Bitcoin Forum

Hey everyone, I recently did this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdnG03eI58) showing some of the recent Deception and Misdirection that the ZCash team has pushed on us all over the last 1.5 years and ofcoarse more recently over the last week with the announcement of the Z9.

ZCash has released this statement: https://z.cash.foundation/blog/statement-on-asics/

Which basically says they don't have any plans to fork off the ASICs any time soon because they feel they are incompetent in understanding how the ASICs work. (and stated elsewhere they don't want to disrupt their sapling upgrade)
This is in contrast to how BTCP, BTG and BitcoinZ has decided on.

In my personal view, we have been lied to in order to found and grow the ZEC co. Network over the last 1.5 years, with promises of forking away and developed ASIC in the future... I believe this was deliberately done in order to build a network from a hashrate of 0 to a hashrate that is now worth ASIC development and take over... as no company is going to build an ASIC for a non-existant or small network... ZCash needed to convince us.. needed us to trust them that it was worth while and safe to build GPU miners to support their network... They did this by saying that they would fork off ASICs and keep the chain GPU minable.

Zooko has been saying for a few months now that he does not really think ASICs are a problem, and even went so far in a recent tweet to say that "commodity mining means miners have less at stake and don't lose much if abandon or betray the project... not the people I want to have around."  ... which basically declared those of us who supported his network from day 0 as the enemy.  We can face the sad fact he was never fond of GPU mining... He has repeatedly tried to argue the Pro-ASIC argument for the last few months.

Now I would like to state that in the following video, that Shawn is not an "official" employee of the ZEC co., but a "volunteer" employee who runs the ZCash forum forum.z.cash, their reddit, and other webpages designed to promote ZCash.  However, as a moderator on the COMPANY forum, no matter what he says, he does REPRESENT ZEC co, and his opinion was taken as a representation of ZEC co. in the past without refute or clarification.

I will leave you to watch this video and form your own opinon on the ethics and future of ZEC co and its founder Zooko.

My question to you is, have us GPU miners been played as fools by ZEC co.?

If you are Pro-ASIC or Anti-ASIC is not the debate...  that is a personal opinion and not the question at stake here.  I want to think how many people believe we have been misled.

I should add that this video got me BANNED from the ZCash forums and BLOCKED from Zooko's Twitter.  As an early supporter of ZCash extending back to the Testnet days and avid participant of the forum, you can imagine how angry they are me for showing you what I show you in the below video.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dco66TIV0AAsW2w.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dco6IUsV0AAu_Zj.jpg



https://i9.ytimg.com/vi/oPdnG03eI58/default.jpg?v=5aedcccb&sqp=CLiCzNcF&rs=AOn4CLBNrKHkOP3ftPPcqT-41jgtL2fbMw
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdnG03eI58)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPdnG03eI58

When devs needs hashrate they are the best friend of small miners, garage miners, medium miners, but when the coin reaches a great volume of money, they forgot all and don't care about community

"Board member Andrew Miller is planning to create a proposal through the grants program to convene a Technical Advisory Board to provide scientifically grounded inputs into this decision."

"Based on continued community approval and the results of our investigation above, we have a rough goal of developing and submitting a mitigation plan through the ZIP process, targeting a deployment in late 2018."

In the age of Uber, they will take a good year to sort this out. Just WOW!!


Edit: In case they have doubts on ASIC capabilities, here's one doing 40K:

https://www.asicminervalue.com/miners/asicminer/equihash-40k

Good luck!

I knew this would happen, reason why I never invested on any equihash coin, there is nothing amazing or brilliant about zec, monero is in many ways better, the only thing i don't like about monero is the high transaction fees.

the only one who will lose in this are miners especially the miners who will buy batches 2 and later . profit per day will decrease a lot once ASIC start to take over , developers already gained and got what they want from miners and from the coin . Bitamin will gain alot by selling those ASIC miners from batch 1 and from the  noobs ( from batch 2 and moving forward ). ZEC will die slowly now . RIP ZEC

This is what I personally feel about ZEC.
As a beginner in the crypto space, I was initially drawn to it as a promising coin with a good developers team. I even mined some ZEC for some time using my modest GPU equipment.
Had I known better, I would've been immediately suspicious of its 20% developers fee. Nowadays I don't even consider ZEC for anything serious.
You have other privacy coins to choose from, many of which come without any premine whatsoever.
And you can easily switch to mining them once they have modified their proof of work to be ASICS resistant.

yeah right... it will take them near a year to probably impliment any change, and they know damn well that by then no GPU miners will be left or care.  most will have either liquidated or if they have mined out the time, they will be more happy to stick with an algo that has supported them the entire time.. not one that drops them and expects them to pick it back up again...

it is all obviously excuses from zcash... nothing more... BTCP, BTG, BitcoinZ all stating they will address this right away...

with ZCash evolving 0% in 1.5 years... they can afford to put a hold on their precious sapling upgrade and address the issue that those who supported their network growth over the last 1.5 years are getting thrown in a ditch..

so obviously they dont care and are really only in this for the money, Not the community.

which really leads me to wonder if their was any collusion between bitmain and zooko... people have asked for over a month if zooko has been in contact with any asic companies without getting an answer from zooko... and bam asics come out..

also bitmain wouldn't produce 100,000's of these units AND not put a disclaimer that a change in the algo is a risk (like they did with the ETH miner) unless they were certain there would not be an algo change... at 50 units per customer, i would bet they made 300,000+ Z9 units to sell to the public... expect a massive increase in difficulty over the next2-3 months and expect all GPUs to be forced off the network.

there is also a conspiracy floating around that the sapling upgrade made zcash more susceptible to ASICs - which I do not know the exact details about... but.. heh.. with the timing, i would again not be surprised if bitmain knew this and played right into it... if tipped off/collusion I cant say for sure... but it begs the question...

that being said, I knew from zookos comments earler, especially his early april comments, that if an ASIC came out, that they would not do anything to get rid of them ... i lost all respect for ZCash at that time and im proud to have gotten the boot from their forums.  I can consider that to be the ethical thing to do at this point.

I already said something about that few months ago when zec dev said they would not fork if there was an asic for it, that time is when I found out zec devs gave the formula to bitmain to create an asic for it, all behind the curtains, zec dev saying on the matter concerning eth asic was just a confirmation of what was going on since november 2017. Bitmain took 3 months to develop the asic, prototype was done on january 2018, mass production started on that month but the collusion was few months back. However bitmain would not believe when the secret formula got in hands of the competition and now bitmain is releasing the asic cause the competition would take the credit for it and bitmain would not let it. I already said countless of times about this, nobody paid attention cause as always there is no proof till it happens the big announcement hehe, You trolls were warned by zec dev what would happen although I was not 100% sure till few weeks ago about the collusion.

Also I must add, the enormous increased in hashrate few months ago was all asics.

metroid, hehe.  ;D

Yes, I remember your posts saying that

Anyone with good english (not me) could create a post to alert people and to remember that they announce another Equihash Asic, it's really amazing how every asics companies achieved at the same time the Asic?
Look cryptonight Asics, they all poped out at the same time
And now it's the second Equihash asic

In my opinion the all mines a lot with then, and when they develop a better Asic or they predict something is gonna happen, the first one put to sell and another ones put to sell after...

Personally i supported Zcash network from beginning, but when Zocco did a statement that ASIC doesn't concern him and he wont stick to the people who help him become rich and famous. i switched my miners to RAVEN and Monero.
This project for me is "0" - just bunch of untruthful scumbags that forget where they come from. 
Also I will not support any coin, this scumbag is associated to.

+ I have a message to developers. YES the mining technology advances - but remember the coins , algos advance as well - and your coin is not only one in this world.

You guys are blinded by your own greed and it is hilarious. The only reason you want it to stay GPU is because you dont want to spend money upgrade equipment.

ASICs are a good thing. They strengthen the network ten fold over GPU hashrate. They are cheaper to buy and run than a GPU mining rig.

You guys talking about how you supported the project by mining it are so full of crap. You mined it to make a profit, you dont care about the direction of the coin until it isnt making enough money for you.

You talk about how BTCP, BTG and BitcoinZ are forking away from it. Who cares? They are shitcoins cloned off of other peoples hard work. Zcash actually brought something original to the table, being the first coin to incorporate zk-Snarks and its zero knowledge proof.

Also this crazy idea that miners were "used" to build the hashrate to be good enough for an ASIC? What kind of idiocy is this? Go look up Bytom.....a coin that was unminable until the ASIC came out from bitmain that was developed in concert with the Bytom team.


I mean how have you been taken advantage of? You mined coins and got paid right? You chose to do that, you profited from it, now you are crying about it. The hypocrisy is undeniable.

These wild conspiracy theories should be scrubbed from this forum before some poor fool reads it and believes all of this garbage.

Until such dirty behavior I actually liked ZCash, now it is dead to me!

Hey mr hero/legendary member
When someone say something in the beginning and then, "ones rich and famous" change his story 180 degrees - who is the hypocrite?

Zookoo has never said he would fork away from ASICs so im not sure what you are talking about.

wrong buddy, when we were mining testnet we were not mining for a profit

higher hashrate does not necessarily strengthen the network

anyways, this thread is not a debate on asics... it is a simple question so stick to it FFS

just vote no if that is your stance, state why if you want and that's it...

And you have continued to mine it for profit. This is a thread about forking due to ASICs so it is a valid topic of discussion.

Its hard to stay on your point so it is just wild conspiracy theories with no factual backing.

And in the end its about you being butt hurt over asics and the fact that your GPU rigs wont make as much mining it when that happens.

You need to get over your victim mentality.

No, its a thread on if ZEC co and Zooko are honest to their GPU Miners... and that is it.

There is not going to be a fork due to ASICs so that is not the topic.

There are other threads to discuss ASICs or the Z9 in general, please use those threads for such debate.

Please keep this thread on topic.... "Deception & Misdirection by ZEC co."

Wow, if this is so and it does seem, appears to be shitting on the community that helped get ZEC to where it is.  This might come back to bite them in the ass hard, should be interesting to see how this plays out.

ZEc co. only cares about its bottom line, not the people who originally supported them... its a company, nothing more.. no community

@ op

I would love to answer your pool but your choices are very limited.

Asics are being used to attack gpu coins.

I see that as do the rest of us.

So now the equihash algo is under attack.  By maybe two different asic miners.

So the leading coin is zcash and they are dancing bobbing and weaving around do we fork or not fork.

I would say he should not decide or tell anyone what he will do.
Then when the gear from bitmain ships he should fork and make the announcement that they won’t fork a second time if new asics are made.


Then in six months when some asic builder attacks zcash2 with asic2. He should fork again saying I changed my mind.  And I now have three algos ready for any new asics attacking zcash3.

This is a war asics against gpus.

And gpus losing the war means death for all coins in the long run.  It goes far beyond zcash.

Cryptocoins best year ever was 2017 and gpus were the driving force.

Not asics.  Then in 2018 gpus were shut down by gpu builders prices got jacked asics mined coins on the sneak.

All the gpu networks grew in Jan feb mar yet not many gpus were sold.  So zcash leaders should not be standup transparent deadly  honest.  Then need to bust a move that hurts the. Users of Equihash ASICs more then your pole.

Then need to keep us guessing.

Thanks for your input phil.  poll is not aimed at trying to get zec co to do anything, its aimed at letting miners know they are scum.

As is the attack on gpu mining  by asic builders.

The most successful year ever  2017  was on the back of gpu mining  and the asic builders attack the gear that  created that success.

 Do I think zcash is a bad coin do i think they are scum?  I did see your youtube video.  It makes a good case.  I will wait and see what zcash really does before I decide they are scum or a clever fighter of the asic attacks on them..

Bitmain has a lot money. It could be that there was deal between them behind the scenes. I do believe that Bitmain secretly funds lots of cryptocurrency projects. Once the community builds they bring the ASICs to the market. Monero earned my respect with their forking decision.

Bitmain holds the bone with their ASICs while we are treated like dogs. Only support coins that support us.

I believe or that's how i feel atm  > ZEC co. Has Deceived and Misled GPU Miners.
I 'm not calling it a Scam yet but do feel we were mislead and lied to all for money .


it seems you have been following it and if what your saying is the case then they lied and mislead us .I was even told on another forum by the DEV that zec would stay Resistance to ASIC . when Zec started in a pass by post i can't find now , that was my main reason for mining Zec back then



 That's what Ive done switch to Monero and Raven mostly Raven .

now there is another ASIC Zec miner 40 k sols how real it is no idea but i bet it is .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdQNfByI63c&feature=em-uploademail

15 k usd to buy it > https://asicminer.co/shop/asicminer-equihash  

Daily Return: $159.15  till they destroy the network.

and they call GPU miners greedily because we don't want a pay Asic prices which go higher and higher in price each time they come out with a new one till it's used up then they lower the price an fuck us even more .

Probably it is four units  Z9

Yeah I totally agree with everything you say,
it was his reply tweet on March 30th that made me loose all respect for zooko:

https://s9.postimg.cc/his1mxczj/zookoscum2.png
https://s31.postimg.cc/5c0esqjdn/zookoscum.png

"I'm not sure it is possible.  Also it might be undesirable, because commodity mining means miners have less at stake and don't lose much if abandon or betray the project.  Also CPU-mioning means the people making the money are botnet gangs- not the people i want to have around"

that was in response to asking him for suggestions on how to change Ethash to eliminate the asics...

at that point he literally said we were the people he didn't want around... there was no reason at that time to say that and insult those of us who have built his hashrate from day 0 testnet days....  that was a month before the asics came out... and its not like bitmain is watching those kinds of tweets... so yeah.. at that point i realized he is not someone we should want around...  that he would end up betraying us, not us betraying his network.

That tweet and reply was a few days before I posted on the forum about the potential of ZEC co. getting sued if they did not eliminate the ASICs as was previously said they would do... (which was on April; 3rd)

then the fact shawn edited his post (on April 4th)... I would like to ask him WHY he edited it.. but I can't since im banned  8)

that pushed me over the edge.


yup, we will never know as if there was collusion, ZEC co. was probably paid via z-address...


yup, it was actually mentioned a lot of times on the forum that they would just fork and eliminate any asics, however i cant find most of those posts anymore... but I was an avid user of the forum and can clearly remember being told that several times.... as I was making videos at the time so I needed to reassure my viewers that GPU mining equihash would be safe for the future...

which is why i really feel cheated by them... because I recommended them... and really feel like they are throwing us off a cliff without a care of what was said in the past...

when i tell people something based off of what I am told, i expect what i am told to be true... i have an infamous reputation to uphold...

