Bitcoin Forum

I recently lost 10 bitcoin to a clusterfuck of poor service on the parts of Bets of Bitcoin and Bitbet.

I bet 10 bitcoin on this bet: http://bitbet.us/bet/591/bitcoin-price-to-rise-above-750-usd/

However, I transferred the 10 bitcoin from Bets of Bitcoin, which neglected to include a transaction fee (and gave me no option to do so), resulting in my transaction being delayed for ~24 hours: https://blockchain.info/tx/2af75fb4e50a14bf247575bf426615d01f9d6db4d88dc0668d27c88259f68691

As a result, due to this unfair technicality in Bitbet's rules: http://bitbet.us/faq/#151, I am now out 10 bitcoin. Adding insult to injury, the mod graced me with this snarky retort: "Unconfirmed bets are not refunded. Kindly see FAQ, and include tx fees next time. Think of the miners!"... More like "think of our pockets which our now 10 ill-begotten bitcoin richer."

If we are going to build an ecosystem that can support and serve the mainstream whose attention bitcoin has recently achieved, poor user experiences like this should not (and need not) happen.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to solicit/enact the refund of my stolen (I do think this is the appropriate term) coins.

If you feel so inclined, tweet to Bitbet that they should refund my coins: https://twitter.com/BitBets "@Bitbets It's unfair to keep @Snack_Man's 10 BTC that was sent to 13EW8oUL5mzLiBbYpZouNqjNsFhabiSoeX. Refund them!"

TL;DR: I lost a substantial amount of money to Bets of Bitcoin / Bitbet for no good reason. Beware of Bets of Bitcoin's lack of transaction fee on withdrawals and Bitbet's draconian, scammy rules.

Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=165500.0)) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching. Placing a bet when the resolution is imminent is dangerous. Doing so without a tx fee is suicidal. The rules governing this possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151).

It is unfortunate that you deemed it alright to wager your BTC with a service whose guidelines you had not read, and before you had grasped the concepts of transactions and confirmations in the first place. That you made these choices, however, is not anybody else's concern.

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151) is a just one.

What else should they do?! As long as a transaction is not in a block, it could be double spent away. I agree that it is not a nice way to deal with this issue, but you are free to use their "service". I sure didn't and I know why.

Sounds like bitbet is taking advantage of it's customers. I don't see how it's possibly justified to just keep all 10 bitcoins, it's still slimy and unprofessional even if it is in the FAQ. And if the service is in fact notoriously inept, then the blame for that still falls largely on the service and not the customers who get taken like suckers. The thing to do as I see it is to alert other customers to the service's shadiness and urge the service to resolve the situation and improve their policies. Chastising the customer for getting taken doesn't really help.

I don't see how it would be any skin off their back to return transfers that are confirmed by the network post-bet closing. The 1% fee that they deduct for bets arriving after bet satisfaction isn't unreasonable, and could be applied to this situation as well. As far as I can tell, the difference between bet closing and bet satisfaction is immaterial except for their inside accounting/business practices (and perhaps so that they can poach the coins). A "benefit" to users of the site is that the moderators have a clear incentive - all unconfirmed bet transfers - to close bets ASAP.

I joined Bitbet's IRC channel (http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=#bitcoin-assets) to seek a solution to my problem before the bet closed (seeing that the transaction hadn't been picked up by the network) and was treated very rudely, similar to MPOE-PR's response but with more ad hominem.

The silly thing is that if they didn't have these shady policies and made a few usability adjustments their service could be much more popular.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.

You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care. In either case, it is you that will have to adjust (and I do earnestly hope that you do; there are a lot of resources on this very forum, on IRC (https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=bitcoin-assets), and around the web that can help).


Learn to read.

At any rate, this isn't a chastisement. If you fuck up to this degree, you're stuck having fucked up.

Transaction fee present or not, the rule is unjust because it keeps customers' bitcoin for no good reason. The fact that my failure to include a transaction fee has to be 'remedied' (your word choice is an unfair use of rhetoric - are you connected to Bitbet in any way?) is only due to Bitbet's unfair policy (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151). Furthermore, the blame for the lack of transaction fee on my transfer resides solely with Bets of Bitcoin (who have yet to respond to my email saying as much, btw).

Your so-called 'earnest' hope that I 'adjust' smacks of still more self-righteous condescension.

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Well, bitbet is owned and operated by Mircea Popescu, the self proclaimed mastermind of all that is Bitcoin and prowd owner overlord employer of MPOE-PR. ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MPoqqzwdY

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

Moreover:



Sigh. I understand that it's hard not to take it personally when you've lost BTC, but no, seriously, if you're into BTC I think it'd be great if you spent the time and the energy (this isn't "condescension", again; it takes a lot of time and energy, far more than most people are used to expending, to wisely and correctly handle Bitcoin, especially with a zillion "services" out there run by the unskilled who won't tell people what they've done wrong, and instead try to band-aid over things with "being nice" until they inevitably fail and take everyone's coins with them) to get up to speed.

I'm "connected" to BitBet inasmuch as I represent MPEx here on the forums, and the owner co-owns BitBet itself. I see that you already talked to actual mods on IRC.

It's disingenuous for you to join this conversation without explicitly stating that you represent Bitbet (which your statement leaves no doubt of - in spite of the quotes around "connected"). No one in the IRC would declare their association with Bitbet, so no - I did not speak to "actual mods" on IRC.

To suggest that I'm "taking it personally" is to sidestep and downplay the issue at hand: namely that your site's policy is unjust and disreputable (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151).

This is irrelevant.


You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151).

I noticed more than a few bets with incorrect resolution dates at BitBet,

which they do not change or fix. Really have to read the fine print with these folks.

I love the "tough shit" attitude- not what anybody would want to hear when expressing a grievance.

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.

Why do people who have no idea about anything (such as you) feel the need to prove it in writing? Go start a pool, fail, then see why the pools that succeed don't fuck with the Central Bank of Bitcoin.

So your reply is that stealing coins is fine ? Central Bank of Bitcoin, lol

It is cool that even trying to make this reply as stupid as I could, yours is still way ahead in the stupidness level. Calling names doesn't get issues fixed, darling.

MPOE-PR, please explain Bitbet's rationale for the policy (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151).

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?

Thank you OP for this thread. I will place my bets on other sites. This practice is shady as fuck.. Because even if you include a proper Fee the tx can be delayed quite some time at this moment

No problem - what other sites would you recommend (besides Bets of Bitcoin)?

Right. Let's look at an example of this "I'm going to recklessly and stupidly throw my BTC around without the slightest clue of what I'm doing and then demand that the people who get hit with my projections fix my problems for me (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-11-2013#384073)" at work:


So that's:

1. Deciding you're ready for BTC either without knowing or without caring about transaction fees;
2. Deciding you're ready for betting without knowing or without caring about the way betting services work;
3. Betting when the resolution criteria being met was an imminent event;
4. Using Bets of Bitcoin without having done any due diligence, which would have revealed that they're pretty much useless, for reasons including their lack of using tx fees;
5. Not reading or not caring about BitBet's FAQ and the open, fully explained, warnings about the rare potential for this very situation on this very forum;
6. Insisting that it's other people who are stupid, such that those who were attempting to help you out lost interest in your ranting.

That you have the gall to suggest that it's someone other than yourself that dropped the ball is pretty incredible.


Something like this perhaps (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=186041.0).


Back on planet Earth, the reason you've not been used is that you have yet to change. GLWT.

I don't know what you can do besides threads like this, maybe take it to the scam accusation thread. Put this thread or others in your signature perhaps, use word of mouth.


Predictious.com offers something similar although I've never used them.


I probably shouldn't even ask, but what does this mean? I don't get it.

I don't use your service(s) and I'm not here to get people to use any of mine, I just don't like honest people being screwed and then insulted to boot. Bitbet keeping these coins, which did not count towards any bet, is akin to stealing. The policy is grossly unjust and unreasonable, and putting the policy in the FAQ doesn't make it any better. 

I've never been affected by this policy, but I won't stand for others being screwed by it and you can count me as someone who will never use Bitbet or any other related services. I hope others follow suit. You can go ahead and keep lobbing cryptic insults at me and others who weigh in on the situation but it doesn't make you or Bitbet look any better.

1.- BTC is a currency that has the option to send transactions without tx fees, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

2.- Betting services work in a way that you have to provide the bet and win in order to keep the money of the person that made the bet. If for some reason that was the user fault you failed to provide such bet, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

3.- If betting on an imminent event was that important the service provider should prevent it from being possible. So again, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

4.- Using a different betting service should be no reason for discrimination or give you the right to keep his money.

5.- FAQs are not user agreements. And even if this was in the user agreement, it still makes it illegal. The user bought a bet, but no bet was provided. After the transaction was confirmed you have no reason to keep the BTC since you didn't provide the bet. If the FAQs said that if you failed to provide tx fees you would be entitled to own his properties it would be as illegal as this. User's agreements are made in order to protect the provider from certain risks, but failing to read FAQs is no excuse for keeping his money. And since the term does not condition the receiving of such money this action is a theft. Why? Imagine this:

I make a website called tvrepairs.com. I advertise that I will fix any issue for 200 usd. In the user agreement at the bottom I put that if you don't call the technician by the name charles he will be charged an extra 1000 usd.

If the terms you apply to your customers harms them economically in an event that doesn't affect you economically then you are scamming people. I hope you realize this and act accordingly, to my point of view, he was stolen 6k usd.

6.- His ability to think or the fact that he call other people names does not give you the right to keep his money.


I'm hoping I'm clear enough for you to comprehend that. Even if the address from which his BTC where sent can't be the same than his receiving address, this should be sorted out with bets of bitcoin so that this user received his BTC back.

I would suggest the op to start a post in scam accusations or move this one there.

Wow Snackman,

Thank you for raising awareness about this important issue. I'm sorry you had to pay the price of losing 10 BTC to frauds. Now the community knows. I hope this issue is resolved quickly. I would much prefer those who received your bitcoin simply return it to your address, since no services were rendered. It wouldn't seem right for a company to take 10 BTC after *no* services were rendered, and just say, "Oh well, it says in the fine print that we can steal from you. Sux! Lol!"

I just tweeted about it. Hopefully they will do what is right and return what is yours.

I would disagree that I hit anyone with my "projections" [sic], and that in fact I was harmed by your site's unfair policy (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151), which you have yet to explain the rationale for. Also, taking my statement "I don't understand" out of context is pretty low.

I know and care about transaction fees, but Bets of Bitcoin did not properly operate my transaction.

You are right: I made a mistake by assuming that I was dealing with a reputable institution.

If your site allows betting, people will bet.

I am much more disappointed with BitBet's conduct than Bets of Bitcoin's.

How much bitcoin has BitBet taken in from this practice?

I have not insulted anyone.

You are outrageous.

I notice you deleted your erroneous suggestion that I cancel my bet (http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-cancel-your-bitbet-bet/) by sending more bitcoin to you, which would not have arrived before bet closure and would also have been stolen.

Quoting this inept sockpuppeting for the future lols.

You fucktards, seriously. Get a life and more importantly: get over yourselves.


It's a jab at your virginity.

In addition to the suggestions in this thread; under each bet on bitbet, there is an unmoderated discussion page where you can talk about this issue with other bitbettors.

- MPOE-PR is the ONLY one in this thread suggesting that Bitbet is right in keeping the stolen money.
- MPOE-PR has some association with Bitbet, and this is likely the reason he is defending it.
- Bitbet has blatantly stolen $6,000 of BTC that does not belong to them.
- I would suggest finding out the details of who owns Bitbet and threatening a suit if they don't return the BTC.

If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere.  

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?

bitbet won't last too long unless they change that rules and return the coins. They have a chance to get out of this gracefully.

mp might be saying it's all fine and dandy but it's not.

+1 this sums the situation up very well.


Amazing. And companies let you represent them? Make sure you pass that gem of an insult on to teenage bullies.

So if you want to bet 20 minutes before something and you include a transaction fee but it doesn't get enough confirmations, they can just keep it?

You are discrediting yourself and the business you represent with this crazy idea. Fuck you and everything you are involved with.

