares? They won't pay nearly as much in div/cost for a long time from what it seems. The BTC investing market is the most profitable and, if you want, you can go on wall street and do stocks with a 7% return a year.

Right now, even with difficulty increase, we are getting over 10% a month. Find anything in the world that will give you over 10% a month and I'll be glad to follow you into it.

EDIT: I do realize that starting a business might be a good idea depending on the business. I get to sit on my ass and get 10% a month.

Well, the issue is that with the quickly rising hash-rates, it's going to become less and less valuable. While it may be 10% this month, next month it could be 3%, then 0.1%, etc.

I'm mostly trying to figure out if I should jump in on this now or just keep the BTC (based on number crunching I don't see the dividends paying off based on the current stock prices). I could be wrong, of course.

It will definitely not drop to 3% next month. In order for that to happen difficulty will have to increase to 72,000,000. I'd say you don't to worry about that for a good 7 months if it increase 20% each cycle.

Of course you can always mine using the USB miners and resell them on ebay at a later date.

mmm, I may jump in on this then. It's much cheaper to get into than USB miners, and without having to do any extra work. Was just afraid of getting in on it and never seeing the full ROI, :p.

You can always sell it at anytime. I think its easier to sell these than it is for physical miners. I do consider these to be undervalue for the dividends it pays out compare to everything else.

The virtualmine in BTC-TC needs love. I'd buy those shares but don't have to BTC till next week.

To make these purchases, what do we do? Just transfer funds over to the site and then set up a buy order?

And how are dividends handled? Sent directly to us or to our stock exchange account?

Create an account with BTC-TC and transfer funds over. Go to the TAT.Virtualmine and buy it. The IPO is 0.007. The dividends are sent to your wallet on the exchange.

https://btct.co/security/TAT.VIRTUALMINE

Awesome. Thanks for the clear explanation! That was another fear: tons of micropayments as a result, :p.

I feel that this is the biggest issue that people don't realize about VM. The dividend will get smaller, but the price of the bond will also fluctuate based on the expected dividend!

So many people here are calculating ROI as if the price could never drop below the IPO price...

Even with difficulty calculated it will still outperform AM shares.

boyohi,

It is important to include the price of the shares in your computation. If the price of a share of VM drops by 0.0001 over a week while AM remains constant, then both will have the same return.

If the price of VM drops to .0001 then buying them at the price you'll have 188x the dividends of AM in a week. It wont drop to that low.

I meant drops by 0.0001, not drops to 0.0001. If VM drops, from 0.0070 to 0.0069, for example, then your 420 shares have lost a total of 0.0420 BTC, which exceeds the difference between the 0.035 BTC from AM and 0.0758 BTC from VM.

true but i don't see it dropping .0001 every week anytime soon. I'm just happy making .25btc a day.

I expect the market price to drop faster than that, in anticipation of upcoming increases in mining difficulty.

You lost me here. You're saying that as the dividends drop, the price probably will as well. That makes it an even worse investment, wouldn't it? Being that you can't even sell it for what you bought it for?

This is the why you not only have to research into your investments, but also keep an eye on them.
The price/share can (and I think will) still go up since, as everyone has pointed out, it is currently outperforming most other dividend style investments. I am not the creator of this, TAT is, but if I was going to start this fund I would have placed the IPO price at below what I thought it was actually worth(which I think he did.) This just makes it even more likely that the market would take notice and sweep them up quickly.
If you are worried about the price going down, just make sure you keep an eye on the prices so it doesn't go under what you consider to be your limit for the dividends you will be receiving.
I'm not going to look up current prices&dividends and do the math, because I am tired ;) but if you have received enough through dividends to make up for the price drop and you are still making decent profit then it is a good investment.
Don't forget that by keeping an eye on it, you can sell a couple of shares when the price is up and buy when they are a little lower to increase your overall holdings.
In my opinion, a lot of people using the term ROI are used to using the math for calculating hardware profitability. While there are a lot of similarities in the math, some things have to be looked at a little different.

So to my original statement (tl;dr) Do research & watch what your money is doing. Math is fun when it's profit =)

*Edit before anyone gets mad- I am not saying any specific post or person here is calculating ROI wrong, this is just the feeling I have gotten in multiple places around the forum on multiple subjects. My point is to be careful and make sure your math is logical and includes all the factors you can think to include (and try to include room for error.)

I've got ya now. I'm new to stocks so basically the trick is to watch it carefully and react when the time is right.

That is a big part of it yes, but also don't give in to emotions and overreact. This is the hardest part of most trading =)
I haven't found any really good sources yet that talk about trading in bitcoins or bitcoin related stocks, but most of the things you learn about other stock exchanges, as well as forex markets can be a big help. The bitcoin market is still very young though, so some crazy things can and do still happen.
If anyone knows some good places to research please do share them, maybe even in a new thread as to not clog this one with unrelated topics.

I've had some of this asset since the IPO.  Although the price is fluctuating, as of today, if it sells at over .0065857, I've made a profit, after factoring in dividends.  At this point, as long as I'm not desperate to sell, I come out ahead.  The longer I hold it, the more I come out ahead.

I'd love resources as well. And thanks a lot for your help, Queezy, :). You're awesome!

Awww, Thank you =)
My first official compliment. =)

lol, I'm glad it came from me then, :p. Bookmark that comment and anytime you have a bad day, reflect on it!

Another great point to bring up about TAT.VM is the DAILY dividends. To me this is the greatest part.
I try to think of most of my investments in terms of how well i can compound the gains, to increase them even faster. If you don't know much about compounding interest and the like, I would suggest doing a quick google search and read up on it for 3-5 minutes. Most people who have never heard of it(which is actually higher than I realized) are astonished at the difference it can make. And it is not a complicated idea, just something a lot don't realize until they are told about it.

See, that's not necessarily true. If the price stays above.0065, yes, you come out ahead. However, what if the market rate drops and you can only sell for .006? Or .004? I could be tomorrow or in three months, but you have to take in the bind market price as well.

That is why it's called an investment and not "Free Money!!" lol
The point I and I think Lorren was trying to make is that profit has already been made. Yes, you have to worry about difficulty going up, rewards going down, share price fluctuation, and many other details. But the longer it is held, the less you have essentially paid for it because of the funds you have received back through dividends.

If it happens tomorrow, I look to see if I have any available funds lying around in my account to buy more ;-).  Since I get daily dividends, the amount in my account goes up every day.