I agree with the author. When it was necessary to maintain the ZEC network our mining farms were necessary for them. It is a pity that so goes the team which I trusted!

https://imgur.com/a/vzcEAR9
This is Shawn and what he said in '16

Notice how they went from "likely change algorithm" to "overwinter and sappling are set in stone, maybe at the end of 2018" .

Talk about not being able to comprehend what someone wrote. He specifically says he doesnt want people that build illegal botnets of CPU miners around. It says nothing about the rest of the community. Somehow you are taking a totally reasonable statement and twisting it to fit your narrative. He also states it might not be a bad thing to have ASICs because they will stabilize the network. If you look at ZEC hashrate it fluctuates wildly based on profitability, because people arent supporting ZEC in particular, they just want to make money.

Also, you cant prove anywhere that they gave an ironclad guarantee to fork away from ASICs. They said they used an asic resistant algo, and would 'likely' try to keep asics away. None of what was posted was a promise, and damn sure nothing you can sue over.

I cant even call you ignorant because you are actively spinning all of the information to try and align it with this idea somehow that the zcash devs betrayed you.

I don't agree on one thing, ZEC always had a stable miner community, on top of that comes pool-switching.

They changed their stance on ASICs. It's nothing to sue over ofc, it's just dishonest.

@cryptomined

What do you want to actually happen? What actions do you want ZEC to take? Do you want to postpone sappling?

ZenCash put out a very Anti ASIC statement. Would you prefer if ZEC took a similar stance?

I don't give a F what ZEC co. does at this point.

what they should do is, yes, postpone sappling and deal with the ASIC mess right away.  Priority should be given to what they said first, which is remain ASIC resistant, alter the algo to eliminate any threat of ASICs... sappling and any other upgrade came after the statements on ASIC resistance and forking off ASICs.


but they wont do that... so again... i dont care what they end up doing.

Who the hell are you to decide how they prioritize their work?  First of all, there is no ASIC threat or mess. There are just ASICs, which are the natural progression of how coins are mined. ASICs are a good thing to everyone except end users that are worried about nothing more than their profits. Go mine some other shitcoins and stop posting this nonsense before someone actually takes you seriously.

I agree with OP on everything. And yes ZEC is a company and not a decentralized project like so many others we know. Now if I was a huge mining farm and gathered many investors on the idea were going to mine zcash and we have nothing to worry because they assured us they'd be resistant. Then you bet I'd be going after them, because they the company made us a promise. Our farm did not decide to mine bitcoin with Gpu's back in the day, and that's because there was no single entity making us a promise. But now, I know who to go after for compensation as our huge investment has yet to ROI. Anyone understand that concept?

I'm sorry to tell you this but you are missing the point.
We're not talking about the advantages of asic vs gpu or whether the devs have a right to do what they wish or not or about what to do first.
It's simple really. They said from the beginning they will not allow asiscs on their chain. Nobody can deny this. End of story.

ASICs in their current implementation are not a good thing. I would agree with you in that they would be no different then GPUs but with one exception, currently publicly available ASICs are provided only by one company Bitmain.

We already seen what they did back with Bitcoin and their ASIC boost software giving their own miners a secret advantage (until discovered) over even the hardware they sell off to the public. They have also included kill switch code in their hardware in the past, of course they spin it as it is good "in case someones miner(s) are stolen they can remotely deactivate them", but just the existence of such a feature should be alarming.

No matter what your views this is not leading at all to decentralization of the network and in fact is going more back to centralizing it in the hands of one hardware provider. If there were several ASIC manufacturers who made available and sold new hardware without restrictions or secret access, similar to the GPU manufactures, than yes ASICs would really be no different than GPU mining.

The thing GPU mining offers is that it truly helps to decentralize the mining network as even though we will always have differences of scale regardless of ASIC or GPU, at least the GPU route lets home miners have a foot in the door. With ASICs you have several hurdles to overcome, first you need to be even able to acquire them, you need to keep up with the queen's race game as new hardware is routinely released, you need to often pre-order them months in advance, and often you need to scale up to even make it worthwhile. All these things make ASICs available to far fewer people, thus further reducing the number of miners, or essentially reducing the decentralization of the mining network.

I am going with Phil on this one, in that my biggest beef with all this is that Zcash was launched as an ASIC resistant coin but the very first ASIC threat that comes along they decide to punt claiming it's a lost cause. Really? They haven't even tried yet.

Sure, they may fork and a new ASIC gets released, but to Bitmain this isn't a free ride. They will need to invest time, money, and effort into developing a new ASIC, so after a point they are going to tire chasing after coins that fork away from them. So not, I do not believe beating ASICs is a lost cause, but it does require some amount of effort from the dev team to fork away and from the community to support the new ASIC resistant fork.

cryptomined  ignore fanatic26  he doesn't appear to be the real fanatic from a while back, I honestly think hes a paid troll from some place trying to piss us off and wants everything ASIC when both GPUs and ASIC can exist to gather ..

Yes, Zcash is a scam, always has. Why? first the trusted stepup is completely unreliable from the get go, but now with all the behaviors that you documented... it is total unconsciousness to support this chain in anyway.

ZEC is beautiful example of how a shitcoin can get a high valuation...

Furthermore the behavior, and censorship is totally unacceptable. it's the virus musk(it), a very contagious illness, made of arrogance and lack of respect for investors.

and there is zero decentralization with this coin, everything rest on the shoulder of a censoring master... what a shame for those who have been fooled...

the rush for the exit is going to be fun :).

My thoughts exactly. I am truly disappointed with the tactlessness "Zooko" and the ZEC team handled this. I have always viewed and supported ZCash as a reliable and honest coin but after this BS? No thanks. Dumping ALL my mined ZEC and moving on to better privacy-based coins like Monero (at least they care about their community).

The high fee should be somewhat lowered when 'Bulletproof' shows its face this year  :)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This sums it up,   but that's ok I'll start dumping all the zcash i've mined in the past year and 1/2,  and never
touch that coin ever again.

BTW you generally dont want ACIS from one company to control all your hash rate,  Especially Bitmains,  who's Bitcoin miners
are known to have backdoors and remote shutoff's.

That tell all about fanatic26
Bitcointalk:
Show the last topics started by this person.

1. "Hello bitcointalk....
I have a large number of S7s available for cheap. The vast majority have been modded for increased power efficiency using Sidehacks PIC flash mod."
2. "Direct from the trade show.
Ebit E9++"
3. "Having a strange issue that I cannot figure out.
I have a mix of S7, S9, and Avalon6 units. "

This just tells me you are a ASIC dog.
Why dont you go, and start a ASIC community and support a ASIC coin - SOB.

yes, already put him on ignore :)

Especially for a privacy coin.

Everything you do is private until the corporation that controls the network decides otherwise? Wtf.

Zooko is getting his 20% of every mined block so he doesnt really need to care about who and how is mining it,this is one of concerns about centralised coin like zec :-\ And he probably  gets extra few % on top of that from bitmain for not doing anything about asics

zokoo is fucking liberal, like dorsey, i am sure he voted hillary.

yeah he doesn't care, except when he can get double founders rewards by making 2 ZEC chains... then sure... then he can fork a GPU minable chain and support both the GPU and ASIC minable chains... and I bet he would do it with godspeed...

no double founders reward?  then he doesn't even know if its possible to fork to a GPU only chain...  

funny how he can say its a possibility to have a new GPU chain, and then right after reply to my twitter saying the problem is he doesnt know how the ASICs work (and therefore cant produce a GPU only fork)


well he sure as hell won't be making bitcoin great again (or crypto)

the good news is that it already lost almost $100m of marketcap (from 1.05 to 0.93)... who will be left holding the bags of this shitcoin? that is the real question :) and what you say is so true...

 :D

Why don't these devs realise that not only gpu miners are the first users of their coin but they are also their biggest user base at any time. They are all underestimating role of gpu miners which far outnumbers the ASIC miners. They are over confident in their coin's tehnological edge but it doesn't matter if something has space age technology if nobody uses it. New and technologically advance coins will keep on arriving in future but the coin which betrays its community will turn to dust. We miners will just ignore, go over their dead body and move on.
 This action is a nail in Zcash's coffin.

I'd rather see the coin staying ASIC resistant in the future, but I understand if it takes time to make sure that changing the POW algorithm doesn't break other services that are already dependent on the Zcash network.

don't be so dumb, the algo doesn't change anything about the chain... all those so called service can work with pos coin... you are sooo noob. do some research.


the miner dumpers don't care, as long as suckers pay for it and it is profitable for them they will continue to dump it... until it isnt :). but those who hodl zec? I mean... they are such risk takers (I hope they love bags too :D).

and the devs don't give a f now... they have the lambos and bimbos... look at what dash did... they even seeked asics.

Probably heard about the Z9 and said, "wait a second, we could make a killing mining our own coin with those new ASICs." *ahem* "We never had plans to make equihash ASIC resistant." *ahem*

I'm glad I only have $3.00 left of ZEC. Typical big business taking away from those that brought the co up and made it something.

The 20% thing always bugged me from day one with Zcash. For one why did they need it all in the first 4 years and not just do the 10% over the life of the coin? Who is going to fund development after the first 4 years? 

I let such questions go early on, but now with this attitude they are taking of embracing ASICs after launching the coin as ASIC resistant as one of the core features really has me doubting their long term commitment to the project. How long after the 4 years worth of dev payments stop does Zooko and his crew move on to a new coin as Zcash is no longer the viable platform they hoped it would be.

New coins are a dime a dozen, and realistically the features they claim that makes them unique are often superficial at best. There are probably only a handful of coins that are truly unique, and even of those, other coins could copy many of those features with ease. The only thing left is the community that stands behind it, and when you start alienating a large percentage of that user base you no longer even have that. 

I hope Bitmain will do at least 1 pump, then I get rid of my last 199 Zcash  ;D

Since last Monday over to Monero, after more then a year of all my rigs on Zcash.
I know, you can expect a lot in Crypto, but this ? 

Very very nice comment.

This subject needs to remain on top. As a warning to greedy devs.

 8)  tried my best to show people their true colors...

i had been mining ZEC religiously since testnet...  even if it was not the most profitable crypto to mine with my nvidia cards, i kept them on zec...

and all that time zooko disliked us GPU miners because we can just change networks to the more profitable chain...

well even if ZEC is more profitable (which it is not)... I wont be mining it again...

I would like to know what makes asics better at securing the network than gpu's?   
Also some idiot saying that gpu miners jump ship if another coins is more profitable...So do asic miners. You only have to look at BTC and BCH if one is more profitable than the other to mine they simply switch their asics to that coin.

We all saw the posts when zec first started .. making promises at being asic resistant....in order to be resistant you have to actually resist. its so easy to say your resistant when there is nothing to resist against.

I would like to see the 20% paid by the miners put to some good use and use the 20% to pay the devs  for their time to fork away from asics and actually keep their word.

Everything the OP has stated is true and in my opinion if they dont fork away from asics they should be held liable for their lies and deceit. They are no better than Bitconnect it my eyes.

First thing that comes to mind is that when you're a GPU PoW coin, its possible to develop an asic in secret and basically take over the network without anyone knowing.

If you're already on asics (fastest tech available atm), you're not vulnerable to stuff like that.

Yeah, it is a pretty lousy situation. ZEC has been my preferred coin for the past year. Sold most of it and moved my miners to Raven. Seems like a shitcoin with a future. I don't really see any downsides to it.

I picked up a z9 just to try it out. It will run simply to mine and sell. No hodling. Once it becomes unprofitable to run into the recycle bin it goes.

At first I though you all were being dramatic but the more I read the more I agree with the general consensus of this group.

+1  ???

That's not a pleasant scenario.

On the other side, it's a lot more secure when there's one dominant ASIC manufacturer that already has a healthy xx% of the hashrate and can easly build enough to get over 50%. ::) ::) ::)  Totally invulnerable. :D :D

Also does the eth network seem vulnerable? You'd need quite a lot of ASICs (assuming E3 eff) to get over 50.

And how many persons/companies could actually build and design an ASIC that could take over a network like Zecs? Assuming the devs would not treat changing algos like some design of the 8th world wonder, and fork like Monero did?

Very true if this is supposed to be a decentralized coin than why is one man pulling the strings 

I sold all my zec and my friends too. Never ever will trade it. I hope soon it will become shitcoin like most if not change mind

Sounds like GPU miners like yourself are the greedy ones?

Sounds like you yourself are a bit of an ass hole with no real concept of right or wrong and no clue what decentralisation actually means. Also when a promise is made it should be up held. Now shuffle on back under your bridge you troll.

Do you have any actual arguments?

Another ASIC dog unmasked "cryptotore"
Bitcointalk:
Show the last topics started by this person.

"Hi,
I would like some help with a design to sound proof 10-20 Antminer S9's.
I've been searching but havent really found any good threads on it, hope its ok I create a new one.
This is my goal:
-Be able to run 10-20 S9 in my garage without bothering the neigbours."

"Got 6x S7 coupons valued at 0.05 BTC each available for sale.
0.025 each
0.12 for all"

Why dont you go, and start and support a ASIC coin  - SOB.

And YES i will proudly say I am nice size GPU miner and I supported a lot of projects since 2012 with donations to devs and to list coins on exchanges. Also, as for many here mining is my hobby. I dont drink, smoke or party and money is not the most important think in my life. in blockchain i see future for better world. where a GPU owner/miner in afrika or asia could provide for his family without sale his kidney to a greedy F...k like you.
WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE CRYPTO COMMUNITY, BESIDE PROFITING OF COINS, THAT OTHER MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM SUPPORTED FROM THE BEGINING?

yikes

The ASIC manufacturer could sell only a small fraction of its miners and keep the rest mining for itself. That makes a coin/algo that has been ASIC'ed just as vulnerable to "secret mining" as one that is still only mineable with a GPU or CPU.