If I pick up someone's wallet off the street, is it right for me to spend money from the credit card inside of it?

That's essentially what Bitbet is doing, except they know exactly who the money belongs to and have every opportunity to return it.  They can write in their FAQ that it is ok for them to kill anyone who loses a bet, but that doesn't make killing someone who loses a bet right or legal.

And if pay pal decided to change their terms and conditions to say:

1. Any money sent will actually be sent to Peter Thiel.

Would that be legal.

I'd argue that these so called terms and conditions at bitbet aren't actually terms and conditions at all but a "FAQ" http://bitbet.us/faq/#151

In fact where are their terms and conditions? You can't just stick something in a faq and call it terms and conditions.

BitBet's policy (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151) is insane.

FYI: deadweasel is associated with BitBet (below quoted from BitBet IRC transcript (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-11-2013#384073)).

Again that's their faq not their t&c. Did the op AGREE to the FAQ. Did he fuck.

This is working admirably well (http://bitbet.us/bet/147/mtgox-out-of-business-by-end-of-year/#c1805). I think MP likes you (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-11-2013#386255) even.


BitBet will be here long after you're long gone. It's just the way these things work.


Dude, seriously? He? Still? Lurk moar.

Are you directly involved with the site?

My involvement is basically that there was a group of idiots derping in this thread and I joined the fray. Why?

I wouldn't be so sure. Taking into consideration that the site is a .com it falls under US law, even though it is registered to a costa rican guy. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be so hard to take it down legally.

Thieves seldom prosper. You had to buy your trust. You have to rip people off at your betting site (don't say you're not connected) and your exchance is a ponzi, money laundering scheme. You literally can't do anything honestly.

Sue me. I could do with the discovery documents. A new age of bitcoin has come. People like you need to get out.  But you will be held accountable in the end. Scum

O Mighty Money Morpheus, please have mercy with your takings down legally.

Are you as cool as the guy in the Matrix? Very original, seriously. Your mommy must be so proud....

PS. Great signature. Here's a thought: dweebs growing bud on the quiet should not be on the internet talking about "taking shit down legally". You're lucky nobody with any actual RL presence is bored enough, you know?

Huge coincidence

MP sez quote that shit so I do. Apparently he thinks you're very funny or something, I dunno.

I'm just refuting some of your statements with logic, no need to put yourself so defensive. I don't even live in the US. I'm just doing this because I feel bad for the OP, but other than talking here I won't do more.

The OP could also check Chaves background and see if he is paying his taxes on his earnings in his country and file a money laundering complain with the authorities in costa rica. And I can keep on thinking in ways that could end a betting site, since by the looks of it I'm pretty sure the owners haven't made all of their legal homework, specially if you are submitting users to illegal terms.

PD: Still if you are not representative of them you shouldn't be defending them so badly; and if you are you should contact them and make them think this threw to see what they feel is right

It's spelled through you know.

1. Stop pretending you are a woman
2. Stop pretending you are MPOE's PR executive
3. Stop eating so much you fat bastard

-----------------------

I looked at bitbet and liked the idea but a site that would rather rip someone off for 6k rather than build a customer base is no site at all.

Stop pretending you have a brain.

I'm as associated as you, a user.  Only i read the rules.

Please direct all further refund requests to BitBet's authorized refund handling agent, Mr. David Thorne (http://www.27bslash6.com/overdue.html), esq.

Oh fuck, I lol'd.

you're the bottom feeder here. fair enough there are lot of stupid people at this stage that a fat fuck like you can rip off. well done you are slightly more intelligent than an average moron.

the people i respect are the people can build a real, honest, profitable gambling site and exchange without the need to rip off and trick users.  You aren't capable of that. How does that feel?I know you pretend to not care and shroud it all in the users deserves what they get but KNOWING that you can't profit without ripping people off must at least cross your radar.

You're just a bottom feeder. A low level psychopath. Enjoy your 6 grand.

Dude, lay off already. The rule is there because without it, scummy fucks just try to rip off the people that actually bet and undertake the risks by swooping in at the last minute.

The lulzy thing is, of course, that even WITH the rule scummy fucks try to rip off the people that actually bet and take the risks, by swooping in at the last minute. The only difference is that it doesn't work, and sometimes it doesn't work in such spectacular fireworky manner that the butthurt can be heard from outer space.

Except there's no sympathy for the hurt butt of a wanna-be rip-off that failed at it and got hurt. You know?

I'm a little confused here, didn't he bet before the bet closed?  How does a transaction delay retroactively affect the time he placed his bet?

If you want bitbet to end; make a better competitor. otherwise deal with it

I'd argue that your regular presence in the BitBet IRC for 10 months or more associates you more than the average user.


pankkake is also a regular in the BitBet IRC,

as is davout.


I'm also confused by this. Double spending is not a concern, with proper precaution (see this reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1lhwcu/has_there_ever_been_a_successful_double_spend/cbzka00)). Rudimentary game theory makes it abundantly clear that I wasn't attempting to double spend a losing bet.


Your insinuation that I am a "scummy fuck" for betting on an available bet rings more than a bit hollow when you have my 10 BTC in your wallet. If you would like to make last-minute bets impossible on your site, institute a rule like Bets of Bitcoin: refund all bets made within some number of hours before bet closing.

Don't bait users into betting, steal their bet, and then call them "scummy fucks".

You should return the coins to all affected users and change your ridiculous policy (http://bitbet.us/faq/#151).

It isn't BitBet IRC, it is #bitcoin-assets. The BitBet people just hang out there...

Fair enough - the point is that they are "The BitBet people".

Also double spending is like, super easy when you don't include a tx fee. I do it quite often when the network won't pick up a transaction I need confirmed fast.

Are you associated with them, too?

If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.

I registered on these forums in 2010, before 98% of the users around here.
So... if I follow your "reasoning" you can associate me with whatever scam took place since then, right?




Apples, oranges.
If BB used your unconfirmed TX output in the bet payout it'd be retarded because one scammer could fuck with the validity of the complete payout (a in "for everyone", not only for his winnings).


So the correct course of action for you is :
 - Think,
 - Understand the why of the policy,
 - Get over it,
 - Pay more attention next time

You are a cold-hearted *erk. Guy lost 10k dollars! I'm on his side and he is fully right! Anyways, the problem is that Bitcoin-qt sometimes asks and sometimes doesn't ask for tx fee? So how can it be forced? I don't see that option.

Read the fucking thread, the guy did not use Bitcoin-qt.

You have my full support. I'm linking this on Reddit already and Tweeted about it. Such behaviour of betting sites is outrageous, they should loose their reputation and credibility!

No, he did not bet before the bet closed. He did some gymnastics which he imagines should count. They don't.

Roughly equivalent would be the guy going to the insurance company after his house burned down and saying "but you know, I rubbed my nose right before the fire started, CLEARLY!!!! that means I was going to pay you the premium, I should be covered!"

And then being told he's nuts, and just sticking to his story, repeating it again and again, as if that did anything. As if life is some sort of contest of who stuffs his ears tighter and yells "no u" for longer.

However, this isn't fiat world run by daddy government, where even the last subhuman piece of shit retard is guaranteed survival irrespective of any practical consideration, strictly on the basis that he may vote, and so he may call customer support and abuse the staff with impunity, and then call 911 because his hamburger wasn't well done enough or whatever.

You don't vote here, not by headcount anyway. This is Bitcoin - which is to say a republic not a democracy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101902.msg1601463#msg1601463), which is to say Sparta - run by MP & co, where you either know what you're doing, learn what you're doing, or get lost.

Consequently, fuckwits that clearly don't know what they're doing get told so, and if instead of humbly accepting they were stupid, eating up their punishment - their punishment - and becoming better doobies for the future they "revolt" and "organize boycotts" in their own head and so on and so forth the result is strictly more punishment, mostly in the form of public humiliation and mockery.

Don't be this retard starting the thread here, or any other one of the long string of retards that ran into a well made service - a very well made service - with a headful of mistaken assumptions and got trampled into mush to date. Be the smart guy that learns what Bitcoin is, and what crypto means, and how blockchains work, and why they work that way, and what the WoT is, and why it's important, and what identity is, and why that's important, and what business is, and how it works, and how it works that way, and why it has to work that way and so on and so forth.

That's what I'm here doing, hundreds of hours a month, on MPOE's dime, telling you the whys and wherefores of all that so that you collectively, the "community" of retards congregated on retardstalk, the retard forum inhabited by retards, may become over time less retarded and who knows, maybe even productive, useful members of the actual Bitcoin community. One in ten would already be a grand victory at the rate we're going.

One in ten. Look through my two year long posting history for fucks sake, look at all the idiots that knew better than me on the strength of Dunning–Kruger's affliction. There's a crowd each month, and then they disappear and a new crowd takes over (http://trilema.com/2013/the-story-of-pointless-and-witless/). Exactly the same stupidity, under new names, sputtered by new people, identical to the old. Follow their histories, write a book. Don't be the mayfly that lives out its illusion for a summer, don't be the blade of grass to be replaced by an identical blade of grass every time a goat comes by and snips it. Use that noggin, be a human being already.

You want to know what the biggest obstacle is? The braindamaged, boneheaded assumption of every fuckwit that heard about Bitcoin a month ago, or a week ago, or whenever the last time fiat went down against it was, who now imagines he knows what everything is. That's what's keeping you all poor and irrelevant, not the fact that others were here first, not the fact that you didn't hear about it back when people mined it on their desktop. None of that, it's not something external, it's something quite internal: your mistaken assumptions, chief among which that you matter, and chief among which that you know shit you haven't the first clue about. Get rid of these!

Be the guy that LISTENS when MP says to him "Is this your first time? Well so then start small (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-08-2013#262712)". Don't be the guy that SAYS "sounds like a fine plan" but then DOESN'T DO IT! Because you think you know better. You don't know better.

Bitcoin is a contest of wits. The fate of the witless is this: anger, frustration, failure. Don't be that guy.


Yeah, like that fractool (http://dpaste.com/1476546/) guy.



You're not confused, you're just one of the scummy fucks that imagines interested blindness is a valuable argument to bring. Bonus points for having quoted reddit as some sort of source, lmao. Meanwhile back at Reality Ranch:


Reddit is possibly the only place on the web with an even higher concentration of stupid than here. And since we're on this: #bitcoin-assets (https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=bitcoin-assets) is not "BitBet irc", #bitcoin-assets is where people representing a majority of Bitcoins in circulation hang out. That place is where the law of the land comes from, that's where the future is drawn up. When MP doesn't want Bitcoin over 100, it's that irc chan where he first says something. When people want Bitcoin over 500 it's that chan where they come and ask if it's okay. When MtGox's slaughter is decided that's where it's first hinted at, and generally, everything that you find about a week after on Reddit was pre-announced a week or a month in advance on #bitcoin-assets.

You'd better LURK there for a while, and read the logs every day for six months to a year before you even say anything about anything. Show some respect to your betters --and make no mistake about it: the people there ARE your betters.


To quote MP (http://trilema.com/2013/i-am-the-best-customer-rep-in-the-world/),

Seems that we're having only one lone idiot here, and that's you. Do you see how many people are against you?

Who asked you anything? Speak when spoken to, fuckwit.

@davout I love it how they quote rettardit as the source of the method to avoid doublespends that Satoshi Dice pioneered.

You know, the MPEx Satoshi Dice.

Go make a religion or something

MPOE-PR just likes irritating people. Common sense be damned. 

I had a similar issue. Was 0.20 btc , but it sucks anyway.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=341881.0

Gl snackman.

So this dude's bitcoin arrived too late to be included in the bet, but is being kept as if it had made it in the bet and lost?

For shame.  Shame shame shame.

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.  When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets.  Why?

Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings.  This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers.  The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.   

This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq. 

You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?

Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.

"Would you download a car?"

Sending $9,000 to a random gambling site without reading the rules is stupid.  Blaming others is childish.

Stealing is going in the night while you sleep and breaking into a safe. 

This is you gouging out your eyes and running into a casino and slapping down $9,000 on a roullete machine and then demanding your money back because you didn't know how it worked.