There's always a chance that you'll lose your money, with any of these investments.  For that reason, it's a good idea not to have all of your money in one place (I currently have a little bit invested in 4 places).  At this point, I could lose a bit of money and still come out ahead, as I've made a 25% return since I started trading last month.

Difficulty is not so high at the moment that dividends are going to shrink like crazy on the next change.  As long as people are still getting paid, most are not going to value their investment that low, that quickly.  While some might, the majority probably won't.  That's not saying that it won't go down a bit, but overall, those that are fearful and bail at a low price will have their shares picked up by people looking for a bargain.  If you panic sell, then you probably will lose money.

For the share price, this is still paying pretty good divs.  While the share price is 10X the cost of AMC, for example, just ONE of its divs is 40 times what their last div paid.  TAT.Asicminer is paying about 10X the VM's daily divs per week, which amounts to 1.4 times the amount that VirtualMiner costs, at 4x the cost (although I do have shares in both of them).  So at this point, it's a pretty good deal.  Later on, it might not be so much.  You do have to pay attention though, because there is the chance to lose a lot more if you don't stay on top of it.

If you like daily div then buy some at DMS.MINING, 5MH/s buying price right now is 0.02999, so 1Mh/s is only 0.005998, same daily dividend.
Hurry buy now!... but wait! there's more, DMS.SELLING, DMS.PURCHASE check them out. :D

Except DMS.MINING doesn't work the same, and buyers better make sure they understand what they're buying in either case before jumping in.

Can you please explain this a little real quick, what makes them different?

DMS assets cannot be explained quickly, you can read the asset descriptions (it's a set of 3), or you can pm Deprived though.

EDIT: This is a TAT.VM thread after all, I try not to jump in on his thread just the same.

Got it. Thanks! Hopefully this is a bit more on-topic then... are "TAT" and "DMS" acronyms that are not specific to just the Bitcoin world/cryptostocks?

They are ticker tags meant to let people know who is running them. Any asset I release will have TAT. on it, so you know it's me!

Ohhh, does this mean that nobody else is allowed to use that tag then? Ex. is it basically "locked" to you?

That is correct, however, it should be noted that I only trade on BTCT.co, Bitfunder.com, and HavelockInvestments.com currently. So if you see that tag elsewhere, it might not be me.

Cool. Thanks for clarifying this!

>:] TAT.MiningASICVirtual I'm making this so I can be like those Chinese knockoff brands, Buckstar coffee.

Pretty sure it would be more like "Starbutts Coffee," lol

TAThashing fund  All TAT's under one coffee house :)

260?
Isn't that should be 2600?
Ok, never mind ;) Bitfunder eats zeros ;)

UPDATE

Due to ASICMINER's decline in hashing for several days now, I am pausing any new issuance of TAT.VIRTUALMINER units, and I will begin to find alternate backing for the hashes AM has taken offline.

Since it is likely that this is a temporary lull in hashrate from AM, I will not be securing new backing aggressively, but I will be buying other hashing assets at a modest pace until AM gets back up to a speed that covers TAT.VM's hashes, or I until I buy enough alternate hashes to exceed what is required for backing TAT.VM.

Any alternate hashing that is purchased will likely be held permanently as backing for TAT.VM hashes.

Once the dust has settled, I will issue a new TRANSPARENCY REPORT, showing all holdings used as backing, etc.

Thanks!

Does this mean that the BTC/share should go up from where it is now instead of continuing down, or am I misunderstanding what you mean?

Very professional, thank you

It probably won't affect things much on BTCT.co. If I issue new units anywhere, it can slow price growth or depress the price. However, the volume hasn't been that high on BTCT.co, so the price never was able to get as high as on BitFunder, and thus I have not issued nearly as many.

Ohh, my question was in relation to the dividends (sorry I didn't specify).

The only thing that affects dividends is the current mining difficulty. My work to secure additional backing is unrelated. The backing just serves as additional insurance that dividends will get paid reliably.

Think what he was asking is whether ASICMINER's hashing reducing would affect difficulty - and hence dividends.  Answer to that is if ASICMINER's hashing stays low then difficulty will increase by less than had that hashing power been working.  Whether that's enough for difficulty to actually fall is debatable - at present, if hashing doesn't rise from other sources (and ASICMINER's hash-rate stays depressed), next difficulty change would be a miniscule rise and so a tiny drop in dividend/day.  Without knowing WHY ASICMINER's hash-rate has fallen there's no way to know how long it will stay low - and whether there's any likelihood of it falling further. 

Most reasons why ASICMINER hashing power has dropped would only generate a short-term drop -e.g. relocating or upgrading some equipment, but there are some possible reasons that could lead to a greater reduction - e.g. chips failing or enforcement action against them.  The short-term ones seem the most likely to me.

A .003 print on BTCT.co

Not for widows or orphans, this one eh?

I just want to take a few minutes to address how some people (well, one very persistent person) are asking me about why TAT.VM market price has fallen this week. This person is pretty angry about this, threatening so besmirch my name unless I buy back his shares. After 2 hours of late-night "discussion", I nearly considered it, just so I could go to sleep...

In summary:

1. Difficulty has risen by greater than 20% two times in a row now. I'm not sure if that's a record, but it's certainly much faster than anything I can recall this year. When difficulty rises, the dividend goes down, and thus the fundamental value of pretty much ALL mining assets go down.

2. The market has a new, extremely low-priced competitor. I suspect many people have sold off their TAT.VM at a psuedo-loss in order to buy cheaper assets elsewhere. Really, this is probably the biggest factor. However, this is the nature of being in a competitive market. If demand is high, others come in and undercut you if they can.

3. I have spelled out very clearly how this asset works. It, like pretty much all bitcoin investments, is high risk. Trading this asset properly is all about timing. Buy at the right time, hold for the right amount of time, sell at the right time. Many, many shareholders have played this asset to success.

This asset states its purpose very plainly in the description:


If you buy this because you want to simulate mining, and find TAT.VM's price for 1mh/s to be acceptable, great. But if difficulty spikes cause devaluation, or if new competitors in the asset or mining market spur selloffs, and your main concern is share price, then you need to stay savvy. The market price of TAT.VM held quite remarkably considering the recent diff changes, but the new assets on the market really pulled things downward.

In closing, please understand what you are buying when you buy bitcoin assets. I still get people asking me how dividends are determined even though the formula is already listed.

TAT.VM is virtual hashes, nothing more, nothing less. I will continue to deliver dividends on those hashes, in accordance to the contract. It is up to the trader to know whether it is right for them, and how/when to trade it.

So how goes the aggressive search for backing.. Asicminer share prices are back and goin up while our prices are dropping like a stone..