So, no, the successful development of ASICs for an algo does not make it any less vulnerable to shady behavior by ASIC manufacturers.

So you would say bitcoin is just as vulnerable to someone developing a better tech  and taking over the network as for example monero?

So because he mines with ASICs hes a bad person?

P.S. Its actually cheaper for someone in a third world country to buy and run an ASIC than it is to build a MUCH MORE expensive GPU system that requires paying 4-5x the amount of import duties and makes less profit. Maybe you should spend less time dreaming of a better world and more time paying attention to the reality of this one. So you can proudly say you are a GPU miner even though it is meaningless at least you can pat yourself on the back. You have no fundamental grasp of how mining works yet you come here talking shit to someone with more skin in the game that you can ever afford to have.

The stupidity in this thread is overwhelming.

It is a misconception some people think about the whole thing. I would not blame the troll or even bitmain for that, blame should be on coin developers, they have the power to do anything they like given the consensus.

As off topic, zec has been pumping and right now is the best time to dump all the zec you trolls have for xmr or any other gpu only coin.

Also you trolls should never support asic coins and that is to send a message to future coin developers.

So you are saying that Asics are custom duty free ? For third world countries GPU mining is even more important. Asics are not available in retail shops like gpus are. Even in a small third world nation's small town you can go and easily buy a gpu but not the same case with Asics. Many Asian countries have informally banned Asics from entering the country, they seize them in customs but how would you know. Living in first world comfort zone and talking about third world problems.

Gpu mining is democratisation of mining and prevents crony capitalism. Any Govt. can officialy ban ASICs easily and no one would care but they can never ban GPUs as it has many uses in different industries and a only a tiny minority use it for cryptocurrency mining.

That is a very interesting quip.  Very thought provoking and made think more about the lifecycle of various coins.  What about this:

1. Would Bitcoin be worth what it is today without ASICs?

2. Doesn't Bitcoin pretty much get a 'pass' when it comes to this since the original developer is anonymous?  Sure, there is a development team working on bitcoin.  But... they also seem untouchable or maybe since bitcoin is doing so well no one cares.

Regarding the OP, I'll just add:

3. I agree developers should act in good faith with their own community.  Banning people for voicing an opinion is wrong.  However...

4. Is there anything legally binding that says the developer "must" fork for various reasons?  Starting off over a year ago to remain ASIC resistant is one thing.  But a lot can change in that time so should coin developers not be flexible to changing strategies?

Maybe ASICS will be the fire power that pushes ZEC into the stratosphere in a couple of years time with ASIC mining and wider adoption. 

As you say "The stupidity in this thread is overwhelming"


So then why are you here??

If there were actually a market for some person in a 3rd world country to send bitmain (or someone else) $75 worth of BTC, LTC, BCH and in turn bitmain (or someone else) to send them a tiny little miner that could mine something... trust me... bitmain (or someone else) would make it happen.


^^^^^^^^^ Sometimes you are wise, this is one of those times.

That's what ive been telling people today, best day to dump zec and pick up some better bags.

Remember the D3, remember the L3... bitmain flooded the market with these...  they are room heaters/door stoppers today

at a limit of 50 per customer the market will soon be flooded with Z9 mini's... they will quickly be as unprofitable as a D3...

then will come the Z9 Monster with 10X hashrate of the mini - rinse and repeat....

the only coin that remains somewhat profitable with an ASIC today is bitcoin and that is only because the markets need bitcoin as the trading peg...
if bitcoin wasn't the petro-crypto... the bitcoin asics would probably also be paperweights

and remember 2 years ago, ROI on a bitcoin ASIC was what ... never???

I myself think that will never have or be a better opportunity to sell zec than right now, I dont have any but if i had, would sell everything right now.

Could not agree more. I am getting 90%+ money back for my 1080ti-s that i bought a year ago and switching to Asics. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, more efficient, what's not to like ?

Lol!

Here's some facts:

I've been a GPU miner since Q2 2013.

Here's a pic of one of my first rigs:
https://i.imgur.com/UmeOZG7m.jpg (https://imgur.com/UmeOZG7)

The very first block I found was LTC block number 340717.
https://i.imgur.com/m4IWhb1.png (https://imgur.com/m4IWhb1)

I was very active in the wemineltc community, helping a lot of newbies get started.
I donated/lost a lot of btc through btcjam.. ;D
I've even sold some very cheap btc to Tim Draper. What more do you want from me?

I currently have:
13x S9
1x L3+
1x D3
2x B3
6x Z9 mini on order
2x E3 on order
26x RX580
65x RX570
12x 1080ti
2x 1070ti
1x Vega64

And yes, I've been buying asics since antminer s1. I will continue buying asics.
I'm actually building a container this summer to host 100kW of ASIC's.
I will source more GPU's when requirements for level 4 supplier in the sonm.io network is ready

You mad?

they did !!! as expected... but who knows... they have deep pockets and it may just be the beginning.... or the end !


sometime evident questions are left out of the price, but once they return... :).


One poster wrote it earlier...

Why stop mining? if it is the most profitable dump it !!!

and then as he said, nice post by the way, is about locking user in to have captives, that they call "community". with gpus and fpgas you can switch at will, with asics, the algos must be used by other great chain and devs... dispersion etc.

nice burn

It's pretty obvious that Zooko took a bribe from Bitmain.

Not only him, every developer who let bitmain do anything they like. I would stay away from all of those coins, also put in that list ripple, stellar and any scamcoin like them.

either money is involved or ZEC co. is just too proud to admit that they aren't smart enough to make a truly ASIC resistant algo hehe

There is no "truly ASIC resistant algo" forever, if you are a developer, you need to keep updating your own algo 6 in 6 months to render the previous useless. That is how is done. It's not about they are not smart to, it seems they dont want to cause they probably were already bribed by asic companies to keep as it is.

bribed or not the their mining cut/tax remains...so why bother?

I was also thinking, why make ETH ASICs this late if ETH is going for POS? the manufacturers must be selling used mining equipment..

...maybe we should look beyond "algos" because being an algo is what makes mining cpu-gpu-fpga-asic compatible..ever increasing DAG sure made ASICs a bit late I believe..equihash is an easier job for ASIC companies.

DAG was something, since you need a hard drive for it..until developers learned how to put them inside GPU memory....waiting for the next innovation  8)

Yes it was and the next innovation will be moving from gpus/asics etc.. to a mobile mining/staking coin process, the next step in decentralization will be with mobiles, everybody has it, a blockchain in every mobile.

I'm imagining my mining room full samsung galaxy s9 plus LMAO.

I agree with this statement. Seeing that the Z9 mini consumes only 300 watts while in operation, it tells me that this miner has a small handful of ASIC chips inside. Bitmain has definitely made this miner underpowered, which is a good strategy since it's still enough to wipe off all GPU's anyway, and still give the owners of these miners a reasonable profit. From a marketing point of view it was a great move to not build their most powerful ASIC at first, and instead released an underpowered one at a hugely inflated price with phenomenal margins.

If Zcash doesn't fork, they'll come out with a more powerful variant with a TDP of 1000-1600 watts, and it'll be 5-10x more powerful but with similar efficiency ratings, and probably a similar pricepoint. Bitmain's playing this game smart.

I'd like to share some thoughts on the criticism that zcash is moving away from being decentralized with ASIC equihash miners coming out. The zcash network hashrate is already centralized and has been for a while. Flypool has had over 51% of the nethash for A REALLY REALLY long time, and that hasn't been criticized nearly as much as it should be. Why? Because miners love the luck flypool provides, and the money that comes with it.

Who the hell is this NEWBIE?  You have absolutely NO CLUE what the hell you are talking about and only worthy of an "ignore."

GPU Miners are supposedly all "greedy."  Yet, this idiot makes no comments as to BITMAIN's greed and desire to control and dominate the entire PoW space.

Simply ignore this ASIC-Shill.

Another idiot stating some kind of "natural progression of things."

The developers of a blockchain decide WHAT is to be "natural" on their blockchain and what "progression" is to occur on their blockchain.  If the developers determine they want an ASIC-Resistance algorithm, then they have determined what they want to be "natural" on their algorithm and what will or will not "progress" on their algorithm.

NOTE the following excellent proposal for PROG POW algorithm:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=P6B-ZCyP6K8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=P6B-ZCyP6K8)

PROG POW LINK:  https://github.com/ifdefelse/ProgPOW (https://github.com/ifdefelse/ProgPOW)

All you're doing is proving to the community you're nothing more than a "Shill" for BITMAIN.

Vote submited ... you know my choice my friend :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=P6B-ZCyP6K8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=P6B-ZCyP6K8)

Thanks for having an open mind and taking the RED PILL.

I believe the majority of devs for alt-coins would agree ASIC's [At this current time] are a plague to this space.  Mainly because one manufacturer runs the show and therefore risks centralization of mining by one dominant party with potentially more than 50% of the network hash.

NO ONE COMPANY should be trusted with the manufacturing and distribution of money printing machines.

With that said, I can see your point and agree with you in regards to AN INDIVIDUAL being oppressed by their government in regards to hardware costs, import duties, VAT, etc... to price you out of being profitable as a GPU miner.  I'm sorry, but for the sake of decentralization in mining of a coin, we cannot throw decentralization of mining to the winds so those who are oppressed by their government can mine with hardware that WILL NOT PROMOTE DECENTRALIZATION IN MINING.

YOU are the one who is whining!

I suggest you invest your energy and efforts towards your oppressive CENTRALIZED government rather than complaining about the community of a DECENTRALIZED CURRENCY not cooperating with your oppressive CENTRALIZED government to make getting into mining more financially viable for you.

I used to be like you when I first began mining in June, 2014.  I was always there to support BITMAIN and defend them from those who spoke ill of them.

HOWEVER, as I continued in the mining space longer I began to see how one company's domination of the space was a threat to decentralization.  That domination also created many other benefits for Bitmain.  Especially, in the trading space to make it easier for them to manipulate markets.  The list goes on and on.

I hope some day you will also take the RED PILL instead of remaining content in your ignorance.

Do NOT think when I use the word, "ignorance" that I'm insulting your intelligence; because I'm NOT.  For I too was IGNORANT at one time.

And another who took the RED PILL and knows the truth.

It took me a couple of years from 2014 to figure this out before I got out of ASIC mining and stopped supporting BITMAIN.

Welcome, and keep spreading the RED PILL to others.

Regards,

David

aka:  ProwdClown on Trading View and ZCash Forum:  https://www.tradingview.com/u/ProwdClown/ (https://www.tradingview.com/u/ProwdClown/)         https://forum.z.cash/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/2295 (https://forum.z.cash/t/let-s-talk-about-asic-mining/27353/2295)

So again, heres the thing. ASICs do not equal centralization, anyone can buy them, run them, and point them where they want. All you people talk about decentralization as it is some buzzword to trump all others when I dont think you quite have the grasp of what it is. Just because Bitmain is the first to release a miner, does not make it the only manufacturer capable of producing them. You realize Innosilicon, Halong, BW, Obelisk and Baikal (im probably forgetting one or two) all make altcoin ASICs as well right? In the bitcoin space there is even more competition. Just because bitmain is the largest doesnt make them the only one.

Heres another example of your centralization fallacy...I run a large datacenter. I manage over 10,000 GPUs here (and 11k ASICs). As a bulk buyer I get priority over other customers when I order GPUs, and I can run as many as I want here. The only difference is the GPU systems are a pain in the ass and the ASICs are more of a 'set it and forget it' item. Large scale mining on GPUs is already happening...do you really think the shortage of cards was from you hobby miners running 6 or 12 cards? No it was people like me buying them by the thousand until the market ran out of cards to sell. The 12 cards you run versus my 10,000 doesnt help with decentralization at all by your definition of it. You use the word ignorance, which is a bit funny because you are a shining example of it. You read all this crap on the forums about ASIC BAD, then regurgitate it like it was your own independent thought.


P.S. Ill put your few years of hobby mining up against my years of experience in this industry if you want to brag about how long you have been doing it.

Hi CryptoMined,

I have posted a question to Shawn on ZCash Forum.  Let's see what response we get...

https://i.imgur.com/Cvzxy0N.png

Look dude, I'm done with you.  

This is my last response to you.  You're being ignored after this post.

I'm not even going to waste my valuable time responding to you.  I'll let you decide when and/or if you will humble yourself in order to deflate that puffed up head of yours.  Why?  Because it's so puffed up you can't take it out of your arss to see the damn RED PILL to even swallow it.

Good riddance...  Not wasting my time with you anymore.

winning arguments by ignoring them.. .classic

Seeing pictures of those 10000+ GPU nightmares doesn't instill visions of decentralization, quite the opposite actually. Are any of those distributors limiting the selling of 10000 GPU to one entity, yeah probably not. Have people seen the pool ratios on suprnova for RVN, ZEN, ZEC? Several 1000 GPU farms going on there.

I'm not necessary for or against GPU or ASIC, but I'm not going to ignore GPU hoarding like fanatic26 and pretend GPU are any better. Whenever that argument gets brought it's conveniently ignored.. .

So because  massive GPU farms exist, we should encourge ASICS which will make the matter worse?

Let me share a post in another forum on another website by user, Lisfin:

GPUs are WAY more available to get then ASICs. To say GPUs are currently hard to get is incorrect. Sure there was a month or 2 when they were overpriced, that was due to the high demand when they had a ROI of 90 days.

Even then you could still buy a smaller graphics card, they were not ALL sold out. The 1070/1080 TIs were the hard ones to get, other models were more available.

What advantage would we have if everyone moved to ASICs? It would just raise the current bar for everyone, reduce us to one supplier of hardware, and starts a arms race. Atleast with GPUs we are all on a level playing field without having to worry someone will have a GPU that does x100 the hashrate for 1/10th the power. All the hardware is relatively close to each other in terms of performance, keeping the difficulty from ramping up x10-x100.

ASICs dont save power, they dont make the network more secure, they are limited in availability, only have 3 to 6 month warrantys, run loud and hot, manufacturers keep a large number of the them for themselves and keep secret other rigs that are far better then sell them as new later while replacing them with new hardware, etc...