This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.
Is it? I'm not an expert on betting, correct me if I'm wrong.
But seems like they prefer to steal the money.

and FAQ says:

http://bitbet.us/faq/#152
What if I bet after the bet has been satisfied, but before it is actually closed?
Your bet will be refunded, minus BitBet's 1% fee.

Our bets were done BEFORE the bet was closed.

In your roullete comparison, he would be the guy who walked into the casino and handed the dealer $9000 dollars without reading the fine print. Then the dealer turns around and says. "Sorry, you don't get a turn the last spin was 5 mins ago. Tuff luck." If you think that's how normal business works. Your either a crook or delusional.

There are laws to protect customers from these types of scams. Businesses are not allowed to just take your money and not provide the item or service. They can write whatever they like in the rules, it doesn't change that.

There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.

You are roughly in the position of a Colorado bug on a potato plant discussing what "we" should be doing if "we" wish agriculture to succeed.

Shut the fuck up and get lost. You're not even part of Bitcoin in the first place. And the reason Bitcoin doth succeed has a way lot more to do with MP than you can begin to comprehend.

Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.

In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.

I'm not referring to bitcoin or blockchain timing. I talk about bet closed time in bitbet.us. If they just reject those last 30 minute (even confirmed) bets, I think this will keep away cheater's bets and scammers.
I'm sure there's solutions. But seems like they like the actual betting system.

So if BitBet clock shows 10:45, what time is it on arbitrary bet #6705's clock?


The problem with the world is that the clueless are always sure of various things.

You are saying that if the user sent the money without fees there is no way to verify that he sent it at a particular time? If that is so you should have started with that.

I understand your theory in double spending, but if the user sent his BTC from another betting service which he doesn't own, he doesn't control the private keys of that wallet and there is no way he can double spend those coins, or am I missing something here?

Your arguments in this post are usually so emotional that is hard to figure out what you are trying to say. I would suggest you keep your answers in a polite and logical manner. If you actually have a point it will be heard this way. But so far I'm still thinking that the user has a stronger point and its going to take some good reasons for changing my mind.

Would it make it more risky to return all the transactions that had no fee instead of keeping them?

If the user actually double spend his bet after the resolution of the bet is known, wouldn't that bet be qualified as late?

Given your attitude I feel like I'm missing something and it would be much easier if you enlighten us with that.

Gambling is risky but the risk is supposed to be in losing the bets and not getting screwed by the site operator. Having a rule that payments must be confirmed before a bet is resolved to count is perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that refunds of such payments are subject to a small convenience fee (since it may require manual intervention to refund) is also perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that says bets don't count up to X minutes before a bet is resolved is also reasonable.

A price of almost $750 is not $750 though, so unless the bet was placed after the price actually crossed $750 then I don't think it's an exploit - the outcome was still in doubt even if the doubt was very small. Regardless, keeping 100% of the money is stealing, and a wave of people from BitBet IRC chat saying otherwise doesn't change that.

A FAQ is for when people have questions, it's not a must-read for casual users who want to make sure they don't get screwed by awful policies. Even actual must-reads like terms and conditions you must agree to before using a service do not give you the right to steal.

OP, I hope you contact a lawyer if the site continues to refuse to refund you. I bet a judge would see this as stealing, but running this by a lawyer would be the best way to be sure. You're out a significant chunk of change so I believe it could easily be worth it, and you'd be doing the bitcoin community a service.

If bitbet says: bet closed at 10:45 (bitbet time) , then all bets confirmed and received from 10:15 (bitbet time) to ahead would be cancelled and refunded. What's the problem with that?

+1.

I encourage bitbet to resolve this issue. If not, maybe they will end paying x10 times what they have took.

Please upvote this on reddit to alert the wider community:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1r3spb/how_is_this_not_considered_theft_by_bitbet_and_is/

Don't expect BitBet to change a policy that supplies a sizable proportion of the S.BBET dividends.  Maybe you could purchase the rest of the S.BBET shares on the market in order to get a partial refund?

did user as betsofbitco.in for help? they're the ones with the messed up transaction; is that their policy?

How many of the #bitcoin-assets chatters are here because they own shares in BitBet and my complaint threatens their dividends?

Bugpowder is yet another #bitcoin-assets guy (https://www.google.com/search?q=Bugpowder+site%3Alog.bitcoin-assets.com%2F&oq=Bugpowder).
----------------------------------------

Hopefully, they will spread the word that BitBet is a scam site run by thieves.
----------------------------------------

Bitcoin is a distributed system - one which Beans is a part of simply by posting in this forum. Its success does not depend on any one person - that's the point!
----------------------------------------

My opinions on intellectual property law are an unrelated issue, which I'd be happy to discuss in a different thread.
----------------------------------------

I contacted a lawyer that accepts bitcoin :). I'll keep you updated.

Yes, I've been emailing coinjedi and I'm currently waiting on his response to my latest:
https://i.imgur.com/5go2LZ3.png

You do realize no one was able to provide a valid argument which makes bitbet's policy a legit reason for keeping those btc, right? So far in the whole post every time it was questioned all the answers where insults. I hope you can clarify from a technical point of view why this is valid.

I don't think you understand how policies work in court.  A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.

Well, I USED to have respect for you, davout.  Are you involved in this site in any way?

Can you explain how he is a thief? Most of us don't understand that part

Look, it's a hardline stance, but they can discourage late betting this way because it's clearly stated on the website and it's a private business that's not forcing you to use it.  You have the options to use it or not.  If you use it poorly, fuck you.

Snackman got his service provided, because he got the thrill of sending BTC in late, and lost.  Now he has the thrill of putting responsibility elsewhere.  Service fucking rendered.

Had he read the FAQ, which anyone with a brain in their head would do before sending $9.000, he would know that sending bets in late is still GAMBLING with your money.  So, the service was in fact rendered. 

Late betting scammers think you can scrape off the winnings of legit users?   Nope.

A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

So basically, you don't even have a point to your argument. Another comparison that makes zero sense. According to you comparison, customer support is irreverent to business success.

You don't even have a clue who I am. You just presume as usual that you know everything. There's always a few people like you on the forum, self entitled know it all but lacking common sense. You may think your something special but your not. Why don't you stick to posting when you have something that makes sense. Every time I've seen you post anything, it's always swearing and spreading your crack pot ideas. Grow up, get out of your parents house and get a life.

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!

Best of luck to you, getting a lawyer familiar with bitcoin is huge. Let me know if I can help. I don't know if this possibly violates any fraud/theft criminal statutes or if it would be at all practical to pursue them but I wouldn't mind seeing these thieves punished. Most important is that you (and others affected by the same policy) get their money back and that nobody uses this site anymore.

I understand your point, but rejecting the bet because of being late protects the user in the same way than this policy, doesn't it?

Also, if you find a bet you find interesting, but you have your btc on a site, is it such a crime to try to get in if you think the bet is still valid? Wouldn't you assume if you are too late that it will be refunded to you if the place is legit? One can probably think that he will be really late if he transfers the btc to his wallet and then to the site.

And he has no way on proving that he owns such address, but the support from the other site could easily state that he actually owns or not said address, probably they will be more eager to help given that they are the ones that sent the transaction without fees. Wouldn't that be sufficient to entitle him for a refund?

I'm a bitcoin-assets guy, because that's where people that know what's going on in the bitcoin space hang out. That said, I don't currently own shares in any MPEX listed security, nor any other bitcoin denominated security. I don't like the counterparty risk associated with virtual shares in virtual companies in a virtual world now that bitcoins have tremendous fiat value. Everyone is a hustler in the bitcoin space (much like the general financial services space), and its hard to avoid getting burned at least once, particularly since getting legal relief is usually impossible.  10BTC is a small price to pay to learn this lesson, relative to what others have paid in the past (myself included).

Good luck collecting on your non-currency based gambling transaction with a virtual company run out of deep eastern Europe.

Yes, I would be fine with either policy.   This is because I would never send anything to any site (much less $9,000) without reading the fine print.  I don't sweat policies because I read them.

If I find a bet interesting, being a reasonable person, I would send from my blockchain.info hot wallet which contains very little BTC.  Again, because I read the fine print and already know that shitty wallets can't get refunds -- because I ask questions when there is a gray area. 

I would also look at the closing date and make sure I'm in at least a few days securely before bet closing, or I would not bet.  So, no, I wouldn't assume anything, I have made such mistakes in the past and learned from them.

BetsOfBitcoin could not verify identity at all, afaik.  How could they?

Thats the thing, some people take precautions, some not; some use protection, some end up with unexpected kids :P

Or more seriously, some people are adverse to risks, some love them...

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.

According to reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1r3spb/how_is_this_not_considered_theft_by_bitbet_and_is/cdjrb2k), this situation is not rare at all:
Should this thread be moved to the Scam Accusations board?
-------------------------

Alternatively, BitBet could simply refund the money to the withdrawal address that I submitted at time of bet.

My guess because bets are anonymous.  I haven't checked in a year or so but last time I was there you send to a BTC address and if you won, it was sent back.  Never did I need to put in a piece of identifiable information.

I just checked, now you need a login.  They could *probably* do this if they were so inclined.  I'm just trying to figure out why they should when snackman was trying to scam all the legit bettors out of their winnings?

This is apparently not the first (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192905.0), or even the second time (http://bitcoinscammers.com/bitbet-us/), that BitBet has scammed its users.

Hopefully it's the last.

Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

Thats the thing, how you know he was trying to scam the other bettors of their winnings and not trying to place a legit bet? Its a very thin line. I haven't actually check what he bet and at what time, but if the bet was still open at the time he initiated the transfer I don't see how he was doing this; and even if he did initiated the bet late, how do you know he was actually trying to scam and not making an honest mistake?

A good policy will only affect the scammers and not the honest people as well. From what I read here I have a very reasonable doubt he was actually trying to scam the bettors. If someone here can explain with details how he was trying to achieve this I might change my mind, but the system already rejects late bets, how is it that this late bet is different than the others? This is actually the fishy point that keeps bugging me.

Don't get me wrong, I never bet on the betting sites, mainly because I'm too paranoid and most of them look like they where not professionally done. I'm adverse to risks and I think that I'm not only risking in loosing the bet but in being scammed as well. Anyone could actually put up a decently looking betting site and wait for the fish to bet and take their money. I never actually checked them but I saw some fishy sites every now and then posted in the forum. If snackman was actually trying to scam the bettors I think it is bitbet's duty to show irrefutable proof of this; not only because it the right thing to do, but because I'm pretty sure it will affect their reputation if they don't. Right now if you google bitbet scam you will find 61600 results, which 3240 are posts from this forum. At the moment the amount of people adopting btc are comparable to the amount of people buying iphones (keiser's report), if this site wants to capture the emerging market, it should have clear, just and user friendly policies. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of newbie mistakes to be made on a lot of sites related to btc, and if the user actually made an honest mistake then the site is actually scamming the user. Investors of this site should actually be more worried about the site reputation than the measly 10 btc divided threw all of them. I don't actually get how come the support haven't tried to clear this up yet, my only clue is badly paid third party support...

This is at least my point of view, anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong or to show proof the snackman was indeed trying to scam the rest of the bettors.

Seriously, how would you handle the case "someone sends an unconfirmed TX right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided" ?

Refund?
You want to discourage scammers, not have to guess every time whether the request is legitimate or not.

Your reasoning flaw is here, the site can not, and should not have to guess whether the request is legitimate or if a scammer is trying to get a refund on an attempted cheat.
It makes perfect sense from a business perspective to take a very clear position should this kind of stuff arise.

Just add a reasonable fee for this kind of refund, it is more than enough to keep scammers away. Charge, let's say, 5% of the amount received. There is also the case "someone sends a transaction not so right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided", refund at 5% fee, too, obviously.

I can't even start to understand why you think this is not the proper way, and stealing is the correct choice. MP really got a legion of fans.

The underlying theme of any MP-affiliated business is that the rules will be set up to protect that business's bitcoins at all costs, despite their user-unfriendliness. The unfortunate fact is that even though its very unlikely that OP was trying to scam, bitcoinland is full of people that can and do scam any service or person that has an exploitable weakness. The level of fraud among bitcoin users is tremendous, much higher than any other consumer financial environment. Hence, rules that seem reasonable based on real-world experience where perhaps 2% of transactions are attempted fraud leave bitcoin businesses too exposed, as this is an environment where perhaps 20-50% of transactions are attempted fraud.