That is TATs hedge ;)

Thank Deprived for destroying another PMB.

There was a hedge against the prices dropping imo?? shares with asicminer and what not.. anyways so can we expect a recovery or should we just abandon ship  :(

There is no hedge against prices dropping. Assests owned by TAT for this fund are to pay for daily dividends. The ASICMiner shares are there to ensure that TAT.VirtualMine has enough hashing power behind it. The asset is not an ASICMiner PT, so any change in value or dividends from AM won't affect the price or value of TAT.VIRTUALMINE.

The only thing that determines the market price of the asset is the market, supply and demand. And with an increasing difficulty, the dividends go down and therefore people are willing to pay less for the asset.

It's all very transparent.

There are two other values that can be found in the contract under buyback rights.

Personally I wonder what happens if TAT fails to pay out a coupon.

Buyback rights are rights that TAT has. If he decides, for whatever reason, that he doesn't want to operate the fund anymore, he can buy shares back at 110% of the most highest trade price in the last week or at 200 times the most recent dividend (his choice, so that means whichever is lower).

There is no guarantee that a buyback will occur, nor is there an option for an asset holder to enforce such a buyback. The right lies solely with the issuer.

The same thing that would happen with any other asset that fails to deliver on its promises, confidence drops and so will prices. Scam accusations will be made.

By buying this asset, you put trust in TAT to honour the terms of the contract. With any asset, you should only buy it if you trust the issuer not to run with your funds.

Not much confidence in the asset out there.. TAT needs to do something to save this asset or else its goin down.. hard..

EDIT: All mining of all kinds are currently depreciating. Hardware loses value when better hardware is made and difficulty goes up also. There is nothing to "save" it in that sense. However, this will NOT affect my ability to pay the daily coupons, and you can expect to get the payouts for the hashes you bought as detailed in the contract.

Ok I did a little math. At the current difficulty and with the current dividend, it will take IPO buyers 76 days to recoup the losses they have sustained from the IPO price.

Oh well, live and learn :)

That's kinda the problem when you offer investments that are zero sum games - either you make a profit (and piss off your investors who made a loss), or you make a loss (but your investors make a profit).

looks like its the first case here.. investors seem pissed.. and the indifferent attitude of TAT isnt helping either..

I wouldnt say indifferent. The market is doing its thing, there isnt really anything he can do.

He can assure his investors a higher dividend.. take a chip out from his profits from asicminer and try build up the confidence in the market.. thats would i would have done if i really cared about the asset and the people who put their trust in him..
All he would do is show the agreement in bold.. thats indifference my brother..

That is ridiculous. The exact conditions of the bond were clear right from the start. Anyone who expects consolation prizes or goodwill gifts shouldn't go anywhere near stocks, bonds or money business in general.

Thanks Thief You have just lost me money. I am selling your asicminer pt shares, and I am not doing business with you again.

I guess you would also complain to an ASIC manufacturer if the ASIC you bought starts to yield less returns due to increase in difficulty?

This asset works the same as mining BTC yourself. You buy something that produces periodic mining yields, depending on the difficulty and you may resell it for whatever the market is willing to pay.

If you don't take into account the risk of increased difficulty and its effect on dividend and asset-price, you have only yourself to blame. The terms of this asset are extremely clear and without unnecessary technical jargon. And any small amount of research into BTC mining would've revealed the strong upward trend of difficulty and the corresponding downward trend of yields.

It sounds like you were expecting an infinite stream of constant payments out of this, while at any point being able to step out and collect your profits. Investments don't work that way.

This asset is rigged from the start, while it is not illegal for him to do this, and it is not scamming, he is getting money from investors who believed in his name.

I am no longer doing any business with him.

You mean investors that don't read the contract and/or are not capable of independent thought?

That's ridiculous. Investors simply buy a 1mh/s bond. With rising difficulty dividends will shrink, similarly will bond prices. Investors who don't understand this, shouldn't invest. Or ask Asicminer to stop mining for a few weeks.

Look there are some people where if I invest with them, I make money. For example, MP.

Now ThickAsTheives is one that will screw you over and screw his reputation over.

Is getting raped by my ex my fault too?

My 2 cents: avoid this dishonorable thief.

well we knew about the yield per bond but we did not expect the share prices to drop.. and that has nothing to do with difficulty..

If dividend goes down, the bond prices will as well to maintain the same yield for new investors. Noone pays 0.007 for the bond if dividend is cut down 20, 30 oder 40%

ThickAsThieves:

YOU have made profit from my loss. Yes, YOU. Nobody else did, if I lose a bitcoin YOU PROFITED ONE BITCOIN.

I demand a refund of my shares at the IPO price. You do not pay anything, you just have to give your profit back!

Now, this would be unreasonable if we both made profit. But only you made profit - it is only possible for you and only you to gain!

But at what rate?? since yesterday they have dropped down from 0.0057 to 0.0045.. thats huge.. the only thing is that TAT doesnt seem to care about saving this asset at all.. any kid of positive reinforcement would surely help stabilise the situation

When the price of this drops, this thief can buy back for cheaper. So it is in his interest to drop the price.

Please leave negative feedback for thickasthieves! I just did. Make him regret profiting from his investors. This is wrong.

You know thats not gonna happen.. he wont part with his profits would he..

Except that the price of the share is linked to its yield. If something makes me twice the amount of money per share, I will be willing to pay twice the price for it. And vice versa, if the yield of an investment goes down by a certain amount, the price should go down as well.

Because using your logic, you expected the price of the share to stay the same even if years from now the difficulty is 100x as high and the dividend you get is almost nothing? Why would anyone purchase that share for the original price at that time?

Again, when you invest you're supposed to put a little bit of thought into where you stick your money in. And, to quote Deprived, there are no good or bad investments, only investments that are good or bad for the price. TAT.VIRTUALMINE is a good investment for some price-range. The question an investor should ask is: For what price-range? The DMS-securities by Deprived have been made as something of an experiment to see what people think the right price-range should be for a PMB.

Dont talk bullshit.. we are not talking about a month or a year.. the time frame is 2 freakin days..

Did you really put 225 BTC (per your feedback for TAT) into Virtualmine? It certainly is unfortunate you lost money, but if you invested that amount then you really ought to learn to diversify better.

Since this person (and I believe at least one other sock of his) seems to be starting a smear campaign, I'm going to try and comment on this once only.

Every asset I offer is as transparent as I can make it, more so than most issuers. I make good on every promise I make. My reputation is important to me, but I will not play games with trolls.