This is suppose to be a ASIC resistant coin, why dont you ASIC people go mine other ASIC coins available. Ohhhh ya thats right, you cant make your money back off them ASIC coins anymore because of the difficulty have ramped up so much. So you want to come and ruin Zcash’s difficulty with ASICs to make a quick buck and act like its the future of mining.

Please people, you have your ASIC coins, we have our GPU coins. Clearly yours are not working because here you are…trying to get in over here because the profits are gone from your ASIC coins.

Even if there are people/groups with large pockets who can buy large quantities of GPU's, it does NOT mean THERE WILL BE ONE BIG GROUP WHO CAN CONTROL AS MUCH AS 50+ PERCENT OF THE HASHING POWER.

With ASIC's, not only do you have that threat from those same people/groups with big money but ALSO THE MANUFACTURER(s).  We don't have that threat {at least not yet} of NVIDIA and AMD doing what BITMAIN does with their hardware.

Excellent question...  I just recently shared a post from someone else in another forum on the subject.  Lets see how they respond.

The reason I ignored the other person, he said nothing to address the points I made in other posts.  Instead, he/she insisted on bloviating the same BS I've heard many others say.  When he says it, he comes across as demeaning and refers to those of us who support GPU mining as "stupid."

Hi CryptoMined,

Daira, is looking into it tomorrow.  It's currently 1:50am for her now.

https://i.imgur.com/w83eTUH.png

Massive farms exist... so what. You're looking at it the wrong way.

I can buy miner-grade GPUs from dozens of outlets in my own country. Even from a real shop in town if I can be bothered.

Something like 25% of Steam's userbase have a mining capable machine. There are 24 million copies of 'PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds' sold. Each of those copies belongs to one person with a mining capable machine.

How many people in the world own ASICS? How many shops in the world sell them? GPU mining gear is available through the same channels as enthusiast PC gear. It's a different world.

And since everyone knows about GPU mining now, you can bet that many gamers are evolving into cryptominers.

The potential for decentralised mining is so much greater with GPUs than ASICS.

So TRUE...

Thanks for sharing, Apocalypse.

two and three year warranties are why I like gpus.

Sane running of gpus they don’t break.

But asics are here and won’t be stopped by every developer

zotac extended warranty.....5 years!

so fanatic26 hated GPUs because they are not "set and forget"...imagine the trouble of running them by the 1000s? haha ...and also imagine him managing 1000s of GPUs....and he is thinking "those damn kids making the difficulty higher, i hope their gaming PCs and trash DIY rig explodes!" haha ;D

and also when fanatic26 is purchasing GPUs....i wonder how many times suppliers "limits" his purchase??...pain in the ass indeed..

I said it before and I am saying it again, there is no comparison between a ASIC and GPUs availability. MANY Asian countries have ASICS BANNED UNOFFICIALLY, they seize them in customs. Hoarding of ASIC can lead you to jail even if there is no official law on paper. Any central govt. can put a stop to ASICs and the public wouldn't care. It won't take them much to ban ASICs, it is really easy for them. But the same can't be done with GPUs as they were not made for crypto mining and are required by many different industries of which cryptocurrency mining is a very very tiny fraction. A person living in a small town of a third world country can easily buy a GPU, contribute to the network and get some reward for it which is not possible with ASICs due their retail availability and govt restriction. So no, not anybody can buy and run ASICs. That is an illusion. GPU are the real flag bearers of democratic mining.

Also ASICs would get more respect if there was more competition in the industry instead of Bitmain's monopoly and shady practices which are against proper functioning of capitalism.

gameboy366 >  fanatic26  is like a trump troll who lies and make shit up so he can act like his idea of capitalism is the best one an even says it look at what he runs .. sigh ....He doesn't want GPU around any more and wants to shut out the little guy but will act like he doesn't but doesn't care, i can list all his BS an why he thinks CROPS should rule but won't but will in a few words "look up trump ..." He bought Bone Spur's trump into it not me .

I love this assumption:  "You read all this crap on the forums about ASIC BAD, then regurgitate it like it was your own independent thought." I wish there was a Mueller for ASIC to prove just how bad ASIC is ...

why can't GPU's exist with ASIC there is NO reason why not other then the greedily bastards have to much an now they want it all.

I'm still LMAO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  "I'll let you decide when and/or if you will humble yourself in order to deflate that puffed up head of yours.  Why?  Because it's so puffed up you can't take it out of your arss to see the damn RED PILL to even swallow it."

One should also keep in mind about the possibility of interacting with Bitmain's own 50 cent army. CCP spends billions of dollars on their "50 cent army" in trying to manipulate public opinion in favour of them by using internet trolls. I am sure Bitmain is also running a similar "army" which is active here on Bitcointalk. One should still keep these things in mind.

toptek

That's my old account some one hacked,I'm trying to get back I'm the real owner who would not do what ever that jerk is doing to my account to make it be marked red sigh ..........

Seeing someone saying gpus lead to centralization and then suggesting the problem to that is ASICs is fucking hilarious. Get over yourself dude.

I yup I pretty much thought the same and avoided to post a response explaining the centralization rationale with GPUs and ASICs.  The bottomline is: true, centralization could be achieved even with GPUs but the likelyhood of that happening with GPUs is much much lower than that of ASICs.  I mean you've a live example isn't it?
https://medium.com/@homakov/stop-calling-bitcoin-decentralized-cb703d69dc27

Thanks, doesn't matter too much to me though since I rarely used the forum for the last year.  eitherway :)  removing the 6 month suspension would show good will on their part though... and would make them look less guilty

it is funny shawn got so angry after that video... yet he never stated WHY HE CHANGED THE POST.

so my words stand, I will not remove the video or post any kind of retraction.  I do consider him an employee of ZEC co... unpaid directly ... fine... but still an employee and representative of the company on their company forum.  if shawn really felt that his posts were not a reflection of ZEC co... he would not have edited it.

Oh hell I didnt see this


bwaahahahahahahhahahahahahah


Im as real as it gets and nobody is paying me for shit.

Also you really dont listen to my point. I have never once said GPUs dont have their place. There are hundreds of shitcoins to play with on the GPUs. My whole point is that ASICs are not the devil people make them out to be on this forum, they are the natural progression of a coin once it reaches a certain level. I actually work with GPU mining OS developers on a daily basis, I am not anti GPU at all. I am just not a blind acolyte of the GPU lovers.

You can call me anything you want, but a paid shill? No fucking way. Go look at the last few years of logs, and see that the IP range I log in from 99% of the time has changed once, and thats when I moved from one datacenter to my newer, larger one.


Calling me a shill because im pointing out that most of you dont know your ass from a hole in the ground is beyond silly.

Batch 1 is sold out.   :o

ASICs definitely secure networks better...
must have been GPU miners doing the 51% attack on BTG today...
Jihad Wu would never do anything like that... no .. never...  he wouldn't dare test this kind of attack out on smaller cap coins...

zooko was right, ASIC miners can be trusted more than GPU miners...  he was right, no problem letting bitmain take over your network....

https://s31.postimg.cc/4zxytklnv/btgdoublespend.png

https://twitter.com/bitcoingold/status/997544334508548096
https://forum.bitcoingold.org/t/double-spend-attack-on-exchanges/1362/17

Would have taken only 5000 odd Z9s to do this. This may end in a war which destroys confidence in smaller coins which decided to fork, which probably was the objective.

I knew this would happen, reason why I never invested on any equihash coin, there is nothing amazing or brilliant about zec, monero is in many ways better, the only thing i don't like about monero is the high transaction fees ...

you mean All equihash coins if they decide to fork as even zooko has now admitted that bitmain probably has had over 50% of the zcash network hashrate for months now, maybe up to 6 months... from his interview with coindesk at consensus

Thanks for being the voice of reason.   GPU miners just want the coin manipulated to serve them.   WAIT!  I thought we needed crypto to take away power from the manipulative banking system.  Freaking hilariously hypocritical. 

So show us the proof this was done with ASICs.

Crickets chirping...

I agree sense china steals from the US any time they can who to say the CEO doesn't do some shandy shit with butmian there not held account able for anything they do, so why not,is hows they see it and trumps giving china a pass with ZTE makes "China Great again" is the new buzzword.. trump is pading his Picket with 5 billion from ZTE , who knows how much more.

cryptomined you were right two year ago about the trump reality show and china is taking advantage of it any way they can including with who controls the cryptosystem.

I'm willing to bet the CEO of butmain has to ask china's President to do some stuff to the US and the world or China has a lot of say in what butmain does .

Prove it was done with GPU's

The educated guess would point to ASIC's being used, as it is commonly discussed that this exact attack is the primary risk of ASIC's towards small cap coins...
However when one entity currently controls over 50% of the zec network, it is also a risk to zec... and it was zooko that took the educated guess that bitmain has over 50% of network hashrate now.


This is a major risk with allowing a chinese company to control the hashrate of any POW coin... bitmain and other chinese ASIC manufactuers can easily be controlled by the chinese government... and that is not a nice thought.  (since i live in china i can speak from being on the ground here)

Some times you don't need proof that's how obvious it is . sigh .From what I see in Documentary's on TV, YouTube and read about, i thought the Chinese government controlled all the big crops in china .

Hi CryptoMined,

Sure, I was happy to try, Sir.

I agree, it would show good will on their part.  Something tells me they won't lift the ban and leave it for 6 months.

I consider Shawn an employee as well.  You're right, he would not have edited his posts if he was not actually a representative of ZEC co.

I'm honestly beginning to have doubts ZEC will fork off ASIC; at least in time enough to avoid doing a lot of harm to GPU miners.  It won't be long before we may be forced to mine other Privacy coins that actually forked when others did not.

I will have absolutely NOTHING to do with those coins that do not fork off ASIC.  N O T H I N G !!!  No trading or mining of that coin.  I hope a large number of GPU Miners will do the same.

I'm about to head to bed.  It's currently 10:07am and I've been awake since 3:00pm yesterday (19 hours).

Happy Mining, Sir.

cool :) its all good, thanks for trying :)

have a goodnight

This is how ASICs make networks more secure (from huobi.pro):

Announcement on the Suspension of BTG deposits

Dear users,

Due to blockchain network instability of BTG，Huobi Pro has suspended BTG deposits. We apologize for the incovenience that this may cause. Thank you for your understanding.

Huobi Pro

May 19, 2018

https://s7.postimg.cc/4lj0l9dwb/btgdoublespend2.png

Note that we can expect this same attack to cause problems on all equihash chains now, especially BTG, Zen, ZClassic, Bitcoin Private, Komodo, & Hush.  All of the smaller cap coins are at risk of being devastated...  and again, even zec might be at risk, though the chances of bitmain biting off the hand that feeds is less than them attacking the smaller cap coins

lol.

is this another newbie with no clue?

Is this another BITMAIN shill?

Is this the best you can do is, "lol?"

Go back and read my posts since 2014.  You'll see that I was once an ASIC Miner.  I was an avid supporter of Bitmain and defended them all the time by those who would speak ill of them.  Then after a couple of years, I woke up (Took the RED PILL).

I had 42 x BITMAIN S7's mining at my house just before I sold them February, 2016 and began GPU mining.  I have EXPERIENCE with ASIC's and have seen their plague on the community since the S1.  I too had S1, S3, S4, S5, S7, and Spondoolies SP-20's.  I'm not going to bother explaining AGAIN how ASIC's are not the best way to operate and secure a PoW Blockchain.  Especially, where corrupt centralized governments are involved.  I know this through EXPERIENCE.  Unlike many newbies in here who are played as fools by BITMAIN and its ASIC's just as I once was.  Enjoy you bliss in your ignorance while it lasts.

loooooooooooooooool.   Tilt.

LOL... This guy actually believes I'm tilting...  Really?  I'm a professional gambler as well.  I don't tilt.  However, I do know a rookie when I see one.  I also know a "shill" when I see one.

Of course you are.  ::)

Another shill who can't debate who would rather act like a child in elementary school.  Not worth my time and effort.  "Ignored."

Well you're running around crying like an irc script kiddie from 1994.

Get your shit together.  ::)

You're not adding any value/content to the thread.
@dmwardjr  please, dftt

Another "ignored" newbie who thinks people actually give a damn about their opinion of someone else.

https://forum.z.cash/t/asics-in-zcash-software-proof-of-work-proof-of-stake-fork-discussion/28897/46 (https://forum.z.cash/t/asics-in-zcash-software-proof-of-work-proof-of-stake-fork-discussion/28897/46)


https://i.imgur.com/XHH6jMt.png

dude still crying.

just unreal

So whats the current status with zec about forking still a no go or remain to be seen?Also glad that there are people outthere calling out zooko out about promised asic resistance and him talking how asics are a good thing...

Remains to be seen in my opinion with Zooko still actively marketing two chains (ASIC/GPU) to benefit his own economic interest with double dev fees.  I posted a link into the thread he marketed two chains in previous post.  His post is number 32 in that thread which I commented.

From what I gather, the ZEC developers are punting the issue to focus on other updates that were already planned. The may look into doing something toward the end of the year, but that's too little too late as far as I am concerned (if they do anything at all).

Yes, I agree for the most part in regards to "too little too late."  Hard to say for certain but odds are, you're probably correct.

I started a new topic for you, CryptoMined...