Refund.

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.  For example, if they bet 10 minutes before the bet ends, only give them 10% of the winnings they would have had if they had bet 100 minutes before the bet ends, and spread the other 90% across to the other winners.  If it's 25 minutes beforehand, give them 25% of the winnings.  Etc, etc.  But if they lose the bet, they lose 100% of their bet.

It's not complicated, and you avoid stealing people's money without good reason.

Again I ask, what is your affiliation with this site?

The operator of bitbet should return the coins and stop treating the FAQ as an excuse to take other people's property.

I am reading the FAQ and if the website is coded this poorly I am amazed anyone in their right mind would use it.

"What if I created a bet address but can't bet right now?

Once you enter a receiving address and are given a send-to address, you have 3 days (72 hours) to send your bet. If your bet does not make it within 72 hours then that address will be reclaimed. BitBet will be unable to send you your BTC back, as they will have probably been allocated to someone else's bet! Always make sure that you send your first bet on a created address within 3 days of its creation. "

You should at least report the domain name for fake details.

http://www.whois.us/whoiscompliance/ComplaintMain.jsp I suggest you report both PoliMedia.us and bitbet.us

Then we can find out who's really behind this scam. As far as I can see they are some failed company  Norsena aka "Polimedia"[1] that's currently in Forfeited Existence[2] in texas. There's no privacy in .us domains. Let's see how soon the site changes domain name lol. polimedia.us points to that joke exchange that also takes most revenue .

Registrant Name: MARTHA MCCULLER
Registrant Organization: NORSENA
Registrant Street: 14781 MEMORIAL DR.
Registrant Street: APT 2454
Registrant City: HOUSTON
Registrant State/Province: TX - See more at: http://www.enom.com/whois/default.aspx?DomainName=PoliMedia.us#sthash.MFi6lY2k.dpuf

Here's the Norsena Co. details
http://www.wysk.com/index/texas/austin/8xt3ltu/norsena-inc/profile
Tax Forfeiture 02/08/2013 02/09/2013

bitbet.us make almost half their income from people like the op. The "Shareholders" aka apologists/paid shills on this thread should consider that and remember that being part of this fraud makes you a co-conspirator.

[1] http://www.enom.com/whois/default.aspx?DomainName=PoliMedia.us
[2] http://direct.sos.state.tx.us/help/help-corp.asp?pg=ov

Yes, refund minus some fee for the inconvenience. I don't see how it's scamming if the bet is at all in question when the transaction was made. If the price is at $749, is it a scam to bet that it will hit $750? What about $740? $700?

It's very simple as I see it, don't count bets that confirm after the bet is over. That way nobody can cheat the system. If someone tries to make a late bet and the transaction doesn't confirm, return the money minus a small fee. That money is not yours to keep, it's not yours at all. And in situations like the one OP bet in, price can move VERY fast and confirmations can take 30 minutes+ even with a generous fee sometimes. In fact I was watching the price that day and I wouldn't be surprised if the price on the exchanges went from ~$700 or so to $750 in a matter of minutes.

Then why is there any worry about last-minute bidders "scamming" other people at all?

We're dealing with mid-intelligence criminals here. MP pays them "dividends" from people she's ripped off and then they slap each other on the back. Circlejerks like that seldom make sense.

All MP's 'businesses' would be in the red if they had to stop stealing. S/he managed to run a company in the real world for how long before going bust? And how many tens of dollars did he/she make in those years?

I used to know a few criminals back in the day and the attitude of MP reminds me of them. They used to say stuff like "Someone leaving a window open deserve to be robbed - the idiots!" or "What did the stupid bitch expect leaving her handbag on the floor?"

Absolutely no difference between those crims and bitbet. The thing about both groups is they prey on people being trusting. They think someone trusting someone else is a fool. I expect MP was abandoned as a child and this is how s/he gets back at the world. Fuck all these criminals. All they ever get is a very short term gain then a life full of misery.

Your own sig admits you are a paid shill.

"Hire me" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240677.0

I wonder how much you got paid for this thread. I doubt you even got a whole bitcoin. You're the bottom feeder that other bottom feeders shit on.

If the result of a bet becomes known prior to the bet deadline, then no further bets should be taken.  People can be free to send more money in, but they would get exactly 0% of the winnings, only having their money refunded.

How is this a hard thing for people to figure out?  I don't get it.

You're an admitted paid shill. Wipe that shit off your lips. I've no interest in reading your thread as it's written by you and you're posting for bitcoin and will post whatever you are paid to post.

Oh we're supposed to expect a WEAK character like you will only expect money to post in your comedy alt not in your serious, honest pankkake account; yet here you are an apologist shill.

I doubt you even understand checkers let alone chess. It's checkmate when I have no more moves.

This is way above your pay grade shitface.

When's your girlfriend back anyway?

I don't have a dog in this race, unlike you bitchboy. I'm here purely because I want to be not because I was paid. My butt is absolutely fine. If it was hurting I'm sure I could pay a shill like you 0.00001bitcoin to kiss it better.

Is there anything you won't do for bitcoin dust? Do you consider yourself a rent-boy or do you have a different name for it? Genuine question.

The BitBet policy needs no "legit reason". It IS the policy. That's it, what BitBet says is what is. No "legit"-ing around by unrelated parties on forums can change what the policy is.

Re-read my posts in this thread and copy them by hand on your notebook. They're not optional for you, they're mandatory.


The only court which might have had any authority here would have been the Rota. Unfortunately, that died. So whatever, GLWT.


From, you know, the contract (http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.BBET).

Corrected for you, running dog. As previously stated I'm only here for my own entertainment. There's no money in it for me

http://www.michellehenry.fr/stupid.jpg


http://trilema.com/category/rota/

But good call, I hear that was the reference.

You happen to be wrong, on both scores. Your wrongness has been happily entered into the record, we can lol at it in a few years, np.

This is why Bitcoin`s lack of a chargeback medium and lack of consumer protections in general is so dangerous; it allows criminal enterprises such as this which are located offshore and away from US jurisdiction to take advantage of consumer trust with very little in the way of counter measures. It`s a major issue that Bitcoin will need to address to remain relevant, IMO.

As for anyone in this thread that actually defends BitBet`s decision to confiscate the OP`s money... if you`re not one of the company `shareholders`  ::) then you really need to get your head checked. I readily admit that I don`t read all 46 pages of Apple`s user consent when I use iTunes, but I would certainly be protected by my bank`s consumer protections if iTunes decided to confiscate my money for some asinine reason. `Oh, that song was only available for a limited time, and we received your payment from your bank after that limit was met. However, we`ll still gladly accept your payment and provide you nothing in return. Sorry, but you`re screwed` Haha, I don`t think so.

Oh sorry, I thought I read that the OP sent the coins while the bet was still active, but the coins were confirmed and arrived after the bet had closed, in which case you certainly agree that his money should be refunded.

But what you`re saying is, his coins arrived to BitBet`s wallet while the bet was still active, and the bet was then lost. Right?

That's right.

Pankakke must either be confused regarding the original issue or he`s intentionally being dishonest. Given his record so far, I`d suppose it`s the latter.

For the record, I agree that a chargeback feature would be difficult or perhaps impossible to implement to the Bitcoin protocol. As George W Bush said, `Freedom isn`t free.` The freedom that comes with Bitcoin is paid by the means of proliferation of scam sites such as BitBet who operate under impunity from the law. Bitcoin is able to operate with low/no transaction fees because there are no services tacked on to protect consumers, which should be a reminder that users should take maximum precautions when dealing with any merchant or service provider with the Bitcoin protocol, as they can essentially confiscate your coins for any arbitrary reason.

Bets that arrive after the result is known should be refunded. If the bet placed was actually:
It should have said as much on the front page of the wager.

Your site also allows users to lose bitcoin wagering on the winning bet. To whom is that bitcoin distributed?

You see what I mean? If you give arguments and reason people will respect you. Given that you actually are a representative of bitbet.us, right? If your only answer are insults when people question a policy hidden under FAQs, the whole community will consider you as a scammer (no user has the obligation to read faqs to use a service btw...)

As far as I can tell, the dissenters in this thread are either confused, exposed (i.e. shareholders), or bribed. There has been a lot of name calling, but there has not been one coherent argument as to why my bet should not be refunded.

I run www.bitcoinpunter.com
My traffic is pleasing...I come out on the first page when people google all of the most common phrases regarding where they can bet with bitcoin.
What I don't have as yet, is a section telling people the outfits I think they should avoid.
I think I'll be doing one now though. and I certainly know who is going to be the first one mentioned after reading this thread.

Now Bitbet have a good opportunity to use the common sense , refund the money, and change his betting rules to avoid this issue to happen again in the future.

Having a policy also does not give bitbet the right to steal funds, the same as it wouldn't give bitbet the right to murder people.  Wrong and unlawful is still wrong and unlawful regardless of what policy you have in place.

Because fuck you, that's why. What more do you need?

You're the dissenter. Stop trying to misrepresent yourself as some sort of authority. BitBet is the authority on this matter.

You're the scumbag. Stop trying to misrepresent yourself as some sort of victim. BitBet is the victim, and the fact that it's the victim of your idiocy rather than deliberate malfeasance (you claim) makes no difference.


Except murdering people falls under the jurisdiction of fiat courts, whereas BitBet is its own jurisdiction, stemming from the complete immunity of all things Bitcoin to all things fiat.

I think this thread's poll and its posts' general sentiment establish who is and is not a dissenter beyond a reasonable doubt.

Please explain how my conduct could be "deliberate malfeasance". I bet "YES". The bet's end date for a "NO" resolution was April 17th, 2014. I could not have pulled off a double-spend scam.

Your conduct could be deliberate malfeasance quite simply: anyone at any time for any reason can introduce a transaction with no fees that will take forever to confirm. BitBet can in no way influence this, it's fully in the control of the transaction author.

With control comes responsibility, and with responsibility the presumption of willfulness. So, if your transaction doesn't behave as it should, you're prima facie trying to steal something.

Their policies are predatory at the very least. When there is a high network txn load it is highly likely that even txn's with fees will be delayed. Perhaps this is their way of deterring sophisticated double spend attacks, but it hurts the average user way more.

They are thieves no different from the rest of the ponzi scammers out there; and mark my words, don't be surprised when they disappear with everyone's bitcoins one day (or they get "hacked").

Nobody forces you to bet on events that have just closed you know. That's the gist of this debate: somebody decided they have the god given right to bet on a proposition once it was clear which way it'd resolve, and then sucked at even trying to implement this in practice.

The part where they sucked at the implementation is given undue weight, what's important is really the other half: don't be that asshole that looks at a bet for six months and sends a no fee tx once the resolution is imminent.

Take a risk, that's what betting exists to reward.

Judging by the previous posts you also have regular BitBet users against you. Makes sense because people that bet later take less risk and dilute their winnings. The weighting of bets should kick in here, but it seems that's not enough so those users are fine with the policy as they regard late bettors as <insert whatever insult you want from a previous post>.

In my opinion it would be far better to have different closing criteria for bets. In this specific instance the bet could've been closed when the price crossed $7XX dollars at the reference exchange. By using TX confirmation times and trade data you can verify which bets were placed before closing. Of course that would be some more work, but it can be automatised. If the owner's really want to protect early bets from late bets, than something like this should be the way to go. But clearly, the current practise / policy is devious self-righteousness, to say the least.

However, BitBet is fully in control of whether it chooses to steal or return late bets.

Testimonium nihil ad rem et ad absurdum est. BitBet delenda est.

It's not a "god given right". It's a "right" given by your website allowing my bet to be placed. As you said, "with control comes responsibility".

You know delenda is a feminine form?

OP has done mistake by trusting and making a big amount bet with bitbet.us.

But whatever it's morally wrong to keep someone's hard earned money just because he forgot something.
We are humans and humans do mistakes.

@MPOE, Did you have ever seen someone keeping other peoples car because they forgot to read "no parking" warning?