This holder is upset that a mining bond is no longer worth what it was during IPO. Plain and simple. It appears he sold out and moved on to the next cheapest one anyway, so it's likely he'll be yelling at Deprived in a couple weeks too. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228327.msg2548895#msg2548895 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228327.msg2548895#msg2548895)

Carry on, and apologies for this distraction.

In the same way you could complain about Asicminer selling their USB sticks for 2 BTC.

If someone does not trust TAT to continue his/her business the maximum price is 0.0052 BTC at current difficulty. Other people may value it higher.

Now theres no smear from my side.. i trusted you TAT thats why i bought into this .. i am not calling you a cheat or scammer.. no..i am not a troll.. i just want to say we have already had our loss.. it wouldnt be too hard on you to atleast help us recover some of our loses from your profits..

no need to act like idiots.. i am sure we can all work things out in a civilised manner without the trolling..

[/quote]

If someone does not trust TAT to continue his/her business the maximum price is 0.0052 BTC at current difficulty. Other people may value it higher.


[/quote]

Would love to sell off at that rate.. but its approaching 0.0045 at the moment.. and its losing out fast.. and TAT is doing nothing.. and that has hurt me the most.. maybe i was naive in thinking someone would help out others at the cost of some profit..

I'm beginning to think there should be some kind of IQ test before anyone is allowed to do investments.

I just noticed that thief has left me negative feedback.

This is an abuse of the feedback system, he is trying to get me to remove my feedback.

I made a thread about this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240552

Well what do you expect if you go on bitchin around at every forum..  :-\

share prices are dropping like stone.. he doesnt bother replien back.. people lose money.. TAT accuses a guy of bein a sock.. Guy starts bitchin.. TAT leaves negative feedback..

How is it that someone bought 700 shares at 0.004560 and mu order not got filled??  ???

1. People (or singular person with multiple accounts, the jury is still out on that one) don't read or understand the details of this asset.
2. People lose BTC because of point 1.
3. People go on to slander TAT in an attempt to get him to repay their losses. Including leaving negative feedback for TAT.
4. TAT responds to the negative feedback by giving his own negative feedback.

Bitcoinplay attempted to blackmail TAT into buying back his shares at IPO price or he would slander TAT on the forums. TAT didnt give in to the demands so bitcoinplay is carrying out his threat and badmouthing him all around the place. TAT rightly left that feedback so others know he will try to blackmail people if he doesnt get what he wants.

To be honest, TAT is nowhere near to scammer, eventhough he probably made this bond purely on getting fast BTC to get more shares of AM in sight of completing 5k for a board seat. He still did this so people would actually profit on this marginally. But ofcourse you are gambling in a way on whatever BFL,AVALON etc starts shipping their products and hammering the difficulty.
So whoever is crying about this now is a fool, you should do your homework properly!

I appreciate the support guys, you have no idea.

I spent literally 4 hours trying to reason with this guy via chat. It all boils down to him wanting special treatment to erase his risks.

My wife just said to me, "Well if you don't have haters, you haven't made it, have you?" Heh.

TAT can you atleast reply to the PM i sent you.. not too much of a hassle...

A moderator could probably confirm that I have never posted from any account but this one. I don't have time to play socking games.

ThickAsThieves is now outright lying - he is making up an imaginary user that have talked to him on IRC for 4 hours?!??

I never used IRC in my life!

Why cant you just reply to a PM man.. seriously..  :(

Why pm, ask what you wanna ask right here. I have nothing to hide.

Fine.. my exact message..
CAn you please buy back my shares.. i dont want to be a part of all this trolling and idiocy.. i have 600 shares.. please buy back at 0.005 per share.

Happy??

Unfortunately, I can't do that, even if I wanted to. It sets a horrible precedent, and makes me a target for harassment in the future.

Answer this! This is important because TAT is now making up things that never happened. It very much casts his character in the true light!

Of course you can do that.. you just have to sacrifice your profits that you made from US!

I am assuming that all of these accounts harassing me today are the same person that harassed me in IRC earlier. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. If I am, I apologize, but I do have the chat logs, and I wil provide them to any moderator that requires them for any kind of action.

Well.. i am sorry to hear that.. this was my first investment in life and that too in BTC.. i think it was wrong on my part to hope that an issuer would try to keep his asset valuable and keep the trust.. you are right on your part too thats why i sent a PM..

In the context of issuing and managing shares, TAT appears to be fully complying with what was offered. Don't know if its a good example, but Mark Z had/has no powers to support the price of the FB IPO, and nor should he be able to. Look how many, and how much smart money got it initially wrong. So people should not be beating themselves up too much. And at the same time, don't let what an issuer and/or forum post says, be the sole reason you decide to participate.   

These type of shares/bonds are essentially based on math. If the math don't work FOR YOU, the math don't work.

Wow im really amazed with ppl whining to TAT about the bond price, it is clear to me that who ever does either didnt read the contract or didnt even come close to understanding it...
this is a bond not a share TAT has no moral obligation to keep bond price up as a president in a company would to the share holders (and even then the board of a company cant be held financialy responsible in case of failure)

i lost some on mining bonds too didnt expect this sharp decline in price but thats how it goes, the terms are very clear from the start...

Agreed.. As somebody said Deprived ruined another pretty amazing pmb..

I don't want to post off-topic in TAT's thread about Deprived. We can continue this discussion in Deprived's thread or via PM.
I'm thankful for Deprived's project, thread, and information in general, it helped me understand a lot about estimating a mining profit and difficulty rise.

Anyway, if you are holding VIRTUALMINE, or thinking about buying it, you should check this new thread calculating the possible profits: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240556.0 (or do the math youselfs).

Best to view Deprived as a very astute ally. Most do for good reason.

While I acknowledge that Deprived has had influence, I agree with you and totally respect Deprived.

My scam accuser gets caught scamming (bonus, more sockies!): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240541.msg2550068#msg2550068 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240541.msg2550068#msg2550068)

Is shit hitting the fan already?

Write this down - ALL perpetual mining "bonds" that pay based on FIXED Mh are turds and are guaranteed to lose their value.
Buy "turds" ONLY if you believe that difficulty is going to drop.

All perpetual mining bonds are expected to lose their value in the long term, given the expectation that difficulty will continue to rise over the long term.

But they are bets on how fast difficulty will rise, and it is possible to buy them for less than their future value.

I had post a article a month before in this forum...that trying to tell people do not buying any PMB ,and provides very clear calculation with it.

Some people was argue with me ,saying I am stupid do not understand what PMB it is .how ever this guy called Frunmp is now disappear in this forum.