Here's the link to it:  https://forum.z.cash/t/prog-proof-of-work-as-potential-solution-for-asic-resistance/29101 (https://forum.z.cash/t/prog-proof-of-work-as-potential-solution-for-asic-resistance/29101)

If there is ANYTHING you want me to add to that thread I created, shoot me a PM and let me know then consider it done.


https://i.imgur.com/WdGxa0Z.png

as long as he has a pact/agreement with bitmain, i dont see him doing anything cause bitmain can always pump zcash as per the agreement and all will be well. The right thing to do is boycott zcash as a whole and let bitmain to have 100% of all zec coins and whoever buys zec at whatever price bitmain pumped to is a fool/idiot. Sell all your zec coins and let bitmain pump it to 1k, dump to $100 then pump to $1k and so on. Bitmain has done it twice already and you trolls never saw it cause you never said anything hehe

IMHO..
I mine for profit (or hoping to be profit)
The fact is not clear at the moment zcash standpoint to asic. I read somewhere (..sorry forgot the link) the decission or the official vote will be in June.
But, again IMO its not going to be asic resist ( or at least it will not be implemented within 1-2 month, enough time for asic to run and get ROI, and maybe profit)

 as no asic is delivered for equihash yet
if you felt betrayed, left zcash
if you mine for profit with gpu, wait a bit till the price suitable for you, than left zcash
 in time when asic is up and running and zcash not implemented asic resistance
if you still have your gpu, mine if its still profitable if not left
if you asic is up and running, beware of the second batch/wave of asic equihash
  in time when asic is up and running and zcash already implemented asic resistance
if you have asic, go to other coin if possible
if you still have gpu, try if it still profitable..if not left zcash

z9mini is not the only asic in this equihash, there is also ASICminer Equihash 40,000 Sol/s https://asicminer.co/shop/asicminer-equihash (https://asicminer.co/shop/asicminer-equihash)

I'm not the one advocating that 51% attacks are a problem.   I don't care who has the hashing power or how it is used.  It's just natural selection.   Some coins will be killed.   That's good.  Do we really need more than a handful of cryptos?  Just let the free, open market sort everything out.  Fighting the ASICs only DECREASES the chance of more competition eventually emerging.   It's a short-term gain, long-term loss fool's errand.

I see a future with official government cryptos that operate on a universal network to allow cheap and easy but accountable transactions worldwide, excluding craphole, poorly governed countries that refuse to participate.  That's why a handful of old school cryptos will explode after the coming crypto winter.

Once crypto is backed by GDP, it will be universally accepted and useable because it will be stable.

Speaking of which, you should applaud Bitmain for backing Circle/USD Coin.   That's definitely a step in the right direction.

Well you just have it all figured out don't you.  lol

Notice how these new user accounts come on to shill for BITMAIN with their worthless two cents?  What was said there is so laughable, I'm not even going to try to give a proper response. It would be a waste of my valuable time.

These newbies not only act as though they are mining experts but also act as if they are economic and financial experts.  lol

The spelling and all is terrible.  Are you Chinese?  Do you work for Bitmain?

That "official government cryptos" line seems familiar, I think I read it several times today.

It's like they get discussion points sent out in a newsletter or something.

You've obviously never tried using this forum on mobile while running on a treadmill.  It's darn difficult to see what the heck you are typing or if the auto-correct in Swiftkey has chosen the wrong words.  They really need to make this site more friendly to mobile.

I'd like to see your arguments against GDP backed cryptos, thinning the crypto market and the USD Coin.  Too bad your ethnocentric viewpoints have taken over your judgement.  Ohio native BTW.  I joined this forum for info on the FPGAs I'm migrating to, and I'd wager I have as much or more experience in crypto than most people here.  If you'd like to discuss things civilly, I'd be up for it.

You wouldn't like a crypto similar to the speed and ease of use of something like NANO or IOTA that was backed by the US government's GDP and pegged to the dollar?  Every ATM would be able to instantly switch between fiat and crypto and instantly update all account information.

It would probably require hardware acceleration like HPB to keep the TPS high enough, and it would definitely need 0Conf for small purchases and confirmations under 30 seconds for larger ones, but all that is definitely possible.

Everything is just way too volatile as things stand now for mass adoption.

you see a future that is centralized... controlled, pegged...

bitmain backed circle usd coin as a bribe so they could bulid mining farms in the states.  this was done for their best interests, not ours... they never have our best interests at heart.

the whole idea of crypto was supposed to get us away from centralization... away from politicians and governments that can be bribed... away from corruption...

when corrupt companies can do things the rest of the public can not - that is not an open market

if crypto is too volatile for you, stick to the USD.  crypto doesn't need you.  if you prefer centralized corrupt currencies... you already have them and you can want more... but don't tell us what we want... we know what we want.

as for natural selection... medicine is also a part of natural selection and ProgPOW is the medicine that POW crypto's need

Well spoken, Cryptomined.

I'm banned now on ZCash Forum...   ROFL...

I'm banned for posting what a Moderator said.  Instead of him coming back with a comment to try to CLARIFY his statement, he bans me.  ROFL...

I'm about to ACTIVELY PROMOTE ZEN.

I'm going to PROVE to ZCash Company and ZCash Foundation that ONE PERSON CAN ACTUALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

Keep up the great work, Cryptomined.

https://i.imgur.com/gQHwOoQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/jDqCKHk.png

https://i.imgur.com/mOaXt6B.png

So they think following ETH's example is the best way forward.

Move on...

Move on to ZEN.

LOL

yeah root, he was a good guy, used to chat with him a lot, but he is very pro asic... and now he is a zcash mod... heh.. a sellout... he loves bitmain... and loves bcash... and loves roger ver pump and dump scammer... him and zooko have a lot in common...

anyways they can all go F themselves.. that forum died well over a year ago... its been worthless since the end of 2016... 

Yes sir.  Agreed.

As soon as my mining room remodel is completed within the next 7 to 8 days, I'm going to PROVE to Zcash that ONE person can't actually make a difference in the scheme of things.

I'm about to go on a major campaign to promote ZEN and demote ZEC.

hopefully zen doesnt get hurt by the asics through 51% attacks... a lot of good coins like zen and komodo are at risk now... these are great projects that don't deserve to get screwed over because of bitmains greed.

fact about root - he was only in it for the money - said so himself... sad they promote someone like that to moderator... heh.. i guess its a business so zec co and him have more in common with each other...

I was thinking the same thing, in regards to the 51% attacks.  Especially after that episode with BTG.

Yes sir, very sad indeed they promote someone like that to Moderator.

Anyway, I'm jumping on the ZEN wagon and going to do some serious marketing for ZEN soon because [Like you've said] Zcash does not have our best interest at heart.

Have a good day/evening, CryptoMined, and keep up the great work, Sir.

The network hash rate for Zcash is beginning to go up quite a bit.  This is only the beginning.  It's going to get worse.  You can bet BITMAIN is distributing their Z9 hash across all Equihash coins at the top of http://whattomine.com/coins (http://whattomine.com/coins).  However, I believe they are increasing their hash with NOT the Z9 "mini" but with Z9 "Beast."  {Made up the name "Beast"} They are selling the "mini" to gullible peons who have no idea what's in store for them.

Zcash network hash currently at 656 MH/s at this writing.  By the time Equihash coins get around to a fork of some kind, it may be too late.  Equihash ASIC's will have pushed GPU miners away from Equihash Algorithm coins to other coins; which will drive up their difficulty.  This is about to get messy for GPU miners.

Whenever ZEN, BTG and other small Equihash coins do get around to making an announcement with a DATE OF A FORK, don't be surprised if we see 51% attacks just before those dates.  The networks are about to get extremely vulnerable to BITMAIN.

EDIT:  Zcash Forum banned me till May 21, 3018.  NOT 2018.   THREE thousand eighteen.  ROFL....

Has ZEN decided to fork?  Afaik they are debating on it.
https://github.com/ZencashOfficial/zen/issues/142#issuecomment-386822193

Fuck off ZEC, sell your coins, and move power to another coin, let it die "In love" with ASICs, like another coins.

It is always sad to see a company sign their own death sentence, but i can see why they are doing it. They dont want to waste all that time they spent on updates that they would have to throw down the toilet if they decided to fork.
RIP ZEC.

So lets see....when presented with reasoned arguments or requests for proof to backup your claims all you can do is call them a bitmain shill because you have no legit answers when called out.

You call people out as newbies like a post count is all that matters. Yet another deflection tactic because you dont have any facts to back up your tin foil hat theories.

Now you are going to try and call people out because their English isn't impeccable? News flash, this is a site used by people around the word, they dont all speak English as a first language, yet have learned enough to communicate on here. All you can do is act like a bigot and make baseless accusations, kind of pitiful really.

I feel sorry for ZEN, having someone like you advertising for them will do more harm then good.

lol this hillbilly said he used to obtain bitcoin by ANY MEANS necessary.

Now all of the sudden, flippity floppaty floop.   ::)

It will be sweet when they decide forking is a losing battle.

Another "NEW" account shilling.  Having fun, BITMAIN?  I suspect not....



https://i.imgur.com/Aj94Ray.png

GPUs are WAY more available to get then ASICs. To say GPUs are currently hard to get is incorrect. Sure there was a month or 2 when they were overpriced, that was due to the high demand when they had a ROI of 90 days.

Even then you could still buy a smaller graphics card, they were not ALL sold out. The 1070/1080 TIs were the hard ones to get, other models were more available.

What advantage would we have if everyone moved to ASICs? It would just raise the current bar for everyone, reduce us to one supplier of hardware, and starts a arms race. Atleast with GPUs we are all on a level playing field without having to worry someone will have a GPU that does x100 the hashrate for 1/10th the power. All the hardware is relatively close to each other in terms of performance, keeping the difficulty from ramping up x10-x100.

ASICs dont save power, they dont make the network more secure, they are limited in availability, only have 3 to 6 month warrantys, run loud and hot, manufacturers keep a large number of the them for themselves and keep secret other rigs that are far better then sell them as new later while replacing them with new hardware, etc...

This is suppose to be a ASIC resistant coin, why dont you ASIC people go mine other ASIC coins available. Ohhhh ya thats right, you cant make your money back off them ASIC coins anymore because of the difficulty have ramped up so much. So you want to come and ruin Zcash’s difficulty with ASICs to make a quick buck and act like its the future of mining.  I'm HERE to tell you, that QUICK buck is an ILLUSION.

Most who KNOW me, know I've been in the space for a while and have had a LOT of experience with BITMAIN.  My LAST round of ASIC's I bought from them was 42 x Bitmain S7's in late 2015.  All of which I sold in February 2016 and never looked back.  I USED to be the one to DEFEND them when they were attacked by others and I believe many KNOW this.  THEN I TOOK THE RED PILL AND WOKE UP in February, 2016!!!  I did a LOT of research and weighing pros and cons of GPU versus ASIC.  ASIC would be fine "IF" {and it's a big if} the manufacturing of ASIC's were not CENTRALIZED, if governments did not pose a risk of banning ASIC's when they are shipped into their country, [GPU's are not so easily banned; as they have multiple purposes], and manufacturers pulling shenanigans in regards to better hardware while selling the scraps to unwary greedy driven miners trying to make a buck while being oblivious to the true "end" of what Bitmain works towards.  Which is lining their own pockets at the expense of unwary individuals who are being seriously taken advantage of.

The key word being "potential."  Plus just changing Equihash parameters may not disable the Z9.

For someone who supposedly uses English so well and has so much experience in mining, you sure are an ignorant, racist DA.

No surprise you were banned on the ZEC forum.

What a joke!  No wonder you call yourself Clown.

Be "prowd" to be the first on my ignore list.

ANOTHER NEW account, "Newbie" shilling for BITMAIN with NO "support" for their side of an argument.  The only strategy they have is "name call."

A real winner here guys.  ROFL...   ;D

Zcash is currently the leader of Equihash coins in hash rate and exchange price.  It's TIME to bring GPU miners over to a REAL coin with the advantages of DASH and ZEC combined.  Know what coin that is?

I'm DONE trying to get Zcash to do the right thing.  That's not my agenda.

ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN, ZEN. etc....

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2047435.0

Sure....    ;D

Absolutely fine by me as well. 

Well said!!!

Fairly certain that most people scream :"FORK! FORK" not because of principals, but because of pure greed. There is no stopping ASICs whether you like it or not. Adapt or die.

Spoken like a true "Noob."  So, Pro-ASIC's aren't greedy and all greed falls on GPU Miners?  We have a smart one here...   ROFL...  Be my guest to continue in your ignorance (lack of knowledge through experience).

I wonder how far back you've read in this thread?

Care to elaborate how there's "...no stopping ASIC's...?"

So, you have "principles" by supporting "centralized" mining controlled by one MAJOR manufacturer?

Amen. Gpu miners have had it too good for too long. They buy gpus, make a killing , then sell it for the same price if not more then they bought it for. Try doing that on a 2 year old asic. They are about to find out what real losses can be like.

ROFL... You guys are pathetic...  ROFL....

GPUs are WAY more available to get than ASICs. To say GPUs are currently hard to get is incorrect. Sure there was a month or two when they were overpriced, that was due to the high demand when they had a ROI of 90 days.

Even then you could still buy a smaller graphics card, they were not ALL sold out. The 1070/1080 TIs were the hard ones to get, other models were more available.

What advantage would we have if everyone moved to ASICs? It would just raise the current bar for everyone, reduce us to one supplier of hardware, and starts a arms race. Atleast with GPUs we are all on a level playing field without having to worry someone will have a GPU that does x100 the hashrate for 1/10th the power. All the hardware is relatively close to each other in terms of performance, keeping the difficulty from ramping up x10-x100.

ASICs dont save power, they dont make the network more secure, they are limited in availability, only have 3 to 6 month warrantys, run loud and hot, manufacturers keep a large number of the them for themselves and keep secret other rigs that are far better then sell them as new later while replacing them with new hardware, etc...

This is suppose to be a ASIC resistant algorithm, why dont you ASIC people go mine other ASIC coins available. Ohhhh ya thats right, you cant make your money back off them ASIC coins anymore because the difficulty has ramped up so much. So you want to come and ruin Zcash’s difficulty with ASICs to make a quick buck and act like its the future of mining.  I'm HERE to tell you, that QUICK buck is an ILLUSION created by BITMAIN and your own greed.

As you KNOW, I've been in the space for a while and have had a LOT of experience with BITMAIN.  My LAST round of ASIC's I bought from them was 42 x Bitmain S7's in late 2015.  All of which I sold in February 2016 and never looked back.  I USED to be the one to DEFEND them when they were attacked by others and I believe you KNOW this.  THEN I TOOK THE RED PILL AND WOKE UP in February, 2016!!!  I did a LOT of research and weighing pros and cons of GPU versus ASIC.  ASIC would be fine "IF" {and it's a big if} the manufacturing of ASIC's were not CENTRALIZED, if governments did not pose a risk of banning ASIC's when they are shipped into their country, [GPU's are not so easily banned; as they have multiple purposes], and manufacturers pulling shenanigans in regards to better hardware while selling the scraps to unwary greedy driven miners trying to make a buck while being oblivious to the true "end" of what Bitmain works towards.  Which is lining their own pockets at the expense of unwary individuals who are being seriously taken advantage of.