No.

It's also sad that a staff member is taking side of accused party.

All the people who think that MOPE should keep this users BTC are pathetic assholes, I will hope someone will do the same thing with them someday.

I have read whole thread and seriously people are acting like 12 year old kids.

Well that's simply not true, but I guess you'll find that out in a courtroom.  Have fun.  ;)

anybody who uses bitbet.us after reading this thread has got to have stockholm syndrome. the owner, or whoever this douchebag representing the site is, clearly does not respect his customer base.


your site must not be doing well, if 10btc means this much to you.

get fucked, bitbet

And if they did this exact same thing to you @OP

And you won the bet would you be complaining?

I didn't think so... Take it as a loss and go cry in a corner :)

I don't understand - please be more clear about your hypothetical situation and consider being less rude.

Gotta stand for something in this life.

If you don't understand, it's because you don't understand proper English... Let's put this into children form shall we?


If you would have won because your TXID was delayed, or in a manner that which you would have got the "WIN" because of this problem, I think you would be satisfied, and not calling him a scammer.

So stop trying to get money back because of your incoherence.

#ScammerTag #SnackMan #REQUESTED

FYI: mods don't do scammertags anymore. feel free to negtrust someone WITH HARD EVIDENCE.

Rude.

How would I have won "because my transfer was delayed"? I placed my bet before the satisfaction of the bet statement.

No, you have not.

If you had, your bet would have been refunded.

It's one thing to be clueless, it's another to lie about it.

So many errors in a single quote.. let's list few of them.

You can't have a TXID delayed, just because the ID there stands for IDentifier. What you can get is a transaction that either takes some time to CONFIRM or does not confirm at all, which is a different matter and unrelated to what you are trying to claim. After broadcasting a transaction, BitBet would take just a few seconds to notice the transaction, but it would wait till it got confirmed in order to accept the bet.

So, no, the imaginary situation you are pointing out doesn't exist. Time to learn a bit more about bitcoins.

No one here is trying to get the money back on a bet that was lost.

The OP didn't start this thread to call the service a scam.

Why would him stop trying to get his bitcoins back ?

The site sucks in the first place. Why not model it after InTrade`s site, where users can sale stakes in their position? For example, if there is only 10 minutes left and an outcome looks almost certain to happen, you can sale a $0.01 position that states it won`t happen. Have each stake settle at $10 so if you`re right, you would then win $9.99, but if you`re wrong, you only lose $0.01. Likewise, if something is almost certain to happen, you can buy such a stake for $9.99, but then you only stand to gain $0.01 if you`re right. You can adjust the amounts accordingly depending on how likely/unlikely you believe an outcome to be until the last minute. Didn`t anyone use Intrade?

It`s preposterous to hear anyone affiliated with this site claim that users such as the OP are trying to `scam` other users by betting at the last minute. That`s how BitBet`s POS system is designed, for christs sake.

If the site owners are concerned, then they shoulder the burden of fixing it, not the users.

I'll rephrase, because we disagree on the definition of 'placed': I initiated transfer of my bet before the satisfaction of the bet statement. This could be verified by coinjedi if he timestamps transfer requests on Bets of Bitcoin.

This, a thousand times.

Well put.

This was done to death (http://trilema.com/2013/least-likely-to-succeed-character-the-upseller/). Read more, opine less.


We don't "disagree". You're trying to introduce the moment when you signed the check as relevant in the discussion. Your payment happens once the bank has received it, not before.

What you meant to do, and what you thought were doing are immaterial in this discussion. Nobody has the time, or the interest, nor could ever be paid enough to care.

All that matters is what you do. Learn this already.

I used to think MPOE-PR was rude but worth listening to nevertheless, now I think he/she/it is just nasty, unscrupulous, and dishonest. I'm never using any service remotely associated with MPOE-PR and I hope others follow suit. It is mind boggling that that Bitbet's (and it's shareholders/representatives) response to this situation is to insult and berate snackman and anyone who dare come to his defense rather than just refund his bet and reconsider its policies, like any business that cares about its reputation and longevity would. This is not the behavior of an honest company but rather of scammers and bullies.

You are ugly and your mother dresses you funny.

I already had that username on ignore, so came to the not listening decision long ago. I had to unhide to see what this thread was about.

I initially thought from the title that someone was at fault and wanted to be paid winnings from a bet they didn't enter in time.

This is not the case, the money was sent to the site, delayed in confirmation and not entered into a bet, and then kept by the site operator. Stolen.

The "terms" that allege that the owner can do this are unconscionable, and no court of law would find on the side of the site owner. Scammer tags deserved.

We need not just a user reputation, but a site reputation feature. It's pretty amazing looking at old forum posts and old correspondence how just about everyone has turned 'scammer' and run.

Keeping for later, you never know.

You're massive bleeding cunt and I hope somebody robs your shit website for every coin you have.

No need to stoop to MPOE's level.

And yes I agree a site reputation feature would be nice, there are some places that already do this but I'm not sure if there are any specifically for the bitcoin economy.

Yeah, a site reputation feature would be great.

The problem with this derp is this: you bunch of fucktards can't attack MP's rep, in any conceivable way. If there's some sort of herp reputation site where reputable sites are maligned by idiots just like you, the only net result will be that actual scammers will benefit from the ensuing confusion, which will basically boil down to more fucktards just like you getting hurt. Except then it won't be because you're stupid directly, it'll just be because you were stupid a while back and got stuck.

Which I suppose is how the US folk ended up with their current US government in the first place. So have at.


If you think what's keeping MP's sites untouched by scummy fucks (just like you) is the fact that he's nice to them...heh.

You're not stealing from MP because he doesn't let you, not because you wouldn't if you could.

Regardless of what you think of bitbet's behavior, this snackman guy is an asshole.  Is there a tag for that?

Mtgox price hits 750  (Bet is decided)
Nov. 18, 2013  21:25 GMT
http://api.bitcoincharts.com/v1/trades.csv?symbol=mtgoxUSD&start=1384809900


Nov. 18, 2013  21:42 GMT  (Snackman tries to rip off other bettors)
https://blockchain.info/tx/2af75fb4e50a14bf247575bf426615d01f9d6db4d88dc0668d27c88259f68691

Trying to bilk a parimutuel bet after the result is known is very scummy.

The price needed to go above $750 which happened Mon, 18 Nov 2013 22:58:29 GMT.

how many times does it have to be said? it is the responsibility of the POS system to prevent this.

it is no more of a scam than if i submitted a lottery ticket after the numbers had been announced. the lottery company would have to be really fucking stupid to award me the jackpot, and somebody would have to be really fucking stupid to claim i was trying to scam them.

it is trivial to stop taking bets once the bet has closed. it should be expected that some bets will receive wagers when closed. a proper POS system will handle this eventuality by refunding the coins.

unfortunately in this case, POS seems to stand for "piece of shit" rather than "point of sale"

so is this your business model? steal from people who use your site, then redistribute some of that money to "shareholders" (paid shills) to attempt to keep your reputation afloat by continually reposting arguments that have already been thoroughly deconstructed?

You don't get a say in allocating responsibilities here. Why do you have trouble with this simple notion?

Ah, good point.  I am sure snackman realized that distinction and was not trying to ripoff the other parimutuel bettors... (where's the sarcmark on this thing?)

mike_c: Not only did you bring up an objection that has, as octopus said, already been thoroughly deconstructed multiple times, but you also deliberately distorted the truth. Proof (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-11-2013#383942):
I didn't appreciate your rudeness on November 18th in the #bitcoin-assets IRC, and I don't appreciate your slimy conduct in this thread.

Here's my email to coinjedi on November 18th, with screenshot of timestamped bet transfer from Bets of Bitcoin (times in EST: GMT-5):
http://puu.sh/5qhHF/018eabfd40.png

You fundamentally misunderstand what "deconstructed" means. Hint: it's not a synonym of "destroyed", it's a way to say "taken apart so as to better understand it".

I can appreciate your adolescent desire to impress, with stolen philosophical vocabulary, with stolen bits of Latin in the wrong declensions and so on and so forth. You are however quite outside of your intellectual depth in this adventure, and a more modest attitude, better aligned with your actual abilities, accomplishments, and experience would probably work a lot better.

Provided, of course, that your goal isn't to be our little special lolcow.

god, you are such an insufferable faggot.

yes, the argument was deconstructed you massive fucking cunt. it was analyzed piece-by-piece, and shown to be wrong.


funny, because you're the one typing like you just raped a thesaurus.

dono but fuckface here managed to pull it off

Please don't respond to insults/trolling. That's what they want.

He's just a running dog of the chauvinist male pigs that's all.

I think that place a amount of BTC much larger than actual bet for and against, just before the deadline, being sure to win is an abuse of the service.  It's quite not fair if they really keep the transfered BTC for themselve, I'm not sure about this policy and their action.

But, I you want to bet in BetsOfBitco.in, the BTC should be in your account wel before placing a bet.

I've lose many time large part of my winnings, due to abuse.  Someone placing a bet 10 or 100 times bigger than the actual bet in place, just before the deadline, being sure of the win is in fact an abuse of the service.

I hope anyone will be able to recover their coin, because IIRC, their pratice is as unfair as the user who try to abuse.

Wighing you all the best !

Seems Mr. P's latest touches upon this thread's particular...flavor.

Bitcoin as replacement for the electoral system (http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-as-replacement-for-the-electoral-system/).

This is just stealing, pure and simple.
$8000 too!

Does Snackman have any legal avenues he can go down in order to get his dough back?

I have now removed the BitBet banner from my website....I urge others to do the same.

I hope this is resolved, as it removes most of my interest in bitcoin as a means of transactions if the main aspect of bitcoin is the sense of community and personal responsibility, and the community has failed to justly take down such an obvious scam site and/or pressured the company into refunding the man his money for a service not rendered, then there is no honor among any of us.

There is no honor among capitalists. If you want honor, watch The Last Samurai :)

I'm in contact with a lawyer right now - I'll keep you updated. What other sites run BitBet banners/ads?

Where else should I post this to draw more attention to BitBet's scam?

You could try news.ycombinator.com

You better miss that thread again. The guy that started it is a scammer associated to the casinobit scam (observe how this now proven scam is not shown as scam in his list), check https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=171094.1240 for the latest posts (you won't find tmbp in these last posts, not sure if it is obvious to you why that is the case).

You started fine by showing bitbet stole you, now you are no longer doing fine. Focus on your case.

Fair enough, I'll remove the post.

Is there a trustworthy bitcoin scam business listing?

Coindesk.com have two articles mentioning bitbet as betting site (u can try to search there in home page). Would be interesting if they know how bitbet works in reality.

Also, I'm going to talk with some friends to write an article in their blogs about this case, and ask them to propagate it in facebook and twitter.

Did u know? if u google for bitbet , this thread is showed in 4th position.

Man, the entire world is going to know how they are. I'm not going to stop until we get our money back.

Like I said before, the entire world can know just by going to http://bitbet.us/faq/.  Because it's public record along with confiscated bets, in their monthly report.

Bitbet.us's owner is (thankfully) entirely correct here:

"The more important point, and where Bitcoin really shines, is that it doesn’t matter what they or anyone else would rather or wouldn’t rather. The owners of the service decide how it works, it is strictly their empire to judge if the increased fees are justified by the increased complexity. If they make the right call they will prevail in the marketplace - over the dead bodies of the butthurt idiot parade. This will be a good outcome for society as a whole, because people will have a good service they can use no matter what anyone else says. If they make the wrong call they will fail in the marketplace, and this will be a good outcome for society as a whole, because entrepreneurs will have one good example to guide their future behaviour by."

The market has decided and will continue to decide that BitBet.us functions very well and profitably for those who take the time to use it correctly.  

This customer base will continue to increase as you freely advertise for it -- as knowledgeable users will know a good thing when they investigate it.  As many have and continue to do.  

Let the free market descide, but don't mis-represent the event.  There was no theft, no scam, etc.  There was a user who did NOT read the instructions and made multiple mistakes sending his coins to the 'confiscated' bin by his ignorance.  His ignorance is not a defense.

