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How come a company that talks a lot about fairness totally ignores the interests of most their customers?
We, the majority who wasn't lucky to be in the right timezone, now have to pay for the few lucky ones got into 1-500 batch?

It will be our money that should enable the mere production of ASIC devices, yet we will silently step aside to let the few gunshots reap the rewards. That's what KnCMiner call fair.

I called them out with the email to give the exact estimation and placement of my order but didn't hear back. This is probably because KncMiner fair process cant be judged by a random dude from the > 500 order batch.

Just to clarify for you, You would have been in the 1-500 batch if you placed a pre-order during an approximately week long period in  April after they first announced their miners (so it has nothing to do with timezone, but you're right you needed to be aware of their existence).

What has happened now, is they are giving 7 days to those people with pre-orders to pay and confirm their spot in the queue. The possible unfairness is that some people placed pre-orders (at no cost) with no intention of every paying for an order and now those people are able to sell their pre-order slots at a premium.

I actually don't think this is unfair, those people had the foresight to place a pre-order and now others want it so they can demand a premium. That is how a free market works.
Full disclosure: I did buy a pre-order slot from someone and have placed an order with knc and I was happy to do it.

Also as someone else rightly pointed out in one of the other threads; KnC used those figures pertaining interest to coerce ORSoC on board.

ORSoC wanted to be given an idea numbers of interest before agreeing to partner. Those guys and girls keen then helped KnC secure ORSoC as a partner. KnC were never going to attempt this without ORSoC on board, so there is fairness there.

Absolutely, you can't get a company like ORSoC to partner with you without demonstrating that there is a demand for the product you are developing and that is exactly what pre-orders do.
I don't know why people are complaining about having to pay now. They accept credit cards via paypal, so if you are really concerned that they won't come through, that is one way to do it with minimal risk.
I'll be very interested to hear the feedback after the open day tomorrow.

Yea I signed up for the newsletter on 4/09/2013 thinking ok I registered interest, HAD THEY POSTED "Sign up here to get a place in line" I would have but of course I thought to myself no need they aren't even taking money. ***Face Palm!***  >:(

It is still not fair when 2000 fund the development of something when 500 lucky ones get the reward.
I didn't pay yet, so did not the majority, so hold on your breath you 500 gunshots, without us your order
number is meaningless.

I give KncMiner 6 days to let me know my order shipment estimated delivery date

I don't get the unfairness part.

You could have reserved your place in april. The reservation list was open for a week.

You can order now and probably be in the first 500 anyway.

p.s. And I'm definitely in the wrong timezone.

Same here :-)

I registered in April on the site and for the newsletter, there was no word I should've taken the queue.
Now they need to deal with their incompetence somehow, it's no good when thousands of suckers make 500 random dudes rich.

Remember, without us your 500 spots are nothing

Random dudes that helped them secure a shit-hot FPGA/ASIC design house?! Bastards...

You do know the 500 are also paying customers right?

That's one way of going further - they do it like Avalon and only take money for the number of devices they gonna ship.
Then do the next batch. I'm sure for the next batch the price will be lower because of the competition.
I'm not paying till they clarify my shipment date.

So at the end of it, you're saying it's unfair that you didn't get into the first 500 orders?

What happens if you order now and get #501?

And why do you keep mentioning 2000 to fund the development and 500 lucky ones getting the rewards? According to the order page, all products will be delivered in september.

Okay, I'm hitting the hay;
--
Ok Daggeteo, just emailed me this. So anyone with any questions and concerns that want them asked tomorrow;

PM him before 11am GMT+1!!!

Make these Q's that concern everyone, or groups of people from particular countries, etc., not personal beef about every individual order...

It's the best chance of clearing up whatever you're not happy about, confused or concerned about with them in person.

i.e. Why can't we purchase as consumers? Why do we have to confirm we are a business?

Enjoy...!


Re: Open Day Group PM
« Sent to: Bitcoinorama on: Today at 08:28:29 PM »
« You have forwarded or responded to this message. »
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Received  I'll add these to the list and ask them if there is enough time.

Many thanks for compiling these last ones. I haven't had the time to go through the thread these past two days in search of new Qs so I appreciate that you did! I'll be leaving prior to noonish so if there are any other Qs you wish to add please PM 11 am the latest.

Again, thanks!






AND DON'T FORGET TO THANK HIM!!!