PMBs issuers isn't doing anything wrong, but The things is PMBs itself is not a wise decision when the market being hit by new technology.

Like CPU change To GPU....during the period of switching , no one should buying any PMBs contracts.

I have personally loss around 10 BTC on those contracts, what I want to say is the issuers of PMBs are not doing anything wrong ,they just exploit the contracts and take advantage over those people who do not has certain knowledge to analysis what they are buying.

 

I would be fascinated to learn of the cases where someone has made a capital gain on Mining Bonds.  Please do share the numerous examples that must exist.

Issuing the bonds doesn't count!

But tell me, do you actually disagree with anything I actually did write?

EskimoBob, you can't just say they are turds, and leave it at that. You have to explain or nobody will listen to you.

Anyone that wants to mine or wants to buy a PMB (which is not really a bond, btw) must understand the following. The value of a PMB depends on the dividends that it pays and the dividends depend on the difficulty.

Here is how the dividends are computed:


The dividend per block for 1Mh/s at the current difficulty is 0.00000018 BTC.

The total dividend for 2016 blocks (the number of blocks at each difficulty) at the current difficulty is 2016 times that, or 0.00036406 BTC. I'm going to call this D. The total amount of dividends received (D_T) is simply the sum of all the dividends paid forever:


Now, we know that the difficulty continues to rise because more people are mining and technology advances. Every time the difficulty rises, the dividend falls by the same amount. In other words, if the new difficulty is 20% higher, then the new dividend about 20% lower (actually it is multiplied by 1/1.2, or 0.83).

Let's pretend that the difficulty rises 20% every change. That is,


So,


Luckily, Gauss (at the age of 4, believe it or not) figured out a simple formula for computing this value:


So there you have it. If the difficulty increases by 20% every time, a 1 Mh/s PMB will pay up to 0.00218436 BTC in dividends, and you will lose money if you pay more than 0.00218436 BTC for it.

The general equation for determining how much a PMB is going to pay is this:

Nobody knows what the difficulty is going to be, so lets make a table of possible values for a 1 Mh/s PMB at the current difficulty.

Expected Increase	| Total Dividends
30%	0.00157759
20%	0.00218436
10%	0.00400466
7%	0.00556492
2% (Moore's Law)	0.01856706
0%	infinite

EskimoBob and others are wrong. You can see that it is possible to make money from a PMB if you buy it at the right price. So, figure out what you think the difficulty will rise by every 2 weeks over the next several months, and don't pay more than the dividends you will receive.

Your analysis is incorrect.

You fail to include a time value of money for the present value of the bonds.  Even at negative difficulty growth, the value of the income stream from mining is finite.

Given the risks the discount rate for the time value of money needs to be very high - at least 30% in my opinion.

Risks taken by buying a mining bond include
Failure of bitcoin protocol
Exchange rate risk
default risk by operator

Anyone with basic understanding of the situation will realize that the only way a mining bond would be profitable is if it is priced lower than the cost of equivalent mining hardware.  Ultimately, sellers of mining bonds are exploiting people ignorant of the economics of bitcoin.  The result is a guaranteed loss for the buyers.

Worse, many of these buyers will project their experience onto bitcoin itself, and paint the entire concept as a scam.

Last one ...

Currently, someone is bidding 0.003903 BTC for TAT.VIRTUALMINER on BTC-TC. That person believes that the difficulty will increase (on average) by less than 10.3% every 2 weeks because if it increases at a faster rate he will lose money.

When TAT.VIRTUALMINER was first offered on BTC-TC, the difficulty was 15,605,633 and one share paid 0.00045117 total every two weeks. A person buying a share at 0.007 BTC believed that the difficulty would increase (on average) by 6.9% because the person would lose money if it rose faster than that.

It looks like the people that bought at 0.007 BTC may have made a big mistake because the difficulty has been rising at 20%, not 6.9%. On the other hand, if the difficulty stops rising, then they still can make money on their investment.

Are... are you adding cash flows from different time periods?  motherofgod.jpg

I purposefully left out present value and risk because it complicates an already complicated subject. If you want to explain it all in detail, please be my guest.

You are spouting off that EskimoBob is wrong, but you don't want to consider present value or risk?

It's is much better to be silent and assumed a fool, than to speak up and prove it.  In the future, you should try to keep quiet.

You missed where he said 'purposefully' - he's intentionally trying to get people to overvalue securities by leaving out a fundamental part of the analysis.  Scammer tag time!

Alright, I interpreted his statement as saying that PMBs are guaranteed to lose money. He didn't say that. He is not wrong.

“He has a right to criticize, who has a heart to help.”
― Abraham Lincoln

Oh and BTW, no, I am not. I am computing the present value of a perpetual bond using the rate of increase in difficulty as the discount rate.

odolvlobo, well written stuff but not sure, why you think I am wrong. Yes, you are correct, I need to explain more and not just say that PMB are turds. I have actually explained this multiple times and kept the terminology as simple as possible. Even when GLBSE was around. Every perpetual bond was losing money back then too and guess what, people kept dumping coins in to this garbage.

PMB are not bonds. Period. Bond is a loan with fixed payment, regardless what the price is at the market (hence the different yield calculations like YTM etc) 
There are instruments like Floating Rate Notes (FRNs) with floating rate but even those have part of the payment rate (quoted spread) fixed.
FRNs are also called floaters and you know what "floater" means in slang. This is how PMB became known as "turds" long time ago.

Who ever invented those nasty perpetual mining turds, was either a clueless fuck, who did not understand how bad it is for the investors or, he knew exactly! what it is and abused the nonexisting investing experience of BTC enthusiasts. PMB are dressed up nice indeed. ;)

Let me break it down for ya'll so you can understand wtf you get yourself in to.

Lets say we have 2 guys. A and B. A wants to buy a bike so he can deliver newspapers. He ask you (B) for a loan. Once more, bond is a loan and principal investment must be returned.
 
He tells you:
1) Give me a loan but I have no obligation to pay you back what you gave me or in other words - I will stretch this loan out forever and will not guarantee you get back you money. I'll try to do my best so it won't happen.

2) I will make weekly (or what ever) payments but those payments are not fixed and can float up or down, depending how many papers I managed to deliver riding this bike. Bike I bought with your money. BTW. if I say home and sleep, you get nothing.

3) The road is one way and endless.  It's mostly up the hill pedaling. Higher I get, slower I move and less papers deliver. BTW, there will be fewer and fewer houses too. One more thing... I'll deduct the cost of sandwiches and water from the earnings and keep some of the earned coin for my self.