Like has been mentioned before, stating that you are going to steal someone's else fund doesn't make it right.

The service is free to do anything it wants, the user is free to seek legal help for any events that occur.

It is unlikely that anything will happen here in favor to the OP, but it would surely be a step forward to show that fully unregulated business stealing from users are still subject to the laws from the real world even if they are using bitcoins.

I asked nicely, in various emails and I waited patiently. I'm not a rude person. They rejected to refund me all times.
Do you expect me to just accept the situation and to be quiet? I'm defending my money like you would do.

The expectation is that you learn from your mistakes. Other than that, you can be as loud as you wish, tho it does cross into ridiculous after a while.


The idea is to defend afore rather than after. In the better words of our esteemed leader (http://trilema.com/2012/gpg-contracts/),

Did you write that? `the point of the sword of some blind demigoddess are a thoroughly fascinating turn of events` lmao.
It sounds like it was written by a machine trying to imitate human writing. The prose is awful and has no relevance to the discussion here. Nobody is signing any contract when they use bitbet. You seem to have this misdirected sense of entitlement and perverse belief that a FAQ constitutes a legally binding agreement between parties. You`re objectively wrong regardless of all these inane, meandering articles you keep referencing to.

They don't care about being wrong. They care about $7000. That's how small time they are.

Both of the scam threads could've been great advertising for a great service but instead they've been small time, a shit service but they've got their 7k. As I said fairly early, they are bottom feeders.

The op was a naive fool dealing with these people in the first place imho. They make almost 50% of their money tricking naive/ignorant people out of their money. Feel sorry for the op but he's never going to get his money back. The operators of the site made it clear they see all deposits as fools sending them money. They could have various warning re bets but they literally banked on people not reading their faq.

They are scum, nothing more nothing less.

These aren't being handled by Ms. Helen Waite anymore?

I heard if you wanted a refund you should go to Helen Waite.

As your literacy blossoms you may come to discover that generally when you don't understand a text it's not really the author's fault.


Page three stuff? This thread is becoming a sort of lulz Mecca is it.

I'm seriously only reading pages 1, 3, and 12 of this stuff

Are you not able to read? Most people here won't read through all 12 pages. And I did, and that's why I made the comment I did. Did you read that?

I find two good things coming from this thread, that proves in my mind bitbet is a smalltime scam operation.

This thread is 4th on google, and with numerous threads of similar accusations right underneath it.
The company will not refund such a small amount of money. Good companies go through arbitration and have a settlement, not drag whole entire communities through the mud and smear every person who doesn't bow down to your illegal practice.

So enjoy your $7000, maybe the fbi will come busting down your door. who knows?

Well, the way the US is run these days, maybe it'll come busting down your door. Even odds.


Funny you should say that.


Exactly. It's here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.msg3660984#msg3660984).


You are very much confused as to what "whole communities" means. Hint: it's not you. It's not the other idiot and his coupla socks.

Good thing I'm not talking about you.

lulz, i think ill start a bet on bitbet.us, like the multiple ones I have in the past with zero issues.

Whether or not you've had issues with bitbet in the past, they did steal from me, and to support them is to support thieves.

I vote yes!

and if your nit picky and would like to change your subject its 11k now that btc has risen

You don't get to vote about what happens to other people's money.

This thread in a nutshell:

1) snackman attempts to scam the holders of a contract on Bitbet.us by betting after the contract closes. snackman sends his BTC to Bitbet.us, putting his coins in their control to be handled by the rules of the service.
2) snackman's BTC do not arrive before the bet is resolved and are kept by Bitbet.us, as is the policy of the service.
3) snackman creates 13 pages of butthurt on Bitcointalk and creates a poll that means something only in his own head. Refuses to take any responsibility for himself in regards to reading the rules or attempting to scam other users on Bitbet.us.

I do not hold any shares of S.BBET but after reading this thread I wish I did.

The policy is ridiculous - BitBet rewards itself for its inability to craft a proper, fair betting system by stealing.

Judging by how the price has been going, you're not the only one.

By sending your BTC you accepted the contract, however ridiculous you think it is. It really is that simple. A scam is when a contract is broken. There is no scam here because no contract was ever broken. MPEX/BBET did exactly what they said they would do and did not back down even with mounting pressure from people using their emotions as an argument, which is very admirable to their shareholders.

This is exactly how a company dealing in BTC should behave.

An FAQ is not a contract. It is a scam because no service was rendered to me and my bitcoin was stolen. I have not used emotions as my argument, only the fact that BitBet has done no work to deserve my 10 bitcoin.

Actually, in the world of Bitcoin, where there are no chargebacks or other ways to "idiot proof" the system, any information the service makes publicly available is part of the contract you accept when you send coins to their public key. I'm curious what else you think the contract should be. You do realize the Bitcoin protocol has no way to make sure you read (or even see) a contract before you make a transaction? Therefore it is your, and only your, responsibility to read all information about a service before you send it your coins.

The service laid out in their terms was rendered to you. The service was having your coins distributed among S.BBET's shareholders. That might not be the service you expected, but that's what they said they would do before you sent the transaction.

Just admit your error and move on and let this die. It is obvious there is no way they will refund you and any uninvolved observer can see you were trying to cheat the other bet contract holders and were dealt with reasonably purusant to the terms you agreed to.

That's actually exactly opposite of how things work. You've done no work to deserve a return on your 10 BTC.

You're looking at it from the perspective of the way business is done in the real world right now and ignoring you used bitcoin. If there were chargebacks or you had deposited with paypal or you were dealing with a business that isn't about tricking idiots out of their money then you'd have your money now. But you used bitcoin and with a business that despises you.

I don't think it's fair what happened but caveat emptor should always be in your mind when spending and more so when spending bitcoin.

You can trash bitbet all you want and I agree with you for the most part but if I were you I'd be trying to negotiate a settlement. They aren't a bricks and mortar business and have no fear of you suing them. Instead seek a mutually beneficial resolution.

As far as I can tell, the substance of your argument as to why I don't deserve my money back is "finders keepers losers weepers" - not a reputable way to conduct business - to say the least.

Mate, they don't care. They think you deserve to be ripped and have no interest in being 'reputable'. Until you understand that they are just going to taunt you.

This sort of self-centered mentality is entirely out of place here. People will have to change and overcome their idiocy so as to accommodate Bitcoin. It's not in any way the case that Bitcoin will have to change to accommodate people's idiocies.

After reading, all this amounts to is snackman asking for a donation from bibet.  I think he'll have better luck from his numerous supporters here.  What say you guys help him out.   ;D

Well said

You know, all of this reminds me of a certain someone else's insane theories.

Agreed

On the other hand the BitBet operators are strictly following contracts between themselves, shareholders, and bettors.

The action that creates a valid Bitcoin transaction is called a signature for a reason. In this case snackman signed a transaction to a recipient who had already GPG signed a contract with shareholders describing exactly how this situation would be handled.

This seems like as good a thread as any to bring this up:



What exactly are you agreeing to, if anything, Bitcoin Scammer? Did you even read the posts you quoted, because they both contradict each other exactly.

Please convince me your only purpose in posting on Bitcointalk is not to promote your horrible site for ad revenue.

I find it amazing that 28.6% of the 105 voters think Bitbet's behaviour is acceptable and that they shouldn't return snackman's bitcoin. They MUST have a vested interest surely.
Thank God 71.4% think otherwise.
For a while I thought the world was going mad.

As has already been said, a FAQ is not a contract and users should not have to read an entire FAQ to make sure they don't get swindled by gotchas. FAQs are for when people have questions (which are frequently asked), not mandatory reading. A terms and conditions that are presented or clearly linked to on each bet page would be a different story. Better yet would be an actual contract. Snackman signed a transaction, not a contract. And even then, contracts don't make swindling acceptable.

Also I don't understand why the recipient (bitbet in this case) signing a contract with shareholders has anything to do with how they handle customers. They still have an obligation to treat customers honestly and fairly. If part of their deal with shareholders was that they would accept user deposits and then one day close down and run away with those deposits, it wouldn't excuse that behavior.

I get that bitcoin is caveat emptor, and one could fault snackman for not being careful about vetting BitBet and going over their policies with a fine-tooth comb before he sent them money. That doesn't make what BitBet did alright, and snackman is now doing the right thing by warning others about BitBet's unscrupulous practices. Personally, I like to see people get their wealth through voluntary trade and ethical behavior, and there's nothing ethical or voluntary about advertising a betting service and then confiscating a bet without delivering any service simply because of a cockeyed policy buried in a FAQ.

Far and away the best post in this whole thread.

A very valid point.

If an FAQ isn't a contract then what is it when no contract is present?  And if no contract existed why would anyone be obligated to do anything?  Contracts in bitcoin are useless because there's no 3rd party authority that can ever enforce it.  Snackman basically called a bookie and said I want to bet.  Bookie said ok but make sure you get me the money BEFORE the game starts.  He said ok.  Nothing happened.  Sometime next day the money showed up.   ???   Now he can ask for anything he wants but bitbet doesn't owe him anything.

A FAQ maybe?

No contract = no obligations.  Be in this new world or the old one.  What's the point of irreversible transactions if you want to reverse them later?

HE's Right you know

http://emob327.photobucket.com/albums/k466/IdleMindzMEG/GIFs/HesRightYouKnowMorganFreeman_zps8afb3143.jpeg

have the victim file a complaint

Where?

Hahaha, oh wow...

Sorry for your loss, OP, but thanks for opening this thread.

I considered placing a bet on BitBet, by pure coincidence found this thread, and guess what: no chance I'll put any amount into that shady business.

What an utterly retarded defence by mpoexyzwhatever... "we put that into the FAQ, so it's alright". If my local supermarket adds the line "We reserve the right to rape your ass at any moment convenient to us before, during or after your groceries shopping" to its TOS, I'd hardly go there again. Why should a Bitcoin based business be treated any different? Right, I know why: delusions of grandeur on the side of the owner might have something to do with it.

+1. I'm glad this thread saved at least one potential victim from supporting this crooked business.

I had their banner on my website at www.bitcoinpunter.com but removed it as soon as I saw this thread.
To think I might have sent some poor innocent there.
 :o

You don't need a contract to have obligations.

Example:  You hit a kid on a bike with your car while driving.  You are now obligated to pay for his medical bills.  No contract, but you have an obligation.

Example 2:  Someone leaves their purse under a park bench, which you find.  You are obligated to turn it in to the police or find the rightful owner.

Example 3:  Someone deposits $10,000 into your bank account instead of their own by mistake.  You are obligated to report the discrepancy to ensure the money gets back to the right person.

Everyone who supports this site is a scumbag in my book.

So then the proper thing to do, since he obviously missed the bet deadline, is to refund the bet, NOT steal his money.

Since you're so obviously much better informed than us ...

(heeey! that's sarcasm! did you notice? in fact I don't believe for one second you're better informed, but I'm pretending to believe that. cool, huh?)

... why don't you tell us how that "scam" would work, in practice.


All I can see so far is a website/service operator with a seriously fucked up TOS, and a (at worst) careless bettor. Wanna guess who I'll side with if that correctly describes the case?

It's not at worst a careless bettor but at best a careless bettor.  At worst a "scammer".  Actually more of a post bettor.  And bitbet just like a regular casino has every right to fight that.

Shilling on here softened the blow though, didn't it? You lost money because you are a shit gambler but were offered a way to lower your losses and here you are.

Fact is bitbet are criminals and justifying their criminality by saying "oh but it's bitcoin and a new paradigm - we get to steal now coz it's in our faq."

Stealing is stealing and that's all that matters. What'll be funny is when they fuck you over like they fuck everyone. How much in fiat did you get paid, $50? In terms of whore, you are in the gutter.

Shareholders...more like co-conspirators. What's the bitbet position on aml? Oh it doesn't have one! Take you money while you can it'll be laughing boy pankkake who will be left holding the bag and he'll be thrilled that he was given the responsibility.

Quick recap: Those defending the decision to keep the coins are...


1) a user with a -11 trust rating

2) the owner of the site keeping the coins

3) someone claiming the bettor transferred the coins as part of a scam, but who is unwilling (or unable) to specify how that scam would have worked.