Oh boy...  Do you guys NOT SEE YOUR OWN INSANITY???

Your reasoning:  GPU Miners are making too much money cause you ASIC guys fell for the ILLUSION propagated by BITMAIN.  You're OWN GREED clouded your judgement.  While GPU Miners made the CORRECT DECISION to break off from BITMAIN and their MONOPOLY.

NOW, here you go again allowing the grand illusion propagated by BITMAIN to DECEIVE you ONCE AGAIN.  ROFL...  You guys ARE INSANE...  Cause  you are REPEATING AGAIN... ROFL...

You think trying the same thing AGAIN will produce different results.  It's called INSANITY.  No?

I guess you have to learn the hard way like I did.   >:(  I started with the S1 and stopped with the S7 before I finally woke up.

Oh well... Go ahead... CONTINUE in BITMAIN's grand illusion and see where it gets you.

Gave you fair warning....   Don't listen....  Your choice...

Once again:  This is suppose to be a ASIC resistant algorithm, why dont you ASIC people go mine other ASIC coins available. Ohhhh ya thats right, you cant make your money back off them ASIC coins anymore because the difficulty has ramped up so much. So you want to come and ruin Zcash’s difficulty with ASICs to make a quick buck and act like its the future of mining.  I'm HERE to tell you, that QUICK buck is an ILLUSION created by BITMAIN and your own greed.

Shouldn't you get some professional help ? You seem.. err.. stressed

My only principle is to be better than screaming and bleeding imbeciles such as yourself

And another one who has no real argument to support their INSANITY and resorts to name calling.  You guys are in desperate need of counseling.  Well, I'm offering it here at no charge...

So, seeing that you want to ignore my previous post, let's allow you to see it once again:

Do you guys NOT SEE YOUR OWN INSANITY???

Your reasoning:  GPU Miners are making too much money cause you ASIC guys fell for the ILLUSION propagated by BITMAIN.  Your OWN GREED clouded your judgement.  While GPU Miners made the CORRECT DECISION to break off from BITMAIN and their MONOPOLY.

NOW, here you go AGAIN allowing the grand illusion propagated by BITMAIN to DECEIVE you.  ROFL...  You guys ARE INSANE...  Cause you are REPEATING it AGAIN... ROFL...

You think trying the same thing AGAIN will produce different results.  It's called INSANITY.  No?

I guess you have to learn the hard way like I did.   >:(  I started with the S1 and stopped with the S7 before I finally woke up.

Oh well... Go ahead... CONTINUE in BITMAIN's grand illusion and see where it gets you.

Gave you fair warning....   Don't listen....  Your choice...

Once again:  This is suppose to be an ASIC resistant algorithm, why dont you ASIC people go mine other ASIC coins available. Ohhhh, thats right, you can't make your money back off ASIC coins anymore because the difficulty has ramped up so much. So you want to come and ruin Zcash’s difficulty with ASICs to make a quick buck and act like its the future of mining.  I'm HERE to tell you, that QUICK buck is an ILLUSION created by BITMAIN and your own greed.

Theres a lot you dont know about asics if the last one you bought was in 2015. I mine on gpus too, i dont hate them , i just know their beat. They are inefficient and becoming more obsolete every month. Cn7 is already being mined on FPGAs. Unforkable FPGAs should be a gpu miners worst nightmare once they hit in numbers, not asics.

Do you think coin devs have the money and the time to keep forking over and over, just to keep die hard gpu miners happy? they will inevitably give in, their projects goals will come first. They get paid either way with the block reward. If they dont like it they can switch to x16r/s.

Dont you think cpu miners had the same beef with gpu s ruining their profits back at the start of the decade. Everyone has a cpu, but not everyone has a killer gpu or 6. Gpu s are still overpriced and gamers hate the lot of ya. If asics wont destroy gpu mining then FPGAs definately will.

Most people dont care about manufacturer centralization , they dont mine for free just to support a decentralized network , they mine for a profit , with the most profitable pool on the most profitable hardware whoever hosts or makes it they dont care. If they do support a network that isnt the most profitable then they just expect an even bigger profit when they dump their coins on a pump and move on.

A quick buck is an illusion?, tell that to early x3 owners, their laughing and probably even thanking downrampers like you who scared off a majority of potential buyers of the x3, reducing difficulty and increasing their profits, theyd be close to ROI if not already and they could still sell their rig for a profit. Yes s*** will hit the fan on the 30th but by then everything they mine will be complete profit or soon to be even if it isnt much.

In a perfect world it would be great if asics and fpgas didnt exist. But they do, so adapt or live with it.

I have PLENTY of friends with S9's and L3's as well dude.  A good friend of mine has total of 300 S9's and L3's who also GPU mines.  I'm familiar with ASIC's full well.  Exactly what has changed that I'm ignorant of?  They are pretty much plug and play.   ROFL...

I'm familiar with FPGA's as well.  I'm currently looking into them now.

Just Because some don't care about centralization means simply ignoring it; give up and don't educate people?

I'm done responding to your insanity.  You THINK your response has merit and is supposed to somehow refute the insanity I said you're in?  You will wake up to the grand illusion you due time.

So adapt and live with it once the RED PILL is forced down your throat.  It's a LOT easier if you will take it willingly.  It appears you're going to have it forced fed down your throat in due time and you're NOT going to like it.

I wont deny that asics can be risky. The d3 was a shocker, and the a3 almost didnt make it to ROI on some batches, bitmain can be risky. But on the right batches, bought at sensible times, most have been very profitable.

You shouldnt have stopped at the s7, the s9 was a goldmine if you bought it in the first few months, and they were readily available.

 If you dont have the patience to wait for batch releases then people can miss out, sure you could buy gpus anytime, anyday but that availability doesnt allow you to sell a gpu like you could sell a  baikal giant b at 15k now does it.

If you ONLY KNEW how profitable I've been with GPU's.  Especially, during 2016 and 2017.  If you ONLY knew.  I'm VERY pleased I never bought another ASIC.  In fact, I still have several R9 380 rigs I bought in May of 2016 making a profit.

Most ALL of my hardware was purchased in 2016 and HAS REACHED ROI THREE TIMES OVER.

I purchased a lot of NVIDIA's in 2017 and the majority of them have reached ROI.

Page 6 of a forum I created on where my small farm is now:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2865914.100 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2865914.100)

Im well aware they were profitable, all im saying is things change, bitmain has screwed with your potential future profits, so how are you going to deal with that? Complaining only gets you so far. Its just capitalism comrade.

Your looking into FPGAs? To buy them i assume.. Your a hypocrite!

You think I'm complaining when that's NOT it at all.

I have my speculation of a Plan A, B and C based on future events.  That's something I personally have spent a lot of time researching to determine for myself what to do if certain circumstances should arise.  I'm not sharing those circumstances here or in private.  I'll let others figure that out for themselves like I did.

I'm here for the long haul...  I'm not going anywhere cause GPU's are not going anywhere.  You'll see...  Cause BITMAIN is about to ruin it for themselves and prove what I've been preaching all along in due time.  There will be a LOT of pissed off miners if what I think may play out actually plays out.

You have no idea, dude.

Be careful what you say, before writing it down.

Tell me what the difference is between ALL FPGA Manufacturers and one monopolistic manufacturer called, BITMAIN...

The only difference between an FPGA and a GPU is it can be programmed to mine most ANY algo.  However, we don't have the concern of one manufacturer DOMINATING like we do BITMAIN do we?

Please be careful when accusing someone without gathering all evidence to support your accusation.  

You also need to read previous posts of mine in this forum:  NOTE THE PURPLE TEXT IN THAT QUOTE:

Most who KNOW me, know I've been in the space for a while and have had a LOT of experience with BITMAIN.  My LAST round of ASIC's I bought from them was 42 x Bitmain S7's in late 2015.  All of which I sold in February 2016 and never looked back.  I USED to be the one to DEFEND them when they were attacked by others and I believe many KNOW this.  THEN I TOOK THE RED PILL AND WOKE UP in February, 2016!!!  I did a LOT of research and weighing pros and cons of GPU versus ASIC.  ASIC would be fine "IF" {and it's a big if} the manufacturing of ASIC's were not CENTRALIZED, if governments did not pose a risk of banning ASIC's when they are shipped into their country, [GPU's are not so easily banned; as they have multiple purposes], and manufacturers pulling shenanigans in regards to better hardware while selling the scraps to unwary greedy driven miners trying to make a buck while being oblivious to the true "end" of what Bitmain works towards.  Which is lining their own pockets at the expense of unwary individuals who are being seriously taken advantage of.

Your against zec not forking but you want to be apart of a new miner that will destroy the profit of gpu mining for Cn7 and zec and zec if it forks. An FPGA that will greatly centralize hashrate to 1 or 2 major FPGA manufacturers, oh that arent bitmain.

You STILL DON"T GET IT... What's your problem???

Read the last post I just posted where I QUOTE MYSELF then THINK...  GEEEEEEEEZ. So quick to judge.

IF YOU READ MY POSTS YOU WILL SEE (UNDERSTAND) WHAT I'M AGAINST.

Your accusing people of shrilling for bitmain cause they are pro zec non fork

BITMAIN IS "THE" DOMINATING MANUFACTURER... among other reasons.  You STILL don't get it...  Just forget it...   You're not seeing it cause you do not WANT to see it.  You only want to judge and condemn.

I gave SEVERAL reasons in SEVERAL posts a few pages back as to WHY NOT BITMAIN and WHY BITMAIN IS A PLAGUE TO THE INDUSTRY.

That post you quoted also gives some of those reasons. It's NOT just one reason, dude.  It's a CULMINATION of reasons.

This is all about above, just because someones a low poster or a newbie doesnt automatically make them a shriller, forking is futile.

And calling us pathetic..

All you're doing now is searching through my posts for ANY EXCUSE to find fault with me to TRY to justify a means and/or reason to continue in your own insanity fostered by your own greed and BITMAIN's ILLUSION.  Plain and simple.

If you want to be "pathetic" then so be it.  If it makes you FEEL better for someone to pamper you, hold you and be gentle with you, you've come to the wrong place, dude.

You started it

IF that's what you think, then I'll finish it.

IGNORED>>>

I'm NOT going to get involved in another shouting match.

Capitalism versus community. Wouldn't normally count for much except many of these coins claim to be community coins. Now it's time to hold dev teams to the promises they made when they wrote "asic resistant".

Bitmain has the money and the hashrate, but the community provides credibility. Take that away and the coin fails. Doesn't matter how many asics secure the network if nobody believes in the coin.

Delenda est Zcash.

SPOKEN LIKE A CHAMP!!!

THANKS FOR THE EXCELLENT QUOTE AND IT EARNS YOU +1 MERIT FROM ME.

Easy to be one sided when you havent made a single profit personally on an asic since 2015. You seem to have a lot invested in gpus. Id be worried too, but not ignorant.

I unignored you to see if MAYBE your next reply would be an apology.  Apparently not...

Instead, you want to get involved in a shout match and make false accusations.

You ASSUME I made no profit with my ASIC's of old when I actually did.  Barely... But I did...

Now, I'll actually ignore you for 24 hours to give you time to think logically without emotions clouding your mind then unignore you to see if you have come to your senses.

And honestly, you really are acting PATHETIC right now.  

24 hour ignore implemented after this post.  06:29:14 AM, Wednesday, May 23, 2018 is 24h.

Lol couldnt help yaself

You barely made a profit you say, that will leave me with a bias too, how many u buy again.. oh dam. Well sorry to hear that , theres my sorry.

Here's a PRIME example of someone who's emotions is inhibiting their reasoning abilities.  I too have been guilty of this before when I believed in BITMAIN'S grand illusion.

I mentioned in a post earlier [That he or she may or may not have read] "Most all my GPU's have ROI'ed 3 times over.  I began buying a lot of GPU's in May, 2016 and have mined with them consistently since then.  I could sell all of my hardware for GPU mining right now and add another $85,000 easily to my bank roll.  EASILY.... And that's being conservative.

Now I'm the one who's supposed to be worried?  And another thing.  This guy has no idea I'm a professional trader and make additional revenue from my trading profession.

Most importantly, this guy or gal doesn't understand this "IS" about community and consensus.  I'm here partly to fight for GPU's to remain and ASIC's to be RESISTED as promised by several privacy Equihash coins.  I'm also here to hopefully open peoples eyes to the fact "we should come together as a community to promote what is best coin(s) for humanity in regards to currency, privacy, freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny."  Which is in my signature box below.

So, bottom line:  They seem more inclined to be controlled by their emotions rather than the other way around.

I've had to learn the hard way it takes two to reason things out when there's division or confusion.

I think ASICs could work if there is more competition in the market and no monopoly of single company. Another problem is there retail availabilty and pre mining which could be solved if competition increases. Intel only bought good processors for cheap when AMD bought them in the market first. Competition solves many problem and it is necessary for healthy working of capitalism.

But crony capitalist CCP and Bitmain won't allow that to happen. You can't even open a ASIC company in china. Bitmain has all the cards, they control the whole game. SIA founder tried to open a ASIC company in China and lost million dollars due Bitmain's tactics not allowing him to open the company.

We shouldn't let such (or any) company and govt. control the entire ecosystem. Instead of thinking about small personal profit one should think about the big picture but that is the job of the devs as we can't trust the community to act responsibly. The average miner doesn't care about decentralisation or cryptocurrencies, all he cares about is how to get maximum capital gains in least amount of time. One should not hope that one day the community will take the red pill. Only support coins that are against ASICs.

ASICs are still necessary because they lead to more advancement in stronger asic-resistant coin. The problem with majority is that they think if an ASIC has been made for asic-resistant algo then gpu mining is dead. They only look at one side. When powerful missiles came, tank's armour became more thicker and stronger. None of that has stopped to this day. More powerful missiles come with more powerful tank armour. One will come before another. Similarly if there are more powerful ASICs now there will be more powerful ASIC resistant algo in future. No antivirus is virus-proof forever, they keep updating to protect the computer. Same with asic-resistant algos.