1) They didn't make it clear that we needed to order Mars and have the queue number
2) They didn't say we will need to pay the whole price
3) They use the money of the majority to place abig order and lower the cost
4) The rewards go to the first 500
5) I even don't know my estimated delivery date - they don't reply to my emails

No, other than payment date, everything there's been pretty much common knowledge for weeks. You've just in one post demonstrated you haven't paid any attention, or followed at all.

so much waaaaa waaaaa on these forums

yes I am a lucky 1-500 and I feel like I walk on top of the backs of the poor 501-2000 with no shame or guilt..

I am elite and deserve my place in queue


row faster peon to get me to my island of paradise

I didn't have the time to sit on the forum days long, I subscribed to the email and there was no info that you call common now.
Anyhow, common or not, if the majority doesn't pay the 500 gunshots won't have that much of a sweet deal.
And I'm from the majority not paying till kncminer clarify > 500 shipment dates.

You didn't need to order a Mars to get into the first 500 Jupiters.  I was able to place two pre-orders, both within the first 500, and I didn't place any order for a Mars unit.

I'm totally happy for you bro. Kncminer messed it up and what I'm asking is that they clarify > 500 shipment dates as I'm not gonna wait ages while 500 gunshots reap the smoke out of their ASICs built with my money

Ok, how, prey tell can anyone foresee what will happen between now and then?!

We are sponsoring a well equipped knowledgable team to complete what is a significant task in a timescale they and their experience believed is appropriate.

Shit happens, there may be a delivery late. As long as it's not significant, beyond reasonable expectation (i.e. any of BFL's bullshit) then investors need to relax. September as they said would be amazing.

September is in all fairness the only thing we have to go by, and they can reasonably give.

If you want a precise date, then play it safe and wait until production begins and miners start being delivered. There will undoubtedly be a more accurate answer then...

You snooze, you lose.

What majority are you talking about? You are the only one complaining. Do you honestly think the price will change if there's no majority? Why in the world are you using the word gunshots?

And I still don't see why only the first 500 get rewards. You don't get a mining machine if you're order number 501?

You don't need to buy Mars to have a queue number. And for god sake you know they are in Sweden, can't you google to see what time it is and just guess why they're not answering your email?

It's not 500. Some people "showed interest" multiple times precisely just to ticket skim. I also "showed interest" multiple times when I finally saw KNC "just in case". Unfortunately I am not in the  <500.

They never said anything about that helping them get a partner. They said they would service the skimmers to avoid people getting scammed...  lol! A conspiracy theory that would make sense would be that they are selling places in the pre-order themselves to make a few extra bucks on this "48 hours lottery and 7 days or dead" push. Extra buck without having to scale prices on the website raising more questions.

To be fare to KnCMiner, they are probably swamped with email right now.  It took them about 24 hours to get back to me through email.

Let them go with 500 orders then , why ask for more ?
Sweeter deal for the 500 lucky ones, that's why

Yeah, they probably are swamped with contacts and yet they offer to spend time serving skimmers...

Skimmers that helped them secure a shit-hot FPGA/ASIC design house?! Cn*ts...

Why does McDonalds sell more then 100 burgers a day? Wouldn't quality then go up?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or are just plain stupid now.

I'm not sure you're smart either. When the quality go up because of the investment, all shareholders must somehow win, isn't it?
Now tell me how I win when 500 to X devices go mining before I even get a chance to unpack mine?

They go by quantity that is how the shareholders win. They sell more, they profit more. How do you not know this?

So tell me when you go to McDonalds, and when you see a long line for buying food, do you also shout that it's unfair that there are people in front of you and that they get to eat first?

If you're so unhappy with KNC, go order from Bitfury or BFL then.

You're right!! How f**king inconsiderate of everyone else and KnC not to expect you.

My sincerest apologies...

Man, you're definitely not smart, sorry
I didn't give money to McDonald's, but kncminer takes the same amount of money from everyone then ships to the first 500 and the rest will be history as usual, now get this?
We invest same amount per share but only 500 lucky ones get a return, shout or not

McDonalds wouldn't encourage a sale of slots ever  
you buy or you leave :)

We all invest the same amount and we all get mining machines regardless of what you are saying. If you are so worried about time-frame. Don't buy it. Simple.

Whether you get into the first 500 is up to you. Not KNC or anyone else.