Now, do you lend me the money to buy that bike?

Yes, if lending you 1 BTC will produce me 0.2 BTC this week and 0.18 BTC next week, etc. PMBs (or PMTs) can be profitable if the price is low enough, but so far no PMB on the market (not even DMS.MINING) is.

I believe that TAT is not issueing bonds at a 'fair' market price.

The 'fair' price is stated under the Buyback rights why else would this paragraph have any purpose.

When issueing new bonds TAT just fill's the outstanding bids this causes market drops.

I have no problem with this as long as TAT pays out the diffenrence as an extra dividend. I think he added 2000 shares for approx. 0.0042 BTC per share. The other 21000 share should be compensated with an (0.0052-0.0042) * 2000/21000 extra dividend.

Just my 0.02BTC  ;D

I'm going to try and address a few of the hot topics about PMBs here, in regards to TAT.VM at least.

The Right Price to Buy a PMB
I actually think the work that has been done in the past few days to try and shine a light on PMB valuation and risk has been very interesting to read, and is providing a great service to the community. It's awesome to see people rally around educating themselves, sharing their analysis, and learning how to be more responsible investors overall. That said, I want to make some points regarding TAT.VM's place in a all of this.

TAT.VM was not designed with any exploitative intent. With a rearview mirror, it seems some people want to paint it that way. At the time I was writing up the prospectus, I saw most PMBs and similar "real" mining assets going for a rate of about .014+ per mh/s. I thought to myself, "Man, that is a ridiculous price to pay, someone needs to come in and correct that market to be a fair value."

So I asked myself what a fair value might be at that time. That week, AM Block Eruptor blades were still selling at about .005 mh/s rates. I decided I did not want to compete with the cheapest hardware available, because I did not want to take part in devaluing the hardware market, or expose myself to the risks of miners-with-issued-mining-assets selling their hardware to buy virtual hashes. I felt this would be unhealthy and potentially dangerous.

From there, I weighed my other risks:
- What if AM stopped hashing and started doing only hardware sales, requiring selling AM shares and getting new backing?
- What if AM failed as a company altogether, requiring new backing, with no AM share value to lean on?
- What if difficulty stopped rising for a long period?
- What if difficulty decreased?
- What if one of the exchanges were hacked and I had to pick up the pieces?
...to name a few

Then I weighed the costs of providing the asset:
- Application Fees (10btc)
- Trading Fees to sell the "bonds" (.2%-.5%)
- Time managing dividends
- Time managing my accounting to track the asset and its backing ratio
- Time helping customers with questions via pm/email
- Time responding to forum posts
- Any unforeseen misc work/cost needed to maintain the health of the asset

From there, I decided that a fair starting price would be .007 per mh/s, about half what everyone else was selling for. I was pretty happy that I found a way to sell so much more affordably, and come IPO day, the community showed that they agreed with my valuation by buying 120,000+ units in the first few days.

Now that some time has passed, the environment has changed dramatically. Network difficulty skyrocketed, and the market now has an issuer that found a different way to manage his risk (DMS), causing the "fair" market price to fall to less than .003 per mh/s. In my world, a mere 3 weeks ago, a price like that wasn't even possible without taking on insane risk.

Now, the community is feeling the effects of these changes. Unfortunately, all mining investments have risks for BOTH sides, and, as several people have stated, the only way to trade mining assets is temporally. More than ever, you must aggressively stay informed to make sure you are weighing risk, price, and timing to your own personal gain. While all mining assets have provided opportunity for easy profit, none can ever guarantee it.

All of this considered, I want to tell you that there is not one absolute "fair" market price for a hash, there are virtually three.
1. Fair price to the Buyer
2. Fair price to the Seller/Issuer
3. Fair price to the Market

The Buyer will see fair price as one that is nearly guaranteed to meet his profit standards.

The Seller/Issuer will see fair price as one that is nearly guaranteed to meet his profit standards.

The Market will see fair price as and the push-and-pull between the risk profiles and analysis of Sellers vs. Buyers.

OK, but what is the fair price for the issuer, issuing new shares?

The market drops were caused by you issueing new bonds. Yesterday it caused a 0.0007 drop and today a 0.0003 drop on btct.co.

I think with current difficulty rises a fair price should not be higher than 0.0027 BTC (oops market will drop   :-X)

By the way, where are the BTC going of the new bonds issued?

To his own coffers. There is NO PLAN to increase the hash rates of the existing bonds, they will only go DOWN in value. PMB's are a sucker's bet. You have a better chance of making more money with S. Dice, honestly.

If I issued new units at what the community has determined as currently "fair" it would be too low for my risk analysis. My issuance of new units has been pretty slow since the BTCT.co IPO of TAT.VM, and is likely to be very very small now that DMS is around.

The BTC so far has mostly gone to buying more backing. However, the usage of TATI income isn't exactly relevant in this discussion.

That would actually be interesting to see. SDICE seems to keep finding new ways to sink its own ship.

Ok, you are having problems in answering what you think is a "fair" price? Try to answer it not in general terms like market, buyer,seller or community ;)

I know that you are selling a virtual alternative for real hardware. However the income is relevant because there is a possibility of manipulating the "market" price by issuing more shares.

Is there a way to see how many new shares were issued?

E voorhees/ sdice is one of the biggest scammers/ fuckups in the history of bitcoin.
Selling share way beyond market price.
I certainly would not trust that dickhead of a E Voorhees.

What does he have to do with TAT.VIRTUALMINE?

Nothing, just saying investing in sdice is even worse than a PMB.

This right here.

I was actually questioning around a week ago why people were buying into this and what I was missing, based on the math that proved that if you bought in now you would never see your return. People continued saying it was a good deal and I almost jumped in on it, but I decided to go with my own mathematical instinct and went against it.

I don't think TaT has done anything wrong. This is like someone coming up with a business idea that is bound to fail, you investing, and getting pissed off at them because your money was lost. There is always a risk. Always. Even if you were able to invest in a new Wal-Mart being built, there is still a risk.

As far as I can tell, TaT has followed through with everything he said he would. Does that make it a good investment? Not necessarily. But it's not like he hid information or anything. It was clearly laid out that each bond was worth 1 MH/s. Anyone who knows even the basics about mining knows that 1 MH/s, with difficulty constantly climbing, will keep getting less and less valuable.

There is a fiduciary duty in issuing securities.  In simple english, the issuer, and the exchange have a responsibility to a) have a reasonable expectation that buyers will make a capital gain in the issued security and b) work diligently to ensure that a) actually comes to pass.