Arguing with that retard is like arguing with full-on creationism believer. Or with that other retard in flat earth topic. Guy has no idea what's what. ROFL @ "my friend has" gtfo imbecile

As I've mentioned in previous posts:  "IF" ASIC's could meet those [And other requirements I've mentioned in previous posts], I would be FINE with them."  At this current time... It's a NO for me.  Those criteria are not currently met and may never be.  Time will tell.

Some see ASIC's as a necessary evil.  "Necessary," because of "so-called" security of the network.  "Evil," because of not meeting the requirements I have mentioned in several posts.

This falls pretty much into the same category as FREEDOM.  In what way?  If one decides they will give up some freedom for the sake of some security, they deserve and will get NEITHER!!! - Similar to Benjamin Franklin's quote: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Something wrong with having a friend with S9's and L3's you visit and talk to from time to time?

Something wrong when visiting to see if anything substantially different between the S7 and S9 when talking and/or visiting him?

Do people on bitcoin talk not have friends and/or acquaintances within bitcoin talk who provide information about different hardware?  

Do you not discuss this hardware with one another all the time if an issue should arise, etc...?

Is there something so different between the S7 and S9 that I'm at a total loss and it makes me an "imbecile?"  Am I missing something, other than asking you to look in a mirror?  I think not, and your continued name calling earns you nothing but less respect from those in the community who visit this thread.

I disagree...

We need both miners and developers to keep each other in check.

Check for what?

"...to promote best coin(s) for humanity in regards to decentralized currency, privacy, freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny."

You are talking like a idealist not realist. It does not matter if ASICs are necessary or not, the thing is that they exist they are here to stay and we have to deal with them.
And yes, hurdles like ASICs are necessary for the development of cryptocurrencies. This is how it works everywhere in nature. ASIC resistant algos exists because ASICs exists. More smart ASICs will only lead to more robust asic resistant algos.

You are saying that we need both miner and devs to keep check on each other but what we "need" doesn't = what we get.Yes awarness is necessary in the community but the fact is majority of miners (95%+) ONLY mine for capital gains without caring about decentralisation or humanity, just have a look at ASICs sale.

Yes i contradicted myself by saying that it is job of devs to be responsible (only possible in ideal world) but even if the community abandons use of ASICs that won't stop Bitmain from manufacturing them. There is already enough money in mining from their own miners. ASICs are a reality we have to accept. Only solution is to completely abandon the coin which doesn't use latest asic resistant algo (again only possible in ideal world).
The best we can do is launch an aggressive assault against pro asic coins on forums. It is the duty of High merit members (like you) who have taken red pill to speak against these coins on that coin's forum.

I do believe that ASICs are on the losing team in long run.

If for no other reason than they will eventually fall foul of environmental legislation. The colossal waste of power is already ridiculous and neither governments nor conscientious people will leave such an easy target alone.

ASICs are so much more efficient than GPUs

Take the new Z9 for example - 300W / 10,000sols  33,3sols/W
I have currently garage full of 1080ti-s - the most i get out of those is 4.1sols/W

Sure, you can tell that to developers who actually give a damn and they'll tell you, "Take a hike."

So, you're basically saying, "Lay down on the floor and take it up the..."

We have a real smart one here, fellas.  ROFL...  He wants to be a follower and not a leader.  This newbie has no clue...  He's admittedly saying he cares about a buck and not the best good of humanity.

ROFL...

Welcome to PROG Proof of Work:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8)

It's software development like PROG that will make a difference for several years [Possibly permanent because of the "mapping"].  But what do you care?  You're a follower heading towards a cliff.  

You make statements off the cuff like you know what the hell you're talking about and not really thinking about how it makes you appear to the reader.  The appearance is, "Lets make a buck and damn humanity."

Believe me when I say, I have "ideals" (Principles).  If we don't have "principles" (guidance) to stand on with a project, what's the point of getting involved with a project.  Since you've made it quite clear with your statements that all you care about is making a buck, it's also clear you have no "principles."  It's damn decentralized currency that promotes privacy, freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny.  Just give me my money!  I'll leave "principles" to everyone else who gives a damn about the best good of humanity.

ROFL...

Sure, abandon "principles" you state in you reply for a buck?

Nice work, Player.  True gangsta...

Geeeeeeeez

What logic you have there, padawon.  lol

You know full well what most miners will do with the extra watts available for Z9 that would have been used for 1080 ti, don't you?  They're going to add more Z9's.  Then what?  All you have to claim is, NETWORK MORE SECURE fellas.

All while "centralized" BITMAIN is increasing the difficulty on all of you WHILE ALSO manipulating the price in exchanges because they hold majority control over mining in their own farms.

What your propagating is BITMAIN's grand illusion.

Yeah but most newbies are simply proxy accounts for asic agenda

so while you are ripping him by simply pointing out the truth  another back a mole will pop out.

Bitmain is simply really big and can go after coins with no consequences to itself.

They are a big business looking to accumulate much wealth as they can.

I hang in there and do a little here and there but the truth is they will not be stopped at my level.
FPGAS are not the answer

Maybe a new way to spend gpu hash is needed.  Not so much for me or you but for the sake of AMD and NVIDIA

I will continue to mine with my few gpus and see what happens next I did cash a lot of cards out.

Just going to sit and see what zcash does.

Agreed...


I'm "ripping" for those who aren't "proxy accounts" who are doing research and trying to learn about crypto.  Some may think it's a lost cause.  I'm sorry, but I don't.


Agreed.  The fact that you and I are talking about it now in this thread is a benefit for those [Who are not BITMAIN proxy's] trying to learn.  I simply moderate the proxies and/or those addicted to BITMAIN's illusion.


Agreed...  I have no problem with that if the best good for humanity was at heart but it's obviously not.


I agree! "Won't be stopped at our level."  Simply trying to get more on board with what's best for humanity by educating.  Which will hopefully wake up some of them and encourage them to join a project that actually gives a damn about humanity.  I believe ZEN is that project.  My opinion...  I"m still doing research on ZEN but it looks like it fits the bill.

Do you have a discussion going with FPGA's, Phil?  If so, link?


Hmmmmmm, sounds interesting.  Any ideas of how to spend it?


I'm kind of straddling the fence at the moment as to whether I should sell some or all of my GPU's yet.  Haven't decided.  It's about to get rough for the GPU miner for sure.

Thanks for chiming in and sharing your opinion, Phil.  You're a respected member of the community.  I took a break from bitcoin talk for a while to educate myself with trading.  I'm back now and BOY things have changed in the short time I was away from here [since the Bitmain S7].

Hopefully, those who visit this thread [who are not Bitmain proxies] might "reason" things out (think logically) and say, "Maybe these two [Who've been around a while] actually know what they're talking about and listen.

Good day, Phil.

Again you talk like communists who talks about an ideal world with ideal human beings while completely rejecting the ground realities. It does not matter if I mine for profit or humanity, it's not about you or me, I am talking about community as a whole and my statement holds true even IF I mined for profit only, my mining objective doesn't matter, my statement is true. Peoples lie, maths don't. Now you tell me straight forward do you think that majority of miners mine for good of humanity and not for profit. I am talking about ground realities. You are feeling hostile and now making personal attacks but that's doesn't make you right.

I am not saying that we can't do anything and just surrender to Bitmain. But then there is not much we can do right now. You can and you should spread awareness in the community but that won't make much difference to the big picture. These are time of perseverance. Only technological advancements can bring the changes we want and they will happen soon. Too many GPUs floating around so the devs have a niche where they can capitalise. Soon there will be a trend of ASIC resistant coins and I am sure that solution to ASIC theats are already under progress.

Whether or not a miner mines for profit has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not a project, such as ZEN, ZEC, BTG, XMR, etc...  decides to actually DO WHAT IS BEST FOR HUMANITY.  ROFL....

All you're concerned with is profit.  That's it... and you admit it.  You're prerogative...  I too care for profit.  However, unlike you, I ALSO care for a coin/project that's a viable alternative to FIAT to help humanity in regards to decentralized currency, privacy, freedom of speech and freedom from tyranny.

You keep contradicting yourself.  On one hand you say, not surrender then you say, "not much we can do right now."  Note: how you said, "right now" to cover your ass.  BUT while continuing to say afterward "...but that won't make much difference to the big picture, etc... etc... etc..."

So what's the deal?

You come on here ridiculing me for speaking out for a viable coin for humanity and an ASIC Resistant coin being part of the solution for humanity.  While at the same time admitting yourself in this quote I made of yours that something needs to be done.

Are you bi-polar or something?

I'm doing as you said, "Don't surrender."  Then, you come on here ridiculing me for voicing my opinions and "NOT SURRENDERING."   ROFL....

Why are you taking this personally and boasting about your mining ideals, does that makes you feel good ? This is not about you and me. Neither you know my motivation for mining.
First you were talking about community & miners and now you are talking about the project & devs, those are two different things. Are you saying that it is the job of the devs or founders to be responsible for what to do best for humanity ? because it does not matter "Whether or not a miner mines for profit" You assume and blame me for mining for profit but then say that it does not matter  "Whether or not a miner mines for profit". Contradiction.


You were saying that ASICs were not necessary but how is something unnecessary when it was destined to arrive. You can not go back to past and remove ASICS from existing. Everything happens for good in the universe. It was destined to happen. Our present actions are not decided by us but by our destiny. Only because of Cold war man pushed themselves to their extremes and we reached the moon, it had to happen this way only because it was destined to happen this way. ASICs are just a phase of cryptocurrencies that will be gone but it will only help them. There can't be any other way round.

I'll let you ponder your statements and maybe some day [Maybe several years or never] you'll figure it out.  Your mind is biased.

I'm saying Developers make their coin more attractive by bringing about what you see in the bottom signature of all my posts.  As for everything else you said, YOU figure it out.  You're simply too biased and want to try to justify your absurd logic in posts with me.

It's blatantly obvious you're biased.  So obvious, I'm not going to waste my time refuting everything else cause it's that easy for everyone else who understands to read between the lines.  IF someone else were to come on with an unbiased mind and legitimate statements and/or questions, I'll attempt to explain.  As for you, you're simply not worth my time.

I learned a LONG time ago in this industry, "BE CAREFUL OF MAKING FLAT STATEMENTS."  You've made one after the other over and over again.  Are you a developer?  Hell no...  Otherwise, I know for a fact you would not have made the statements you made.

Ignored permanently...

Biased man call others as biased while thinking that they are the awakened one. English is not my first language as you can see so I have some trouble explaining my ideas. Anyway, I am on this forum to understand the psychology of miners due to which I am also mining with few gpu rigs. I am involved with a cryptocurrency project that I think will be revolutionary.

I hope all you GPU users take it up the ass.  ASICs and FPGAs are the way of the future.  Get used to it!

Heard this same thing 14 months ago.. been two all time highs in GPU profitibility since.. made a bunch of $ and cards are all paid off.

What I'm saying is, you're an idiot.

It's the opposite. They are the past not future. Making an algo resistant to FPGAs (economically) is possible.

Do at least some basic research. It is MUCH easier to reprogram a FPGA than forking a coin to counter them.

ASICs are also much more flexible than you imagine, Bitmain can make new ones for any forked algo before they fork it at a marginal cost to themselves.

The ride was nice while it lasted, but GPUs are just too inefficient to compete on current algos with tailored boards. There will probably be a lot of coins that will develop better ASIC resistance in time but the coins with a lot of traction and developing power will embrace more efficient ways of securing their networks.

They are in it for the money, like us and everyone else. Whoever says anything else is your enemy.

Forking is not the only option to FPGA resistance. Another guy told me that with FPGAs your limited with the number of programable gates the silicon has. The more complicated the algorithm the less "cores" you can fit on the die. If someone wanted to create a GPU algorithm that was not as economical on an FPGA, you would make it so each round requires a ridiculous amount of instructions, or have the coin use a large amount of different algorithms which take up precious FPGA space. You then take the advantage away from FPGAs because 1) it would require alot more effort and time to program the FPGA, and 2) you can't fit as many cores on it, so the instead of it being 10x as fast as a GPU, you can only get away with 2-3x with maybe a slight increase in efficiency.

GPU's are becoming more efficient.  However, you're focus is too shallow and doesn't go deep enough.  You say, "Bitmain can make new ones for any forked algo before they fork it at a marginal cost to themselves."  That was at least THIS go around.  Cause so-called "ASIC Resistant coins" dropped the ball on maintaining ASIC Resistance.  It will be different the next time after the FORK(s).

REMINDER:  R&D on a new ASIC for BITMAIN is approximately 6 months.

The good thing accomplished out of all this is finding out which coin(s) had truly supported community (GPU Miners) and which did not.

Can Bitmain make ASIC similar to the AMD GPU, but with more instruction set for mining?

What you're describing is an FPGA.  Even they can be forked out with the proper algo.

With the proper algo, ASIC's can be rendered on an even keel for the most part with GPU's.  Like 1.1 to 1.0 OR 1.2 to 1.0 ratio.  Mainly due to "mapping."

Then it would mean BITMAIN would more or less be replicating GPU's and would have to try to compete in manufacturing costs with AMD, NVIDIA, INTEL, etc... at that point.

Have a look at PROG Proof of Work.  ESPANSE has already said they will use this algo:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8&t=1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8&t=1s)

All GPU miner here since 2013....If only I can put a lot bigger smile in this damn emoticon  ;D

all your GPUs will turn to ASICs when I snap my fingers..

https://cdn3.whatculture.com/images/2014/11/thanos-snaps-his-fingers.jpg

now imagine the world I'm living  :D

the thing is the "crypto sphere" just become bigger..

and ASICs companies want a bigger slice of the cake...FPGAs too

ASIC armies try to say ASICs are the future, dispose your GPUs so they can sell you their shit...business as usual...well my GPUs aren't going anywhere....

....grow a brain folks


personally I want to see an ASIC in person, hold it in my hands, never seen one up close...but will only buy it when ASIC costumers disposed it like trash.....and let it hash to a shitcoin I like hehe

I still wanna see the look on people's faces IF ZEN decides not to fork.