To make it simpler for you: we invest same amount and then wait till all machines from all batches arrive to Sweden, how about that ?

Because everyone that paid attention, queued, and ordered first would have cold burgers!

I get it, now take your 500 orders and go with it, ah?

You're honestly not going to use common sense are you.

It's up to you whether you are early in the queue or not. The more you wait, the later you are in the queue.

that sounds pretty much BFL-ly
But times changed, the 500 ones need the rest of us to have a sweet deal
I'm not in till kncminer makes it clear who gets what when

I genuinely wouldn't encourage this dude, he will be a monster headache to deal with on their part! He'll slow the operation down if he needs this much attention and explanation.

Not to mention the fact he is ready to part with significant funds and has made zero effort towards any research or due diligence.

He's happy to wait it out, and I genuinely feel it's best and will keep him more comfortable that way risk wise.

How about some people queued but without any money, what will McDonalds treat them? Allow the sale of their slot for burger?

Stop saying that the 500 needs the rest of us to have a sweet deal. That does not make sense at all.

Everyone had a fair chance to getting into the first 500 orders.

You say you don't visit the forums but it is your responsibility if you wanted the product that bad to do your own due diligence.

You don't think that hasn't happened before? Eg. Launch day of an iphone or outside Walmart on black friday?

I trusted kncminer when I registered and subscribed to their OFFICIAL newsletter.
Now I don't. Take these 500 orders and run for the cold burgers, have luck !

Yea I think I'm wasting my breath on him.

Time for me to play Grid 2. :)

But the stores will never encourage nor even take part in it to make sure "the transfer smoothly"!

Well, they don't stop it either and it's easier in real-life.

you are right , you don't win..  you lose, look in the mirror and what you see??  someone who lost...  so sad..  

Thanks for the support! You basically confirming that > 500 dudes lose on this, right!

yes i am trying to confirm your reality so you can go to sleep or jump off bridge

Second batch means that they take money for 500 orders ONLY. Then after shipping it they take money for the second batch.
Now I'm kinda in the first batch where only few lucky ones get the product, and the rest is doomed to wait whatever time is needed for the first 500 to reap the smoke out of their ASICs.

Meantime in August many new products can appear driving the price down. That's why kncminer want to secure all payments now.

ADDED: how about waiting for all the devices to come to Sweden before giving out to anyone?

If you have order #1, will you be asking that? I don't think so.

You need a reality check badly.

Tell you in all honesty - I wouldn't ask myself but if somebody did I'd agree it's fair

No they need funds to develop an entirely new 28nm ASIC which can cost in the hundreds of thousands.

Asian chip manufacturers want payment before they manufacture ironically.

But f**k it, they should have expected you as well!

And aside from 500 initial pre order guaranteed positions, there are no batches per say, you're just in line dependant on purchase position. You really have read nothing but their initial offering way back before ORSoC came on board.

Do you even know who ORSoC are in this?!

Man, are you on page with us? We pay UPFRONT - there is no more money after they get the devices.

So if KNC gets 10000 orders, and they will need 6 months to make that many. You are willing to wait while avalon, bfl, bitfury all are hashing away happily while you only get yours in 2014?

Extremely hypocritical from what you were saying earlier.

I really don't see how he's not getting any of this.

Then take your 500 orders and run with it. Why ask for my money ?

They're not asking for your money only. You are not that special to them. Anyone can order, pay and take the risk.

Please don't, he's still doesn't have any clearer a picture than when this started 3 pages back...

Exactly, they want my and the rest of people money to make 500 lucky ones happy

ADDED: let's run a lottery for the 500 spots, how about that ?

As I said before, you need a reality check very badly. Without your order and any after 500, they will still make the miner at the price that have stated.

You're totally obsessed the early pre-orders. And it wasn't luck they got in. They did their homework, you didn't.

The let them go with 500 orders maybe? Do you need the suckers, yes or no?

It's up to them, not me.

As I said, if you're not happy, don't order.

And that's a very shortsighted view on the business, a better view is when there is a win-win situation.
We can still change it around, doing lottery on the 500 spots.
Otherwise many won't order and the funds can get limited.

see troll dance... see how he spin...  DONT FEED THE TROLL!!!!

Guys I have order 4277 what discounts can I have?

I'm not at all disappointed, rather astounded how they can do business like that and people follow like sheep.
BFL story all round.

READ THIS CAREFULLY: unfair process is when everyone invests the same but few reap the reward.