Bitcoin's finest! Absolutely.

Well hell... I thought I could just keep watching this thread without comment, but it grows more painful.

The problem is you are trying to put MP into your world, and MP and his creations exist in his world. In other words, you lack the MP-ethos to assess the criteria for judgement.

MP-ethos? Give this a read for starters - http://trilema.com/2012/gpg-contracts/

Whether you agree or disagree is moot. As stated in the link, "and so rationally my best choice is to actually live up to the deal, whatever it may be." - However, the deal has already been defined and MP is simple living "up to the deal".

If you don't agree? That's fine, that simple means, in the MP-ethos, that you give MP negative trust. End of story.

Boys, we struck gold! ... Comedy gold.

Let me see if I get this right: in order to fairly judge the actions of the website owner, I first need to read his personal delusional rant treatise on morality?

Sure. Makes perfect sense to me.

"Dear society! You might think I'm guilty of theft, but in reality I'm just following my own rigorously laid out moral framework. Don't you judge me according to your boring old conventional ideas of what is right and wrong... that shit simply doesn't apply here."

It's funny but that's how they are making their money. You pay 20 btc to join the cult and then the only profits you make are from things like this.

Pancake or whatever his name is has tried prostitute himself on this forum multiple times. He get's paid dust and he's getting ripped off too but he's a moron.

The business model is there's no shortage of morons. I can't disagree but I feel they could make more more in other ways. But fuck it i suppose, why bother playing fair when there's an endless amount of people to rip off.
For me it's about human morals

http://www.bitcoincasinopro.com/file-a-complaint/ (http://www.bitcoincasinopro.com/file-a-complaint/)

THey are plastered all over the net as a scam. I'm sure they have taken a bad hit already

Mircea popescu is very well known for this kind of attitude, someone willingly trusting his money to a service operated by Mircea (such as BitBet) should be ready to face the consequences.

And ignorance is not an excuse in my book, one should investigate who is behind a certain service before trusting their hard earned money to a third party.

Plus, most of services Mircea operates are illegal in Romania. His public identity is very well known. If somebody feels he has been scammed just report him.

Back before the time when people bought a cup of coffee with a credit card, a time when credit cards were not in general use, people asked their neighbors for advice on where to spend their hard earned money.

Is the lumber at the hardware store good? Are the butcher's scales accurate?

When credit cards came into general use, it became less important to assess the trustworthiness of the individual you were doing business with. Have you ever purchased something on the internet from a company you knew nothing about? I have. And I know, because I'm using a credit card, that if the company fails to deliver I'll get my money back. Because I can use the chargeback.

Bitcoin doesn't work that way, or at least not without escrow transactions. Bitcoin requires a higher level of forethought. Thought for security and thought for trust.

The above two posters are right, of course. It's about whether you can trust a particular vendor or service.

And this is exactly what this thread is about: Establishing (again, I suppose) that there is a noticeable lack of trust in BitBet and MP.


Also: Merry Christmas to you all :D

And honestly, we should keep bumping this thread until BitBet is gone.  Make sure as many people hear about these scammers as possible.

Webster's definition of trust.  -belief that someone or something is reliable, good, honest, effective, etc.
We can leave the good vs evil debate in Gods hands but the rest fits - bitbet is reliable, effective, and honest.  Every time I see this thread it makes want to go bet there.  Thanks for bumping it.

You are one of a few who feels this way.  I guarantee that this thread is preventing more people from visiting BitBet than it is bringing in.  Please, continue to gamble away your BTC.  ;)

Spot on my friend.

give it a rest. no-one takes you seriously. you're just a running dog yapping around your big hero. we can read the blogs where you fawn over your hero.

you're pathetic tbh. keep sucking your master's cock, bitchboy
http://trilema.com/2013/the-wonderful-powers-of-make-believe/

Bitbet pay you to defend them: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240677.0 , so your arguments are not impartial.

I don't even care if they change, you get one shot in my opinion as far as btc goes. Sellers get the same shot buyers do.

Good point, I wrote that a while ago and since then I've seen that the site operators are just downright unscrupulous and I wouldn't give them my business on this or any other site they may own. The way this has been handled is an embarrassment, and of course they still haven't returned the coins. However, if this were handled in a much different way and the policy were changed then I wouldn't mind using this site, but it's too late for that now in my opinion.

Wow... this made a most entertaining read after a long Friday !

It also inspired me to do some digging and for anyone interested from the current FAQ :
http://bitbet.us/faq/ (http://bitbet.us/faq/)


According to their November statement those 10 BTC are here and they aren't alone :
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-november-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-november-2013-statement/)


So "gracious donations to shareholders" amounts to 71.3% of total revenue.

The expenditures show as follows :


The profit without those "gracious donations" would be 1.07725342 BTC so there is no surprise there has been no refund or change of policy.

Checking back through history was straight forward though I lacked the credits so I had to rely on the comments where the results are handily re-posted. Well, for the most part anyway !

January 2013 : ?
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-january-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-january-2013-statement/)
PGP Encrypted comment so shame there ! None of the rest were though.

February : "Profit : 5.44167918 BTC to be distributed as dividend."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-February-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-February-2013-statement/)
Not bad though back a year ago not much in USD.

March : "Profit : 50.1472201 BTC to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-march-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-march-2013-statement/)
This is the first month our friend "gracious donations to shareholders" turns up and it nets 23.23986348 BTC of the total Profit.

April : "Profit : 41.44359701 BTC to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-april-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-april-2013-statement/)
This month the "donations" amount to 25.80892161 BTC of the total profit.

June : "Profit : 8.80204166 BTC to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-june-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-june-2013-statement/)
A bit of a low result for June but then the "donatations" box held just 0.000009 BTC

July : "Profit : 5.75330454 BTC to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-july-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-july-2013-statement/)
Another low month with "donations" down to 0.07799481 BTC

August : "Profit : 2.69851570 BTC to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-august-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-august-2013-statement/)
Again, hardly any profit with the "donations" box down to 0.002 BTC

September : "Profit : 3.85465257 BTC to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-september-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-september-2013-statement/)
Similar to the last few months here with "donations" down to 0.061 BTC

October : "Profit : −2.4836974 BTC which will be carried over as a charge on the next month’s statement."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-october-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-october-2013-statement/)
Ok so no profit at all in October and in fact it's a loss so I'm guessing things would be looking a bit bleak.

November : "Profit : 23.1363282 BTC, to be distributed as dividends."
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-november-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-november-2013-statement/)
However November worked out but only really due to those "donations" which amounted to 22.05907478 BTC

December : ?
http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-december-2013-statement/ (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-december-2013-statement/)
Nothing yet but the above link in a few days.

Just to close this I'd like to add that I really don't care what anyone says about me.
I'm clearly new here as you can see from my profile so I have no reputation to gain or loose from this.

Edit :
Spelling or grammar corrections are of course appreciated.
I can already see (and have corrected) where I used "Check" where I should have used "Checking".

Wow good research. A company that builds its profits off of confiscating bets from its users... no wonder they (and their shareholders) are so defensive about it.

Bitbet has been downgraded to D for theft

Just doing my duty to keep this thread in the public eye... carry on!

Is this still dragging on ? I cannot see how this benefits BitBet in anyway, even if for some reason Bitbet thinks the guy does not deserve to be refunded, surely you must have some business sense, reach a compromise with the guy and move on.

I'm fairly certain that is exactly what they are lacking, and thus why they must resort to scamming to make any profits.

I think it's extremely important to share feedback so folks from all over the web understand the importance on why one should avoid a selective rogue company like Bitbet. Please provide your rating and feedback of Bitbet.us at http://www.bitcoincasinopro.com/reviews/bitbet/ (http://www.bitcoincasinopro.com/reviews/bitbet/)

You obviously have no idea about business. Part one is in the published statement for November (http://trilema.com/2013/bitbet-november-2013-statement/):


Part two is in this bet (http://bitbet.us/bet/619/bitcoin-difficulty-at-or-above-2b-before-feb/). Find any one Las Vegas bookie that took the equivalent of 460 BTC in a single bet this year and we may talk business. As things are so far however, BitBet is the king of the hill, in no small part because it did the right thing when confronted with you derps.


Yes, but then again you're an idiot.


Yeah yeah, glwt.

Is this a food website lol ?? Homepage dictates num nums

Welcome back ! I thought at first you'd decided to leave this and walk away but then I realised you'd not posted so must have been on a break.

However I would like to point out that the bet in question isn't much of a bet. The current charts and the miners themselves even back in December seem to believe that this will be easily cleared by the end of Feb.
Also when tracing the transactions back that bet originates from a wallet that had 10k back in April. At first I thought it's just someone with money to burn but it turns out that the 70 BTC bet on the "No" side traces back to the same wallet. Maybe this is a fluke and the coins were sold between two individuals who just happened to bet against each other months later but that seems a bit unlikely.
If anyone would like to recheck my effort this 70 BTC bet (https://blockchain.info/address/14HLRo4ALVtAiwJBrD15CoMzrCLYp9mnFo) (oddly placed at precisely midnight) and this 461 BTC bet (https://blockchain.info/address/14iLj1GWRasbRD5g9MirQQgqUNc1qLWr3g) both trace back to this wallet (https://blockchain.info/address/1Lpi2jNYiK89zY2APbuSAU3fkd2EkZpADB)

It appears that someone is betting against themselves.
There is a more controversial possibility but I'll leave other people to figure that one out.
There is no guarantee of this of course and I wouldn't put any money on it simply because it would be tough to prove.

It's probably worth stating that I have no interest in if bitbet succeeds or fails.
As before grammar and punctuation corrections are welcome :)

Ok, thanks for the feedback but my point wasn't so much that this would be cheating or wrong in some way.

However this was just to support the point that "...the bet in question isn't much of a bet. "
If this individual is hedging both sides of the bet then that is substantially different to walking up and putting down $472k (MtGox rate at the 7th) on the toss of a coin.
That is of course ignoring that this is definitely not 50/50 odds.

You should stick around, a point has to eventually find you and in the meanwhile you're entertaining.

75% out of almost 200 people voted the money should be returned.. Scam job wrote all over it, It's time to give negative rating to MPOE-PR

Go suck a donut, scammer.

Because he's a fuckwit that follows whatever happens to be on TV, and this week Bitcoin happened to be on his TV.

Thanks OP for the heads up. I was going to place a bet but decided to search on the website first.

I only read the first 2 pages so forgive me if for not following through all the pages, but for a website to last long, the website should look after their Customers.

If the OP's bet was not in on time, then it should be refunded (minus the miners transaction fee).

Very easy, and everybody's happy.

I dont care what the terms and condition states - ethically it should be done right.
Its UNETHICAL to take your Customers money when their bets is not in on time - I dont care what the terms and condition states.

Good luck and thank you for saving me the hassle of dealing with this site!

Im sorry but newbies should be allowed to post websites until there members.   But seems the Moderators of these forums dont take care.  To be more strict with newbie accounts

Sorry you went through this OP.  It is a shame and everything MPOE-PR said has fully made sure I will take my business elsewhere.  I will never bet or recommend a site run by such unprofessional and rude people.  OP, this really sucks but you have diverted a ton of business by showing the true side of BitBet and MPOE-PR.

A bunch of forum retards != a ton of business. Sooner you learn this lesson, the better.

Because this thread is now revived:

OP is a well known troll. I tried to give him direct instructions and assistance on IRC via PM about how he could rebroadcast/chain the transaction with a fee attached so it would confirm in time. He simply ignored my offer.

Next time use Counterparty instead of shady betting websites.

lol forum retards, yeesss I wonder how many people that were going to, or use bitbet havent looked at the forums before.

You are the sort of brainwashed halfwit who thinks the responsibility for the lost BTC of MtGOX customers lies with the customers, because "it's their fault for using MtGOX". Having just read this thread I have learned two things:

1) Bitbet is a scam site. I'm glad to know this before ever using the site. Not that I was likely to, as gambling isn't my thing, but still it's worth knowing. Thay actually have an entry in their FAQ that says "If you make any kind of mistake in sending money such that it cannot be used to place a bet, even if we're talking about many thousands of dollars, we're just going to steal that money and say "your fault for screwing up mate! lol". Clearly a site run by petty criminals and nothing more.