"The ZenCash development team, in collaboration with the community, reserves the right to review and change the decision to Hard Fork, especially if it is determined that changing the Equihash-144-5 algorithm will not be effective in promoting decentralization of mining."

Just put the anti-progress, racist GPU owners who are unwilling to adapt to changes in mining on your ignore list and embrace the future of ASICs and FPGAs.

And another Bitmain proxy shilling the grand illusion.  

Tell me, how are all of you with the L3 doing now?  Hmmmmmm?

Tell me, how are all of you with the S9 doing now?  Hmmmmmm?

Now you want the Z9; thinking it's the future of mining.  Ever heard of this thing that repeating the same thing over and over again while expecting different results equals this thing called, "INSANITY?"

Also, there's ANOTHER division of crypto currency that makes it tick.  It's not hardware developers.  It's called software developers.  One dominant "hardware" manufacturer (BITMAIN) makes another ASIC to sucker everyone into another insane illusion and this guy argues they are the future.  I'm here to tell you "Software Developers" are going to PROVE to you that ASIC's and FPGA's are NOT the "future" of POW crypto currency.  It's software development that will set the precedence.  Software developers will soon put hardware developers in their place and bring them pretty much on an even kill with one another.  Meaning, BITMAIN will be forced to compete in manufacturing costs with AMD, NVIDIA, INTEL, etc... if they want to convince future would be miners to fall for their grand illusion.  BITMAIN, will only be able to make ASIC's that are 1.1 to 1.0 "or" 1.2 to 1.0 [at best] in power efficiency and hash rate with GPU's.

EXAMPLE:  PROG Proof of Work:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8&t (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8&t)

racists? hell yeah!

send those ASICs to concentration camps near cheap source of electricity work their ass off until when the next generation "nm" is released, and then throw those fuckers in mass graves! unlike GPUs they don't deserve a long life, do many coins in their entire life and live around the world inside crypto miners home..

SIEG HEIL! 

I think to need to reread the thread, lol.  Blatant racism abound from certain users.

As for your post, couldn't those of us moving to FPGAs say the same thing about GPUs?  FPGAs can do much more work per watt and are more configurable than GPUs.

I don't understand why people with supposed experience in mining wouldn't be willing to adapt when necessary.

Jihan is that you buddy?

When posting something ignorant, at least try and be original.  You could learn something from arielbit.

Welcome to ignore list.

If there is ever a competing company to bitmain making similar ASICS, would that lighten all yall's hatred towards bitmain?

It just seems inevitable that eventually most POW coins will be dominated by some form of ASIC....

POS just makes more sense to me but I guess that is a separate debate.

They are just jealous of Bitmain's success or butt hurt when they lose GPU ROI or invest in an unprofitable model of ASIC.
You gotta know how to play each algo and adapt accordingly rather than whine like a petulant child.

ZenCash

 
@RolfVersluis
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Replying to @640kilobyte @zencashofficial
95% of my miners are Bitmain ASIC miners.

4:02 AM - 10 May 2018

Go on, go to zencash, my z9s will be waiting there too.

If the PoW is changed, then more people and miners will support it.

With or without a PoW change, there will be more than enough miners.  Why risk a fork to appease GPU owners that only care about protecting their ROI?

Nope, it's just that GPUs are not exploited to their full potential by the blockchain devs. a POW "GPU specific" blockchain could be developped, and no FPGA or ASIC would compete with.

why go through all that trouble when theres something already purpose built for the task, ie FPGA ASIC.

Bitmain's 50 cent army trying to manipulate public opinion by using this forum.

FPGA are the opposite of purpose built devices.

ASICs, due to their price, noise and power requirements are against decentralisation, decentralisation means almost anyone with a computer can mine.

seems like it. 

Very bad anti-asic comment.

To rational people, it seems like GPU-only owners unwilling to adapt are the ones requesting and performing the manipulation.

I can tell you my s9s are still making millions. You and your lil shit GPU farm are nothing, yet you act like you are so great and your shit dont stink. My farm makes more in a week than you have in your entire career with crypto so stop talking like you are something special. You are just another deluded idiot that cant even offer a legit argument to support your wild ass claims.

You are so far up your own ass you cant look at anything objectively and your only response is to just call everyone Bitmain shills or insult their english skills. You are truly a toxic piece of shit, people like you are nothing but poison to the crypto community. There are 15 pages of people pointing out flaws in your arguments and you have done NOTHING to prove anything you say is true.

It's not about ASIC adoption.  It's about giving power, control to one giant.  I also support FPGA mining.
The issue is with the coin that took a stance on ASIC resistance and deviating from it.

There is also a $15k ASIC with 40k sols.  How many can afford it?  Now imagine in future that's the only one that's available.  Who would be able to afford those?

Profiting is the first priority for everyone but let's not give away the control to some corp.  Even GPU mining can lead to centralization but the likelihood of that happening is much lower than with ASICs.

i doubt ZEC will fork. They have so many altcoins and forks that is built on their algorithm and technology. If ZEC forks and the altcoins want to keep their tech, they also need to fork. Its so much god damn work, and in their eyes they think ASICs are decentralized.

Flawed argument. If a coin is only gpu mineable, then you can say same thing that not many can afford $15000 worth gpus. You get what you pay. You pay more you get more. It's simple math. I am gpu mining supporter but that doesn't mean I will support your flawed arguments but I will support any comment (even pro-asic) if it is rational and objective. Seriously some you guys are like religious nuts.
Also FPGAs will share the same fate as ASICs. They are also controlled by only a few corps. supplies are very limited, no retail availabilty and currently no hope for people living out of US/EURO region. Underground mining has been going on for more then year meanwhile still consumer availability of bitstreams is still uncertain. You are complaing about a $15000 ASIC but praising a $6000 FPGA.

Flawded argument, with GPUs you don't have to invest $15K to be able to mine something. As far as I know no FPGA manufacturer compete with its customers.

Flawed you say?  Explain the below to me.

The difference is I can still mine with a $100 or $1k GPU and still have 1/150 th hashrate of the person who holds $15k worth of GPUs. Same doesn't hold for ASICs, if all they have in market is $15k ASIC.

I am not supporting a $6k FPGA, I support the idea of FPGA mining.  There are two major FPGA mfg and lots of solution providers with custom FPGA boards.
There are also $1k FPGAs and $300 FPGAs being discussed in that thread.

I MAKE MILIONS LISTEN TO ME GUYS I AM VERY SMART.

I am really happy for You, if You are "making millions" with Your S9s. Good for You. Income for one S9i (14THs), today, after power consumption deduction is less than 3 USD. To making millions with this profitabiltiy You has to have over 10000 miners. In such situation You will not have time to write here.

The logic of Bitmain is simple. They are making "Money machine". Think, if You can produce a "money machine" would You sell it to everyone or use it exclusively for Yourself? If You need a fresh money for future investments, You will easily found the investors who will invest in such project of "money machine".
There is no sense to sell "money machine" until You see "dark clouds on horizon". That is the time when Bitmain start selling of old units and start overproduction to make income again, and destroy the algo profitability. They did it with D3, L3, X3.

Fortunately, more and more buyers recognize that business model, and realize that they will never return investment...
For example, X3 for Cryptonight coins, Bitmain and "company" mined in secret since December, and totaly destroy the profitability. They announce the miner after they "smell" the first ASIC resistant fork. Interesting is that 4 producers announce the Cryptonight miner almost the same day.
Community resists, and almost all coins forked to ASIC resistant algos variant. ETN, the last "big" CN coin, will fork next week, and the ROI will be very, very long for X3.
Probably We will see the same situation with Z9.

X3 owners are still making over $20/day.

Batch 1 owners are very happy.

Neither you need to invest $15k to mine using asic. There are cheaper too which cost same as a 1050ti. Those FPGA companies won't tell you personally that they started mining with the boards that they are selling you. If you support FPGA, you support ASICs.

Have you lost touch with reality ? You are only Anti-asic because they hurt your gpu earnings and now you think you can get early on the FPGA train, so you support them. Not support the idea of $6k FPGA but support FPGA mining. Yeah keep contradicting yourself. If there are $1k fpga then I can say that there are also $50 asics. You are only going get money depending on your investment. You buy small you get small. FPGA are same as ASICs. No retail availabilty, only two manufacturers, currently no hope for people out of US/Euro region, will reduce gpu earning even more, very few in stocks. You hate the idea of Bitmain pre mining with asics but support the underground mining with FPGAs that has been going on for more then year meanwhile you still have not got a taste of them yet.

Watch developers "adapt" with a PoW algorithm change.  Let's see how you adapt with those Z9's.

Meet PROG PoW:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8&t=3s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6B-ZCyP6K8&t=3s)

I agree with you there after I did more research and considered other opinions.

I support FPGA mining not cause I can jump early on it (I am a small scale miner and I can barely afford one $6k FPGA).  
Heck, I could've even jumped on these ASICs.  I knew about them and could've ordered in the first batches itself.

FPGAs are much more power efficient and may or may not be faster than a GPU (price to performance ratio).
People who own mining farms would be interested in getting 1k of these instead of 10k GPUs.  In case of FPGAs there can always be some xyz person who can bring out custom implementations (binaries) which perform better than competitors.  The cost involved is much lower than a competitor who has to compete against a giant and manufacture a better ASIC.  
FPGA mfg are two (Xilinx and Intel/Altera) and they are not mining crypto with their FPGAs.  They have a much larger customer base to meet their targets just like for NVIDIA/AMD crypto is not the bread and butter.

The problem with ASIC is one entity is producing, mining and selling them.  It's not the ASIC itself but this particular entity.
If I was a money printing machine manufacturer and that's the only thing I do why or when should I sell it to others?

Yeah keep repeating SIA founder's words. Everyone have read that article. You blame bitmain but protect underground FPGA mining. Yeah no word on that. That's been going on for quite some time. What about their retail availabilty ? Are they available for sale as gpu are ? No, only big guys with big money will benefit from them. You must be blind as a bat if you can't see this as a small scale miner. They are more powerful and more scalable so farms will be even more powerful and efficient. Meanwhile they are available to only handful of people. Just have a look around. You are waiting for some guy on the internet who might deliver them to you. Some middle man. Power in the hands of only few here. What's stopping them from mining with those FPGA's before delivering them to you ? Meanwhile the big guy are already mining with them for more then year and the big guy who missed out before will now be the first one to get their hands on them, then only you will probably get one delivered to you. It's the same as ASICs, once every big guy has eaten the meat, then they will throw the bone to you and you will be excited like a dog. When I first heard about them I was also excited but the more research I did about them, the more I found bad about them. You should change your mind too, just think about it, I was also thinking like you earlier.

I am not protecting any underground FPGA mining.  Just like mining software for GPU, FPGAs are reconfigurable so there can be someone skilled that can make their own implementations that can outperform someone else's.

Underground mining can't be avoided.  That's going to be the situation in every case.  People can be crippled by GPU mining too.  If there were only mining software that charged 25% dev fees (there's one dev who was going to release a miner to public only if people agreed to this 25%).

There are more players here in play in case of FPGA over ASICs,
Xilinx/Intel makes FPGA,
AVNET/Digilent/Xilinx/Altera-Intel/Micron etc. make the custom FPGA solution boards
Implementations/binaries by someone skilled in HW description language, just like any GPU mining software developer.
Chances of competition is higher compared to just few ASIC mfgs (who might just kicked out by the big one) out there who control everything; too much control in hands of one entity.

What's your point?   People with better skill sets,  more money and/or better connections get things first.   That's natural.

The point is they pretend to be manufacturer, they are much more mining for themselves.
They compete against their customers, by selling them the N-1 generation ASICs and mine with the N generation.
They sell as brand new their used miners.
They don't apply legal warranties (eg EU: 2 years), therefore they don't refund broken items.
They don't respect shipping schedule, coz they mine in the meantime.

I don't mind about companies mining with ASICs or FPGA only for themselves, as long as they don't scam others.

Actually  sia developers were absolute morons.

Here is why if they could build an asic it meant anyone else could do it.

So they gambled lost and now cry like a baby.

All the effort they wasted could have been spent making a more secure al-gore-rythm.

Basically, that article is touted bandaid for their own ASIC; Obelisk?

Xilinx has partnered with Bitmain. You were saying something.

They are using FPGA SoC as host processor. (already there on whatever latest offerings are by BITMAIN) just like GPU mining rigs are using intel/AMD.  Bitmain is just another customer for Xilinx. Xilinx themselves are not making mining machines.  i rest my case.  Bitmain is making, using and selling; too much control with one corp.

But who is selling ? Xilinx is. They will also sell their latest processors so that Bitmain can mine with it. Now it will be Bitmain selling and controlling FPGAs.

I just want to say I feel pretty deceived and betrayed by Zcashco.


Seems like the thing to do would be to change the Equihash parameters which are known to be unnecessarily friendly towards ASIC design and find a research group to see the long term effects ASCIS have on cryptos.


Look at Dash - coin is dead. Unless you have sub $.05 per kWh you are in the red before facilities.

I was soooooooo into zec! But suddenly appears Winzec DEV's hysterical extortion ("gimme more or wallet goes down!" :o ), no anti-ASIC actions from coin devs then ...
IDK if they will fork or not. But right now it looks like ZEC DEVs betrayed own community for Bitmain (and self) profit.

ASICs are dead end: diff rises constantly (so — talking about private miners — no one'll earn much more than need to pay off it's cost and no one will buy your ASICs after), no one will win except ASICs manufacturer (Bitmain mines with new devices BEFORE sell).
At that dead end only big companies with 1000..'th of ASICs will stand, all others will fall off (centralization as it is). They will own ZEC, rule ZEC, manipulate price and so on.

Decentralization, money that you can produce by your own IS THE MEANING OF CRYPTO. And ZEC lost it by now.


P.S.
despite all that... still hope :-\

Just because mining is not profitable for you doesn't mean the coin is dead. It is still sitting at #14.

#20. #14 is twice as big as zshit.

You misunderstood. I was talking about dash.

Fuck Zooko and ZEC ......

+1 Merit