Let kncminer go with 500 orders first and when the product is done sell the next batch, how Avalon did. Then the early adopters will be rewarded for the risk. If I was in the first 500 I'd be fine with that.

If they want all money, they need to run a lottery or wait for all the devices to come before giving one to anyone.

Hi, not sure if was already mentioned but:
KncMiner wrote me that we need to wait 7 days (counting from the day they opened the order book) before they are able to tell us which place we have in the queue

Presuming things go as they planned, there won't be a huge time difference between the 1-500 orders and the rest.

It won't be the Avalon model with a large time gap between batches, and it won't be the bfl model of a few at a time, it should be a constant stream of large deliveries.

You could even say that the more pre-orders they get the better they can adapt their processes to deliver more and faster.

Then you should be fine with the lottery placement, right? There won't be that much of time difference.

I think everyone is saying in your thread, you are a sore loser and you should start being responsible for your own actions and inactions.

And do read this carefully, you are the only and I mean only person complaining. Everyone else is okay with what they are doing. Everyone has disagreed with what you are saying.

Do the poll and see how many support the idea of the few ones to get all the reward vs lottery placement

Then show me this majority you keep on talking about this in this thread you created that is siding with you.

I am wondering quite how you deduce that.

These guys aren't BFL, to whom 400 units a day actually means maybe a few a week on a good week.

How many places in line are you missing out on by blathering on the forum instead of paying for product?

Supposing it takes 500 units to fill a UPS truck, is BFL so totally full of BS that actually the entire idea anyone could churn out 400 units a day is craziness, an obvious lie, such utter bull that no one ever believed for a moment anyone, least of all BFL, could churn out so many so fast?

Or was it kind of a believable number, a yeah sure a well organised outfit should be able to pull that off number, a number, in other words, that maybe might even give some gleam of hope that maybe someone who really did know their stuff might be able to churn out 500 a day?

If so oh my gosh, how unfair to have to be on the next day's truck instead of the first day's truck!

If not well oh my gosh what are we talking here, like, a no truck day between each truck day? Or are you thinking even worse than that?

Meanwhile how many truckloads got bought with actual cash payments since I ordered a Saturn quite some number of hours ago?

Maybe every hour that passes is a whole 'nother day you'll have to wait for your unit(s)? Maybe two days? Three?

Just how bad exactly do you think the actual mass production-and-shipping run is going to be?

I admit I do not know what these concerns are grounded in exactly.

Did I miss a post where they explained they only get enough millimeters of a shared wafer each semester to produce 500 units in the fall, another 500 sometime in the winter, and maybe faster in the spring if they had been able to place enough pre-orders for wafer space by then or something?

-MarkM-

You totally missed how they assign places

I did? Oh sorry then. I had the impression a person is in that first 500 or not, unless they fail to pay, and that some (well, one anyway) who didn't make the cut doesn't like that.

Are you saying it doesn't matter how long I, as a non-first-500 person, dilly dally and blather before paying, because I somehow won't end up behind more and more non first 500 people who actually fork over the money?

Or is OP one of the lucky 500 and doesn't feel that is fair so wants to raffle off his position free to make things fairer, or something?

Aha maybe you mean the five people who spammed the queue with 100 email addresses each since there was no cost to pay to get in then are going to cause billions of units to be ahead of us because anyone having the foresight to spam orders obviously would have some massive ones in there knowing there will be folks looking to spend millions? So we are not 500 units behind but maybe more like 500,000 units behind if we are lucky?

(If I was running the thing and had time to read those slots for sale posts I'd sure as heck scrap "duplicate" orders, at least the directly in a row duplicates. Like hey, you are one person, schmuck, out of first 500 people, I dont care if you have 500 email addresses or what...)

-MarkM-

Grow a pair and stop whining.

He is the OP and is whining like a little bitch.

He thinks the first 500 get the machines for free and will totally devastate the whole bitcoin community with its hashing megapowers.

exactly, there is no clearly defined fair process and when you pay at the moment does not matter

Bullpucky. When *I* pay matters a lot. The fact I already paid puts me ahead of any non-golden-500 person who didn't pay before I did, I thought they actually wrote that somewhere? Or was that baseless hearsay posted by some random troll?