2) You, MPOE-PR, are the stupidest, least informed individual I have ever seen comment on the subject of cryptocurrency in any capacity, and that is a difficult title to earn!

I am absolutely appalled by your shitty scam-site and inhumane demeanor.

Yes, scamming people out of their money is OK.....and here's how we justify it.

That happens to be exactly correct. MP (http://trilema.com/2013/grave-concerns-re-mtgox/) told you not to do it. So you figured you know better than MP? You figured you're not required to obey? Well enjoy then.


Lolk.


If your mother weren't a promiscuous whore, the world would conceivably be a better place. Not quite as amusing tho.

I'm with all 50 of you that think bitbet is a scam/bullshit.

Any company can parade around as a legit service and include bullshit in the fine print that screws over customers.

There is absolutely no reason that a bitcoin betting service should include an arbitrary rule that any late/incorrect bets will be confiscated. That is absurd. Anyone who uses bitcoin knows that a SECURE confirmation can take anywhere from 10 minutes to more than an hour (say ghash.io gets 4 blocks in a row) even when using a high transaction fee.

It is sad that such a nicely designed website can't be used because it is run by unethical thieves.

You sir, come across as an absolute grade one cunt.

i used to think MPOE-PR was a respectable member of the community but this behavior is ridiculous and is really more self-harming than anything

That rule is bullshit, its plain stealing just disguised as a 'rule'

Because it's true, duh.

The bottom line is that any decent sportsbook or bookmaker anywhere in the world would void a late bet, win or lose, and return the stake.
It has been industry standard practice for a long, long time, both on
and offline.

That "industry" was just rendered obsolete.

Had it been my bet I would have already come face to face with you and extracted every last cent by now.

Fun fact:

According to Bitbet financial reports, in the entire year of 2013 the revenue from stealing late bets accounted for a whopping 45% of their total revenue.

Great company.

Definitely going to give my business to this clearly ethical non-scam.

Excellent. Thank you for confirming very clearly the points I made. My condolences to you, for having to go through life so desperately unequipped.

I fail to see why posting a recent  pic of you and your  sister could have any relevance to this thread.

It's about as relevant as your response.  Either you get it or you don't.  The rest is just masochistic entertainment.

Snackman..

im in a similiar sitiatuion! ! ! ops didint see that it was bitbet.us - im having problems on bitbet.com

i made a deposit of 0.16btc on there site.

And won 2.025btc and yes ofc i made a withdrawl right away,thought it was nice too get 2btc of a investment of 0.16btc

they said it could take up too 48hours,i thought ok np i waited and waited.

nothing happend ! ?

i got the support,and she said that she would transfer my btc immediatly,

But no nothing happend ! i taalked too support,and the same BS was said,now over a month i have waited and still nothing!!!

i have no idea if iam gonna get my Winings out..


I believe they are a F...... Scammers ! !

Peace....        Does anyone have a email for there support or something ?? Thanks guys :)

I just typed the bitbet url into my browser and got this:


http://www.bitcoinpunter.com/bitbet.jpg

bitbet.us is the correct address

Whoops!
Thanks for correcting me.
 :o

Wow.

The legit thing to do would be to not allow people to place bets with unconfirmed transactions. Not hard.

The scummy thing to do would be let people place bets with unconfirmed transactions and then keep the funds if they don't confirm in time.

What a clusterfuck of a business attitude. "Look, I fucking told you I would rip you off if they didn't confirm, they didn't so I ripped you off, what are you complaining about. I did what I said I would."

Yeeeah, this is bitcoin bitches, so we can do what the fuck we want and you are a fuckwit for not reading our unreasonable FAQ.



I don't gamble, my life has enough risk on a day to day basis without adding more but I sure as fuck would avoid anyone with such disdain for their customers, no matter what the industry.

How exactly?

Do you not know how to return bitcoins? You surely know how the bitcoin protocol works and how to steal them.

Well, it would involve a little investment in development but simply, customers have a wallet address with you, much like any exchange, local bitcoins etc. You accept bets from the wallet address they have with you, if the wallet doesn't have enough confirmed funds to place the bet they can't.

This is how hundreds of bitcoin services work, from bitbargain to bitstamp.



I have a reasonable idea of what your answer will be already.

Your brain does not work. Shut up and read more.


Not allow != Undo, fuckwit. Shut up and go away, reading isn't your thing. Whatever you think you're making "professionally" posting here is less than you'd make if you just flipped burgers, courtesy of Obama's minimum wage bullshit. Go take advantage of it, that's what it's for, that's what you're for.

To translate mpoe prs post

Bitcoin transactions cannot simply be "invalidated" and it is impossible to block transactions.

However it is incredibly easy to automatically return any late bets but they prefer doubling their revenue* by having this policy where they can steal late bets.

*Literally half of bitbets income last year was from stealing late bets.

It's really not.

You just need to create internal wallets that are your 'account balance' you can bet with your account balance and nothing else. Account balance is only made of confirmed bitcoins, no coins show in balance until confirmed. When bets are placed coins are removed by the system from the internal wallet and all payouts are also paid into the internal wallet. The user can then withdraw from their internal wallet to their personal wallet / wallet of choice.

Or

you can buy credits with bitcoins and only bet with credits. Credits are only issued once transactions are confirmed.

You know, like other bitcoin and non bitcoin betting sites do.

This shit is like an online bookmaker telling you to make a bank transfer for each bet and if the bank transfer reaches them after the bet has closed they keep it. Betting sites don't work like that, you have a balance held with the bookmaker, the bookmaker takes bets from the balance.


of course this would involve development costs and losing huge amounts of revenue. Why the fuck would anyone who clearly holds their punters with such utter disdain spend money to lose revenue?


i await the diversionary abuse.

That is an option but it would go against one of their best features which is that all transactions on the blockchain.

But it would still be incredibly easy as I said to automatically refund late bets.

They still can.

Ever sold on local bitcoins? all that is done on blockchain too but you can't sell unconfirmed coins. You have a genuine blockchain wallet address, this is your internal local bitcoins wallet, they never move your funds out of it. They simply look at your internal wallet and only let you sell as many coins as are confirmed in there. The equivalent is only taking bets from confirmed coins in a specific wallet address.

Anyway this is about as intelligent as pissing into the wind because nothing I say will have the slightest impact and I hate wasting my time.

Circlejerking in here...

MP fap fap

People discussing how other people should run their business.  It's all the minuses of a circlejerk without the happy ending.

More of a PSA that this bullshit rule exist and the people behind the company are scumbags.

Indeed, the owners of bitbet are hiding behind policies

No, it is customers complaining. Most businessowners DO give a shit.

Your circlejerking "#bitcoin-assets" ring doens't give a shit. Why would you, you did enough to scam newbs out of money.

Lol.

But you don't understand! THEY HAD A POLL!


Actually that's exactly opposite of what's going on. Not that you're not welcome to your own mistaken opinion.

That's not really an opinion and you know it. I know MPEx is a good exchange and it is good that you charge so much, so that you don't have to bother with newbs. But you can't tell me that you give a shit about newbz, because i read your channel long enough to know you guys. It is like a cult and you laugh your asses of if newbs fall for scams. Also you don't mind getting money from mistakes of newbs.

Be specific. Use quotes.

when i get some time on my hands i will post some IRC logs. Not today though..

Great, so you only walk around with your head some of the time. What do you do the rest of the time if it starts raining, say? Does it rain straight into your gullet?

Just my 2 cents :

- anyone willing or able to bet 10 BTC in gambling is an extreme risk-taker (or wealthy enough not to give a sh*t)
- anyone willing to gamble in online BTC gambling/betting sites must know all these only exist to take the gambler's money and are more or less pronounced scams intended only to skin the sheeple. There are no exceptions.
- anyone not extremely carefully researching every single rule and condition (to detect the traps) is likely gonna lose money - deal with it (remember these sites only exist for you to lose money in one form or another ?)

On a positive note, the OP would likely have lost that bet anyway.

Morale of the story :
a) gamblers are fools
b) a fool and his money are soon parted
c) never participate in online bitcoin betting or gambling, you'll be skinned in one way or another (that's how these "services" make money and their sole purpose)

Heed these lessions and you'll be spared of becoming a loser.

Last tip for the OP :
- locate the juristiction of that gambling site
- check approprate national law for validity of these business conditions (as expressed by their FAQ, which I'm 99% sure do not fulfill legal requirements regardless of juristiction)
- if found invalid (very likely), take a lawyer and go the oldschool legal way
- note that law virtually knows no borders (these are just delays that consume some time)

You might be surprised that the oldschool laws still work just fine in the bitcoin world, as nothing is truly anonymous on the Internet.
Keeping these matters in forum discussions usually gets you nowhere - they got the money and don't care (naturally never have) and are happy another fat victim fell into one of their traps. They feel anonymous. They feel safe.
Take it into the real world and teach them their percieved safety is an illusion and be consequent about it.

rofl, are you unable to dechiffre what i said? Do you keep quotes of everything?

That's perfectly ignorant bs.


Yeah, just like the legal system.

Not true in any way, shape or form in my opinion.
A lot of punters (not all)  may be ground down mercilessly by the laws of mathematics over time  but to say the operators 'skinned' them is very unfair.

Unfortunately, that's the perfectly realistic truth.
If you haven't gotten around to realize that basic fact, I feel sorry for you and wish you the best of luck - you'll need it but eventually will run out of it.
You're either very young and haven't learned these basic lessons yet or too naive (or both).


True in every single way, like it or not. These services aren't there for anyone's welfare or entertainment. They're after their money. Always have been since the dawn of gambling, always will be.
The bank always wins and above is the simple reason for that.
In the world of the internet, in fact 10x more than in classic casinos.
In the Bitcoin niche of the internet, in fact 100x more than classic casinos.

The "better" services skin the sheeple just a little bit, others are less covert about it.
To think otherwise would at best be... highly naive (and that's a very diplomatic understatement).

Go search deep for code (for sale) for online gambling sites.
The most expensive code packages for gambling sites have the most deceit and advanced algorithms to rip-off the gambling fool and protect the investment of the operator. The very best ones you'll never find for sale, however. These algorithms always sit on top of whatever "edge" the operator decides to take (the "edge" is the part of the tilted table some sites even openly advertise nowadays).

Dude, get off your retarded high horse, acquire a clue as to the things you're discussing, come back later or something. It's beyond ridiculous (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-03-2014#590539) this carrying on, what the hell.

Oh, did I hit a nerve there ?

Sorry that such a simple truth hurts ya... But whenever that happens to you, it's time to reconsider your evaluations. Or deny it and wait until it hurts again another day - your call, I couldn't care less.
After all, it's a free world. Some people like getting burned more than once...

It's pretty weird how nobody in this thread cared to do some proper research instead of commenting :-\

Care to elaborate enlightened one?

Well, for example you've been here for 8 months and you still don't have a clue. How come? Why don't you research the stuff you're commenting about? I don't get it really.

Still don't have a clue about what?

Are you just rambling now?

Not much research is required to figure out that bitbet/MPOE-PR is outright stealing people's money.

Sure, about as much as is required to imagine GLBSE, Bitfunder, Havelock etc are making you peasants rich. GLWT.

See here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=135834.msg5947874#msg5947874).

I have to give you props for actually sticking around, vs the more conventional scammers who simply up and leave with everyone's money.

Good news. MPOE-PR was banned for trolling.

Great news.

http://r15.imgfast.net/users/1513/14/41/60/smiles/1262168784.gif

Nice, but how long? I doubt he won't be back soon..

Anybody else get problem from this site? This BitBet.Us still operating normal, right?

Still operating, taking and paying out bets as they always have. http://bitbet.us/ (http://bitbet.us/)

They also still operate exactly on the terms they lay out, which makes it a pretty nice place if you're actually interested in bets.

You should read the first post before you consider sending your money. Don't place your bid according to their timeline, they'll just keep your money.

You can say that again!

Did bitbet ever do the right thing and return the coins to this customer ?

i almost made a large bet but luckily i saw this thread .......

It certainly did do the right thing ...