Both TAT and Uyko violated this principle.  It certainly isn't illegal.  It is dishonorable.  I won't ever deal with either person again since they are clearly untrustworthy.

Bitcoin investors are missing fundamentals here.  You need to look at price to book value before buying.  TAT.V had no assets, only a promise that he would use asicminer stocks that buyers had no claim on to fund dividends.  That made the price to book value infinite.  The latest mining bond is being issued at $400 / GH/s when the issuer ordered the hashpower at $20 / GH/s. Price to book is 20, a terrible deal.  AMC is much worse than that!

I was under the impression that people who jumped on this soon after it came out made profit. If this is true, then TaT is still not responsible because he did not raise the prices; the security holders did. He has no control over whether or not someone wants to buy a security at a higher price. If someone offered $10,000 per share right now, that is none of his business. So how can he possibly be held responsible if their $10k share did not earn that much in dividends?

I may be missing something big here... as I'm seeing this there is still not any problem.

The problem is that the security was designed to lose money, and overpriced.  TAT knew exactly what he was doing when he offered this security.  He was collecting money to buy more ASICMINER shares for himself by selling an asset that decays.  Every issuer of PMBs knows they are a bad deal, that is why they sell them.

As an example Giga sold over 120 GH/s of bonds when he only had 40 GH/s of actual miners.  If there was any way for the bonds to be profitable he would have been putting himself at tremendous risk.  But of course there was no risk for him.  He was so certain that his bonds were junk he sold triple what he could actually back!  TAT has taken this to a new level.  He didn't have any hashpower.

I absolutely had and have hashpower. In fact, my hashpower backing came at greater expense than hardware. ALL hashes sold are backed before they are issued, not after. I have committed to always maintaining this backing just like any hardware-backed mining fund or bond.

There are no tricks here. To accuse me of such is to accuse all hash providers, whether it be DMS, Pajka, JAH, BASICMINING, Avalon, or even ASICMINER. Selling hashes isn't the problem here. It's that participating in mining is betting that difficulty will remain low enough for the buyer to profit, and that act requires a savvy and agile trader.

Make no mistake, every IPO purchaser had opportunity to profit before DMS came along.

The future of mining has not yet unfolded, and people will make money trading PMBs regardless. Just don't get trapped thinking that trading mining assets is a mindless or risk-free practice.

Assets owned by yourself is not hashpower.  If the ASICMINER shares were owned by this security then you would have an argument.  But they are not.  You have sold a security with zero assets for a finite price.  That is an infinite price to book value.

A few lucky traders will make a profit.  The security itself will profit no one but yourself.  You were making good progress setting yourself up as a parasite on Bitcoin with your passthroughs.  But you have forgotten the first rule of being a parasite - Don't kill your host.

Your greed has betrayed your true character.  I can't imagine why anyone would use you as an escrow agent.

I curious why people choose to buy PMBs if they are overpriced?

If someone bought TAT.VIRTUALMINE at 0.007 BTC, it was because they believed that the difficulty was going up by less than 6.9% every two weeks. They might be right in the end, but so far they have been wrong and that is why they are losing money.


Edit: This is not directed at Entropy-uc so I changed it from 2nd person to 3rd person.

I am curious why you think I buy PMBs.  

I considered issuing them, until I did enough analysis to understand how completely unethical it is to sell such a product.

You should be ashamed of yourself for supporting the issue of such securities on BTCT.co.  It is clear from your comments on the votes that you understand what a ripoff the securities actually are.  Why would you want to allow the users of BTCT to be exploited in this way?

And your calculations are still bogus.  You must apply a discount for the time value of money in addition to the growth rate of the network.

Well, I assumed that you did, but it is obvious from your previous posts you did not. Regardless, by "you", I really meant anyone that bought them. I'll fix that.

As for the ethics ...

I have been struggling to educate people about PMBs for months. I have consistently voted NO on every one (except BFMINES) and have posted in their threads. I voted NO on TAT.VIRTUALMINE. My main concern is the huge misconception brought about by the name "perpetual mining bond". These are neither perpetual nor bonds, and it is not obvious from the contract that all the risk is borne by the investor and the operator risks nothing.

I am not concerned about people making poor investment decisions -- as long as they are fully informed. Nothing in the TAT.VIRTUALMINE about the payment of dividends is deceptive, misleading, or false. I don't believe these are a "ripoff" because of this. To me, overpriced is not the same as ripoff.

Now, I am not supporting TAT as much as I am trying to get people to really understand where they screwed up. If they don't understand why they have lost money, then nothing has really been accomplished. If you convince people that they lost money only because they have been exploited, then you are doing a disservice to them.

As for my "bogus calculations" ...

Perhaps they lack important factors, but at least everyone reading my posts now has rudimentary understanding of the valuation of PMBs. I consider that to be a valuable contribution. I am not afraid to learn why you consider them to be bogus. Please show me how they are bogus. Please show me how to do it properly.

how refreshing someone finally making sense here!...well said [CONFIRMED;]

I gave a simple model for considering buying shares vs. buying your own hardware here.  You would have to start from an assumption that mining hardware was a profitable investment at the time for this method to be valid.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=241415.new#new


If you want to use your method of calculating the present value of the dividend stream coming from the bonds you would need to multiply your network growth factor by (1+discount rate) where the discount rate should be a risk wieghted time value of money.  A good baseline would be the interest paid by Graet, and then scaled up by the relative credit worthiness of the mining bond issuer.

EDIT: actually the present value calculation of a mining bond is a lot messier than this.  You need to create a stream of declining payments at the rate of network growth, and then discount each one by an appropriate amount.  I think the first method of comparing use of capital is a cleaner analysis, and it yields a very obvious result.

Why did you voted yes on BFMINES???? this issuer and his PMB is more worse than all other PMBs currently in the market...I am not saying that other PMBs are good ,just BFMINES is the worsest of it...

The issuer is just exploiting those poor investor, he sell his PMB at 20 times more than what he paid to Metabank , and set a trap on it...
 also there are huge possibility that Metabank itself can be a scam, but you are going to approving it???

I do not know what you think, I think this just ridiculous , you should be ashamed on it , and fell sorry to those poor investors who are going to cheated by his PMB.

According to Metabank ,they are going to deliver their orders on August 2013, but Furuknap put September 2013 on his contract, this one months difference give him a opportunity to mining at most profitable time without issuing dividends.This just a pitfall that  exploiting those poor investors~ and if Metabank are scam, then those poor investors are been fucked because of your wrong decision!