Heck it probably even puts me behind any non-golden-500 person who buys a slot off a slot-scalper, but that is fair in capitalism isn't it? They who fork over the gold get the golden tickets? Assuming they offer enough to convince those who actually found the things to sell them?

-MarkM-

Nope. They didn't reply to my email regarding order placement and shipment but they did to another guy

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=225540.msg2376984#msg2376984

And placement is not done by actual payment, not at the moment at least

Do give up talking to this troll. I've given up trying to explain things to him.

OP:

You seem not to have understood what you just referred to.

It seems pretty clear that until they know which golden slots are actually paying within the seven day window they won't know which of them will actually still exist to be ahead of the ordered by actual payment non-golden folk like me and, maybe, one of these years, if you like what we all get, and still want some once we all got some, you...

-MarkM-

Nope. I placed the non-golden order and have 7 days to pay. So the placement is not done by the payment date.

Ahhhh! That I did not know!

So you propose that we toss a coin to decide whether you should give me your spot, being as how I paid and you have not yet?

Or you propose you should yield your spot to me?

-MarkM-

That's what I refer to as mess and unfairness. Seems like they spin the process as they like, there are no rules.

Maybe some, like how much one truck can carry.

You still didn't indicate even whether you expect we are already truckloads apart or probably both on the same truck, let alone how many hours days weeks or months you expect between truckloads...

I have heard of courier companies so large and rich they can actually send more than one truck at a time to do pickups!

-MarkM-

EDIT: You should sulk at least 7 full days before paying though, just as a matter of principle! :)

Look FFS, the magic '500' units number only applies to the bare minimum they need to sell fund the non-reoccurring engineering costs of 28nm ASIC development in the timescale they have set themselves.

That is all.

There is no real spectacular difference to the end user other than they may receive the product earlier than those that order later *if manufacturing takes a while to reach full speed.

There are no gold and diamond encrusted first 500 units.

Those in that first 500 registered interest and placed pre-orders early before KnC pitched their idea to ORSoC. That magic 500+ was ORSoC's bare minimum of interest before they would even consider devoting time to this project.

In an unusual, but respectable manner KnC are upholding a promise they gave the first 500 by granting the, the license to keep or sell their first run preorder in gratitude for helping KnC get this project off the ground.

Integrity, or at least the perception of it. We have to see how the project pans out.

They don't want to have to deal with pre-sales via eBay, they won't support it or the tarnished image it gives. They will only support sales or pre-sale they agree to change the buyer's name on.

You may have been aware of KnC's early intentions, but through choice you decided not to keep abreast of the situation.

A week is a long time in this crazy Bitcoin ASIC development world.

For me at least it has been mentally exhausting to keep abreast and relay information to people so they can make informed choices without hopefully getting scammed by so many out to do just that.

You've done nothing but be lazy, please be an adult male and quit whining it's not a very alpha male/ masculine trait. Admit you f**ked up and try and join the queue now which shouldn't make a huge difference in the scheme of things if you have made yourself fully aware of the project and the risks, which you haven't yet done.

Do some research, real research, actually read, make up your mind.

You might find many things about this you don't like, or a lot you do.

You have to be responsible for your decisions and not blame anyone but yourself for mismanaging them.

Genuinely best of luck with whatever you decide, but stop the whining as you have no foundation for genuine complaint.

Best wishes!

Also don't expect an answer from them before the weekend. If you have paid any attention so far you would know why they will be busy in the interim...pay attention!

I'm not able to live up to be scammed so I'm out I guess.

Relax he's probably a young guy and this is clearly not the best investment for him.

He's unprepared, impatient and easy to declare himself the victim without accepting recognition for his mistakes.

Hopefully he's got the anger out of his system now. Should KnC succeed, I'm sure he will find a point of entry that suits himself better than now.

That's total bullshit. I have the balls to even pay for my > 500 order if the rules are set straight and I'm not donating my money for nothing.

nature has a simple way to deal with baby birds who leave their nest in this mindset

awesome clip......thx!   love the one that raises his head at the end and runs over

Have an order confirmation dated 2013-05-14. Never heard of them again. Account is now unknown. WTF

So, you didn't take advantage of the numerous KnC group buys?  Well then...

http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-stop-whining-25.png

 ;D ;D ;D

you give KncMiner 6 days to let you know, or .... .... .... .... why not just ask nicely?

6) and they probably didn't think of how much you would complain... c'mon man people complain about things that have nothing wrong with them too, it gets old fast.