I think BTCT should not issuing more perpetual mining bond, at least if only the issuer promise a maturity date ,like most of bond in real world, or else you are helping to the wrong people to cheating those poor investors.




 

Not that I want to derail all this great discussion  ;) but alot of people are ignoring (or at least not talking about) a major factor. The whole point of TAT.VM was a way to simulate buying hashing power instead of buying the hardware itself....now I'm not trying to say that mining hardware is at a reasonable price right now, as I think it definitely will come down once more supply is available....but let's say for a moment that you wanted to start "mining" but you don't have enough money for a suitable machine. Just for the sake of an argument, lets say you decide that you want to try a USB miner.
Most USB miners are being sold for around 2BTC if not a little more. (as i said, i think this is too high)
For 330 shares of TAT.VM (the equivalent of a USB miner) i would have to pay 1.15BTC right now.
Not only is this cheaper, but the dividends would pay out the next day instead of waiting for shipping and setup. Not to mention dealing with internet downtime, power outtages, etc. And there is no overhead to keep TAT.VM shares.

Yes, you have to watch your investments if you are worried about losing value. No one is saying you should go and buy blindly. But to say that no one should ever buy any of these types of shares, and that they are overvalued pieces of crap is just dishonest, shortsighted, or ignorant.

With the line of thinking that some people have you should just never buy any mining hardware either unless you are "promised" to get a ROI in less than 2 weeks.

If you think something is overpriced, fine, that is a fair point to make. But to say there is no reason at all to own this type of asset is the same as saying you should never buy any mining hardware. Yes, it's a risk to buy into something, everything about bitcoin is risky. Decide if it's a risk for you or not, and if not don't buy it. But don't rage at everyone else that does know how to watch their money just because they can succeed while you are scared of failure.

why in the world restrict the number of companies who want to play the game?..afraid of the coin con bond monopoly i suspect..lol

I haven't been looking around the past few days, i guess they have gone down some in price, but my point stands the same that it is not a useless asset. It might be overpriced, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.
And for the point of the bonds not being backed by physical hardware, that is another issue altogether =P
I am fairly sure it was said from the beginning that it wasn't backed by physical hardware. Personally I think this is better, if it is a person you can trust..He is not saying you are buying 1MH of a specific piece of hardware that could fail, he is saying he will pay you for a days worth of hashing. Now if you want to say TAT isn't trustworthy to pay this, I won't even get into that argument as I haven't been around these forums long enough to see what all he has done. But from what I have seen, I have no problem buying these shares if they are what I see as a good price. Which is basically what I would be willing to pay for physical hardware too. I'm not trying to claim a certain price point, I'm simply saying there is a price point where this can make it as good if not a better investment than physical hardware.

And are they .99BTC for just a single one? I know that you can get this price for a bulk shipment, I was talking about a single (not that it matters much)
Where are you getting 20x the hardware price?

should i sell my tat.virtualmine bonds right now or what? seems this isn't going anywhere :S

the whole concept here is based on mere puffery which is perfectly fine as long as everyone is welcome to participate , however when you restrict participants and  btct cant even keeo their server up obviously that presents issues..hmmm

anyone who holds anything like this overnight has balls imo..lol

From the contract:

Can someone calculate how many ASICMINER shares should be held by TAT.

From the webpage referenced I am seeing a 43TH/s hashrate divided over 400000 shares, thats about 110MH/s per share, is this correct?

Since TAT issued 25655 bonds he should hold 25655 / 110 = 233 ASCIMINER shares. I don't think TAT has them does he?

Or am I missinterpreting the contract?  ???

Or did he ment the ASICMINER Passthrough .... puzzled ???

its like oops they all went somewhere,,lol reboot > click back up we good

TAT holds over 5k ASICMINER shares, so not sure why you think he doesn't hold 233.

Between my direct shares, AM-PT shares, and G.ASICMINER PT shares I have more than enough to back my assets. Later this week I will be applying for my board seat with AM, after which I will be issuing a full transparency report to make it easy for everyone to have an update on my holdings.

where are these secured shares registered?..thanks

Four values to choose from :
- expected coupons: 0.0027 (200 day range)
- buyback 1: 0.00698
- buyback 2: 0.0052
- buyers market price: 0.0008 - 0.003314

Backing not secured...

I'm trying my hardest to take every question and concern seriously this weekend, but these posts are degenerating into baseless assumptions and unintelligible randomness.

Maybe it's the full moon throwing me off?

no this is where the rubber hitz the road are you ready?..lol

I voted YES because despite the fact that it is a "perpetual mining bond" and it is probably a losing investment, Furuknap goes into great detail and explains everything fully, including the risks. I predict that the investment will lose money, but I could be wrong. Since I feel he has left no stone unturned and I do not base my approval on predicted performance, there was very little reason to not approve it.

 Approve a investment which absolutely will causing investors loss money is a wrong, that is nothing to do with how Furuknap write on its contracts bad or good.
We know that Friedcat never make effort in paronomasia, but everybody likes him.

You can't because someone write a nice cheating plan by into every detail, then you concluded this is a good plan.

If Furuknap is a person with moral integrity,  He should not issuing his bond before his devices delivered.  he should not issuing a bond at today's price but mining three months later.   He should not sell his pre-orders 20 times expensive than what he paid. If he take responsibility for his investors he should promise a maturity date for his bond... If he promised ,then this will greatly preventing his contracts losing its value, as well as protecting investors faith in BTCT.He should sell his contracts at 0.2 per M/hash which is 10 times than what he paid , and he can use the profit from this issuing to pay the overhead which relating to operating those miners, and still have some more to spend on  another miners  or doing other investment.By given a maturity date he need to promised what price he will pay back of its initial capital he received.  The term of perpetual is  unfair  which gives absolute predominance to the issuers, I know you are insiders of BTCT, you should make some effort on it to changes the way PMBs used to be, rather than explaining how good  he wrote his plan and how this affects you to derive your decision.


What you did is by helping those greedy people to exploiting on those less experienced investors, and you really should not argue with me , because  you have  made a wrong decision which you had approved it.
  

That would be true if and only if the investment will cause all investors to lose money. Here, the issuer is betting that the difficulty will change at a rate that will cause him to have a net positive return. Investors are betting that the difficulty will change at a rate that will cause THEM to have a net positive return. As long as neither is absolutely assured (and it's not), the bet is fair and it's up to the market to determine the appropriate price based on risk. If nobody thinks the issue price is fair, nobody will buy at IPO.

There's a lot of FUD about these. Transparency is the only remedy. But arm waving and hyperbole is not actual transparency.